Avernum 6 Discussion

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
It's been a long time since you knew any children, hasn't it? Believe me: whatever we talk about, those little vermin will think up something worse on their own.

No, it hasn't. And this is the sort of reply that is valid for anything, isn't it? Or do you actually think children don't know how to use obscene language? Pleeeease.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Locmaar:

Keeping this in mind and with all due respect to the resourcefulness and knowledgability of certain members: do you actually think it appropriate for the aforementioned audience to read gory details about what kind of wounds which type of weapon inflicts?

I think that Avernum is an extremely violent game, as are the vast majority of popular PC games, though it is less gory than most of those. I think that the balance between reality and playability is central to the design of any game, and that the effects of the real-world counterparts of the game weaponry are directly relevant to that balance. I think that the discussion on this thread was not unnecessarily graphic. It was actually quite technical.

Avernum is a game in which the heroes kill other living things, human and non-, with great frequency. The setting is explicitly dangerous and insecure. The NPCs starve, kill, rob, torture, and repress each other. Given that, I don't think that a discussion of what such activity might mean in the real world is at all inappropriate.

Finally, I think that it is that mother's job to monitor her child's Internet use, and to decide for herself what is and is not appropriate. We're not vulgar on this board, and it's rare that anyone posts something offensive -- and if they did, the moderators would nuke it. The discussion that's been going on was appropriate for this forum and not any kind of a danger to children, parents, or, for that matter, to Spiderweb.

[Edited for clarity.]

[4dams]

NPCs reactions shouldn't be just faction based. There should be something like NPC reactions based on the fact what races are represented in your party.

(mostly influencing talking options and barter prices)

eg: It would have been nice to talk to the slith in khora-vyss or what was the name of the place instead of just wiping the floor with them.

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:
... Finally, I think that it is that mother's job to monitor her child's Internet use, and to decide for herself what is and is not appropriate. We're not vulgar on this board, and it's rare that anyone posts something offensive -- and if they did, the moderators would nuke it. The discussion that's been going on was appropriate for this forum and not any kind of a danger to children, parents, or, for that matter, to Spiderweb.

I knew this was going to happen.

madrigan: please don't think I'm too thick to understand what kind of game Avernum is. Nor that I particularly care if somebody might be offended by reading what a modern rifle wound does to body tissue. I find all of this interesting enough, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

What annoys me is this: that using profane language causes offence to people who would willingly wade through the intestines of corpses to unearth what kind of havoc a military gizmo has
wreaked there.

And, no, I don't want to use foul language either. I think it breaks down any sort of civilised discussion. But the argument against the use of swear words that was proffered was, amongst others, children and mothers might browse these boards and be turned away. To me, this sounds like bigotry, if you catch my drift.

On a different note: I have participated in many discussions myself, how to create a 'realistic' combat system without rendering a game unplayable. I think it was during the days of D&D (no 'A', no special edition) when somebody brought Rolemaster along, saying we should adapt their combat system. Well, we tried for a while, before spending months and months of developing our own system.

To me the way Jeff handles combat in his games is a good compromise of quality, depth and playability. Balancing a very detailed system could prove fiendishly difficult for him, and since he needs to get one game per year out, I don't see how he's going to do that.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Alright fellas, I think that's enough. The discussion was over already, anyway. Please return to the topic. Plot and stuff, you know.

[nikki.]

The new Imperial fortress, which I'm assuming belonged to Dorikos (yeah, not finished A5 - it got boring) becomes a new Fort Avernum, and the caves are once again used as a prison...

 

Reasoning? In Avernum 3, one of the Crystal Souls in Ghikra talks about Ouroboros, and I think it'd be nice if, as Jeff wrote that, he had the idea for the second trilogy in his mind, and was setting up little links in case he ever needed them.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Nikki.:
The new Imperial fortress, which I'm assuming belonged to Dorikos (yeah, not finished A5 - it got boring) becomes a new Fort Avernum, and the caves are once again used as a prison...

Oh, no! I hope this doesn't happen. What a sad, hopeless ending.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Speaking of Ouroboros - if the Empire was to subject Avernum again, I don't think they would do it in the same fashion as before.

 

In RL, a capitalist economy needs people to work and people to buy their products. Because the companies in a capitalist society compete with each other, they must lower their prices so people buy their products rather than others', which means that they have to lower their production costs, ergo lower the wages of their workers or make their workers more effective. If that is done, these workers who are either unemployed or earn less money can't buy as many products anymore, causing a problem for the companies, who must find a way to enlarge their profit again. You see my point.

 

Alright, I don't want to start an economical, political or philosophical discussion here - I just wanted to illustrate my thought:

The Empire would break down if it would stay the way it is. Like any capitalist economy, it must expand. Expand where? Into Avernum.

 

Now I'd really don't like any RL-class war-feeling of that kind in A6, but I think that would be the logical point to start our thoughts about it's plot. If the Empire took hold of Avernum in an economic way - say through the what's-it-called-trading-company, how would the Avernites react? There would definately be some (rich) people who would ally with the Empire, or think that they would bring them prosperity. And then, there would be some who want to avoid the Empire's snare. Maybe this majority(?) of the Avernites would look to the Vahnatai? Blah.

 

Oh, I don't know. Actually, I'd just like to break some demon's face like in A1. Maybe Grah-Hoth had a daddy?

[Randomizer]

Avernum started out as a penal colony. A place for the Empire to dump undesirables where they and/or demons could kill each other off.

 

Now that there are some valuable resources down here, the Empire is getting into commerce. However in order to increase profits, they want to cut out the middlemen and get as close to the source as possible. The next game could have elements where the Empire is brought in to eliminate Avernites that control these resources. Also it allows the Empire a place to expand with citizens loyal to them that need land.

[Upon Mars.]

But the empire has to seriously think about it going at war, for isn't the best solution. Deporting the worms to the surface and make them forget the past would be a good idea. It would become more political than strait or gorilla warfare.

[Evnissyen]

You're all forgetting the Vahnatai. They want their caves back, which means destroying Avernum or the Empire or preferably both. More than likely they want war between the Empire and Avernum. Why else coerce an Empire warrior into questionable actions in relation to the Avernites?

 

The Empire, now that they see monetary value in the caves, will not be satisfied until the entire underground -- including the Vahnatai's lands -- are theirs. That means war. Better for the Vahnatai if they provoke the Empire and Avernum to wear each other down, first. That will make it easier if the Vahnatai wish to invade the surface again -- or at least force a blockade against any further Empire infiltration -- which they must do if they hope to survive.

[madrigan]

I'm not sure that Avernum or the Empire have a capitalist economy the way we think of it. They both have archaic systems overall. Modern financial institutions are only in the larval stage. All merchants buy things for the same price, but sell for different prices -- yet everyone knows exactly how much things are actually worth and how expensive different merchants are compared to the others.

 

I realize that these are the simplified mechanics of a game, but it is the system they have. There's a hereditary monarchy in the caves, and a tyranny on the surface, but really, the Avernite government is just a military. Meanwhile the economy is almost a complete information system, but without any regulation whatsoever. My point is that our ideas about modern capitalist economies do not apply completely to the economic system in the game. They don't even have money -- everything is bought and sold for the actual equivalent in metal coins.

 

Meanwhile, the vahnatai have sort of a communist system, or maybe a quasi-theocracy. They have the odd merchant, but they seem to only exchange with outsiders.

 

I think that it is interesting to consider how the odd economics of the game world would affect the behavior of the odd governments.

 

Is there evidence that the Empire actual has any resource problems, at all? It controls the entire surface of a planet. It's hard for me to accept that they are interested in conquering such an unpleasant place for some mushrooms and lizard skins. There are the crystals, but non-vahnatai magic doesn't seem to require them.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Capitalism evolved under late feudalism, and money is anything you can use to trade for everything else. Coins or stones or whatever. The fundamental mechanics of capitalism definately apply for the economies of Avernum and the Empire (not sure about how the Vahnatai organise things when they're on their own). So the problem for the Empire is not related to resources, will say the resources on the surface can't have become too expensive to use in production - the laborers have. Or at least, they will at a certain point.

 

I don't think the Empire would be interested in annexing the whole underworld in a crusade. They would only conquer (if they were forced to declare war) whatever they're capable of maintaining. In A5, it seems clear that they're still decades away from an efficient exploitation of the regions of Avernum they're already evolved in.

 

Avernum isn't interested in conquering anyone, they're just pissed off because everybody attacks them all the time and have become a little paranoid.

 

The Vahnatai are definately paranoid, and want their land back. Still, not all of them are evil geniuses.

 

Seeing this situation, I'd say that the Vahnatai would try to conjure a conflict between the Empire and Avernum, and then a kind of 3-front-war would arise. Minor fractions in the Empire/Avernum communtiy could also trigger something similar. Maybe that would be a good setting. Everybody is nervous about the possibly coming war(s), and the Empire-Avernum-Vahnatai relations are extremely tense and complicated.

 

And YOU have to decide in what direction you want to kick the rock.

 

(I'm never sure about how to translate German sayings)

 

*COUGHCOUGH* playable vahnatai pcs *COUGH*

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
Capitalism evolved under late feudalism, and money is anything you can use to trade for everything else. Coins or stones or whatever. The fundamental mechanics of capitalism definately apply for the economies of Avernum and the Empire

I should have said that they don't have fiat money -- which alone makes their system rather archaic. I think you'll agree that if all product sales have to be paid for in metal in the actual value of the exchange, this makes a modern capitalist system impossible. All financial reserves have to be held in metal or gemstones. There is no credit, and there is exactly one company issuing stock.

My point is that, given the above and the other unusual characteristics of the economy that I mentioned, it is very difficult to speculate as to how states or people will behave. It's a situation that has never existed, neither mercantilist nor capitalist.

Anyway, I'm sure the new game will not be called Avernum 6: The Means of Production. It's safe to say that the economy in Avernum 6 will work exactly the same way as it has previously.

Edited to add: I think there is no possible way we'll see vahnatai PCs. They're just too different from the present PC races. I'd play an Unstable Mass PC, though. "You very slowly, gently creep into town, fearing for your life lest you bump into a passerby."

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:
Meanwhile, the vahnatai have sort of a communist system, or maybe a quasi-theocracy. They have the odd merchant, but they seem to only exchange with outsiders.

Really? A2 is the only game in which you see vahnatai at home, and there are definitely merchants and shops in cities built by vahnatai and for vahnatai, and which aren't exactly expecting human visitors.

A3-A5 only have vahnatai emissaries, military expeditions, and fortresses. It's not surprising that among themselves they're cooperative and to outsiders they're mercantile. They have strong bonds among themselves.

—Alorael, who also wouldn't be too sure that all money is based on interchangeable coins in Avernum. All minted money probably comes in two or maybe even one type: the Empire would standardize its coinage, and Avernum may or may not make its own. Adventurers are likely to demand such cash payments, however, as the most useful wherever they go. Merchants, officials, and other more stable people can rely on a less barter-based system.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Vagrancy - Inquire Within:
—Alorael, who also wouldn't be too sure that all money is based on interchangeable coins in Avernum. All minted money probably comes in two or maybe even one type: the Empire would standardize its coinage, and Avernum may or may not make its own. Adventurers are likely to demand such cash payments, however, as the most useful wherever they go. Merchants, officials, and other more stable people can rely on a less barter-based system.

Exile 1's documentation explicitly stated that your "gold" count was an abstract measure for the total value of your various barterable goods. Admittedly, Avernum's economy may have developed since then, but it's pretty clear that it hasn't been all that long since it ran on a barter system.

By the way, if the Vahnatai want humans out of Avernum, wouldn't they actually have an interest in fostering good relations between Avernum and the Empire, so that the Avernites can (with a bit of "encouragement" from the Vahnatai) return to the surface and be reintegrated with the Empire?

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Vagrancy - Inquire Within:

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:
Meanwhile, the vahnatai have sort of a communist system, or maybe a quasi-theocracy. They have the odd merchant, but they seem to only exchange with outsiders.

Really? A2 is the only game in which you see vahnatai at home, and there are definitely merchants and shops in cities built by vahnatai and for vahnatai, and which aren't exactly expecting human visitors.

A3-A5 only have vahnatai emissaries, military expeditions, and fortresses. It's not surprising that among themselves they're cooperative and to outsiders they're mercantile. They have strong bonds among themselves.

I agree that it is not surprising that the vahnatai would be outwardly mercantile and inwardly cooperative. The most obvious economic unit that works this way is the human family -- to varying degrees.

The only vahnatai town I've "been to" is in A5, and they had the one merchant, who apparently only did business with passing adventurers.

[Slawbug]

Also, the bulk of the Vahnatai we've met (in A2-A4) are from the Olgai tribe. The Vahnatai town in A5 is of a different tribe. A2 makes clear that there are big differences among the different tribes.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Vagrancy - Inquire Within:
—Alorael, who also wouldn't be too sure that all money is based on interchangeable coins in Avernum. All minted money probably comes in two or maybe even one type: the Empire would standardize its coinage, and Avernum may or may not make its own. Adventurers are likely to demand such cash payments, however, as the most useful wherever they go. Merchants, officials, and other more stable people can rely on a less barter-based system.

Exile 1's documentation explicitly stated that your "gold" count was an abstract measure for the total value of your various barterable goods. Admittedly, Avernum's economy may have developed since then, but it's pretty clear that it hasn't been all that long since it ran on a barter system.

It's true that adventurers are likely to come across and use all kinds of valuables in their travels. Because Avernum has a heavily adventurer-based economy (apparently), merchants therefore need to accept non-standard goods regularly. That doesn't mean Avernum doesn't have standard coins, though, or use the Empire's currency as its standard. It just means everyone needs to be a little flexible about mysterious ancient disks of electrum that are probably worth, oh, 18 coins each.

—Alorael, who has noticed that Avernum might as well start using crystals as its currency. They seem to be everywhere now, don't they?

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

However the case, the economies in Avernum are capitalist. Since there are people possessing the social means of production and pay others to work for them, they make their profit by paying these people less than their labor is actually worth and by selling their goods for a higher price than they are actually worth, there can be no talk of whether we're talking of capitalism or something else.

There is neither slavery nor a feudalism-like land-owning system to be found in Avernum. (Please spare me from single contra-examples)

 

Anyway, my comment had the sole purpose of determining what the Empire's most pressing interests in Avernum are.

 

I find Thuryl's suggestion interesting too, though. Maybe the Vahnatai tribes would disagree upon whether Avernum and should be driven back to the surface more or less peacefully or by simply annihilating it's population.

[Randomizer]

From A5 talks with the Vahnatai, you get the understanding that they don't approve of the other tribes attacks. It probably is less to do with attacking, than the methods use. After all they hire you to expel Muck to regain crystal grounds that are sacred to them. They also have plans to remove Highground that don't need you.

 

It appears that the Vahnatai tribes rotate control of the underground caves. Originally it was implied that the Resting was to allow caves to recover, but it now appears that each tribe takes a turn occupying the caves so that the population can grow.

 

There was in A3 that the Vahnatai reached the surface with the resting chamber that you find up north. So they may want that back too.

[Slawbug]

It wasn't implied that the Resting is for the caves to recover; it was explicitly and repeatedly stated. But again, this could be a viewpoint difference of two different tribes.

[Kays]

I would like to explore the empire again, and see some expansions to it. I would also like to see what happened to those crazy ol troglodytes.

 

For Avernum 6, I believe Jeff already wrote a really good potential story line: the overcrowding of Avernum. What I could see initially is squabbling and infighting in Avernum. As resources become more and more scarce, groups begin to get violent again.

 

Then, in the middle of it all a great catastrophy occurs: the caves themselves, turn on all the avernites. Seeing as the caves are magical, I thought now would be a good time to introduce what makes them magical. I'll call this driving force the 'originals'. Anyways, the originals find that their avernum is being torn up, and decide to teach everyone in avernum a lesson.

 

I thought it would be interesting to introduce a new enemy: fungus! There is fungus everywhere, which would make this type of enemy really unpredictable and frightening for the cave dwellers. Think how you would feel if the food you tried to grow suddenly became smart and tried to kill you. Anyways, the originals use their magic to warp various fungal growths in avernum. They use the fungal growths to attack avernites etc etc

 

Using undead would make sense as well etc etc

 

I thought the above might be interesting, and if anyone thinks so I can extend it.

[Ociporus]

The ability to play the game on a higher resolution. It's been the same for ages. Why not be able to play at, say, 1280x1024 or 1680x1050? See more of the area, etc.

 

I also wish you could get the "ultimate spells" and actually use them for more of the game. Just when you hit your peak, you retire? I don't think so! But that's what happens now.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Ociporus:
I also wish you could get the "ultimate spells" and actually use them for more of the game. Just when you hit your peak, you retire? I don't think so! But that's what happens now.

This comes up frequently for both spells and the most powerful equipment, but it's unlikely to happen. Advancement is a major carrot in Avernum, particularly in the end when advancing skills costs so many skill points and gives such small benefits that it doesn't seem so thrilling anymore. Creating a long plateau of static spells and gear would be a bad thing.

—Alorael, who could only see that working if there were also a very long stretch at the end something like the vahnatai lands in A3: one very extended ending portion of the game that are more a test of your endurance than a chance for you to advance.

[Goldengirl]

My thoughts on Ermarian economy

[Ociporus]

What do you guys think about using more of the screen for either visual information or showing more area? Who really uses the small screen size for which the game has been made?

[Slawbug]

I think memory management is part of the reason the screen size has to stay reasonable. Judging by Eschalon's ridiculous problems in that area, I'm glad Jeff is more conservative.

[Randomizer]

Eschalon's problems come from the way the program that generates the lower level programming makes graphics calls. There are inefficiencies that Jeff avoids by his direct writing in C++ that weren't addressed in Eschalon. They hope to get these fixed in the next game.

 

Window size occurs because Jeff reuses code and took most from games written for older systems.

[Ociporus]

Well, this is a "wish list" sort of discussion...and I wish A6 has a larger screen target. Being a computer programmer myself I understand that there are some issues Jeff may not want to worry about. But I wish...

 

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

Eschalon's problems come from the way the program that generates the lower level programming makes graphics calls. There are inefficiencies that Jeff avoids by his direct writing in C++ that weren't addressed in Eschalon. They hope to get these fixed in the next game.

 

Window size occurs because Jeff reuses code and took most from games written for older systems.

[Naldiin]

Hrm. Honestly, plotwise, I'd like to see a war. A true, all our war, Exile/Avernum 2 style, where there are drawn battle-lines, some infiltration, etc. I rather enjoyed that.

 

But I'd have to guess that I won't get my wish. So far, there's fairly little plot-retread. Although an imperial civil war could be fun, but that would mean being on the surface.

 

As much as I like the surface, Avernum 6, closing the second trilogy, should probably be where it all began.

[Grimm]

I'd like to see Avernum start a turf war with itself. There are now so many people that the amount of beliefs/religions/lifestyles among general population must be exponential.That and the resources are dwindling. You'd think that a civil war would break out, with both the Empire and Vahnatai egging Avernum on, since both want the caves back.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Grimm:
I'd like to see Avernum start a turf war with itself. There are now so many people that the amount of beliefs/religions/lifestyles among general population must be exponential.That and the resources are dwindling. You'd think that a civil war would break out, with both the Empire and Vahnatai egging Avernum on, since both want the caves back.

I like this idea, but who would the PCs be? What would be the overall mission?

[Cheeseball-Seven]

The PCs would be trying to stop the war...by beating stuff up!

 

That being said, I would like to see an ancient progenitor race who made the caves, or the return of Undead Mecha-Hawthorne, or both.

 

More gameplay-wise, more single-target spells at higher levels would be nice. The fact that everything becomes AoE when you hit high levels is kinda annoying and odd...

[Phazer]

Quote:

Originally written by madrigan:

Quote:

Originally written by Grimm:
I'd like to see Avernum start a turf war with itself. There are now so many people that the amount of beliefs/religions/lifestyles among general population must be exponential.That and the resources are dwindling. You'd think that a civil war would break out, with both the Empire and Vahnatai egging Avernum on, since both want the caves back.

I like this idea, but who would the PCs be? What would be the overall mission?

Keeping all sides balanced. PC as Monitor. Member of a secret Agency so secret it doesn't even know who it is. You for and against all sides, playing off one against another and as long as no side wins or loses, you win.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Phazer:

Keeping all sides balanced. PC as Monitor. Member of a secret Agency so secret it doesn't even know who it is. You for and against all sides, playing off one against another and as long as no side wins or loses, you win.

I don't know. It doesn't sound like an apt ending to the saga. I like it as a general game concept, or maybe as a subquest. But I think the standards of heroic fantasy demand that the task be bold and the ending be spectacular, not subtle.

[Grimm]

I was thinking the PCs were from a town in the northern frontier. They'd be indifferent to the the power struggles because of the distance from civilization.

 

Then they would be sent out to figure out why no-one is sending out additional supplies. They'd realize that supplies were being intercepted for personal use becuase civil war was about to break out, while picking up hints about external influence. They'd go to the castle, and all the hints they found would be proved.

 

They would then be sent to scout out this external influence while helping the different states of avernum solve there problems with each other. It would all end with a battle with a general of the external influence's army, while a large battle is happening throughout Avernum, the surface and waking Vahnatai clans.

 

Or, you could discover the external influence and decide to join them, for one reason or another. But then there would have to be more than hints of the External Influence. There would have to be some communication with some members, and attempted conscription.

[Mah Al Ibara]

I think Grimm brought up a crucial factor that is almost certain to be the raison d'être of Avernum 6: overpopulation and scarcity in Avernum. It is mentioned again and again in Avernum 5. What would make sense is a civil war within Avernum, perhaps between those in "central" Avernum and those in "frontier" Avernum. (In a sense, this is what happened in the U.S. Civil War: it was the inevitable result of complex tensions that had always existed between the established "civilization" of the Northeast and those in the frontier to the West and South.) And obviously the Vahatnai would work to encourage anything that would reduce the Avernum population, and Redmark, who is hardly an Avernite-lover, would certainly want to take advantage of the chaos, though probably not through direct military confrontation. But it's hard to imagine a happy ending here, unless half the Avernum population is somehow inspired to immigrate to the surface (or Avernites somehow learn the Vahatnai trick of hibernation--but that would hardly make for a thrilling finale).

[Slawbug]

The U.S. Civil War was definitely not between "established civilization" and the "frontier". For one thing, the South was anything but frontier by the 1860's. Additionally, most of the Southern states were first settled in similar time frames as the Northeastern states. And the actual frontier, the West, consisted entirely of Union-loyal states and territories, with the sole exception of Texas.

[Mah Al Ibara]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

The U.S. Civil War was definitely not between "established civilization" and the "frontier". For one thing, the South was anything but frontier by the 1860's. Additionally, most of the Southern states were first settled in similar time frames as the Northeastern states. And the actual frontier, the West, consisted entirely of Union-loyal states and territories, with the sole exception of Texas.

I should have been clearer in my analogy. The basic tension between the manufacturing-based, densely populated Northeast and the rest of the country, which was agriculturally-based and scarcely populated, existed from the time of the Federalist Papers, and was reflected in such events as the glossing over of the slavery issue in the Constitutional Convention of 1787, the Whiskey Rebellion of the early 1790s, and the Missouri Compromise of 1820. Obviously, the boundaries of the "center/periphery" divide shifted (or rather were fixed at the Mason-Dixon line) by the time of the outbreak the Civil War, but while the central issue had become slavery, the root causes were these old tensions that predated the Missouri Compromise.

Maybe it's a lousy analogy, but the point I wanted to make was about the center/periphery tension that has become so clear in Avernum V, and would certainly play a central role in Avernum VI. I didn't mean to start a debate about the American Civil War.

[Rowen]

My hope for Avernum 6 is a large epic game that starts you off playing the first chapter as a vahnatia in the lower caves that was left awake after the newest sleeping. You discuver that your lands are being invaded by creatures from farther below the caves and while your people are sleeping these invaders kill them. You manage to escape and enter Avernite lands.

 

Chapter 2 starts off with you now playing a party for the Avernum army that is in a civil war over the space in the caves. A lone vahnatia enters their lands and and tries to warn them of the invaders from below but the Avernites are so wrapped up in their civil war that they don't listen until these invaders take over the Avernite caves.

 

The remaining people in the caves are forced to retreat to the surface, starting chapter 3, and the Empire is not happy to see them under the sun. You play this chapter as Empire soldiers in part of keeping the Avernites under control on the surface only to find that the surface is soon invaded by these creatures also. The Empire, Avernum, and a few Vahnatia that managed to escape the caves join together to fight back these creatures.

 

Chapter 4 is where the surface is cleaned up and the creatures are pushed back into the caves. During all the fighting you will encounter your other charecters from earlier in the game now being used as npc's to help in the fighting.

 

Chapter 5 is where you retake the Avernite lands in the cave and are now once again playing as the Avernite party you had before. After retaking the caves with the help of the Empire the leaders of the Avernites, Empire, and the Vahnatia meet together and decide to try to lure the rest of the creatures to the Avernite caves to destroy them. As they do this they want to send a small army into the lowest caves to kill any remaining creatures that might escape. This party will be the Vahnatia, Avernite, and Empire parties that you played in chapters 1, 2, and 3 only now some of them will be npc's that travel with you.

 

Chapter 6 is where you travel to the lowest caves and hunt out these creatures and discover the true and original masters of the caves that your people are now inhabiting.

 

Over all they game should be about uniting the three nations into one for a common cause, to stay alive.

[Nioca]

Meh. It sounds a bit too close to A3 and A4, personally. Also, unification between those three civilizations will never happen. Ever.

 

I'd like a departure from the current formula of things. Every single Avernum had a main villain that was a power-hungry jerk which the party needed to kill, and whom waited in their tower/fortress right up until the party needed to fight them. A1 had Hawthorne. A2 had Garzahd. A3 and A4 had Rentar-Ihrno, though she somewhat broke this mold. A5 had Dorikas. I'd like for A6 to have a bit more complexity to the villain, and to maybe have the party and the villain show down a few times before the final confrontation.

[Mysterious Man]

I kind of like the idea of Avernum getting the you-know-what knocked out of it, with the survivors taking refuge in Upper Exile and maybe part of the surface world. You'd start off the game as a diplomat taking an important letter to Krizsan, one begging the Empire for aid. You do the correspondence thing between Avernum and the Empire for a little while, with Anaximander calling the shots. The Empire refuses help until you walk into Krizsan and find half the city a smoldering ruin... and then... uh. I'll get back to you.

[Slawbug]

Garzahd did show down with the party once before the end, at Ornotha Ziggurat.

[Randomizer]

But Garzahd was unkillable in that encounter. I prefer the A5 idea that you can kill an NPC and have it's equivalent rank appear later. What happens in dialog options depends upon your earlier actions. There are consequences for going all out in killing people.

 

Like when you destroy Epirion-Bok in Thalants and a message appears suggestion you don't mention this incident to General Redmark.

 

Jeff said that Melanchion will be back in A6 so maybe with decreasing living spaces down in Avernum it will be war between those that have and those that want.

[Slawbug]

That does not work with NPCs for whom there is no equivalent rank, and Garzahd certainly falls in that category. In A5, you can kill Ruth before the end, but you can't kill Dorikas before the end. Because then, you would reach the end before you reach the end!

[Rowen]

I would like to see the return of Grah-Hoth.

 

Edit: Maybe he could be the one behind my earlier idea in the attack on the three nations.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I prefer bosses that you can fight multiple times throughout the game. Master Hodge is a good example of this. He seems to be quite an underrated character, as he underwent a transformation that really defined what canisters can do to a person over time, for me at least. I apologize for the example being from the wrong game for this particular forum.

 

I agree that people who are optionally killable are good as well. I feel like killing Epiron-Bok should have perhaps had an effecting on the game's ending, though, even if it were just one or two lines.

[Evnissyen]

Or perhaps A6 should be about all the various factions gradually convincing the protagonist(s) that all is hopeless and that assuming any heroic position whatsoever is pointless and therefore not heroic at all but a fool's errand, that it doesn't matter which faction you support or don't support because all will inevitably end in pain, misery, and destruction. You win when you kill yourself.

 

[Sudanna]

Only if drug overdose is an option.