[nitpicking] making light

[keturn]

Ok, so any schmuck who studies with a mage for any length of time at all can summon fire, send it as far an archer can shoot a longbow, and roast vermin. Priests can cast spells that last through many hours of dungeon crawling. But nobody in my party can make a magical light source or see in the dark?

 

... even though they're traveling among wizards who have spent generations *underground*? You'd think that one of them would have been tired enough of having candles blow out on them (or stolen from their nightstand by wandering adventurers) that they would have found a spell for this.

 

But I'm not done with the game yet, so maybe it's some 17th level spell or a secret of the Anama. Or, this is my first Avernum game, so maybe there's something I missed...

 

(Just because I'm grumbling about this doesn't mean I'm enjoying the game any less. On the contrary, I think it's pretty great. Thanks!)

 

On a slightly more useful note, what does having a light source do? I've been assuming that fighting in the dark lowers your chance to hit, but I'm not really sure about that, or if your enemies are as bad at seeing in the dark as you are.

 

Can you sneak around more without a light? Not that I've ever had much success sneaking anywhere in this game.

[Zummi]

Light just makes the area brighter. Darkness does not incur any penalty.

[Dikiyoba]

Light exists for the sole purpose of making it easier to see stuff. But that's a very good reason for it indeed.

 

Dikiyoba would be a bit unhappy with the way light works if Dikiyoba didn't almost always reload after a character dies. (Dikiyoba's first character carries all the lanterns and is usually the one to die, causing the light to die too.) But it sure added to the atmosphere when he died during the middle of the pit crawler fight and Dikiyoba decided to finish the fight anyway.

[Randomizer]

Having light means it's easier to see the dead bodies before you stumble over them in the dark.

 

Avernum 4 had no light spell or working light sources so we just cursed the darkness (since we couldn't light a candle) and turned up the monitor's brightness.

[Toby-Linn]

I miss my trusty light spell too!

 

Now I have to pick up every lamp and lantern I see....thank god it doesn't add to the weight.

 

You have to have light in dungeons so you can see the little black spot that marks secret passages also so you can see the monsters better. I don't know about you, but I like being able to see what I'm fighting

[Cake]

The darkness helps hide the 90s graphics. That's my only explanation.

[Evnissyen]

Funny, Cake... funny.

 

First, in regard to weight: I might be in the minority in actually missing the days when backpack weight mattered. I like realism, man. And it's not realistic to be carrying 25 sets of full plate armor unless you're Atlas and somehow have an absurdly enormous backpack which somehow does not restrict your movements.

 

Anyhow... Keturn has a couple of excellent points. First, being able to summon light should be the simplest of priest spells available. (Isn't it actually available in Nethergate? I think I seem to remember something like that.) Having to carry lanterns and candles is, I think, a little bit silly. If I can summon all kinds of meteorological disasters out of nowhere then I should be able to summon a little bit of light. And yes: I agree with Keturn that in the darkness of Avernum, before the glowing fungus, this should be the very first thing magical trick a wizard would develop and master.

 

Also, an even better point: YES! Lack of light SHOULD have detrimental effects on certain things such as your fighting ability, or positive effects such as improving stealth capability (perhaps a good trait to import from Geneforge 4?).

 

And another thing: How is it that a character can hold a candle steady (which requires two hands actually -- one to hold the candle and one to protect the flame) and still be free to fight?

[madrigan]

I see the logic of having a light spell, but the current arrangement doesn't bother me. I like the Infinite Backpack or Weightlessness. It keeps me from having to spend extra points on Strength, and it means I don't have to have a stash of Fine Steel and Leather somewhere, and then forget where it is.

 

As long as the game adheres to its own internal logic, it's ok with me. It's not a simulation. I think that growing a third arm in order to hold a lantern during combat, and never needing to eat, is well within the bounds of Avernum logic. Personally, I find that having to attend to mundane things like nutrition and mass taints the fantasy a bit.

[olop4444]

There were light spells in A1-3, but in the end, Jeff probably decided it was too inconvenient. It was somewhat fun using the light spell and then realizing I was surrounded by 20 monsters or so.

[Cake]

The entire game resides underground.

 

Riddle me this. The "outside" areas of Avernum don't require light, but it's still underground. I would rather we continue this forfeiture of "realism" so that I don't need to assiduously collect every lantern I see and then clicking on them every time I venture forth into a dungeon.

 

I would like to imagine myself playing an epic warrior fighting big bad monsters than a walking lamp post.

[Locmaar]

In my humble opinion, having to use a Light spell in order to make dark areas less dark has a lot to do with 'grinding'. Jeff would have to make certain darknesses darker lest they'd be penetrated by Light, which in return would cause us Light spell fans (and I count myself amongst them) call for a Strong Light spell to be able to penetrate strong darkness.

 

Some dungeons are more fun if you don't see everything, and this seems to be a device that Jeff likes to utilize once in a while.

 

I also think I'm quite happy with my PC's not having to go to the loo every once in a while (though that might be fun, too).

 

It somehow doesn't make a difference in the long run.

 

PS: I'd like to add that I'm a huge fan of, say, Exile II's complexity and amount of spells. But I also enjoy the streamlined versions of Avernum IV and V.

 

PPS: I'm writing this post on my brand new MacBook which makes me very(!) happy. 5 1/2 hours of battery life is more than I could have possinly ever dreamed of.

 

PPPS: To be quite fair: I can dream of a lot of things far better than 5 1/2 hours of battery life, but still I'm very(!) happy.

 

PPPPS: I absolutely adore post scriptums.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Cake:
The entire game resides underground.

Riddle me this. The "outside" areas of Avernum don't require light, but it's still underground. I would rather we continue this forfeiture of "realism" so that I don't need to assiduously collect every lantern I see and then clicking on them every time I venture forth into a dungeon.

I would like to imagine myself playing an epic warrior fighting big bad monsters than a walking lamp post.

The "outside" is lit by glowing fungi. We'll skip the debate on whether this was created by Erika Redmark or the Vahnatai. Some areas are not as well lit by this fungi and in Avernum 1 and 2 the Mertis Spiral had a section where magic prevents you from illuminating a section so the monster appear right next to you as you blunder around in the dark.

[Evnissyen]

Well, naturally, some things are so mundane as to become redundant, such as eating, sleeping, bodily functions, personal hygiene, health care issues, myopia (does my hero or heroine choose glasses or contact lenses?), and let's not forget whatever matters might arise from human attraction... these will go unnamed out of respect for the sensitive. Endurance points don't matter much, either, if your opponent's careless blow happens to sever your neck. Obviously this isn't the sort of stuff I have in mind when I'm talking about realism, I'm only talking about those matters which give the player a sense of place, a sense of BEING THERE. That's all.

[Alorael at Large]

Jeff wrote an essay in his "Grumpy Gamer" column years ago, back when his games actually did require light and food, that requiring light and food was mostly a minor irritation and serves no real purpose.

 

Is it realistic? Not really. But hey, most enemies need light too. So the result would be a battle with the same statistical results, probably, just with longer delays while you fumble around and miss. Or you can abstract it by saying that in the dark everyone is less accurate but also worse at dodging, with a net result of no change.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure in A5 there's another band of intrepid men and women who are devoted pacifists and wearing absurdly heavy armor. All they do is carry packs and sometimes candles and torches as they follow in the footsteps of your characters. Maybe they're devoted biographers of adventurers? Extreme lackeys?

[Sarachim]

Personally, I liked the way light was handled in Exile/Avernum, especially when it gave you a choice between sneaking around blindly and making yourself visible a mile away. But maybe that's just nostalgia.

 

Also, I think a real fight in the dark, where you literally cannot see anything except the active PC, could make a cool optional fight.

[Slawbug]

Eschalon does an exceptionally nice job of handling light and darkness, shadows, relevant combat effects, and skills that take advantage of them. It's one of the game's fine points. And it makes for a really interesting way to play... for about 15 minutes, maybe a half hour. Then the mechanics become boring and predictable, easy to capitalize on or to ignore.

 

Eschalon does it well, but there just might be pieces of the game system out there that are more worthy of developer time than light.

[keturn]

"Eschalon"! That's the game I was trying to remember the name of this afternoon. And yes, that's the game where it doesn't take all that long to buy enough "hide in darkness" skill so that in a dungeon or outside at night, nothing can find you unless you walk up to it and poke it in the face. Which means you're pretty much invulnerable as you sit in the shadows and hit things with projectiles.

 

So, uh, yeah, perhaps not the best model either.

[Ociporus]

Regarding Food;

It should be a given that adventurers are sort of collecting/killing and devouring food as they travel along. Just like it is assumed they are camping out when tired. I personally like not having to worry about getting "hunting skill" and so on. If an able-bodied adventurer can't catch something to eat...

It is kinda funny, though, that eating restores HP. Right in the middle of a fight, eat an apple and be healed! Not practical later in the game with more damage, but sure helpful during the first couple dozen hours.