Favourite Avernum?

[Ghaldring]

Evnissyen:

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You sound like one of those music fans who get all upset when their favorite artist decides to do something different.

 

This is just unbelievable. Do the misrepresentations never end? Why aren't posters jumping in to condemn such blatant dishonesty?

 

Consider this:

 

- One of my major complaints regarding Avernum 4 is the recycled plot and graphics. In case you're confused, in this context recycled does not = different. Quite the contrary, recycled pretty much means that material from previous games was REUSED.

 

- Consider that my second major complaint is that the Avernum/Exile series should have ended at number 3, instead of beating a dead horse. If I didn't want something different, surely I'd be screaming for more Avernum clones?

 

- I haven't raised any complaints regarding Nethergate or Geneforge, games which are incredibly 'different' from anything preceding them, and which involved technological advances.

 

The above three observations just shoot holes in the accusation that I'm staunchly against 'progress' or 'something different'.

 

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And you still haven't explained why the more modern graphics suddenly became incorrect.

 

Apparently Spiderweb forums is populated by either dishonest or obtuse posters, because I never claimed the above. But wait, it gets better. You then express confusion as to what I mean when I say 'pseudo-3D'. Again I ask: Why didn't you ask for clarification, instead of attacking a stance you couldn't comprehend? Why are you misrepresenting me?

 

As it stands, it doesn't take a genius to at least have some idea as to what is meant by pseudo-3D (or 2.5D) graphics. Pseudo means 'not true' (claiming that pseudo = 'incorrect' is nonsense), suggesting that while the graphics appear to be 3D, they aren't actually 3D. One good definition of pseudo-3D would involve graphics which appear to be 3D, that are restricted to two dimensions. This fits Avernum to a tee, which employs isometric projection at a 45 degree angle.

 

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By the way: You've been sounding a little more than just a bit angry, lately. Maybe you should take a few deep breaths? None of us are out to get you, you know

 

Not so much angry, as frustrated by the obtuseness, either willful or unintended, of several members on this forum. By the way, your childish attempts to provoke are noted, and disregarded. I think you need to realize that an attack against a computer game isn't an attack against you, no matter how much you may enjoy the game.

 

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Perhaps the "Geneforge recycling" accusation

 

Accusation? It's not an 'accusation', it's an observation of fact. Graphics from Geneforge were shamelessly ripped and incorporated into Avernum 4 and 5. And when I [censored] about it, posters engage in ad hominems of 'What, are you afraid of progress/something different?', which is perhaps the most ironical statement ever made on Ironycentral.

 

 

Goldman:

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You're right. The market's, as a whole, and Jeff Vogel's opinions are the only ones that matter. Avernum sells. Avernum IV sells. Avernum V sells.

 

That's the best you've got? To counter, Phantom Menance sold. Checkmate.

[Lilith]

Ghaldring, I'd accuse you of being a poor troll, but judging by the responses you're getting, I guess you're actually doing a pretty good job of it.

[Ghaldring]

How am I a troll? Because I dare challenge the supposed 'consensus' view in a passionate manner?

 

May I remind you that I'm not the one making up BS. I mean, nonsense comments like:

"And you still haven't explained why the more modern graphics suddenly became incorrect."

 

and

 

"Silly Luddite."

 

help me understand exactly why Avernum 4 was so 'popular'. If these are the sort of fans the Avernum sequels attract, then Jeff should cease and desist.

[Wiz]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

.... then Jeff should cease and desist.

I'm sure he was eagerly awaiting your decision on what he should do!

[Sudanna]

That's conceited, you know.

[madrigan]

Avernum 4 was my first SW game. Here is why I love it and why I bought it:

 

1) Epic, intricate plot, all the more interesting to me since I had no idea who Rentar was.

 

2) Functional, pleasant graphics not requiring fancy hardware.

 

3) Extremely open character design.

 

4) Funny dialogue.

 

5) Humongous game world.

 

6) Replayability due to open character design and multitude of hidden maps and items.

 

7) Exciting, Hollywood-dramatic battles, especially the final confrontation with Dorikas and the assault on Hosharr's fort.

 

 

Things I don't like about A4:

 

1) No built-in character editor.

 

2) OMG CHITRACHS EVERY FIVE FEET WHEN WILL IT END

 

3) Fighting your way to the final battle with Rentar can be more dramatic and difficult than the actual battle.

 

 

I think that A4 is a great game, with vastly better interface and graphics compared to the original trilogy. I think A5 is a better designed game, and I like the Battle Disciplines, but it is more linear than A4. A4 is linear, but A5 is sort of obnoxiously linear.

 

 

[Ghaldring]

madigran:

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1) Epic, intricate plot,

 

*sobs*

 

You should try playing Planescape: Torment.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Goldman:

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You're right. The market's, as a whole, and Jeff Vogel's opinions are the only ones that matter. Avernum sells. Avernum IV sells. Avernum V sells.

That's the best you've got? To counter, Phantom Menance sold. Checkmate.

That might be a checkmate if Phantom Menace was a horrible movie. It clearly wasn't the best, but I still enjoyed viewing it.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

madigran:

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1) Epic, intricate plot,

*sobs*

You should try playing Planescape: Torment.

The name alone inclines me against playing it. Is there a Planescape: Easy?

[Alorael at Large]

It's emotional torment, not mechanical. I have a pretty low tolerance for 2nd edition AD&D rules, though. They could carry the name "torment" on their own.

 

—Alorael, who agrees that A4's plot is fine if you haven't played A3. It's just a rehash in a smaller world. On the bright side, the world of A4 is more interesting than that of A3. A3 is set in generic fantasyland.

[Ociporus]

I would say that each game has been "the best" at some point.

The old exile series was captivating. I liked the golems in E3. Getting the trogs & giants to war. Helping old Erica. The quick-fire egg that destroyed an entire building while we ran for our lives.

I was initially disappointed when the exile series basically went through a re-write with Avernum. First disappointment: party size decreased from six to four. However it was fun to re-play the exile series via avernum and I enjoyed some of the improvements in gameplay.

I haven't bothered with the Geneforge series; seemed a bit hokey on my first impression(s) and never got past that. Anyway, this is not the place to comment on that.

I also liked the vast distances between cities, though I must admit getting lost at times. Especially before the notes, I used to have to map out dungeons. I used grid paper for that.

Even though people on this forum don't like the head-banging of finding hidden doors, we all used to enjoy it at the time.

In conclusion, each game as it has come out has compelled me to waste lots of time (invest it?) on the game until I got it done. Late nights. It's not often that I get so into something that I let it deprive me of sleep. I think that's been the experience of lots of you guys (and gals?). What better comment could we make than admitting that the games have been addictive. I've never played any of them twice through, but I have replayed certain parts via the saved games.

The best game? Each one as it has come out!

[Toby-Linn]

I totally agree Ociporus!

 

I enjoy each of the games for various reasons, and definitely will replay them on occasion. I too enjoy the quick fire egg and bringing down the barrier between the giants and the troglos. Also, going after Garzhad in A2 and meeting the Vahnati council for the first time. There are so many great moments in all five of the games.

 

They have cost me lots of sleep as well

 

I think certain people should stop arguing because you can't change someone's mind when it's made up. And what does it matter? We're all different anyways.

 

Just because people like games that others don't like, is no reason to insult anybody.

[Ociporus]

I agree with some posts that A4 had a lot of annoying chitrachs (as have others in the series) and was hack,hack,hack. But the fact is, once all the hacking was done and the game was won, you kinda missed having something to hack at.

[Toby-Linn]

Oh the chitrachs were very annoying....so many of them, I was glad when the Eastern Gallery was finished. And then they were in the Great Cave too!

 

Another annoying part was Rentar Ihrno's fortress and having to avoid all those pylons....I hate pylons

 

And I missed the boats....but I also have lots of fun parts in Avernum 4 as well, I loved having pylon travel for the first time, and it was so cool seeing Motrax's and Khoth's old caves and it was great fighting the shades.

 

I love that part it Almaria where you can't get in and the whole town is hostile and you have to go through the tunnel and sneak past the shade in the town. Also when you bring the crystal box back to Houghton.

[Evnissyen]

I didn't mind all the chitrachs too much, and I liked A4 very much (though not nearly as much as Geneforge 3, and A5 and G4 I also liked better)... what really bugged me was 1. the Honeycomb (I hate mazes) and 2. the whole trek toward Rentar's fortress.... both unmapped and, yes, like Toby-Linn says, guarded by all those annoying pylons.

 

If I might be forgiven, I want to try to clean up the mess that seems to have erupted with Ghaldring's posts and all the responses.... Thinking back, it seems a little confusing to me how this all this stuff can arise from a post that really is very similar to most of the posts on this thread... but it seems what happened was that Ghaldring took offense to some things that maybe he shouldn't have. I mean, first of all: my "Luddite" comment was not meant to be insulting. It was just a playful jab. It was a comment on your attitude, Ghaldring, not a personal attack.

 

Ghaldring:

I think what really ended up bothering me and others was the immaturity and seeming hysteria of your posts. All those scatological references really do not help. Also, honestly, your argumentation is just confusing.

 

To explain:

 

You still haven't made clear why A3's graphics are better than A4's (and Geneforge importation is not an excuse). If you're arguing that isometric projection itself is the definition of "pseudo-3d" then you're suggesting that A1-A3 is also "pseudo-3d". This is of course a valid statement, but if you condemn the games for this alone then you're suggesting that isometric projection is an incorrect approach to game-development, which would be delusional... therefore I'll assume you're not suggesting that. However... if the latter explanation is not the case, then I honestly cannot make sense of your argument. You'll need to be clearer. Sorry.

 

And finally, here's why I don't see the Geneforge "crossover" accusation as valid criticism: When a writer devises a new style: it's only natural that he or she should stick to that style. Even if they write a sequel to a book that employed their earlier style: I do not expect that artist to copy the style of the previous books. That would be silly. Perhaps you're attaching too much importance to the 'game line' notion?

 

Personally, I prefer to think of each game as having its own personality and standing, and not to think that they are all a part of a continuum that clings tenaciously to a single graphical interface and a look and feel that never changes. The way I see it: the only thing that should bind any game series -- like any book or film series -- should be the story. And if the artist has developed a different style that he or she prefers and so wishes to continue using, then by all means let him or her do so. Don't condemn the artist for moving on.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

And finally, here's why I don't see the Geneforge "crossover" accusation as valid criticism: When a writer devises a new style: it's only natural that he or she should stick to that style. Even if they write a sequel to a book that employed their earlier style: I do not expect that artist to copy the style of the previous books. That would be silly. Perhaps you're attaching too much importance to the 'game line' notion?

Well, now, here I'm not so sure I agree with you. If a writer writes both popular crime fiction and highbrow literary novels, it's perfectly reasonable that she maintain two separate styles, one for each genre. A change in her style in one genre might have implications for how she writes in the other, but then again, it might not.

Of course, this is just a quibble over general principle: in the specific case we're talking about, I don't think Geneforge and Avernum are so different that we ought to build a wall between them.

[Ociporus]

Since you mentioned that you replay the game(s), I decided to give A5 another go. Already finished off the rat lord again. Enough time has passed that I can't remember who gives the quest to negotiate with that giant in the cave (with all the goblin servants), since that's what his dialogue seems to suggest. All I know is that I can't sorta "take him out" yet.

 

I would also like to see nicer graphics in the games, but that's not why I play them. It's the adventure. The surprise. Jeff's a really interesting writer, which I appreciate between sword hacks. It might be interesting if there was a bit more drama when, say, a boss says his last words. Maybe a little animation. But it's the imagination where SW games are played.

 

Maybe with A6, and the enlarged windows it promises, the graphics might improve a bit. If anyone's good at graphics, maybe they could pass some samples on to SW. I know I'm not.

 

I see Thuryl's got a neat little dragon as an avatar. Maybe that's a lead for a graphic artist.

 

As a programmer myself, in an entirely different field than Jeff's, I can understand the inclination to include code one's made on one project into another that he's doing. Absolutely reasonable. When you're coding along it's so natural to say to yourself: "Self, you should really grab that code from Project X and plant it right here." If his two projects (A & G) benefit from each other, that's understandable. Even if ones complain about some similarities, there would be others that would bemoan: "If it works like such and such in this series, why not in this one?" For instance, the long-distance walking. I say let him make the best product he can. The premise of both series are different; in one you are a lone adventurer surrounding yourself with beings you make. In the other you are a tight-knit group trying to survive. The stories are different enough. I'm glad that Jeff's incorporated some improvements from Geneforge into Avernum's world.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Ociporus

I see Thuryl's got a neat little dragon as an avatar. Maybe that's a lead for a graphic artist.

Not my work, I'm afraid; I couldn't draw a straight line to save my life.

[Alorael at Large]

How about some curvy graphics, then?

 

—Alorael, who has definitely noticed Jeff's reluctance to prune old and deprecated code. There were unused bits of Exile in games as late as Geneforge, I believe. But that's all unrelated to recycling, which Jeff generally does judiciously and usefully. Writing everything from scratch for every game would give him an unacceptable release schedule from the perspectives of both his wallet and his fans.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Well, now, here I'm not so sure I agree with you. If a writer writes both popular crime fiction and highbrow literary novels, it's perfectly reasonable that she maintain two separate styles, one for each genre. A change in her style in one genre might have implications for how she writes in the other, but then again, it might not.

Not to mention that you run the risk of alienating the audience who liked the first book and were expecting something similiar and failing to attract the people who read the first book and didn't like it...

Dikiyoba.

[Ghaldring]

*sigh*

 

Evnissyen:

 

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ut it seems what happened was that Ghaldring took offense to some things that maybe he shouldn't have.

 

I haven't taken offense. I'm irritated at continually having my views misrepresented, despite my repeated attempts to correct your misconceptions.

 

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I mean, first of all: my "Luddite" comment was not meant to be insulting. It was just a playful jab. It was a comment on your attitude, Ghaldring, not a personal attack.

 

I've already explained several times as to why I don't fit the definition of a 'Luddite', yet you persist in painting me as anti-progress. If you have any intellectual integrity whatsoever, you'd stop doing this.

 

 

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I think what really ended up bothering me and others was the immaturity and seeming hysteria of your posts. All those scatological references really do not help.

 

Style over substance fallacy. Despite my passionate style, my arguments are sound, and I haven't breached any of the forum rules.

 

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Also, honestly, your argumentation is just confusing.

 

Only to those whose powers of comprehension are failing them.

 

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You still haven't made clear why A3's graphics are better than A4's

 

Yes I have. From my *first* post:

 

"The pseudo-3D graphics are hideous and reek of Geneforge (I actually enjoy Geneforge, but come on, why the blatant cross-over?)

 

and then:

 

"To put it simply, if it looks like a turd, then it's a turd. It doesn't matter how new and shiny said turd may be."

 

It's quite apparent that my main reason for disliking the Avernum 4/5 graphics is because I find them ugly. Even 'The Limper' picked up on this, replying with:

 

"Except, you know, none of the graphics look bad."

 

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(and Geneforge importation is not an excuse).

 

Geneforge importation is a legitimate complaint, because it detracts from Avernum's uniqueness. Avernum is no longer a distinct series, but some sort of Avergene hybrid.

 

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If you're arguing that isometric projection itself is the definition of "pseudo-3d" then you're suggesting that A1-A3 is also "pseudo-3d". This is of course a valid statement, but if you condemn the games for this alone then you're suggesting that isometric projection is an incorrect approach to game-development, which would be delusional... therefore I'll assume you're not suggesting that. However... if the latter explanation is not the case, then I honestly cannot make sense of your argument. You'll need to be clearer. Sorry.

 

I never made mention about 'correctness'.

 

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Personally, I prefer to think of each game as having its own personality and standing,

 

There is tremendous irony is that statement. I'll let you figure out why. Hint: How can Avernum have its own personality when its graphics are imported from Geneforge?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

There is tremendous irony is that statement. I'll let you figure out why. Hint: How can Avernum have its own personality when its graphics are imported from Geneforge?

How can it have its own personality when it's written in the English language just like thousands of other games?

[Alorael at Large]

All of Jeff's games have personality in spades, and it's all in the writing. The graphics are decent at best, and the gameplay ranges from tolerable to fun, but the games shine in the writing.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure the games all have separate personalities. A1 and A2 are similar. Entirely new flavor would be weird, though. You expect some continuity in a series.

[Ghaldring]

Wait as sec:

 

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A1 and A2 are similar.

 

That's to be expected, given that A2 is the sequel to A1. But the Avernum trilogy should remain distinct and separate from the Geneforge series. I'm amazed that such a position isn't consensus on these forums.

 

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Entirely new flavor would be weird, though.

 

So you're against the change in engines that occurred between A3 and A4?

[Alorael at Large]

If all the flavor is engine and graphics to you, I think you're missing a whole lot of Avernum. The writing, for instance.

 

—Alorael, who just doesn't think either the engine or the graphics were major vehicles for game flavor. They could be, and in other games they are, but not in Spiderweb games.

[Toby-Linn]

Spiderweb games are different then other games.....they have their own style and personality.

 

I think it's mostly the writing and the plots, it's not the engine or graphics.

 

Wow, just realized my title has changed, now I'm a Shock Trooper!

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Build it and they will come... with pitchforks and torches.

If all the flavor is engine and graphics to you, I think you're missing a whole lot of Avernum. The writing, for instance.

?Alorael, who just doesn't think either the engine or the graphics were major vehicles for game flavor. They could be, and in other games they are, but not in Spiderweb games.

Quoted mostly to preserve the PDN. Spiderweb games are never about the graphics which is one of the last things Jeff works on when making a game. It's mostly the story and the mood of the world you are passing through with Jeff's little jokes written into the text.

The game engine makes some difference if you are going back to an earlier game in the series. Exile 1 has almost no slots for inventory after you equip you armor and weapons.

[Sudanna]

Ghaldring- The correct term is "Averforge"

 

Sure, the graphics aren't the best. Nalyd personally prefers A1-3 graphics, because they're smaller and you can see more. But Avernum's uniqueness really isn't impinged upon, even in a purely visual sense. Sure, it's different, but the crossovers from Geneforge are few and far between. All Nalyd remembers is one PC graphic and the hellhound/roamers.

[Pig Catapult]

And even the Hellhound was given a new graphic in Av5. I was very happy about that, actually. Not too thrilled with the Wyrmkin and their graphic, but that's possibly more because they spit acid at me than anything else, and I tend to hate anything and everything that can inflict Acid damage on me, due to the days of Av1-3, where acid status almost always meant sure doom until you could get your hands on Cure 3.

 

Hmmm... Actually, I'd like to see Giant Slugs come back. For all the horror they represent to me, they're goshdarn cute.