Favourite Avernum?

[BathosAndPathos]

I have no doubt that there are posts like this, but I can't find one! And, to necro would be bad, so...

 

What's your favourite Avernum? Justification, please!

 

Mind is probably Avernum 3, due to the freedom given, the streamlining of the interface, and the options. The older ones seem to have less freedom than it, and the new ones seem to have far less.

[Xaiya]

There should be two answers to this because there are two kinds of Avernum: the old trilogy, and the new trilogy.

 

Of the old one, I find it hard to choose between A2 and A3.

Of the new one, it is A5 so far.

[Alorael at Large]

A2. Best plot, best world (A3 is huge but not especially dense), and best Dark Waters. Also vahnatai are neat. A5 is better than A4 and a close contender, but A2 still wins. Nostalgia may play a role.

 

—Alorael, who will say now that BoA does not belong in these comparisons. It's apples to orchards.

[Micawber]

My order of preference for the series so far is as follows:

 

1st: Avernum 3;

2nd: Avernum 5;

3rd: Avernum 2;

4th: Avernum;

5th: Avernum 4.

 

I really did like A5, however have not played it as much as A3, don't know yet whether I will. Both have extra replayability (frontier feel, artifacts quests, expert areas, option to join Anama, etc) giving them that edge over A2.

 

Now, if we were talking about Exile, I would put E2 before E3 because it was more atmospheric (something to do with the graphics and the engine). But in A2/A3 it seems to work the other way.

 

It is really hard to justify but that is my gut feel.

[Redstart]

1st: Avernum - improves the most on the original, so even though it's not the best in the series, I have to rate it at no.1

2nd: Avernum 3 - Exile 3 being my favorite, this one seems somehow connected to it

3rd: Avernum 2 - The most epic of the tales, I'd say

4th: Avernum 5 - I'm not a fan of the new engine, so this is the highest I can place A5. It's basically a pipe-run, which is also bad. Still, from what I've read/heard of A4, it's a huge leap in the right direction.

Did not place: A4 - Never played it beyond a very short stint with the demo.

 

[Goldengirl]

1st Avernum 3. Weakish plot, but great world and beautiful environment.

2nd Avernum 2. Great plot, great chapter system, good combat, okay atmosphere. Really, more likely ties with A3.

3rd Avernum 5. Meh engine, great feeling, sort of like a return to A3, but man, that engine.

4th Avernum. The original is never last. Didn't like not having a quest list, but the rest was great.

5th Avernum 4. Like having the okay atmosphere of A2 with the weakish plot of A3, and an engine worse than A5.

 

[Sudanna]

Nalyd has only played 3, 4, and 5. . . No offense, but there are better, newer things to spend his very limited funds on than A1 and A2.

 

Anyways, the order is 3, 5, 4.

[Dikiyoba]

A2.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Toby-Linn]

A2 and A3 are my favorites, I can't choose between them.

 

Both of them had great plots, huge areas to explore and so many quests and dungeons.

 

I also liked that it had quest functionality as in it saved a list for you so you didn't have to record notes all the time and that it didn't have that annoying bug when walking that A1 has.

 

I like the newer games as well, I enjoy playing A4 and seeing all of Avernum with the new engine and I enjoy playing A5 and seeing the Dark Waters and new areas...oh, and for getting to ride boats again!

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd, Prince of Suicides

No offense, but there are better, newer things to spend his very limited funds on than A1 and A2.

Given the number of people who rank A2 among the best of the series, your decision not to play it makes no sense. If you played the demo and just didn't like it, okay, but age doesn't make it worse.

—Alorael, who can't even really understand not liking the demo, except possibly for its linearity. On the other hand, he could understand feeling cheated by the full game, since after the demo area it becomes much less linear and much more open. If you want a linear game, A2 isn't really it.

[Toby-Linn]

Out of curiousity, where does the demo end for A2?

 

I've only played the full version.

 

Click to reveal..

Is it only the area you're barricaded in? Do you get to meet the Vahnatai and go on the rapids?

 

edited to add spoiler tags

[Sudanna]

You get to meet the Vahnatai, at least.

[Alorael at Large]

You are prevented from teleporting back to the ToM and from entering parts of the wilderness around vahnatai civilization. Effectively you get access to chapters 1-3, but not 4.

 

—Alorael, who never understood the chapters. It's as though Jeff started making a linear game, got bored, and declared the open-ended majority after that brief beginning to be one long final chapter.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Yes, both linear and non-linear, no wonder it's everyone's favorite.

 

My favorite is actually Avernum 3, but I suspect this is largely due to the nostalgia of it being the first Spiderweb game I played.

[Evnissyen]

Alorael:

"Popularity" (in quotes for a reason) is not equatable with correctness.

 

I'm still unclear why so many of the people who post frequently on these forums so dislike A4... especially now that they've gotten used to the new interface and graphics and claim to like A5 so much. (Ditto with G3.) A4 is a great game. It's also clearly superior to A3 graphically, its interface is cleaner and prettier and easier to use, the unified gameplay (no switching maps between forts, broad regions and battle sequences) is friendlier, and the battle sequences are more refined as well. It's nice to be able to just point to where you want to go and then watch your party go there... rather than having to use the keyboard buttons and clomp... clomp... clomp.... (After all... if you use the mouse in A3 you inevitably keep bumping into things.)

 

[Lilith]

The problem with Avernum 4 is that plotwise, it's basically Avernum 3 with a better engine. There was a large crowd clamoring for A4 not to feature the Vahnatai too prominently, because it was widely felt that their storyline had played out already. Jeff and the early betatesters of A4 all but promised us that Rentar-Ihrno wouldn't be the main villain, and then surprise! It was her after all. Lazy and unoriginal.

 

This is also part of the reason why I disliked Avernum 1 through 3, except that they didn't even have a better engine going for them.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

its interface is... easier to use,

No. No it was not. Dikiyoba disliked G3's inventory system already, and A4 was G3's problems times four.

[Mah Al Ibara]

I enjoyed the first three simply because it was great to see the Exile games updated, and the exile games were probably the first RPGs with a completely graphical interface that I had ever played. (I recently tried to play the original text-based RPG, "Adventure," for the first time in a quarter of a century, out of nostalgia, but I've been spoiled by Spiderweb and gave up after about five minutes.)

 

Storywise, I think all the Avernum games are strong. (It's the Geneforge games I find a bit forced lately.) But IV was annoying because of so many tedious areas, particularly the all those damned pylons blocking the way to Rentar-Ihrno's fortress. And clearing hordes of bugs is not my idea of fun. At least the bug areas in V have interesting twists. (I'm also glad the chitracs in V have been visually distinguished from those in Geneforge.)

 

I think V is the best to date in a just about every sense. Apart from the quirky pathfinding when you're in a boat (which I think must have simply been an oversight), there's little to complain about with the interface and gameplay. The idea that Avernum is becoming overpopulated and its resources stretched to the breaking point is interesting, plausible, and makes me look forward to seeing how the problem is dealt with in VI.

 

The art is much improved (though still not great), and it's nice to see more variation in avatars of NPCs. Jeff, if you're interested in a manga/anime look, I can introduce you to any number of talented young Japanese artists.

[nikki.]

Oh, choosing my favourite Avernum game is like deciding which one of my babies I should save from the child-catcher.

 

1st: Avernum 3, purely because E3 was my first SW game, and it's one I've replayed the most. I've recently realised that E3 is better, mind, but that's another story.

2nd: Avernum 2, although this is more like 1st-and-a-half.

3rd: Avernum, because the old engines are better. And really, healing potions are not orange.

4th: Avernum 4, thus placed because I actually finished this one.

5th: Avernum 5, which suffers to much from "oh, I'm in the middle of nowhere, stuck in a frontier with bad-guys after me, but oh wait, there are towns all around, and actually, I never see the bad-guy until the end, and, oh my gosh, I've got another 14 spiders with poison attacks to fight through before I get past this 4x4 room" syndrome. I'm sure it's a good game, and all, and actually, the opening is the second best opening of a SW game ever, but it just gets too repetitive far too quickly.

[Toby-Linn]

Hahaha...just had to comment that I loved the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang reference!

 

E3 was my first spiderweb game too, and I still like playing it for nostalgic purposes...but the flatness gets to me after awhile. I did like having 6 characters though.

[Evnissyen]

Thorn:

Strange... I've found the Geneforge series to be notably stronger and more original in plot and story... Avernum seems just a little heavier on the hack-and-loot aspect.

 

But I agree that the whole finale of A4 was a little tiresome and drawn out. I didn't much like the Honeycomb, either. I'm not a big fan of labyrinths.

 

Dikiyoba:

In regard to the new inventory system: It's nice to be able to sell what you're wearing... as well as being able to view your entire inventory instead of having to scroll a narrow window up and down to make sure you didn't miss anything.

 

[Tyranicus]

1. A2 is the best by far. It comes very close to being my favorite SW game.

 

2. A1 has a great atmosphere and a good plot.

 

3. A3 suffers a little from the big empty areas and towns that are exactly the same, but I still consider it quite fun.

 

4. A5 would be my second favorite if I could only get used to the new engine.

 

5. A4 is not even worth replaying.

[Nioca]

First - Blades of Avernum

Does BoA not even exist anymore? I mean yeah, sure, it's not part of the series, and it (mostly) isn't canon, but it's still an Avernum game. With the best rendition of the original trilogy engine, never-ending material, and general creativity and replay value, this easily ranks at the top of my list.

 

Second - Avernum 3

This was the first Avernum I ever played. A decent engine, plot, and just a huge world full of stuff to find, I always enjoy a trip through this one.

 

Third - Avernum 4

I'm almost certain that a few members will be shaking their heads at this, but I found A4 enjoyable. Despite being a repeat of A3's plot and using what effectively is the Geneforge engine, this game was still enjoyable. There was plenty of action, too, and it didn't get overly repetitive. Plus, I still think Rentar-Ihrno is the best villain in all of the Avernum games.

 

Fourth - Avernum 2

The plot was fine in this one and there weren't any serious flaws in the design, save for one: it tried to be both linear and open simultaneously. The vahnatai appearance provided a sense of urgency that quickly petered out on the exit of the third chapter (the Empire's invading! But they're going to wait for you to kick their tan butts before they do anything else!) It went from being forced down a river to being free to do what you darn well please, which I think broke the atmosphere. That, and it was way too easy to get lost and turned around.

 

Fifth - Avernum 5

Simply read here for my thoughts on A5.

 

Sixth - Avernum 1

I'm sure it's great, but I just couldn't get around the engine. Probably as a result of doing A3 first.

[Ephesos]

Ooh, fun. In my absence I missed this one.

 

1. Avernum 2. Hands-down the best offering by Jeff that I've ever played. Even without having played A1, this was a wonderful intro for me to the world of SW. Rich in story and gameplay, while just dripping with atmosphere, still my favorite. Haven't played it in too long, though.

 

2. Blades of Avernum. I'm with Nioca on this one, 'cause far too often it seems like everyone forgot about this one. It narrowly edges A3 in my book because it's far more diverse of an offering. And the near-limitless potential helps.

 

3. Avernum 3. Well, one of my first posts here was me griping about how A3's plot was a letdown compared to 2. But hey, it was still good, and it widened the slice of setting-space that Avernum's story had occupied so far. I still miss the surface, though it was all a bit similar after a while. And I definitely miss Hawke's Manse.

 

4. Avernum 5. Easily better than A4, and quite solid, it nearly beats A3. The gameplay's far more varied, and the story stacks up favorably. Maybe it's because it had to live with all the fallout of A4, but I can't quite rate it too high... the graphics still bother me a little.

 

5. Avernum 1. Probably because I played A2 first, I liked A1, but never liked it all that much. I should probably be rating it higher, but meh.

 

6. Avernum 4. It wasn't as awful as people made it out to be, but it certainly was far from wonderful in my book. But it kept the series alive, and the company.

[Mah Al Ibara]

I think it must be difficult for people who started somewhere in the middle to judge the older games objectively, simply because the engine has improved so much that going back to using the old engine is extremely frustrating. Fortunately, I played every Spiderweb game in order, starting with Exile I, so for me, apart from nitpicking about plots and such, it has just gotten better and better.

 

As for Blades of Exile/Avernum, I loved the concept, but with that outdated engine, it's just too frustrating to play. Ditto with Avernum.

 

What would be great is if Jeff could someday update the "Blades" engine in such a way that he could regularly put out upgraded versions that would have backwards compatibility, so that scenarios would not become obsolete with each upgrade. I know it's a lot to ask, but there's a long and proud tradition of asking too much of Jeff, and I'm not about to break with that tradition.

[Munchkining Rabbit]

Avernum 3 by far. Nostalgia (omg omg it's the surface), story, big world, and the last avernum with soul crystals...

 

However, playing it is horribly irritating because of the interface. Furthemore, it won't even load the saves on my poor macbook.

 

*Starts crying like a mutilated baby in the snow*

[DOA Assassin]

I gotta say Avernum 3...it was the best overall. The second best I got to say is Avernum 5. Im not a big fan of the old ones though they were really good and Avernum 4 wasnt too sharp. A5 brought a twist and exitement and is a good start with the new gfx and interface.

[Brock The Archmage]

All this talk I hear about "which engine is better" on these boards is just deppressing. I like them all for their own pluses, and don't bother rating them against one another, which ensures I have no qualms replaying any SW game. I still play Exile because of options, Avernum because of the stats being maxed at 100 for supreme customizability and playability as well as the interface being easy to use, and I play Geneforge and the new games because of the atmosphere and story just getting more and more developed with each game.

But maybe I'm just an optimist.

 

And now for something completely different.

 

Back on topic, If I have to rate them, I would say A2, because I like the story best, A3 because of the world, A1 because of story but no quest list , and I can't rate the other 3 without playing more than the demos.

[Callie]

1. Blades of Avernum - Scenario editors rule.

2. Avernum 3 - Big world, great fights, and lots of side stuff.

3. Avernum 5 - Addicting... until you get to vahnatai lands. I never played past that.

4. Avernum - The game never ran out of good fights, and the plot was pretty good as well.

5. Avernum 2 - I don't understand why everyone likes it so much.

6. Avernum 4 - I didn't even play past the first town...It was that bad.

[Feo Takahari]

I almost can't believe I have so little to do that I'm adding on to this. But hey, it's summer, and school's out, and if I get to the movies too early I might have to sit through a preview for "Space Chimps"!

 

Back on topic: I really loved Avernum 2, but that might just be because I almost never got to play it. (It was on my brother's Mac, which he seldom let me borrow.) A1 was really fun, even if there were some aspects they improved later on, like adding a quest list. A5 is a solid sequel, and the combat disciplines are something I've wanted for YEARS. A4 suffers from Final Fantasy syndrome: the fights are all "keep attacking over and over until you kill that blasted thing", but the plot's so good you keep on playing. It helps that the jokes are the best of any Spiderweb game I've played. A3 comes last, even though it was good, because having to rush to keep the towns from being destroyed was just too stressful. (I kept having to use the character editor to send me back to Day 1.)

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

A3 comes last, even though it was good, because having to rush to keep the towns from being destroyed was just too stressful. (I kept having to use the character editor to send me back to Day 1.)

I've never had any problem destroying the plagues in time. Maybe you spend too much time exploring.

[Xaiya]

It's fun to watch them crumble, though.

[Ghaldring]

Bathos:

Quote:

What's your favourite Avernum? Justification, please!

 

Everyone loves offering their opinion, hey?

 

I'd say that for me, the ranking goes:

 

1. Avernum 2

2. Avernum

3. Avernum 3

----------

4. Avernum 5

5. Avernum 4

 

Avernum 2, Avernum and Avernum 3 are all pretty neat games.

 

Avernum 2 manages to edge ahead simply because of the plot. The introduction of the Vahnatai was one of Jeff's best innovations, and the war against the Empire is quite evident throught the game, adding a very tense atmosphere. I also enjoyed how Avernum 2 started with a rather linear plot, and then branched out once you reached the Vahnatai lands to give the player ultimate freedom.

 

Avernum sneaks ahead of Avernum 3 simply because I could actually managed to finish it, whereas I found the redirection of the lasers in the final fortress infuriatingly annoying (I redirected them all into the centre, and still nada!) Avernum 3 also has a couple of gameplay weaknesses that aren't present in Avernum (eg several impotent spells, Level 3 lower tier spells located in weird places)

 

I think it's rather deceptive to place Avernum 4 and 5 anywhere near Avernum 1-3. Avernum 4 and 5 are just awful. The pseudo-3D graphics are hideous and reek of Geneforge (I actually enjoy Geneforge, but come on, why the blatant cross-over?), and the game engine is just crap. Just a few of my gripes:

 

- The spell system is plain retarded (why purchase more levels of the same spell?)

- You can't obtain special abilities,

- The means why which you earn special skills is plain annoying.

- Losing the ability to make your own potions.

- Combat is repetitive, tedious, and wears on your nerves.

- Your clicker finger will suffer from RSI after one hour of playing.

 

And let's not forget having to kill, over and over again, chitraches. Oh, and the ridiculous plot of both.

 

The series should have stopped with Avernum 3.

[Evnissyen]

Ghaldring:

It's called progress. I don't expect A6 to look like A5, either, now that the new Geneforge finale is getting a makeover; and it's partly for that reason that I eagerly await the new look of Avernum 6 . . . though not as much, maybe, as I eagerly await Geneforge 5.

 

I'm also not sure why the 3d graphics of A4 & A5 are, to you, false, whereas the more primitive graphics in the original trilogy are correct.

 

Anyhow...

 

Brock makes a good point. Unfortunately, the biggest thing that keeps me from getting into the Exile series is the visually confusing graphics.

[Ghaldring]

Eynissyen:

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It's called progress.

 

Is that what it is called? I was thinking more along the lines of 'abomination'.

 

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I'm also not sure why the 3d graphics of A4 & A5 are, to you, false, whereas the more primitive graphics in the original trilogy are correct.

 

I like how you associate primitive with bad, and newer with good.

 

To put it simply, if it looks like a turd, then it's a turd. It doesn't matter how new and shiny said turd may be.

[Sudanna]

Except, you know, none of the graphics look bad.

 

Isn't it great how you're trying to equate anti-progress sentiments with the graphics of a game.

[Xaiya]

Ghaldring, I suggest you quit living in the past.

Sure, it is annoying at first, but I got used to it.

 

Also, for A4, the plot was necessary.

 

For A5, the only bad part about the plot was the fact that you weren't actually chasing Dorikas. You were just moving though areas learning about how he passed through.

[Lord Bob]

1) Avernum 2: Best story and excellent gameplay. You could get in huge, raging, fights, but there was an excellent ratio of story-to-killing. And the killing was memorable; the vahnatai-aided assault on that tower whose name eludes me was a superb fight. Fun characters. Fun side quests. Enough to do that it took me a year to mostly clear it out. There simply wasn't one weak spot in the game: A2 is up there with Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur's Gate II on the list of the best RPGs I've ever played.

 

2) Avernum: High marks for originality. If the setting and the characters have worn somewhat with age, that's not Avernum's fault. Plus, when I played through it again fairly recently I was pleased by just how well it held up: it carried over Avernum 2's very nice ratio of story-to-killin'.

 

3) Avernum 3: Too long and quite dreary at points, but the best-looking game Spiderweb ever made and with some serious high points. Moreover, it was certainly the largest and richest Avernum game, and while there was more filler than I'd like (I understand why it was there, but still), there was enough substance to make up for that.

 

4) Avernum 5: Wander through what is essentially a long corridor and every so often somebody throws eight monsters with a thousand hit points at you. Avernum 5 was some sort of reverse sandwich: the best parts were on either end but the middle was a bunch of dry, crusty bread. Bonus points for having neat characters and the best storyline since A2. Minus points for having less freedom to move than your average Choose Your Own Adventure story. I realise that this was to a large extent by design, but I don't have to like the design.

 

5) Avernum 4: I wouldn't say it's a bad game, but it's the least of the Avernums. It shared with A5 the problem of having fights and puzzles that were just annoying rather than fun. It had a sublimely tired villain in Rentar-Ihrno and the Darkside Loyalists occupying a big chunk of game but ultimately seeming more like a sequel hook than a plot. But the engine was an improvement and the game was fun enough to play through once.

[Lilith]

For what it's worth, I think the Exile graphics look great, the A4/A5 graphics look pretty good (except for the awkward animations), and the earlier Avernum graphics look like stick figures.

 

Seems like the Exile series has finally been thrown into SW's memory hole, though.

[Alorael at Large]

Not entirely true. Exile's terrain isn't as pretty as Avernum's terrain. Avernum just suffers from indistinguishable stick figure monsters.

 

—Alorael, who very much likes how things filled out for A4 and A5. Yes, there's Geneforge graphic recycling. It still looks better.

[Evnissyen]

Ghaldring:

Silly Luddite. You haven't explained your terms.

 

On another subject: I must commend and thank Lord Bob for introducing me to the phrase "ratio of story-to-killing". I like that.

[Ghaldring]

The Limper:

Quote:

Except, you know, none of the graphics look bad.

 

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

 

I'm quite happy with 3D graphics, as long as they don't look like blocky pieces of dog faeces. If you can't give me polished 3D graphics which haven't been shamelessly ripped from a totally different trilogy (read: Geneforge. What was Jeff thinking?), then just stick with the simpler, more charming graphics unique to that trilogy. Avernum's graphics were fine. Oh, and they were 3D. For some reason, I sense that is important to some posters here.

 

Iffy:

Quote:

Ghaldring, I suggest you quit living in the past.

 

Strange. I'm not the one gushing over Jeff continually 'remaking' his games and killing what was once a good series by concocting redundant, worthless pieces of tedium. The Exile trilogy ended back at Exile 3, why can't Jeff just let it die? Why does Jeff need to make the same errors that Groening and Lucas made?

 

Quote:

Also, for A4, the plot was necessary.

 

No, the plot was not 'necessary'. The entire trilogy could have ended quite nicely back at Avernum Exile 3.

 

Oh, but I think you're going to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but you need Avernum 4 in order for Avernum 5 and 6 to occur, bla bla bla, look ma, no brain!" To that I reply 'bullocks'. You could slice Avernum 4 out of the trilogy, and Avernum 5 would still make perfect sense.

 

Avernum 4 was a huge slap in the face to every Spiderweb fan veteran, an insult to our intelligence, a defiant extended middle finger from Vogel. Only someone new to the 'series' and who has no appreciation for a decent RPG would be hoodwinked.

 

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For A5, the only bad part about the plot was the fact that you weren't actually chasing Dorikas. You were just moving though areas learning about how he passed through.

 

A similar concept was employed in Ultima: Serpent Isle, in regards to Batlin. Now, compare the plot of Serpent Isle to Avernum 5, and tell me which one is more immersive.

 

Of course, you might not have played Serpent Isle, which wouldn't surprise me. You talk as though you wouldn't know a decent RPG if it falcon punched you in the face.

 

Evnissyen:

Quote:

Ghaldring:

Silly Luddite.

 

Good stuff, calling me a Luddite and all, your non-existent powers of comprehension bedazzle me. You must ask yourself this question though: How can I be anti-progress if I prefer Avernum Exile 2 to Avernum Exile 1? In case you've forgotten, 1 comes before 2.

 

Quote:

You haven't explained your terms.

 

If you were oh so confused about my terms, great one, why didn't you ask for clarification, instead of presumptuously proclaiming: "I'm also not sure why the 3d graphics of A4 & A5 are, to you, false, whereas the more primitive graphics in the original trilogy are correct."

 

By the way, you haven't explained to me why you automatically associate 'newer' with 'better'. Do you mean to tell me you'd rather drink the urine I squeezed out just a few minutes ago, instead of red wine which has aged in the cask for over fifty years? Because it's the same story with Avernum 4 vs. Avernum Exile 2. Avernum 4 is the new piss, Avernum Exile 2 is the aged red wine. Even a half-wit with a modicum of taste would choose the red wine over the piss.

[Sudanna]

Oooh! Nalyd believes we have a replacement for ET! 'Cept with a different series. And more irrational. And less interesting. Dammit, ET needs to get back here.

 

Yeah, anyways, the graphics and plot of the later Avernums are matters of opinion- As was the revamping of Exile into Avernum. There was some Geneforge copying, but Jeff's graphic budget ain't that big, and they worked well. Honestly, if you prefer Exile, play Exile. If you prefer Avernum, play Avernum. It's not like he replaced Exile, he just offered a more advanced alternative.

[Rowen]

Originally Posted By: Coalescence and Cohesion

Yes, there's Geneforge graphic recycling. It still looks better.

Do to the fact that I have never played Geneforge yet I never saw any "graphic recycling" because they were all new to me. I do like how the graphics in A4 and A5 have turned out too. It nice to see that goblin my fighter is going to squish. At the same time I also miss the "open" feeling that the A1-A3 graphics had by making everything so small.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I agree with Alorael, mostly. I think the Exile graphics looked awesome, they were maybe the best looking. I think the Avernum engine was an improvement, but it did hurt the monster graphics. The newer Avernums, recycled or not, benefited greatly from borrowing Geneforge's bestiary. I must say though that I miss the old turquoise and deep purple of the Exile games, and don't so much like the paler Avernum palette. It doesn't create an inappropriate atmosphere, just a different one. Lost the nostalgia, though it's still doing a great job of creating it's own. But then, I already had a palette discussion somewhere else already.

[Ghaldring]

Limper:

Quote:

Oooh! Nalyd believes we have a replacement for ET! 'Cept with a different series. And more irrational.

 

A justification as to why my observations are 'irrational' would be nice.

 

After all, what I've said on this thread isn't exactly new. Other Spiderweb veterans have also highlighted the inferiority of the new engine and graphics, as well as the piss poor plots of A4 and A5.

 

Note that I'm not appealing to authority to justify my observations, but simply pointing out that I'm hardly some fringe nutjob.

 

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And less interesting.

 

You think I'm posting here to amuse you? How conceited!

 

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Yeah, anyways, the graphics and plot of the later Avernums are matters of opinion

 

Yes, but not all opinions are equal. While what one considers 'ugly graphics' is rather subjective and up to personal taste, distinguishing a good plot from a bad plot is far less subjective.

 

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- As was the revamping of Exile into Avernum. There was some Geneforge copying, but Jeff's graphic budget ain't that big,

 

That didn't stop him from introducing an entire set of new graphics in Nethergate or Geneforge, giving them a personalised appearance. I wouldn't complain so much about recycled graphics if the plot (and the characters) weren't also recycled, but there's only so much I can take.

 

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Honestly, if you prefer Exile, play Exile. If you prefer Avernum, play Avernum. It's not like he replaced Exile, he just offered a more advanced alternative.

 

The 'If you don't like it, don't play it' attitude is fair enough in most cases. Yet some veterans would see Avernum 4 and 5 as the equivalent of putting a pair of slacks on the Statue of David, or drawing a mohawk on the Mona Lisa.

 

Exile 1-3 formed an excellent, self-contained trilogy, and Exile 2 was a true masterpiece, Jeff's 'Serpent Isle'. Having such a trilogy befouled by the likes of Avernum 4 is shameful, the equivalent of a "Phantom Menace" to the Star Wars trilogy, or "Ultima Ascension" to the Ultima Trilogy.

[Sudanna]

Well, you're taking this far too seriously, which is irrational, if you ask Nalyd. Of course you're posting for Nalyd's amusement- he is, after all, all that matters in the universe.

 

You can't very well adapt Avernum graphics to Geneforge ones- Nalyd hasn't played N:R, so he wouldn't know there.

 

By the way, the Mona Lisa would look awesome in a mohawk.

 

Nalyd isn't entirely sure, but he seems to remember that sales figures would disagree with you. Jeff wasn't doing very well when making A4, and the sales from that, Nalyd thinks, were more than expected.

[Nioca]

It saved Spiderweb Software, in fact.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Yes, but not all opinions are equal.

You're right. The market's, as a whole, and Jeff Vogel's opinions are the only ones that matter. Avernum sells. Avernum IV sells. Avernum V sells.

[Evnissyen]

Ghaldring:

You sound like one of those music fans who get all upset when their favorite artist decides to do something different.

 

And you still haven't explained why the more modern graphics suddenly became incorrect.

 

You also still haven't explained your terms. As for mine: "Primitive" is tied to technological advancement along a timeline. That which is described as primitive is that which presents itself at an earlier point in that timeline of technological advancement than that which presents itself later. By that description, G4's graphics are also 'primitive'... but less primitive than A3's.

 

Now it's your turn.

 

(By the way: You've been sounding a little more than just a bit angry, lately. Maybe you should take a few deep breaths? None of us are out to get you, you know.)

 

Perhaps the "Geneforge recycling" accusation might be settled of Jeff decides on a different visual tactic for A6 than for G5... though by then perhaps, in sequel-terms, it might be too late to satisfy everyone who's still upset about the graphics advancement (or 'crossover', however you want to look at it).

 

Oh, and finally: I actually agree with Nalyd that the Mona Lisa would look good with a Mohawk. I'm sure somebody's done one, at some point.

 

Progress, see?