'Best' Bow

[Lemur Industries]

I'm a big fan of archers, and I was wondering what is the highest damage bow in the game? I read in another thread that the damage formula is a bit diffrent then you'd expect and that the damage ranges aren't a very good indictator...

 

"Just divide the maximum damage by the minimum damage to get the damage multiplier. For example, if a weapon does 10-20 damage, its multiplier is (20 / 10) = 2. Higher multiplier = better than."

 

So does this mean Ceremonial Bow (15-45) and Farsight Longbow (10-30) are the same damage? And that Heartseeker is the best overall?

Also, how does Submission and Acid arrows work for the submission bow and bow of decay?

 

Thanks,

Ed

[Zummi]

You can't really say that a weapon(or in this case..a bow..) is the best just because of its damage..there are many factors considering a "best"..a damage is just one of them..

 

And Submission Arrows stuns your enemy..like the fungus that goes by the same name (Submission Fungus..@_@) and Acid Arrow causes acid damage and inflicts acid on the target..

[Lemur Industries]

Well, one of my party members is just an archer, I am looking for the bow with the highest damage output. Does the +bows from Eliavri’s Bow make it surpass Heartseeker? This is the kind of stuff that isn't obvious, and I don't wanna waste my eyestalks.

[Student of Trinity]

Weapon damage in Jeff's games is always of the form NdX, meaning each hit rolls N dice, the dice being X-sided. The X is fixed for each weapon, but the N consists of a base value for the weapon, plus a bunch of the wielder's stats. At high levels, the wielder stat contribution is usually really high, like around thirty. So when you work it out, the X multiplier is usually decisive at high levels. By the time you can get Heartstriker, it beats any other bow quite significantly.

 

Is it worth the eyestalks? There are two sets of eyestalks in the game, and three good items to make from them: Heartstriker, some magic-boosting gloves, and a necklace giving strength +4. The necklace is in Muck, while the gloves and bow are both made in Melanchion's castle. It's quite a tough choice. Min-maxing might prefer the gloves over the bow, but I think the bow is more fun because it has a very visible effect, while a few more points of spell damage in the late game is not all that noticeable, even if it might technically be more effective.

[Lemur Industries]

I think I'll get 1x gloves and 1x bow. My spear slith doesn't need +4 str, he's already hitting 200s in Torment at Azure's Gallery <.< Thanks for the info.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Is it worth the eyestalks? There are two sets of eyestalks in the game, and three good items to make from them: Heartstriker, some magic-boosting gloves, and a necklace giving strength +4. The necklace is in Muck, while the gloves and bow are both made in Melanchion's castle. It's quite a tough choice. Min-maxing might prefer the gloves over the bow, but I think the bow is more fun because it has a very visible effect, while a few more points of spell damage in the late game is not all that noticeable, even if it might technically be more effective.

There are conflicting reports on the number of eyestalks in the game: I definitely got three, but apparently one of the eyebeasts doesn't always drop a set.

I suspect the necklace is the best use of eyestalks overall if you like wearing lots of armour: I was putting my spellcasters' skill points into Strength in the endgame because I had nothing better to do with them and could use the encumbrance boost.

Heartstriker is somewhat overrated for anything less than a dedicated archer. I did the calculations and it only averaged 2 or 3 more points of damage than a Blessed Longbow for my archer/spellcasters.

[Lemur Industries]

I just killed Corusca like 5 minutes ago and he didn't drop eyestalks...reloaded and killed again, still didn't.

[*i]

I did find a third pair of eyestalks (along with Heartstriker and a bunch of other stuff), but you get them after defeating General Redmark, so it is too late to use them for anything.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Lemur Industries:
I just killed Corusca like 5 minutes ago and he didn't drop eyestalks...reloaded and killed again, still didn't.

Item drops are fixed when you first enter an area, so reloading won't help. He dropped a set for me, though.

[Alacmari]

Quote:

Originally written by Lemur Industries:

Quote:

I just killed Corusca like 5 minutes ago and he didn't drop eyestalks...reloaded and killed again, still didn't.

Item drops are fixed when you first enter an area, so reloading won't help. He dropped a set for me, though.

From my experience I think you need to do the trials and get the ring Corusca wants, then kill him when he tries to stop you from leaving to get him to drop eyestalks.

[Klintor Tazzankah]

Exactly.

 

Corusca just drop eyestalks when you kill her at the Lake of Trials gate, after you speak that you dont will give her the inside box prize.

 

And I have 6 or more lucky points in the sum of entire party. I dont know if it's relevant somehow.

 

EDIT: I prefer Eliavri Bow for warriors and the Heartstriking for mages/priests. The extra strength point of the first one do far more damage than the heartstrike power, in berserker hands.

The heartstriking damage of the second is a welldone upgrade for the "not so strength" hands of the mages, and it's lighter, so don't encumbrace anyone.

 

Hugz,

[Swivelable]

Ah, yes the Eliavri's Bow. I'm a fan!

I just wandered around to get leathers so I could upgrade to Heartstriker. But that was a big disapointment for all the hype attached to it. Base damage 8-32 (+4?) compared to 14-42 (+3?) seems a no contest, not to mention the +2 QA, +3 Bows and +2 HostileRes. Heartstriker has no added benifits. Where's the Lizard steaks? The N part does not seem to justify using it.

Doesn't the extra +3bow balance off the extra +1?

 

I kinda Like my mage using the Bow of Decay only 7-14 )+2?),(but acid is cool in the right hands!) For real damage I stick to spells.

Preist has Ebony for QS and mind effect res. 14-42 (+3?)

Warrier uses the Farsight for a touch of sharpshooter and Fatigue Remove 10-30 (+3?)

 

My Nephil Archer has 10 stngth, 12 dex, 22 bow, 6 gym, and 15 Sharpshooter and a smattering of most everythign else. Is that dedicated enough

 

Am I right in thinking Heartstriker is not right for me?

[Zummi]

I got 40 Sharpshooter on my kitty..though I did put my skill points when I was level 32..

 

I put the Ebony Bow in my warrior for added Mental Resistance and I'll possibly put the Eliavri in my mage/priest..

[Student of Trinity]

With its 4-sided dice, Heartstriker will do an average (Dex + Bows + Sharpshooter)/2 extra damage, compared to the 3-sided die Eliavri's bow. Its 8 base dice average 20 points.

 

If you include its +3 Bows as +3 base dice, Eliavri's base damage is 17 3-sided, averaging 34. So before counting the stats the player has without equipping either weapon, Eliavri has an advantage of 14 points. Once you start counting in the bigger extra dice for all those stats, Heartstriker begins to gain.

 

So the question is only whether your total of Dex, Bows, and Sharpshooter is greater than 28. If it is, Heartstriker should be your better weapon. A dedicated archer by the end of the game should certainly be in this territory. A less dedicated archer might well not be.

[Zummi]

Wait..so the Ceremonial Longbow cannot compete with the Eliavri and the Heartstriker?

[Randomizer]

The Ceremonial Longbow is available earlier in the game than the others which come only in the last part.

[-Jeran Korak-]

How do you keep that bow? It always vanishes when I exit that area, even taking off the equipment, leaving it on the square behind the encounter point, triggering it, stepping over then picking up the items again fails to work.

 

And wait a moment, Ed?

[Zummi]

@_@

 

I didn't ask when I can get it..I was asking if the CL is stronger than the Eliavri and the Heartseeker in terms of damage..

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Azuma:
@_@

I didn't ask when I can get it..I was asking if the CL is stronger than the Eliavri and the Heartseeker in terms of damage..

It does 15-45 damage, so it's technically a little stronger than Eliavri's Bow but still potentially weaker than Heartstriker.

The only way to keep it is to smuggle it out of the area in a dead character's inventory, and then never return to the Fang Clan outpost while carrying it.

[Student of Trinity]

If the CL has only 15 base dice, then Eliavri beats it because its +3 bows really gives it 17 dice. The only reason to have a bow that adds bow skill, instead of just having more base damage dice, is to boost Battle Disciplines as well.

[Slawbug]

That and to-hit rate, which is relevant on Torment but not Normal.

[DokEnkephalin]

Has anyone gotten decent damage output from an archer at all? I've barely seen it hit harder than a bolt of fire, even with only 1 point in magic, and this is a Deadeye Nephilim. I've now got a combined total 43 in dex/bow/sharpshooter, now using the ebony bow, and still the only time I can exceed a mage's bolt is against humanoids, due to anatomy.

[Slawbug]

Archery is not useful for damage output. It is useful for flexibility and consistency. It has the advantage of spells that you don't have to use AP moving or get in close, and the advantage of melee that you have infinite uses. The trade-off is that it is less damaging than comparably invested-in melee or magical attacks.

 

Given the bonuses you get from the Nephil race (towards battle disciplines, and gymnastics) and Divinely Touched (towards all damage, and armor) the result is that archery makes a great secondary attack for every character, but does not reward heavy investment well.

[DokEnkephalin]

Given that you don't have to keep up with ammo, or spend on it, that may sound reasonable. But now it's completely obviated. Why bother?

 

Sure, the deadeye nephilim can hit as well as a bolt of fire that only costs 2 mp, and roll with most blows. Who would ever think of playing a non-nephilim archer? And without deadeye? And if this skill is only viable for one build, one race, one skillset, why even have it?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by DokEnkephalin:
Sure, the deadeye nephilim can hit as well as a bolt of fire that only costs 2 mp, and roll with most blows. Who would ever think of playing a non-nephilim archer? And without deadeye? And if this skill is only viable for one build, one race, one skillset, why even have it?

A dedicated archer is a pretty poor character: archery is designed to be a secondary skill for characters who can do other things, and in that function it's very useful for almost any character build.

All of my spellcasters in A5 were Nephilim, but none of them had Deadeye. They all used archery at least as often as they used spells. My Elite Warrior/Divinely Touched slith polearm user also carried a bow and used it occasionally, mostly to deliver battle discipline attacks from a distance.

[Randomizer]

Deadeye character trait is a holdover from earlier games where archery was more effective.

 

Using thrown weapons is more damaging even though there are a limited number of missles in the game. If you save the better ones for key fights where range attacks are more useful, then their extra damage over most bows is highly helpful. For all other fights it's easier to use a bow.

[madrigan]

People have different ways of thinking about the game. I like to role-play more than I like to min/max. So I often have an archer character just because I thought of an interesting mini-backstory for an archer.

 

For the same reason, it can be fun to have a character who is intentionally against type -- like a Slith archer.

 

I don't judge the way other people choose to play, but the more RPG-ish approach is more fun for me personally.

[DokEnkephalin]

I like to develop characters based on RP choices rather than mechanics, but when it results in unwarranted screwage from the mechanics, I can't help but feel burned by it.

[Student of Trinity]

The main thing is that there's no Quick Action double attack for archery. That, and the fact that you can get a d4 pole arm much earlier in the game than you can get Heartstriker, mean that archery is never going to be your heavy damage dealer. Carrying a dedicated archer in the party is probably suboptimal, at least until you get Heartstriker. But the ability to apply Battle Disciplines from a distance compensates more than you might think. At any rate it's fun, to scheme out which enemy to plink with a Shieldbreaker first thing in a battle. Gives you that Starcrafty combination tactics feeling.

[Slawbug]

Actually, Quick Action is much weaker than it was in previous games. Without a hysterical skill point investment it's difficult to get it very far above a 25% activation rate, and that won't happen until later in the game anyway.

 

Here's the math, to make things clearer.

 

With a long bow, each point to Bows/Sharpshooter/Dex adds an average of 2 damage (1d3). Against enemies with some armor (very common) it adds maybe 1.5 damage on average.

 

With a halberd and 10 points in Quick Action, each point to Poles/Blademaster/Str adds an average of 3.13 damage per turn (1d4 x 1.25). Against armored enemies it's about 2.35 damage.

 

With the flaming sword and 10 points in Quick Action, each point to Melee/Blademaster/Str adds an average of 2.5 damage per turn (1d3 x 1.25) against anything not resistant to fire (which is most things).

 

For comparison, pumping magic stats adds an average of 2 damage per point to Bolt of Fire, and 3 damage per point to Divine Fire and Fireblast.

 

The other thing to note about the melee attacks is that, with the new AP system, it's easy to lose out on Hasted attacks if you have to move first. When fighting enemies that have high HP and don't move around much, or who swarm your melee fighter, you'll get the full average given above. But when fighting enemies who move around a lot, or weaker enemies who are spread out, you'll occasionally miss out on an entire melee attack. Usually this is not a huge deal -- you can always switch to your backup bow attack when it happens -- but it does make archery more efficient in some of the minor (random-style) battles when you're exploring, and it's exceedingly annoying against a couple of bosses (the guy in the lower right corner of the nephil test comes to mind).

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by DokEnkephalin:
I like to develop characters based on RP choices rather than mechanics, but when it results in unwarranted screwage from the mechanics, I can't help but feel burned by it.

I know what you mean, but one of the good things about Avernum IV and V is that it seems you can complete the game with just about any party. I suppose you could intentionally design a failing party. I haven't played I-III, but maybe they're the same.

In V, I think the option of playing on Easy or using the Character Editor encourages role-playing. The story is engaging enough that I want to play through the game and see what happens more than I want to have the toughest party.

[Lemur Industries]

I have always had a pure archer in my party since Exile 1. Yeah, he's always the least usefull, but it mixes it up with a game series with as minor mechanics as this. Plus all Nephils should be archers, they just go hand in hand.

[DokEnkephalin]

I've played every Avernum with singletons or duos; mostly because it's less tedious to maneuver while staying in combat mode; using any combination of character types, and they usually balance out with a party of four because of their exp gains.

 

But archery is seriously imbalanced in this game. It takes twice as many points to bring battle disciplines up, and the damage gain is so meager that battle disciplines don't significantly improve attacks. Further, none of the required skills contribute to Blademaster, so the fatigue rates don't improve. But for all the insane amount of points in Bow and Sharpshooter, I'm hardly scratching through the phys dam resistance, while a Bolt of Fire deals a better punch. It's fortunate that Gymnastics and Parry can be trained without melee/pole, so at least he's practically unhittable while he's slowly chipping away at targets, but death curses are certain death for him.

 

I tried Heartstriker after hearing the hype about the damage, and I'm still not seeing anything impressive out of it. It's really not much better than Eliavri's Bow, which wasn't any better than the Ebony Bow.