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(Possible spoilage?) Less helpful skills to train in


Evnissyen

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...At least up to a point.

 

I've suspected this in previous Spiderweb games, but now with the character editor I'm sure... that it's really only the special points that are truly helpful . . . best example: a very high level of Gymnastics seems to make a character nearly invulnerable to attack.

 

I have, of course, noticed that my mage's mage spells, because of higher level training, are more effective than my priests -- and vice versa -- even though they've the same in Magery.

 

But I've stopped spending on Spellcraft in favor of Magery... For my fighter I've stopped spending on Strength & Melee in favor of Blademaster (and the higher fighting disciplines seem to require too many battle skill points), and I've left Dexterity in favor of Gymnastics. I'm wondering: Is it still worth it to spend on Strength & Melee? Going through the editor it doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

 

I don't know; maybe now that I've got a sword that actually delivers significant damage, maybe I'll try going through the editor again to see if I can determine what differences matter.

 

I like the Quick Action very much... twin blows appeal to me; but I don't see much value in Quick Strike, it just doesn't seem as useful. Maybe when monsters start getting in the first strike more consistently; they almost never do.

 

Two things: I wish Hardiness (and Resistance especially) made a larger difference in your resistances; and I wish Endurance had a larger effect. Gaining just a few extra endurance points at level 30 just doesn't feel right to me. In terms of point compilation, I think maybe it should follow the example of Intelligence.

 

...although with Gymnastics, Endurance seems less important, now. Especially when my fighter's using bladeshield.

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Spellcraft and Magery do exactly the same thing, so there's no reason not to just buy whatever's cheaper at the time.

 

Strength is mostly important for encumbrance, and I ended up putting a couple of points on my mages near the end of the game because some more armour would improve them more than another point of Spellcraft. Melee Weapons and Pole Weapons are probably only worth getting up to level 6 to unlock the special skills: melee fighters are more important in a defensive role than as damage-dealers.

 

Dexterity and Gymnastics are both only useful on the lower difficulty levels, since on Torment everything hits all the time anyway. This makes Endurance very important, of course; even with Parry and Bladeshield, you're going to be hit often and hard on Torment, and you need to be able to survive a lot of damage. There are enemies later in the game that can hit you for upwards of 200 points of damage.

 

Quick Strike is good mostly for the potential action point bonus: it's possible to get your fighter to reliably attack three times per round with the right skills and gear.

 

Hardiness isn't bad, since it's so cheap: getting at least 2 points for everybody is painless. Resistance isn't worth spending skill points on but it's worth paying for if you have the money for the trainer.

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So, how useful is Strength in regard to increasing the power of your attacks. Through the character editor I don't remember finding it very useful.

 

Same with Melee: In know you've responded to this already, but I'm looking for actual percentages, I guess. I want to increase my fighter's damage as much as possible, so: How helpful excactly are Melee points except to give access to Blademaster and combat disciplines?

 

Right now my fighter has only 8 in Melee, Str 7 and Dex 12, but his Blademaster is currently 8. His attack damage, except with the fiery sword, is usually quite pathetic, which I think I remember being diff't from A4 (in which it was the Archers' damage which was always pathetic and could never increase, even with the best bows + Dex + Bows + Sharpshooter.

 

By the way: Which of the above (Dex, Str, Melee) are the most helpful in calculating damage? Now that defense is less of a problem I'm less concerned w/ Gymnastics & Parry and more concerned w/ immediate damage.

 

And in regard to Quick Action: Is there a point at which it's not worthwhile invesing in this trait? I'm currently at 13, but there're still many instances when my fighter doesn't double strike. (Woe is I.) I guess this is probably a dumb question, since I suppose I know the answer: until I always hit double.

 

For spellcasters: Exactly how helpful is investing in Mage or Priest spells? Is Magery & Spellcraft more beneficial (disregarding characters who invest in both M & P skills... assume it's a character investing in just one)? Exactly how helpful is it to spend in M or P after you've attained the level necessary to get a certain spell?

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Quote:
Originally written by Clavicle:
So, how useful is Strength in regard to increasing the power of your attacks. Through the character editor I don't remember finding it very useful.

Same with Melee: In know you've responded to this already, but I'm looking for actual percentages, I guess. I want to increase my fighter's damage as much as possible, so: How helpful excactly are Melee points except to give access to Blademaster and combat disciplines?
Divide your weapon's maximum damage by its minimum damage to get its die size. Every point of Strength or the appropriate weapon skill adds one die of damage. For example, if you have a sword that does 10-30 damage, its die size is 3. Every point of Strength or Melee Weapons will add an extra 1-3 damage per hit.

Quote:
And in regard to Quick Action: Is there a point at which it's not worthwhile invesing in this trait? I'm currently at 13, but there're still many instances when my fighter doesn't double strike. (Woe is I.) I guess this is probably a dumb question, since I suppose I know the answer: until I always hit double.
That's probably enough. I think your chance of getting a double attack maxes out at a certain point, probably around 50%. I don't know why Jeff did this: melee has never been too powerful.

Quote:
For spellcasters: Exactly how helpful is investing in Mage or Priest spells? Is Magery & Spellcraft more beneficial (disregarding characters who invest in both M & P skills... assume it's a character investing in just one)? Exactly how helpful is it to spend in M or P after you've attained the level necessary to get a certain spell?
A point of Mage Spells or Priest Spells is exactly equal to a point of Magery or Spellcraft in terms of its effects on spell power, and all of the above are exactly equal to an extra level of a spell.
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Thanks, Thuryl. That's helpful. Especially regarging the weapon hit #'s.

 

Anyhow... I think I remember another beta tester on this board (or was it Matt Pasek's walkthrough?) suggesting that spell level training is less significant than spellcraft, magery or Mage/Priest casting skill... are you sure they're all exactly equal?

 

And... do you know if there's a point at which any of these max out, as you say? The walkthrough suggests that Mage/Priest casting level is only significant up to the level you need to learn a spell, and that anything higher is useless. Does each of those skills stop assisting you after 18?

 

The walkthrough also suggested that one shouldn't train in more than one point in a spell... is that because, after three points (which are gained, of course, from spellbooks) there's no more benefit? Or is it still worthwhile to buy extra points in a certain spell if I happen to have the extra $$?

 

And do you know if there's a point at which spellcraft maxes out in beneficiality?

 

...in fact... if there's a max-out point with these, then I should logically be able to add together all the numbers of the above, so that I can say that if they all add up to, say, 40, then investing more points in any of those skills is a waste of points?

 

Looking at the walkthrough again, it suggests "8 dexterity is all you'll ever need"... I suppose that means I shouldn't've sold my Girdle of Might, thinking that it was less valuable than the Girdle of Avoidance (my Dex at the time was 10 without it)?

 

Sorry to be such a tough questioner. I'm giving you all a run for your experience, here.

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Most skills do not max out. Skills that add to some kind of attack (Spellcraft, Magery, Strength, etc.) never max out. However, they DO get diminishing returns. When you have 5 Spellcraft, adding a 6th point increases your damage noticeably. When you have 25, adding a 26th point increases it by only a small fraction of the damage you're already doing.

Quick Action does not max out, not below 20 anyway, but it was also totally nerfed compared to past games. A Quick Action score of 10 gets only about a 25%-30% double strike rate, and beyond 10 it improves very slowly.

 

The walkthrough, while accurate about most details of the game, makes a lot of dubious statements about ability scores and character mechanics that have no grounding in reality. That 8 Dexterity comment is one of them. On lower difficulty levels a high Dex can help you dodge lots of attacks, and on higher difficulty levels investing anything at all in Dex is a waste.

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Quote:
Originally written by Clavicle:
Anyhow... I think I remember another beta tester on this board (or was it Matt Pasek's walkthrough?) suggesting that spell level training is less significant than spellcraft, magery or Mage/Priest casting skill... are you sure they're all exactly equal?
They're equal for any given spell, but buying a spell level only helps with one spell, while buying a point of Spellcraft helps with every spell. That makes Magery and Spellcraft about twenty times more useful than spell levels, and that is why it's a waste of money to buy more than one level of any spell, at least until you're sure you've bought all the training and items you'll ever want to buy.

The only two skills that I know max out are Parry and Riposte. Parry maxes out at 50% (17 points) for melee attacks (I imagine it maxes out at 50% for missile attacks too, but 25 points of Parry is going overboard). Riposte maxes out at the same amount, but it's hard to get that many points of Riposte in normal gameplay.
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Hey Thuryl, I've been wondering for a while how the math works on Riposte activation, as I've never bothered with it. Suppose you have 17 Parry and 17 Riposte. Does Riposte activate 50% of the time that Parry activates, for an effective rate of 25% Parry, 25% Parry + Riposte, 50% get hit? Or is it a separate roll?

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Quote:
Originally written by Disappearer:
Hey Thuryl, I've been wondering for a while how the math works on Riposte activation, as I've never bothered with it. Suppose you have 17 Parry and 17 Riposte. Does Riposte activate 50% of the time that Parry activates, for an effective rate of 25% Parry, 25% Parry + Riposte, 50% get hit? Or is it a separate roll?
If it works the same way as it did in Geneforge (which I think it does), the Riposte check comes first, then the Parry check. So if you maxed out both of them, you'd have a 50% chance to riposte, a 25% chance to parry and a 25% chance to get hit.

It's not such a bad idea to build melee characters in A5 entirely around going for Riposte, since all the prereqs are useful skills in their own right even if you don't ever get to Riposte itself. Parry+Riposte doesn't quite make you the untouchable wall of iron that Parry alone did in A4, though, especially since quite a few monsters do non-physical damage in melee.

A4 was too damn easy in general, though.
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Hmm...

 

While waiting for your reply I did some minor tests, which gave pretty inconclusive results. (Incidentally, you need 26 Riposte to get a 50% displayed rate as Riposte, unlike Parry, is on the G1 point schedule.)

 

Each test had 20 hits that weren't dodged.

 

Test 1: 17 Parry (50%), 0 Riposte

10 hits

10 parries

0 ripostes

 

Test 2: 17 Parry (50%), 26 Riposte (50%)

4 hits

7 parries

9 ripostes

 

Test 3: 8 Parry (24%), 26 Riposte (50%)

11 hits

3 parries

6 ripostes

 

It seems somewhat unlikely that Riposte is just checked first; in that case, a 50% Riposte rate would have produced just 15/40 ripostes in the last two tests. Similarly, if Parry is checked first, why are its numbers so well-behaved without Riposte present, but consistently a bit low (7/20 and for 50% and 3/20 for 25%) when Riposte is used?

 

My best guess is that there is one roll to block made using, say, the Parry % plus half the Riposte %. If successful, a simple proportional roll is made to choose between parry and riposte; if both are at 50%, it's a 50/50, if Parry is twice riposte, it's a 2/1.

 

This sounds weird, but it does fit the data. If anyone has anecdotal data that gives a different picture, feel free to throw it in.

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Quote:
Originally written by Disappearer:
It seems somewhat unlikely that Riposte is just checked first; in that case, a 50% Riposte rate would have produced just 15/40 ripostes in the last two tests. Similarly, if Parry is checked first, why are its numbers so well-behaved without Riposte present, but consistently a bit low (7/20 and for 50% and 3/20 for 25%) when Riposte is used?
According to this binomial probability calculator , the p-value of your result assuming a straight probability of 0.5 for ripostes (and using a two-tailed test) is 0.15. Without more tests, we don't have enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis.
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