What is energy?!

[Helice]

Right now my inventories are absolutely full of rings, necklaces, belts and cloaks that provide every conceivable level of resistance for combat. I really want to get rid of some, but I'm thrown over exactly what "energy resistance" is all about. What/which spells/attacks use energy? Or which monsters?

[*i]

Energy is essentially electricity or lightning damage that you receive from lightning spray and related attacks. Many of the most crushing attack spells are of this form.

[Mysterious Man]

*i, What is love?

 

You seem fairly knowledgeable. And what is fire too? Is resisting fire actually helpful?

[Darkdread]

I miss quick fire...

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by Mysterious Man:
*i, What is love?

YouTube has the answer.

On your question of fire, I cannot help you.

[Mysterious Man]

You are wise, *i.

 

Speaking of Quickfire... When will Exile 4 and Exile 5 be released? The wait is killing me.

[Alorael at Large]

February 30.

 

—Alorael, who expects Galactic Core 2 to come out first and render all other games irrelevant.

[Randomizer]

Latest word from Jeff is new versions of Avernum 1 through 3 to update the game engine to Avernum 6 level. Exile 4 and 5 will have to wait until then.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Latest word from Jeff is new versions of Avernum 1 through 3 to update the game engine to Avernum 6 level. Exile 4 and 5 will have to wait until then.

I'm not very smart -- is Jeff seriously going to update Avernum I-III before releasing VI? I've tried the older games, but I can't stand the interface. I feel left out! I would love to play through the original trilogy with the new engine.

[Slawbug]

No, he'll release 6 first, as well as Geneforge 5. And I wouldn't be toooo surprised if a new series rears its head before the remakes start happening again.

[Locmaar]

Considering how Jeff's been working in the past, I wouldn't be too surprised if he releases updated versions of previous games in between major new releases, just like he has done with N:R. At least I hope that's what he'll do. It's been a long time since I've played Exile 2 and as I didn't exactly fall in love with Avernum's early interface, I'm really enthusiastic about a shiny, pretty version of the tale.

[nikki.]

Averforge Dark Waters?

 

I suppose a saving grace is outdoors, but still.

[Locmaar]

I am no supporter of the Averforge-thesis; there are vast differences in the engines (real-time as opposed to turn-based snaps to mind). Also, life's way too short to get wound up by a couple of pixels crossing an imaginary cyber-line.

 

Furthermore, I'm one of that odd breed who really enjoyed Avernum 4 for the sole reason that it looked prettier than older Avernum games. For complexity-of-plot's sake I replayed Avernum 3 shortly thereafter, wishing it would look shiny and sparkly like A4. Avernum 5 looks even much better, and I can only guess that A6 will even more so, so yes: I'm looking forward to A6-Dark Waters.

[nikki.]

A4's creature graphics look too static. I prefer the single poses of yesteryear. Also, the caves in A4/5 just didn't have the same atmosphere, the same claustrophobia, of A1/2, and not all of that is down to the lack of outdoors - the graphics themselves play a huge part.

 

Don't get me wrong, A5 went a long way to going back to the original trilogy. I am enjoying it a lot, but not as much as I did the original trilogy. And, of course, it's Jeff's choice to use whichever engine he sees fit.

 

I'd just rather he uses the BoA engine, and tweak it to either make it run in a window, or else make it run at a higher resolution without looking rubbish.

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by Henry Plainview.:
Don't get me wrong, A5 went a long way to going back to the original trilogy. I am enjoying it a lot, but not as much as I did the original trilogy. And, of course, it's Jeff's choice to use whichever engine he sees fit.

I share this notion, but I believe it's due to the time they came out and how old I was then (at least with me it's that). I don't know if I would even look at a game like Exile for more than a few seconds should I come across one today (unless for reasons reminiscent or nostalgic in nature).

But while I do see your point, I'm sure I'll enjoy the new remakes just as much as I didn't think Exile III was better or worse than Avernum 3.

[olop4444]

I think that the old graphics are just as good as the new graphics, in different ways though. The new ones look more refined, but the old ones were just.. nice.

[Brock The Archmage]

Quote:

Originally written by Darkdread:
I miss quick fire...

i miss mindduel....

[Evnissyen]

Avernum 6? Damn, I thought #5 was going to be the last? And why back to Exile? I was, well, kind of looking forward to a new sort of game with a new premise and a new story.

 

Not that I don't like Avernum. I do, very much.

 

I guess it would be nice if #6 were a little more complicated, strategically (Avernum 5 actually is nicely more complicated, anyway, than #4), and more realistic in respect to how the characters behave. For instance when I'm told, in a dialogue box, that somebody I'm talking to runs away, and then I close the box and the person's still there, just standing around. Or, when a character is offended by something I say and yet this effects nothing, I go back to talking to them and it's as if I never offended them. Or I can steal things in front of a person's face and they don't seem to care. Or I can steal something significant from a merchant's back shed, say a weapon, and then sell it back to them and they don't even recognize that it's their own weapon. Just... a little more in the way of human (and non-human) memory would be nice, it would make the game so much more challenging, and interesting... strategy is a nice thing to have in an adventure game. Much of the beauty of Jeff Vogel's games is the simplicity... the interface doesn't get in the way of the game, and the graphics aren't overwhelmingly elaborate like too many games. This, I think, allows a lot more room for the kind of stuff that really makes a game interesting... the storyline(s), the characters, strategy, discovery, and so forth... .

 

Of course, I don't want to suggest that Jeff Vogel should be making his life more difficult. I guess I just thought I'd sort of inject my own thoughts.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Clavicle:
Avernum 6? Damn, I thought #5 was going to be the last? And why back to Exile? I was, well, kind of looking forward to a new sort of game with a new premise and a new story.

As Nethergate: Resurrection was a remake of Nethergate with a more modern game engine, Jeff plans to update the game engines for his older games so they will run on newer computers. Jeff hasn't announced a schedule for the updated versions, but it's possible he may release them in between new games set on a different world. This way players who want new games won't be slighted and those of us that like the older games will get to play them again with the newer interfaces and battle disciplines.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

what i'd enjoy the most is playing avernum 1-6 with a uniform, avernum 3-based engine. that would be really, really great. not that a5 wasn't a big step forward from a4, and i bet a6 will be even better, but still, i miss the a3-engine. all the money i have for the one who makes a1-6 boa scenarios!

 

with some exile-features, mabe... imagine being able to throwing some quickfire into hawthorne's throne room and then creating a barrier to protect yourself... the possibilities... im drooling

 

what was this thread about again?

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
what i'd enjoy the most is playing avernum 1-6 with a uniform, avernum 3-based engine. that would be really, really great. not that a5 wasn't a big step forward from a4, and i bet a6 will be even better, but still, i miss the a3-engine. all the money i have for the one who makes a1-6 boa scenarios!

Oh no, not the A3 engine! Seriously, I started with A4, and loved it, and I loved A5. I went back to try the older games, and could not tolerate them for more than ten minutes. If A4 had the A3 engine, I would have uninstalled it almost immediately. With the new engine, I played through four and a half times. I hope that Jeff will re-present A1-4 with the system from A5.

I don't like the thing where you can't move after attacking or casting, though. I don't like it in G4 either.

[Evnissyen]

I'm with Madrigan, here. The graphics in A3, sorry, are just way too retro, which is to say they're just about intolerably primitive.

 

Seriously, they look like they were made in the 80's, and I'm sure that that was the intention... but... game developers back then only had so many options, and so much memory to work with. They would've made prettier and more playable games if they could.

 

Also, it's too damn hard to move around in A3. That's one of the major problems. Also, opening and getting at stuff isn't as easy.

 

Same problem with Nethergate, although I did pay for the game once I got hooked on the storyline and the Celtic folklore references (I like Celtic folklore). The Seelie Court, the selkies, and so on and so forth. Celtic folklore is great stuff.

 

But the graphics, the battle scenario, the sound, the interface... were just too weak for me to really appreciate. I found myself wishing that Jeff, instead of just repackaging the original game, had redone the interface and the graphics and sound A4 style. It could've made a great game, considering the material he had to work with.

 

The first Spiderweb game I payed for was Geneforge 3. Between that and Avernum 4 I chose the one with the more interesting story... and the better sound and animation. Then I shelled out for A4 and played that one through, and that was a fun game, too. Now I'm addicted to the Spiderweb games, but I can't get into the early ones.

 

Seriously... what is it that so many people here find so engrossing and endearing about the ultra-retro pre-Geneforge material?

[Student of Trinity]

I had exactly the same reaction. I tried A1 after Geneforge 2 I think, and I just could not get interested in what happened to those tiny little guys bipping across the landscape. But then at one point I somehow got motivated to try the Blades of Avernum demo, which is at least approximately A3 as an engine. And after a while I got into it, and wanted to finish the game. People still played games in the 80's, and got hooked on them and stayed up late finishing them. So it still works. Now that we know how much more is possible, the archaic graphics are an entry barrier. But you can get through it and have a good game.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

interesting, most people who say things like that played geneforge or avernum 4/5 previous to the older ones.

 

i think it would just take you some time to get into a1-3. seriously, the simpler graphics are very pleasing to one who wants to focus on the plot and the atmosphere and everything. but then, what i meant saying i want the a3/boa engine back, was not that i prefer the graphics so much, but because i prefer the interface, the way you move etc.

 

and theres another point. how in the world can you say moving/interacting is easier after a4?? i can barely stand walking in a5. actually, thats my main problem with the new trilogy as well as geneforge.

 

doubtless, the insanely great fighting system of a5, the sound and many other new aspects would be a great improvement. but heck, i just love a1-3. oh, and i miss health bars!

[Evnissyen]

SoT:

A fair point, but... retro in my opinion is only valuable when it adds something. Well, for a lot of people there's either the nostalgia or just whatever warm feeling that sense of primitiveness gives a person... that's a value, true... but in the early days of PC's, people endured what we now find annoying because that was what was available. Nowadays, well, those limitations are just annoying.

 

Honestly: It's not so much the graphics in the pre-Geneforge games that bother me so much as the difficulty in moving around and in grabbing and opening/closing stuff; it's tiresome.

 

But maybe some day I'll get into them.

 

In today's games: I do rather dislike what seems to be a lack of truly interesting material... there seems to be too much of a concentration on over-the-top, cinema-style graphics, animation and sound. It's just overwhelming, in my opinion. I prefer a simple interface and a good story with interesting characters and a lot of options. In other words: I wish they'd give up on the complicated visuals and put more effort into complicating the story and the experience.

 

Rent:

There's probably something to that, in regard to: which people prefer which games... but I'd suspect it's because those who found Spiderweb's games in pre-Geneforge times and liked those games payed for the games; those who didn't like them didn't pay for them... until Geneforge came along.

 

In regard to moving around: It's very difficult in A3 and Nethergate, at least with the mouse. It has to be done with the keyboard, because with the mouse you just keep getting stuck whenever your lead character runs into something.

 

In Geneforge and A4 & A5: all you need to do is click on a spot someplace, and zoom! Off you go!

 

Although it is a little annoying annoying how, in A5, when your party is supposed to be zooming off someplace: suddenly some person decides to move in front of you, and you stop moving... . Why can't the game just have my party maneuver around him/her?

[Slawbug]

The earlier Avernum games were mainly designed for easy keyboard movement. Geneforge and the later Avernum games are obviously designed just for mouse movement. Not-crappy mouse movement is a relatively new concept in top-down CRPGs, so older gamers are often very accustomed to keyboard movement, while newer gamers might not be exposed to it.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Clavicle:

Honestly: It's not so much the graphics in the pre-Geneforge games that bother me so much as the difficulty in moving around and in grabbing and opening/closing stuff; it's tiresome.

...

In regard to moving around: It's very difficult in A3 and Nethergate, at least with the mouse. It has to be done with the keyboard, because with the mouse you just keep getting stuck whenever your lead character runs into something.

This is my main problem with the older games too. I should have been more specific -- I don't mind the graphics so much, I just can't stand the moving around. I don't like using the keyboard to move, and with the mouse I am always hitting the wall next to the door and so on.

The only thing I really don't like about the movement in A4 and 5 is that you can't move a really long distance at once. In G4, it seems like you can move farther, but the characters walk really, really slowly.

EDIT: I didn't see the previous post from Disappearer before I posted this. I think you are probably right about more experienced gamers being more comfortable with keyboard navigation.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

The only thing I really don't like about the movement in A4 and 5 is that you can't move a really long distance at once. In G4, it seems like you can move farther, but the characters walk really, really slowly.

The distance you can move is based upon the pathfinding algorithm. For A4 and A5 it's roughly half the zone width on the automap, G4 has about the same, but I think because of terrain it seems like a longer distance.

Character speed is slower in Geneforge games because outside of combat the game is real time. So the game engine takes longer to move the NPCs while you move. Avernum games use the same engine now but turn movement seems to take less calculation time.

[Slawbug]

It really has nothing to do with engine calculation time for NPCs, it has to do with animation time. In Avernum 4-5 there is no walking animation, so steps happen with the smallest possible delay. In Geneforge, the delay is however long it takes to display the animation. This is actually character-dependent and can be modified in the game data files.

 

Most people seem to agree that the walking speed in Geneforge is fine for when you are exploring, the problem is needing to cross territory you've already been through. That becomes horribly tedious. G3 was the worst offender with its mandatory boats and special entrance levels like Dhonal's Keep, but it can be annoying just walking to the middle of a town to get to a shop you visit often. Click... wait. It's sandwich time, something no RPG should have.

[Kelandon]

I much, much prefer being able to keep the screen centered on the characters as you move with the keyboard. As far as I could tell, this dropped out after A3, and I've been forced to use the mouse for movement ever since (which I hate).

 

The Nethergate/Avernum Trilogy look-and-feel is by far my favorite of the three Spidweb look-and-feels (Exile, Nethergate/Avernum Trilogy, and Geneforge/Avernums 4 and 5), but I think that the engine overall took a nosedive at A3. Game mechanics in A3 (and default mechanics in BoA) are much worse than in NG or A1 and A2. (But then, the best game mechanics in all of Spidweb might have been E3 or BoE. Haven't gotten to A5 yet, so I don't know how it compares.)

[Evnissyen]

I completely disagree with Disappearer, here. I much prefer the smooth walking animation to the non-animated characters in Avernum who somehow shift from square to square at remarkable speed. They could be legless for all I know; I can only assume that those tapping sounds are their footsteps.

 

To me, yes, it might be a little tiring to have to wait for my character to cross an entire area just to get to, say, a boat (or, in G4: the energy field)... but it's such a tiny trade-off for being able to watch my character walk smoothly across a field. In Avernum my characters might be able to zip across a couple of miles of territory in a couple of seconds, but I'd gladly trade that off if I could watch them walk smoothly across the screen, as in the Geneforge games.

 

I don't agree at all that this is "something no RPG should have". It adds too much to the game, I think, and: taking it out just because it's occasionally a small hassle is just a little bit petty . . . in my opinion... .

 

Perhaps there should be an option in Geneforge to allow your character to run instead of walk... ? Although this would ruin some of the real-time charm, I think. Personally, I love it the way it is, I wouldn't change it at all.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Clavicle:
To me, yes, it might be a little tiring to have to wait for my character to cross an entire area just to get to, say, a boat (or, in G4: the energy field)... but it's such a tiny trade-off for being able to watch my character walk smoothly across a field.

Because we all play RPGs so we can watch our characters walk smoothly across fields.

Outside of combat, I'm usually not even looking at the main screen: I'm looking at the automap. I couldn't care less about pretty walking animations.

[Locmaar]

I have to agree with Clavicle here. I was a huge fan of Exile including BoE and for a short time part of the early community endeavors to create massive scenarios. Like many others I underestimated the workload and had to quit.

 

When Avernum came out I thought it looked hideous and felt very sad about that. I now realize it had to do with me and my mindset at the time, being all worked up with BoE, so I wasn't up to enjoying the change.

 

I returned to Jeff's worlds with Avernum 4 and was surprised by how it got a ritual beating by the community for a) having no plot and not having the BoA engine. I thought it was his best-looking game until then. After A4 I dived into G3 and absolutely loved that. I also enjoyed G1 and G2, but a lot less than A4 and G3, due to my aesthetics' unability of being downgraded.

 

G4 and A5 are even better than the previous games and so far I enjoyed every little graphics improvement, which is why I was terribly underwhelmed by N:R, even though it has a great storyline. I don't know if it's the engine that prevents me from being hooked, but I fear it has something to do with it.

 

So what I'm saying is this: should Jeff choose to return to, say, BoA's engine he would risk his business, since I don't see how anybody outside these boards has high praise (or money) for its nostalgic charme. I understand the notion, but it's not going to happen and for very good reasons.

 

This does not mean, however, that I don't enjoy these discussions on which game mechanics are 'broken' by an engine update, or the lack of windowed modes for quick emailing while playing. On the contrary: I find all of this highly entertaining. And I'm looking forward to Exile TNG.

[Evnissyen]

Thuryl:

I live for being able to watch animated characters walk in smooth, well-coordinated fashions. It's one of my things. The better a character walks, the wider I grin and the harder I clap my fingers.

 

Also, I prefer Family Guy to South Park.

 

In regard to Nethergate Resurrected: Yes: As I've posted elsewhere, I loved the storyline and all the references to Celtic foklore. I payed for the game based on that, but the graphics, interface and sound were still disappointing in comparison to Geneforge & later, and I still feel that Nethergate with a A5 interface, graphics, sound and animation would make a killer game.

 

Anyhow, in terms of movement: I do have to admit that Avernum, because of the long distances a character needs to travel, does not lend itself to casual animated walking. You do need to be able to cross long distances quickly... still: there could be an option, it's just occurred to me, where you could select a point on a map and then the game zips your party off to that point, while still allowing for pretty images of your character walking smoothly across a field. (...sigh!...)

[Slawbug]

When I said "no RPG should have that," I was talking about sandwich time, not walking animations. Walking animations are fine and are, in fact, a staple of the vast majority of CRPGs. Console RPGs have had them from the beginning, as have action-RPGs, and they've spread. These days it's only the little niche of Gold Box style games (well, plus roguelikes) that don't have them.

 

Walking animations do not normally create sandwich time. "Sandwich time" refers to time where you may as well get up and make a sandwich, because you know nothing will happen in your game, but you have to spend that time having nothing happen anyway. It's a waste. Walking animations only create sandwich time if the animation is slow compared to the amount of terrain you have to cross. Geneforge has lots of detailed terrain, which mostly becomes uninteresting after the first time you cross it.

 

What Geneforge could really use, IMHO, would be a "run" mode that could only be activated (a) when the zone has been cleared, and ( when no enemies are visible. This prevents it from poisoning any game mechanics, while at the same time getting rid of sandwich time.

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
What Geneforge could really use, IMHO, would be a "run" mode that could only be activated (a) when the zone has been cleared, and ( when no enemies are visible. This prevents it from poisoning any game mechanics, while at the same time getting rid of sandwich time.

Even though I realize that this would mean fiendishly much more work for Jeff, I find myself in absolute and utter agreement with that (ah! Diablo II).

[Slawbug]

Actually, it seems pretty easy to implement. You can already give yourself a permanent speed boost just by changing one number in the data files. Presence of hostiles and whether a zone is cleared or not can't be hard to check for, since the game already keeps track of those things.

 

It is admittedly a little more complicated to boost your creations' speeds, but if this was being handled in a hardcoded way, I don't see how it could be too hard.

[Kelandon]

Wow. Some opinions that have been expressed in this thread are not ones that I thought that anyone could ever have. Liking A4 and G3 more than most of the other Avernums and Geneforges? I mean, A4 was a good game, sure, but I didn't think that there was anyone out there who would like it more than the others.

 

Also, someone who cares about walking animations? Whew. Just goes to show that tastes are completely subjective, I guess.

 

For the record, the reason that I prefer the look-and-feel of the Nethergate/Avernum Trilogy engine is that Geneforge and the later Avernums look like they're trying to have more detailed graphics but are still cartoonish (i.e. they're trying to be better and are failing). The NG/AT graphics (and for that matter, the original Exile graphics) don't look like they're trying and failing; they look like they're supposed to be that way.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

I completely agree with Kelandon. Plus, I mean sheesh, has one of you guys ever tried playing A4/5 on a laptop? It's horrible.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
I completely agree with Kelandon. Plus, I mean sheesh, has one of you guys ever tried playing A4/5 on a laptop? It's horrible.

I play them all on a laptop. I missed the older games and their keyboard interfaces. My finger gets tired from using the touch pad to click between the different screens.

[Taliesin]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
I completely agree with Kelandon. Plus, I mean sheesh, has one of you guys ever tried playing A4/5 on a laptop? It's horrible.

Ach, yes. Now that I've finished A5, I'm right back to N:R and BoA again.

[Evnissyen]

Amazing... people who think walking characters, or well-drawn graphics, are a bad thing.

 

Of course, Disappearer fairly points out that nearly all games have characters who can walk. I guess that could be an argument in favor of non-walking characters in Avernum, that being a break from tradition.

 

In regard to laptops... unfortunately I don't have lots of money. (Of course: If I had more money I'd own a Mac, not a crappy Dell.)

 

Besides, can't you attach a mouse? Those touch-pads do suck, all-around, with everything.

 

And yes: the Disappearer-approved cleared-for-running option sounds good. Sandwich-time should not be compulsory! I should be able to choose when I want my sandwich!

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
Actually, it seems pretty easy to implement. You can already give yourself a permanent speed boost just by changing one number in the data files. [...]
It is admittedly a little more complicated to boost your creations' speeds, but if this was being handled in a hardcoded way, I don't see how it could be too hard.

I wasn't talking about changing the speed. I was talking about running. It would look pretty awkward if the PC and his or her creations just slide across the zone. Running PCs and creations, however, means a lot(!) more graphics for smooth running animation. I seriously doubt Jeff would implement something like this unless it would look right.

@ Kelandon: Life is full of surprises.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Liking A4 and G3 more than most of the other Avernums and Geneforges? I mean, A4 was a good game, sure, but I didn't think that there was anyone out there who would like it more than the others.

I never played Jeff's games before A4 and G4. I love A4. Love A4. I like it better than A1-3 because I can play it. I don't like the character movement in the older games, which is really the bottom line. If you can't move your guys around without getting annoyed, then you're not going to enjoy the game.

I don't particularly dislike the graphics on the older games. I think someone in an earlier post pointed out that there's a divide between keyboard people and mouse people. I'm a mouse person. I'm not going to stick with a game if I have to maneuver step by step with the keys.

Plus it seems like there are some features in the older games -- eating, for example -- that would detract from my enjoyment. I don't like too much practical stuff. I'm also not crazy about the scale switching when you enter a town. It seems more epic to be in the wilderness and see civilization right in the middle of it.

But who cares? Some of us will rejoice when/if Jeff re-releases the older games with the new interface, and some of us won't be so interested.

[Edited to change examples of things I think are too practical.]

[Slawbug]

The other significant variable here is play order. All of Jeff's games are good games, so most people who like this kind of RPG will like whichever game they play first. However, it can be hard to take a "step down"... and what constitutes a step down is different for different people. Avernum-style movement or scale-switching could be a step down for some. Conversely, I think the lack of scale-switching was one of the most maligned things about A4, by older players; they had spent 10 years imagining Exile/Avernum as this huge expansive place, and suddenly it seemed really tiny. Similarly, A4's plot seems shallow and boring to players coming from A2; but for the genre, it's pretty standard, so it isn't going to turn off new players.

 

However, I do think it's possible to identify incontrovertible successes that please some people without displeasing anybody else. The movement in A4/5, for example, pleases the mouse people, while the keyboard people have (mostly) all the options they did in older games.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
The movement in A4/5, for example, pleases the mouse people, while the keyboard people have (mostly) all the options they did in older games.

No. Moving with the keyboard in A4/5 is considerably more awkward than it was in A1-3.

[Evnissyen]

Yeah, at least in A5 (don't remember if I tried it in A4): the keyboard system is pretty messed up and confusing. I mean, why do you have to press 7, for example, to move to the left, rather than 4?

 

Another problem with the older games was talking to people and opening and grabbing stuff. Why have to type a letter every time I want to do one of these things? I'd rather just point and click.

 

Disappearer suggested one of the things I think I meant when (I think) I asked this in the first place: the reasons why people who prefer the old games prefer the old games... . I think I was wondering if the old games had more complicated plots... . Nethergate didn't, exactly, that was more of a wander-around-and-do-things sort of game. And rather than making the dale look huge: the travel screen made the dale look tiny.

 

It does seem to me that A5 is more complicated than A4 was, which is good.

[Slawbug]

It's not an issue of complicated plot, it's an issue of atmosphere, of creating an internally consistent, believable, interesting world in which a story can be set. E/A 2 and Nethergate were both steeped in atmosphere.

 

A4 received a lot of criticism for breaking this atmosphere. Between the invention of Exile and the release of A4, 40 years passed in game time and 10 years passed in real time. Things changed in the game world but more importantly they changed in the mind of its creator. But in between we had a decade of remakes where the story and atmosphere didn't change, so A4's focus on petty, colonial-era immigrants (as opposed to brave, collaborative Exiles) came as a bit of a shock. The change in presentation of scale really was drastic, mainly in the Eastern Gallery and the Great Cave; towns that previously were multiple map screens apart and just felt extremely distant became ten character widths apart. The use of sound effects and graphics that longtime Spiderweb users immediately associated with other worlds (Geneforge) did not help. (The original A4 chitrach graphic was actually the Geneforge clawbug graphic, which looked very little like the chitrachs from E/A 2.) Having a simple and predictable plot, drawn out like the most unbearable Dickens novel, was just the nail in the coffin.

 

All this is not to bash on A4, but to present the reasons older fans prefer the older games. Keyboard control, while potentially frustrating for some, is not the main issue.

[Evnissyen]

I think there was some mention of the earlier versions of Avernum 'making sense'. I've been going through the earlier games... and from a very cursory look, I can see that the Exile series 'makes sense' in the sense that it's about as basic as you can get for a graphics-based RPG. Sort of stripping it down as much as possible, notwithstanding I've sort of played out my interest in such games long, long ago. Avernum seems to be an attempt to modernize, due to the times, Exile to some new notion, maybe, of what 'retro' means, and comparatively they don't 'make sense' because the 3d graphics are too primitive, they're incomplete. Not until Geneforge does the 3d gameplay begin to 'make sense'.

 

I could be... and probably am... wrong on more than one of the above. But... when I go through them more closely I guess I'll start a new thread.

 

Oh, yeah, and from a very cursory look: A3 seems to be a remake of E3. Again: This all requires further research... experimentation. I'll keep in touch.

[Slawbug]

A1-3 are all remakes of E1-3 with all the same text and slightly different versions of the same maps, towns, characters and enemies.