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Thoughts about Avernum 6?


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There is a demon chained to a volcano (I think he's the one between Almaria and the Tower of Magi) who is a former lieutenant of Grah-Hoth, imprisoned by Grah-Hoth because he rebelled against him. I don't remember if it uses the word "lieutenant" specifically, though. I *think* that's E/A 1.

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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

I don't think christian symbols should be a part of Avernum. And how the hell are you supposed to fight an all-poweful god anyway? Though I really, really miss the "good vs bad"-feeling of A1+A2, bringing in angels and stuff like that would be overkill.


Just having some fun--I'm a Satanist, remember? As for how one could kill a god, I remember someone posting, in response to a remark I made about religious blather in Final Fantasy IV, that the aforementioned FFIV was nothing compared to a lot of Japanese RPGs where you end up killing God in the end. Seeming Japanese might help get more people to buy Spiderweb's games (it certainly works for cars.)
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You're jiggling a little too much with the term "god" here.

Japanese "gods" aren't anything like the christian or muslim "god". They're spirits, nothing more. No all-powerfulness, no nothing. And they can be killed, even in japanese mythology.

As little are characters gods or semi-gods, just because they're good at fighting. Where's the logic in that?

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There are really only a handful of religions that have big-G God, and all of them trace their descent back to Judaism. Hinduism is monotheistic, sometimes and sort of, but it's really not the same. I'm unfamiliar with Sikhism, but I get the sense that it stands somewhere between Hinduism and the Abrahamic religions on the issue.

 

This omnipotent God is in the distinct minority. Even if you count each pantheon as one, there are still far more polytheistic setups out there than monotheistic ones.

 

—Alorael, who should also point out that these polytheistic religions are not the only ones in which God can die. There's a fairly major religion you're probably quite familiar with in which God dies.

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Originally Posted By: CATGUTpuAG
There are really only a handful of religions that have big-G God, and all of them trace their descent back to Judaism. Hinduism is monotheistic, sometimes and sort of, but it's really not the same. I'm unfamiliar with Sikhism, but I get the sense that it stands somewhere between Hinduism and the Abrahamic religions on the issue.

This omnipotent God is in the distinct minority. Even if you count each pantheon as one, there are still far more polytheistic setups out there than monotheistic ones.

—Alorael, who should also point out that these polytheistic religions are not the only ones in which God can die. There's a fairly major religion you're probably quite familiar with in which God dies.


There's some evidence that Judaism, and therefore all Abrahamic religions, trace their ancestry back to Zoroastrianism. But that's not certain.

Sikhism is strictly monotheistic.
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What is this evidence? I'm curious. From what I remember reading about Zoroastrianism, it is dualistic, with one good and one evil power locked in eternal conflict. (Or rather it was, since I believe the religion survives now only in the small and shrinking Pharsee community in India.)

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
What is this evidence? I'm curious. From what I remember reading about Zoroastrianism, it is dualistic, with one good and one evil power locked in eternal conflict. (Or rather it was, since I believe the religion survives now only in the small and shrinking Pharsee community in India.)


Monotheism is a hard concept to pin down, because monotheistic religions aren't all monotheistic in the same way. Christianity is not strictly monotheistic in the same way that Judaism and Islam are, because of the Trinity. In Zoroastrianism, there is an evil power, but it is a creation of the one supreme god, presumably in the same way that Satan is a creation of God in Judaism and Christianity.

In Zoroastrianism there is a concept of beings who are emanations -- "sparks" -- from the supreme god, which is found in altered form in Judaism, especially in Kabbalistic practice.

There are also similar scriptural narratives in Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity, with a savior, a virgin birth, and a final judgment.

The adherents of a religion might maintain that their religion is revealed by a divine power, but to my way of thinking all religions are influenced by earlier religions. Sikhism, for example, is a synthesis of Islam (monotheism) and Hinduism (rebirth), with distinct features that originated with the founder of the religion (gender equality).
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Though there's a lot I'd like to reply to the last few postings, I'll cut it to just one comment: monotheism and polytheism started going separate ways when "Enuma elis" was invented in Babylon in the 8th century BC. Looking into the Marduk-cult is sure to bring you a better understanding of the religions that evolved later in the surrounding area.

 

However. Why are we discussing this here, anyway? I don't think Jeff would go like "Hm, I think I'll make god the last boss in A6... but oh no, wait! The christian god is actually a trinity,* and I already had a splitting boss in A5! Oh gosh, if I only knew a religion who's god is a purely monotheistic one! Maybe I can find something about that in the boards..."

 

 

* Or however you would phrase that.

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Well, there's a fair chance for anything to be influenced at least a bit by anything that came before it. Which way an influence goes, however, can be very hard to pin down. I'd be quite surprised if we had any really ancient Zoroastrian manuscripts. A quick look online turns up claims that the oldest ones available are several centuries after Christianity had spread all over the Roman empire. Maybe that's wrong, but I'd be surprised, because there aren't so many really ancient documents of any kind.

 

In other words, it seems quite possible that what really happened is that late Zoroastrianism imported some stuff from Christianity and Judaism. It's a tough call, given the scanty evidence for anything way back then.

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
Well, there's a fair chance for anything to be influenced at least a bit by anything that came before it. Which way an influence goes, however, can be very hard to pin down. I'd be quite surprised if we had any really ancient Zoroastrian manuscripts. A quick look online turns up claims that the oldest ones available are several centuries after Christianity had spread all over the Roman empire. Maybe that's wrong, but I'd be surprised, because there aren't so many really ancient documents of any kind.

In other words, it seems quite possible that what really happened is that late Zoroastrianism imported some stuff from Christianity and Judaism. It's a tough call, given the scanty evidence for anything way back then.


True, it could have gone in either direction, although I've never heard it that way. My personal opinion is that it's to be expected that similar ideas would appear in multiple religions simply because they are all invented by human brains, all of which are wired similarly, and in human societies, all of which have similar needs for social cohesion, ways of thinking about nature, etc.
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All this talk of God, god, gods, and what have ye is interesting; however, I live with a philosophy/religious studies grad student, so I am kinda' burnt out on the whole discussion of the origin of "God". I would say that it would be pretty sweet if A6 had at least one large area where our tireless adventurers must vanquish a seemingly endless horde of feisty demons. Bringing Demonslayer into A4 made my week, and the bonuses (not to mention needing only one hand to wield it) made the quest for acquisition worthwhile. One idea I have been kicking around for plot involves the Giant Friendly Talking Spiders. They have been the staple of the Spiderweb since E1. Why not bring them into the mix, on a grand scale? "Everything is dying. The glowing fungus dims. Only the Friendly Spiders do not seem affected." Kinda' ridiculous, but it could be fun. Or maybe start in the final stronghold from A5, and destroy the bridge. The only place to go is the Tower of Magi, through a portal. Open up the classic map from A1, A2, and A4; then toss in some surface areas. Sunlight would be cool. Maybe make Erika into a lich, and let her wreak havoc. The "history" of Avernum is expansive. If this is to be the final installment, I want all the stops pulled out. Bigger. Badder. More loot. More choices. I like A5, fundamentally speaking. I just want more.

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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
Though there's a lot I'd like to reply to the last few postings, I'll cut it to just one comment: monotheism and polytheism started going separate ways when "Enuma elis" was invented in Babylon in the 8th century BC. Looking into the Marduk-cult is sure to bring you a better understanding of the religions that evolved later in the surrounding area.

This is a bit misleading. The "Enuma elish" is a Babylonian creation myth that tends to be dated to various times in the 2nd millenium BCE -- not the 8th century. (Although the copy we have dates to the 7th century BCE, its older provenance is clear not just from cultural and political references but from the fact that it was written in Old Babylonian.)

The "Enuma elish" is indeed an example of a myth adapated to the cult of a particular god, in this case Marduk; but there is nothing really unusual about that, as cities in Mesopotamia took on individual patron gods from the very beginning. And there is nothing even remotely monotheistic about it. The story itself is analogous in this regard to Greek mythology from Uranus to Zeus, if that gives anyone a better idea.

I have heard it argued that this culture of city patron gods led to monotheistic Judaism quite simply, as one group of people went from having a patron god, to claiming their god was above all other gods, to claiming their god was the only true god. This makes sense, but as far as I can tell it's just a reasonable possibility and not something there is any real evidence for.
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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

However. Why are we discussing this here, anyway? I don't think Jeff would go like "Hm, I think I'll make god the last boss in A6... but oh no, wait! The christian god is actually a trinity,* and I already had a splitting boss in A5! Oh gosh, if I only knew a religion who's god is a purely monotheistic one! Maybe I can find something about that in the boards..."

* Or however you would phrase that.


none of enemies has been from heaven as far as i remember, only sorta religious enemies have been all those demons we have smashed so fighting against angels would be new idea.

Originally Posted By: jORDO
I would say that it would be pretty sweet if A6 had at least one large area where our tireless adventurers must vanquish a seemingly endless horde of feisty demons. Bringing Demonslayer into A4 made my week, and the bonuses (not to mention needing only one hand to wield it) made the quest for acquisition worthwhile. One idea I have been kicking around for plot involves the Giant Friendly Talking Spiders. They have been the staple of the Spiderweb since E1. Why not bring them into the mix, on a grand scale? "Everything is dying. The glowing fungus dims. Only the Friendly Spiders do not seem affected." Kinda' ridiculous, but it could be fun. Or maybe start in the final stronghold from A5, and destroy the bridge. The only place to go is the Tower of Magi, through a portal. Open up the classic map from A1, A2, and A4; then toss in some surface areas. Sunlight would be cool. Maybe make Erika into a lich, and let her wreak havoc. The "history" of Avernum is expansive. If this is to be the final installment, I want all the stops pulled out. Bigger. Badder. More loot. More choices. I like A5, fundamentally speaking. I just want more.


somehow i doubt 6th avernum will be last since alot storylines can be invented which happen in future or between previous avernums.
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I have actually liked the somewhat-criticized in this forum idea of being able to become a new king/emperor in the end of the game, unlike the single non-satisfying choice offered by A5. After all, isn't Dorikas' own story quite similar - becoming the emperor from a simple soldier of the empire?

 

Another unrealistic hope is to participate at a fight between two real armies, say 100-200 fighters on each side, with the hope that your own minor contribution can make a difference in the overall outcome. (But I know this is impossible for many reasons...)

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What does everyone think about being able to take sides? Avernum 5 opened up being on the side of the Empire. It would be cool if you could A. Choose which side you were on at the beginning (like Nethergate, though I have yet to really play it through). or B. Choices you make along the way build up to your final allegiance.

Another idea I have been kicking around: What if you could own, or lease, production areas (i.e. fine steel mines, fine leather lizard plantations, etc.) for most, if not all, construction items. Demon bile would be one of the difficult ones to work in, but the rest could be worked in. Say you have to wait 500 turns (or a suitable amount of time) to re-up the supply at each respective "plant".

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Regardless, I just hope we get to still be Imperial soilders. The new aspect was really cool. I also think it will be the Dorikas ending. A new war starts and your sent down to fight the avernites. As you see the carnage though, you change sides(optional) and help the Avernites deafet the Empire once and for all. Sort of a mix of A1 and A2 with the A5 viewpoint.

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Originally Posted By: Eigenvalue

Another unrealistic hope is to participate at a fight between two real armies, say 100-200 fighters on each side,


Great idea. Very tasty thing.
It would be one or two shot wars, time-linked. Prepared you or not - war will begining (may be you will be forced teleported on field of battle).
For begining, 50x50 soldiers.
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I don't know.... There're other games for war-play and war strategy, and I'm not sure I want to see Avernum start shifting toward that category.

 

Let's stick with the lone adventurer in a lonely world, eh?

 

But... I do agree with Earth: No more lava blisters! Those things are truly annoying.

 

(Although not as annoying, I think, as Geneforge's hot labs.)

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Originally Posted By: Evnissyen
I don't know.... There're other games for war-play and war strategy, and I'm not sure I want to see Avernum start shifting toward that category.


I agree. But it make me laught then full armed party cleanup few monsters. From Exile 3 i never used my party for full exhaustion. So power's gain is needed for that?

I killed Dorikas in A5 with firebolt, smite and may be unshackle mind few times.

But it was more interesting to fight with splitting monsters - one was splitted into 30 - with aura of flames, for example : )

I like rpg and quests very much, but sometime in gameplay i need big shaking.

A5 was the slow. Game was very logical and sequented.
And at the end in general has stopped...

All was tranquil.
Practically there were no surprising moments. Even treachery of a Cienna for some reason has not surprised me...

There were no turning-points. I needed to get from A to B.
And i did it...

The same exile 3 - cities collapsed eventually, in middle of game was destroyed tower of magi, later i bought own castle, then much golems suddenly attacked city etc.
It was quest and rpg with adrenaline!
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It seems that a lot of people didn't like the extended mass assaults that you had to plow through in two particular parts of the game... but those were my favorite parts. Particularly the Howling Depths, where you couldn't just back up and go to the portal to freshen up; you were constantly being pushed from behind while being assaulted by force after force of Dorikas' men. It was fun.

 

I do like the splitting monsters, also... except for one of the splitting slimes that was especially hard for no good reason (I don't think it was guarding anything important, if I remember correctly).

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Getting back on topic, I found A4 & A5 to be somewhat linear, and they felt somewhat on the short side. I guess it's because the map seems a lot smaller with the no inside/outside thing. Perhaps Jeff can combine the A4 & A5 maps and add new areas? I'd also like to see a game where you're switching between Avernum and the surface.

 

Spells I'd like to see back from Exile are the afore-mentioned Mass Haste, and the priest Move Mountains(?) spell. That was fun - see a bit of crumbling wall, and cast Move Mountains to see if there was anything interesting behind it. Probably make it higher level though - it used to be fun to scavenge through cleaned up lower level dungeons to see what had been missed.

 

The other spell I miss is the Map spell - have I missed any secret rooms/areas? Reintroducing those spells would, I think, help with the linearity problem - there's an area of the dungeon that can't be visited until you have Move Mountains - at the moment, it's clean out a dungeon and never go back unless you need to make a trip back to finish porting out the loot. With re-visiting dungeons, there's the option for a new set of bad guys to have moved into the area (bit like the portal shades quests).

 

I agree - bring back Demonslayer, and what ever happened to the Orb of Thralni? Memories of going round the coastline on the surface seeing if there were any islands I could reach before I drowned... Reaching pillars in chasms for otherwise inaccessible items.

 

Loot - I'm happy with not selling every last potted plant for 1 gold, but I'd like to see more being done with low value/worthless items. Vera's quest in A5 is a good start - perhaps more jobs along the lines of 'The mayor of X is redecorating - bring her 3 sets of tools, 10 rolls of cloth and 5 pot plants & 5 vases' or 'The innkeeper of Y needs more crockery & cutlery'.

 

Storage - I'd like there to be a better way of storing loot - at the moment it's being piled up in the transporter chamber (and I swear there's a limit to how much you can stash - when I get to Melanchion's fortress, stuff seems to disappear, especially my crystals). Perhaps 3 or 4 rooms dotted about with empty crates - one for armour, one for weapons etc?

 

Jobs - I'd like to see more branches on the job boards - i.e. do one job, another appears. There's a start being made, but at the moment it seems you walk into town, and what's on the board is all. I did like the courier office idea in A3 - that involved some decisions - I need to go to X, are there any good courier jobs going that way or do I do the high-paying job in the opposite direction?

 

Transporters - please make selecting the transporter destinations keyboardable! It's annoying to have to switch to mouse from keyboard and back again!

 

Items on the floor - can we have a toggle to make them sparkle? I sometimes find it very difficult to spot things (old eyes!) and making them sparkle would be extremely useful. Perhaps along the lines of a cheat code 'twinkletwinkle' or a preferences setting... Herbs on black floors are a particular bugbear of mine.

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Dunno about needless backtracking, the feel I have from A4 & A5 is been there, done that, why do I need to go back again now I've ticked the box? A1-A3 at least you had a bigger map and more choices about what to do next giving the feel of truly exploring a world and seeing what it has to offer. It's not the plot that seems linear; it's the game play in the smaller map.

 

At least make some quests in earlier areas unlock once you're high enough level - or you need to have done something further on to get access to it. As things stand, it's a disconnect to go back to Blackchasm Outpost every so often because there's nothing more to do there except talk to General Manfred. If each time you go back there's something extra to do in the area besides getting another of Lark's quests, then that would open up the game play a bit more.

 

Something along the lines of General Manfred gives you the key to a store room in Inner Blackchasm Outpost the each time you return to talk to him and there's, say, an Officer of the Day in there who also gives a side quest each time. It's really to add more interest when you go back to earlier areas.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? As it is, I can go through A5 in under 30 hours of game play. A3 took me 60+ hours, and that's the sort of thing I'd like back.

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Originally Posted By: maddz
Getting back on topic, I found A4 & A5 to be somewhat linear, and they felt somewhat on the short side. I guess it's because the map seems ....


Yes. I think the same way.

Originally Posted By: maddz

Spells I'd like to see back from Exile are the afore-mentioned Mass Haste, and the priest Move Mountains(?)
...


I too miss Move Mountains. And Orb ... : ) And map seeing... : )


Originally Posted By: maddz

Loot - I'm happy with not selling every last potted plant for 1 gold, but I'd like to see more being done with low value/worthless items.


Yes, agree.

Originally Posted By: maddz

Storage - I'd like there to be a better way of storing....


Your own castle, for example? ; )

Originally Posted By: maddz

Do you see what I'm getting at? As it is, I can go through A5 in under 30 hours of game play. A3 took me 60+ hours, and that's the sort of thing I'd like back.



Yeah! I played Exile 3 with party of six fighters... for a month.

So, is in A4-5 random a wandering dealer on your way with valuable artifacts? I think he's depends on luck parameter... i want more interesting accidents...
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Originally Posted By: maddz
Storage - I'd like there to be a better way of storing loot - at the moment it's being piled up in the transporter chamber (and I swear there's a limit to how much you can stash - when I get to Melanchion's fortress, stuff seems to disappear, especially my crystals). Perhaps 3 or 4 rooms dotted about with empty crates - one for armour, one for weapons etc?


To avoid stuffs loss store weapons at 1 place, armors, cloaks, helmets and shoes to 2nd place, bottles to 3rd place, scrolls to 4th etc so far each others that those lots ain't at pickup area.
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Originally Posted By: maddz

Items on the floor - can we have a toggle to make them sparkle? I sometimes find it very difficult to spot things (old eyes!) and making them sparkle would be extremely useful. Perhaps along the lines of a cheat code 'twinkletwinkle' or a preferences setting... Herbs on black floors are a particular bugbear of mine.


The 'u' command is immensely helpful in this regard!
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Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Jeff's said that all of his future games will be fairly linear because they're much easier to balance that way. Some of your suggestions seem like they'd just create a lot of needless backtracking. I sure wouldn't mind having group haste back, though.


That's a shame.

I liked not being able to just mow through everything in front of me.

I think it was more interesting when you could run into something big and evil and had to come back when you were stronger to defeat it.

It made encounters more meaningful.

As opposed to "here is named character number 5 who takes 3 more hits than a normal monster to kill because hes the next thing to do in the linear plot"

and bring back outdoors!
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Originally Posted By: Thrasher
Originally Posted By: maddz

Items on the floor - can we have a toggle to make them sparkle? I sometimes find it very difficult to spot things (old eyes!) and making them sparkle would be extremely useful. Perhaps along the lines of a cheat code 'twinkletwinkle' or a preferences setting... Herbs on black floors are a particular bugbear of mine.


The 'u' command is immensely helpful in this regard!


No, I'm talking about pick-up not use. The 'u' command doesn't highlight items on the ground for pick up using the 'i' command. As I said, trying to spot things on black floors is a problem with old eyes.
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