Shapers keeping secrets

[Nioca]

I said they were cruel, not stupid. The only real reason they want you back is because you're powerful, and could help them futher their cause.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Crafterlord: It could never be democratic, it would have to be a system based on power. Democratic leaders are weak, and a republic would never be able to get anything done, whereas someone who got their position through feats of strength would be, needless to say, stronger, also more efficient He could still be overthrown by someone stronger still or a even group of people, so it is democratic in some sense, only you vote with your power, which is appropriate to the world of geneforge.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:

The only real reason they want you back is because you're powerful, and could help them futher their cause.

That sounds reasonable, but you said they were unreasonable. My point is that the drakon geneforges didn't seem to make the drakons that used them crazy. This opens up the possibility of a human geneforge that doesn't make you crazy.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
My point is that the drakon geneforges didn't seem to make the drakons that used them crazy. This opens up the possibility of a human geneforge that doesn't make you crazy.

There's something you're forgetting. Drayks, and by extension Drakons, are some of the most strong-minded creations out there. In fact, they are probably more stable mentally than humans. Therefore, it could just be a strong will that keeps them in the relative realm of sanity.

Besides, the geneforge for Drakons is massively different from the human geneforge. For example, the geneforge in GF1 did not have body parts floating in it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

You would think that a strong will would make one even more crazy. I do not think the drakons are smarter than humans, if anything, they are more unpredictable. However, you were right when you said their geneforges were different from the original one. As I said earlier in this threat, I believe the original geneforge was incomplete, whereas the drakons actually finished theirs. I long to see a completed human geneforge... and to use it.

[Retlaw May]

I can just imagine the human body parts floating around in that pool...

Maybe the human Geneforge is like the Holy Grail, it should only be used by the pure (such as Galahad).

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You would think that a strong will would make one even more crazy.

How did you come to that conclusion? A strong will generally means that they can resist such effects.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Rrrg. If you try to make this argument spiritual I'm going to end up offending someone. I'll just pretend you didn't say that.

 

Yes, human body parts floating around in the geneforge. We would need pieces of all the best specimens the word has to offer! Some parts of Danette, a little bit of Lord Rahul, maybe some Barzahl (not his brain though), in fact, the entire Shaper Council would do. Hmm, whose brains would we use? That is the most important part, as using the proper brain would probably be the key to not going insane. Hmm...

 

Edit: Nioca: Drakon have a strong will only in that they can resist the control of others. The player's encounters with drakons, however, show that drakons can rarely control themselves. Imagine this inability to control themselves magnified by the geneforge, and yet this failed to happen in Geneforge 2 and 3.

[Nioca]

I thought it was their inability to control each other.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

It matters not. In the Taker endings for Geneforge 2 and 3, many drakons use the geneforges, and they proceed to act with surprising unity and efficiently to battle the shapers. If what everyone in this thread is saying would happen happened, then they would not be able to control themselves, they would fight among themselves, and they would turn their own civilization to ruin, which they did not. They did something right with their geneforge that Danette did wrong with hers.

[Nioca]

I was also talking about humans when I said that. Drakons are, quite literally, a different species.

[Crafterlord]

Actually, when I said that "democratic", I meant a group that would divide the choices among ALL of the members, or some specifically chosen ones.

 

This actually works. I live in a place where that works.

 

But with this kind of powers, it would depend on humans. The group wouldn't take those who cannot be trusted to not cheat.

 

Of course, there are always those who can fool even the most intelligent mind.

 

Reason why I used word "democratic" was because I didn't know any better word for this.

 

Strong will... you make the same mistake as those who say we really can make IQ tests that tell us how intelligent we are. Human brains are little more complex that just saying "pure will". The word shouldn't be even used, it leaves too much in dark.

 

And if you say not, very well. Explain me what "strong will" means. So that it takes in account those comments back there.

 

(sorry for the way I wrote in this one)

[Emperor Tullegolar]

When I talk about "will" I mean as it appears in the games. We say drakons are strong willed because they can resist the control of a shaper. I also believe they are strong willed because of their general attitudes in the game. Whenever you meet a solitary drakon, it either tries to kill you outright or it tries to establish some sort of dominance over your character. As for the drakon leaders, they are strong willed in that they are Takers. They have enough strength and courage to go up against the Shaper Council. Those are my justifications for the "strong will" of drakons, my entire point being that even with the general hostility that this “will” tends to create, they seemed saner after using the geneforge, as opposed to the opposite which happened in Geneforge 1 with humans.

 

As for democracy: if the people are allowed to make decisions, there is always the highly likley chance they will make the wrong ones. If the strongest rule, the government will be more efficient and progressive.

[Micawber]

The trouble with the Tullegolite philosophy is that it recognises no criteria for fitness for power other than the ability to obtain it. Your strong ruler could very well be a lunatic. This is a particular problem with hereditary rulers who may be kept in power by the strong loyalty of their followers.

 

Quite simply, there is no infallible way to identify who is best suited to exercise absolute power. It's much better to share out power equally which limits the damage that can be done by any one individual.

[Nioca]

Actually, now that I think about it... It wasn't that they seemed saner, it was almost as if they had lost their personalities. Which could be very dangerous. Of course, I may be way off the mark here.

 

No matter what kind of government you try to set up, it will always have it's shortcomings. Tullegolar pointed out the problem with a democracy. The problem with absolute rule is if the leader is corrupt or insane, evrything starts falling apart. With a republic, while everything will start out fine, some of people with power will invariably become corrupt. These numbers will grow, untill eventually the whole system is corrupt.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

There is always the chance that a leader will be a complete lunatic. This is why Tullegolite philosophy supports violent overthrowing of the government. If a lunatic does take power, it is the duty of each and every citizen to make sure that he is taken out of commission as soon as possible. Besides, I feel it is unlikely that a lunatic would ever take power under my philosophy because to become leader, one would have great difficulty taking over the world all by himself, he would need many strong supporters. Yes, he would need to be not only strong himself, but a genius that is able to garner support as well.

 

Democracies do limit the damage done by each individual, but they also limit the progress and allow for incompetence. Governments need strong leaders. Imagine you are on a ship in the middle of a storm. What do you do? Who do you go to? Do you vote on what to do? Do you elect someone to tell you what to do? No, you go right to the captain, a man who has his position because he is the best.

 

Someone said something about hereditary rulers, Tullegolite philosophy does not believe in hereditary rulers. I never understood why that concept was so popular throughout human history. It allows for greater incompetence than even democracy.

[Retlaw May]

It is kind of funny when you talk of captains because usually (at least until the 20th century) captains of national vessels were usually only there because of connections and in pirate vessels they were voted in by the whole crew, and only had power in the heat of battle.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
There is always the chance that a leader will be a complete lunatic. This is why Tullegolite philosophy supports violent overthrowing of the government. If a lunatic does take power, it is the duty of each and every citizen to make sure that he is taken out of commission as soon as possible.

Yes, but then there would be absolute chaos as almost everyone scrambles for that position. Everything would break down into anarchy. The new leader would have quite a task on his or her hands, trying to restore order. That's if some rebel group doesn't decide to use the situation to their advantage and make some sort of power play.

EDIT: You haven't lived untill you hit the 'code' button instead of the 'quote' button.

[Dikiyoba]

I see a world ruled according to Emperor Tullegolar going through a few years of rebellion as people fight for control, then a few decades of peace once a strong leader takes charge, then another rebellion once the leader becomes too weak, and so on. Those years of rebellion would bring about great advancements in knowledge (at least the sort of knowledge that leads towards more power and control and "perfection") as everyone experiments in hopes of gaining an advantage while serviles and other creations would gain some independence and thought because no one has the effort to spare to keep them weak and under control. The periods of peace would bring serviles and other creations back into complete subservience and inferiority since there would be enough people to watch over them again, but the gain of knowledge would slow down as the leader tightens control so no one becomes more powerful than him/her.

 

It's an interesting thought, but not one I'd want to create or live in.

 

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

EDIT: You haven't lived untill you hit the 'code' button instead of the 'quote' button.

But Dikiyoba did die a little from trying to read the last few posts while it was still up.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Retlaw: I meant my example to be little more abstract than you took it for. I see you took it literally but did you at least understand the point I was trying to get across?

 

Quote:

Originally written by Luo Guanzhong:

The Empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been.

Nioca+Dikiyoba: You'd probably expect a quote like that to be written by me. It was actually written by a famous Chinese historian on the history of China, one of the most powerful nations in both ancient and modern history. China, while they were by no means Tullegolites, went through long periods of Empire, and whenever a particular dynasty grew weak, rebellion would ensue, and the Emperor would be replaced. This ensured that China stayed strong. Destructive, you say? I think a little rebellion every now and then is healthy for any nation. Not to mention inevitable. So why not promote it? If the government is worthy, it should not matter either way.

 

Edit: Serviles. While I hate to admit it, it is not unreasonable to think that serviles would indeed prove a valuable resource during the periods of war. After a long enough time, centuries at least, the lines between humans and serviles may even become blurred, as both races would bleed on the field of battle. I would not try to enslave a serviles that saved my life in the middle of a skirmish. Then again, serviles are weak, and perhaps they would not be so useful in war after all. I will have to see how well they prove themselves in Geneforge 4 before I can say for sure.

[Crafterlord]

Ugh. War isn't answer for who should be leader.

 

The two ways together are the way: vote a leader who is the king, but who isn't all-powerful. There is a 200-man senate who votes for that leader's ideas: if about 140-170 vote against the decision of that leader, that decision is cancelled.

 

The senate is chosen by voting.

 

This system stops the leader from doing whatever he/she wants.

 

Every four years a vote is arranged: should we take another leader?

 

Tullegolar? I take this is a better solution. IF you don't want to kill people just for fun.

[Nioca]

Except that there's the possibility that some sort of uprising in the senate could interrupt the flow of things. You would have a breakdown in the government.

 

EDIT: And that's if the people don't start throwing their loyalties to the senate instead of the emperor/king/ruler. That would be a real problem.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Another problem with democracies is that they tend to lead to party politics. This tends to result in the senate or whatever being split right down the middle, hampering the decision making process. Also, if you are going to vote for leaders, this requires either a very small or a very educated population. Since we are talking about the world of Geneforge, these people are neither small in number nor well educated. They would not know who to vote for, and there would be either total chaos or inept leaders elected.

 

War, on the other hand, leads to heroes. Heroes tend to garner the love of the people and they tend to be good leaders. War brings out the best in people, and thus it is an excellent way to find leaders. It wouldn’t be killing people for fun, it would be killing people for progress and prosperity.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
War brings out the best in people

No, tragedy brings out the best in people. War brings out the worst.

Quote:

and thus it is an excellent way to find leaders. It wouldn’t be killing people for fun, it would be killing people for progress and prosperity.

The problem with this theory is that people need a villan to fight. This leads to genocide. Hitler is a prime example of this.

Also, you're betting a lot on the possibility that this will bring forward a leader. While good in theory, what if no one steps up?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Hitler picked on the weak. Tullegotlites pick on the strong. There would be little to gain from attacking the weak, in fact, it would be best to have them on your side, as it would make world domination that much easier. The villains would simply be the strongest in society, and the hero would be the villain that wins in the end.

 

If no winner/leader arises, then everyone is simply doing a pathetic job of fighting, and they must continue until such as time as one does.

[Nioca]

Except that he/she would be overthrown soon after he/she took power, because, as you elequently put it, he/she is merely the villain that won in the end.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

If no winner/leader arises, then everyone is simply doing a pathetic job of fighting, and they must continue until such as time as one does.

My point is, what if a hero doesn't show up? What if they just fight themselves to extinction?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I don't think the ruler would be overthrown so soon, because he would have access to the geneforge itself. Mmm, the fruits of victory.

 

If the human race actually somehow managed to war itself into extinction rather than eventually unite under a single rule, then those idiots deserve extinction.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I don't think the ruler would be overthrown so soon, because he would have access to the geneforge itself. Mmm, the fruits of victory.

If an apprentice shaper can beat Trajkov into a pulp with his bare hands, AFTER Trajkov uses the geneforge, then by your form of government, geneforge or not, rulers would be overthrown at a rather rapid rate. You said yourself:

Quote:

Also written by Emperor Tullegolar:
It has been proven that these powers do not make one invincible, so I suspect a crappy ruler would be overthrown if necessary.

Also, the previous ruler might have, in case he or she was killed, ordered someone to destroy the geneforge. If this was carried out, the new ruler would be even more vulnerable than the old.

That said, I think we've almost fought each other to a stalemate.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I said a crappy ruler that used the geneforge would be overthrown, a good rule would not only be ore difficult to defeat, but if he is really good, there will be few who wish to challenge his rulership. When you character uses the geneforge, he is almost invincible, a much more worthy ruler than Trajkov. Also, destroying the geneforge would be going against Tullegolite philosophy. If there was no geneforge to be the ultimate goal, there would be little motivation to become supreme ruler, and the wars would eventually trickle to a halt, unless a new one was built.

 

That said, you can not declare the argument over until you have explained to me how you think things should be run. That way, I can point out how my way is so much better.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:
I said a crappy ruler that used the geneforge would be overthrown, a good rule would not only be ore difficult to defeat, but if he is really good, there will be few who wish to challenge his rulership.

Yes, but there are always those few malcontents that will plot against you. And heaven help you if one of those groups contains a shaper apprentice whose training was tragically interrupted.

On a serious note, it can be quite suprising how much damage a 'non-threat' can actually do. It's not the ones with power that you need to worry about, it's the ones without it. If three geneforge games haven't proven this, I don't know what will.

Quote:

When you character uses the geneforge, he is almost invincible, a much more worthy ruler than Trajkov.

Apparently you didn't try to leave Sucia Island, or go to the ancient shaper graveyard, the name of which still eludes me.

Quote:

Also, destroying the geneforge would be going against Tullegolite philosophy.

Except that humans, when desperate, will do almost anything, no matter who they were to begin with. This holds true for almost any animal on this earth.

Quote:

If there was no geneforge to be the ultimate goal, there would be little motivation to become supreme ruler, and the wars would eventually trickle to a halt, unless a new one was built.

In other words, your whole system of government would break down. Eventually someone would build a new geneforge and retake position as supreme ruler, but how much is lost in the mean time? I'm not just talking about lives here, either. Your whole civilization would regress.

Quote:

That said, you can not declare the argument over until you have explained to me how you think things should be run. That way, I can point out how my way is so much better.

I said that we've almost fought each other to a stalemate. By no means did I declare this argument over.

My form of government would probably somewhat resemble a republic. However, it would have three leading rulers, similar to the shaper council, with equal power. In order to pass any sort of bill or order, it has to be at least a two-to-one vote between the leaders. This helps prevent a corrupt leader from taking too much control. You would also have the congress, senate, and so forth. However, the main difference is that leaders, senators, governors, and so forth would have far shorter terms. the presidents wouldn't have 4 years. they would have nine months. Mind you, they can run for re-election a few times, and senators and congress would have even shorter cycles. This limits the amount of damage any politician could do. Lobbying would be a federal offense. If a person, to put it bluntly, attempts to bribe a politician, he or she would face massive fines ($1,000,000, to give you an idea.) and 20 years imprisonment. If the politician accepted, he or she would face the same fine, and would lose the government position, even if he or she is a president.

Oh, and don't give me the progress speech. One thing you're forgetting, as you push for progress, is what are the costs? By costs, I mean natural resources, energy, etc. Having a geneforge that can transform someone into a demigod is nice, but if the amount of resources needed to support it exceed the amount you can get, all it'll be useful for is a swimming pool. Therefore, you would waste a massive amount of resources that could have gone to making your people happy and healthy.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

However, the main difference is that leaders, senators, governors, and so forth would have far shorter terms. the presidents wouldn't have 4 years. they would have nine months. Mind you, they can run for re-election a few times, and senators and congress would have even shorter cycles.

Eww... constant campaigning. That seems like it would hurt the effectiveness of the government in getting things done.

 

Quote:

This limits the amount of damage any politician could do.

It also limits the good things any one politician could do.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Eww... constant campaigning. That seems like it would hurt the effectiveness of the government in getting things done.

A little, but that's a small price to pay for stability in the government. Besides, there would be less campaigning because of the short span of power.

Quote:

It also limits the good things any one politician could do.

True. However, it's much easier to break a good political and economic enviroment down then it is to build it up from scratch because the idiot(s) that preceded you destroyed it. Therefore it's more beneficial to limit the potential damage than increase the potential good.

[Goldengirl]

Emperor Tullegolar,

In response to your challenge, I submit this form of government. At the top is a king, who shares equal power with the president and prime minister. The king is born into power, and will be king until his eldest son has reached eighteen. The president is voted in by the people of each province. The prime minister is voted in by the house of representatives. Below these three leaders is the house of representatives, which is has one representative for each major business, branch of the military, and province. Next to this is the supreme court, which is completly identical to the US supreme court.

-Goldenking

[Nioca]

That sounds like it might work. Of course, it could also lead to a lot of fighting between the three leaders.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Nioca: Yes, my system of government is based on the geneforge, without it, it would fall. I'll admit that. If I wanted to argue about governments suited to a world without the geneforge, I would be posting in the general forum.

 

Your Government: With terms as short as you are suggesting, how is anyone supposed to get any ruling experience? Dikiyoba is right about the constant campaigning, but even worse is the fact that the entire bureaucracy would have to be replaced each time someone new is elected. It would be total chaos, and completely inept people would constantly be gaining positions of power. In my system, a ruler can rule as long as he does a good job. When he stops doing a good job, rather than elect someone new, he is killed off and replaced by someone that is guaranteed to be stronger and better.

 

As for resources, what makes you think that keeping an operational geneforge takes so much energy? In Geneforge 3, it existed on an island devoid of resources and with but a few serviles to maintain it. Not sure where you are going with that point.

 

Emperorking: 1. Why would the king ever try to have a child if he needs to worry about being replaced when he reaches 18? 2. Who chooses the representatives? 3. And finally, by being the same as the U.S. Supreme Court, do you mean have virtually no power at all?

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Emperorking: 1. Why would the king ever try to have a child if he needs to worry about being replaced when he reaches 18? 2. Who chooses the representatives? 3. And finally, by being the same as the U.S. Supreme Court, do you mean have virtually no power at all?

1:Okay, how about until the son is 18, the king is 50, or the king is dead? 2: The people who it concerns. 3: I was being lazy there, dispense justice, make laws, hold power over the police.

[Retlaw May]

ET you talk as if a mighty ruler is a good ruler, that is often quite false, and even if he is both mighty and good, he will still be overthrown by other power hungry people. I don't think that you really can argue that good rulers wouldn't be constantly killed.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Emperorking: 1. It would have to be until the king is dead, otherwise there will be succession problems. 2. A senate where the military and corporations get as many votes as the public? That sounds like the Estates General in France right before the revolution, a recipe for disaster. 3. Supreme Court dispensing justice? Isn't that the king's job? What is the point of the king at all in your government? It is all very confusing.

 

Retlaw: The only way someone would be able to overthrow a geneforge imbued leader would be if that person has overwhelming support. Lunatics rarely get such support, great leaders get this support.

[Crafterlord]

But you only need small, fast group and surpise attack...

 

Also, Nioca, your goverment would need constant voting... and you just said my voting system would be ruined without education. Ahem, your system is the same.

 

But, my system has certain groups. There are democratics group, communists group, and so on. Each group gives some persons to vote to senate.

 

My point is, I think giving too much power to ONE or even to too small group is not wise... for if those three make a pact to not vote against each others decisions (which is un-probable but it could happen).

 

Well, the 200-man senate would be too big, but what about... 20-man senate, where one of them is the president?

 

After senate is voted, it votes for president. Every member of senate has one vote, but president has three or four votes. THIS is what I meant.

 

But one senate can't do it ALL. So, should we have one senate for every certain area? And one senate with judging over them all? The big senate would decide on most important matters, like "Shall we build <important building> to that place?

 

Of course, it would require someone to teach people, but humans were once animals who didn't know how to talk. And now I see this kind of discussion. If you talk about progress, it's not only about science... schools are included, like about every other thing that helps us.

 

ET... your philosophy has good points and bad points. Thought if there wasn't one leader who would win that war fast, the was could last very long without geneforge. If geneforge was used only AFTER war, it would be baad.

 

But somebody would steal some, I guess?

 

But, even if you have great support, you ARE mortal. So, geneforge somehow makes people more resistant to swords and arrows? Leaders have been assasinated before.

 

But, let's say some disaster would happen, where the whole nation would be broken apart and nobody knew what to do. Then one person comes and unites and everything is again good. It is this time when kings shine.

 

EDIT: Oh-oh. I just remembered, but kings in feudal age didn't decide EVERYTHING by themselves. They couldn't be bothered with things "to which one does this cow belong?"-things. Might not have anything to do with topic, but it reminds us of something. Humans are not gods.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Emperorking: 1. It would have to be until the king is dead, otherwise there will be succession problems. 2. A senate where the military and corporations get as many votes as the public? That sounds like the Estates General in France right before the revolution, a recipe for disaster. 3. Supreme Court dispensing justice? Isn't that the king's job? What is the point of the king at all in your government? It is all very confusing.

Emperor Tullegolar,
1. Very well, until the king is dead. 2. You have a problem with prerevolutionary France? 3. The king, as well as the prime minister and president, would declare war, control the budget, stamp out rebellion, defend the nation, tell people what they are to be teaching in the schools, etc.
-Goldenking

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
With terms as short as you are suggesting, how is anyone supposed to get any ruling experience?

I said they could run multiple times. If a ruler is good, he stays. Simple as that.

Quote:

In my system, a ruler can rule as long as he does a good job. When he stops doing a good job, rather than elect someone new, he is killed off and replaced by someone that is guaranteed to be stronger and better.

The problem with this theory is that the next ruler could merely be a political figurehead. To clairify, here is an example:

Let's say that Tullegolarland is currently ruled over by someone named Owen. He's a benevolent ruler and an excellent warrior. Now, someone else is eyeing the throne, let's name her Carol. She is a terrible warrior and is very selfish. She also is extremely rich and has a massive influence over politics.

Now, by your theory, there is no way Carol could become ruler, right? WRONG! She could get power by hiring some sort of assassin team, kill Owen, and claim that she killed him. This would make Carol the ruler, and thus would grant her access to the geneforge. Now, two things could result from this:
(A) Carol takes the throne for herself, and rules until she's overthrown by someone else.
( Carol takes the throne, BUT winds up being a puppet for someone else.

Either way, you have a whole new set of problems to deal with.

Quote:

As for resources, what makes you think that keeping an operational geneforge takes so much energy? In Geneforge 3, it existed on an island devoid of resources and with but a few serviles to maintain it. Not sure where you are going with that point.

Oops. This one's my fault. I meant to say that if some sort of new superforge was developed, it would probably require a lot of resources to maintain. If you didn't have the ability to maintain it, you basically wasted a bunch of resources that would have been better spent elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally written by Crafterlord:
Also, Nioca, your goverment would need constant voting... and you just said my voting system would be ruined without education.

Ummm... I actually think that Tullegolar said that.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Goldenking: It seems the executive branch in your government does just about everything. What is the Senate responsible for?

 

Nioca: This Owen sounds like an idiot. He was killed by a bunch of hired assassins? Pathetic, he deserved death. I like this Carol, she has ambition, which is important. It is very unlikely that someone with enough ambition to kill the ruler would become a puppet. Even if she was a puppet, that's fine too. After all, if the person pulling the strings doesn't want to be in the spotlight, that sounds like a brilliant move, not one made by an incompetent.

 

Rulers: I suppose I always assumed this was implied, but maybe I should clarify a little on this point. Physical strength would not be the sole determining factor in a new ruler rising to power under the Tullegolite philosophy. Obviously, any army can defeat one man, even a man blessed by the geneforge. A ruler would have to have support of the people, and support of his own army. This is where the good leadership skills come in, this is why my rulers would never be incompetent. This is also why they would not constantly be assassinated. They would have guards, you know. It is at the point where they are such bad rulers that they can not even control their own army that they would actually be overthrown.

 

Resources: What could be a better investment of money than a superforge?

 

Voting: It matters not, all your voting systems would be ruined due to lack of education. The world of geneforge is simply not ready for democracy.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Goldenking: It seems the executive branch in your government does just about everything. What is the Senate responsible for?

Emperor Tullegolar,
The Senate is responsible for the same things. With majority of 55% percent they can overrule two of the higher leaders. With 75% majority they can overrule all three.
-Goldenking

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Tell me more about the Representatives. Would there be an even number of citizen, corporation, and military ones? This would be terrible. If the military and corporation could outvote the population, they would constantly by screwing them over. This is exactly what happened in the Estates General, where the nobility and clergy representatives always outvoted the population ones and screw them over... in France.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
[QB]Tell me more about the Representatives. Would there be an even number of citizen, corporation, and military ones? This would be terrible. If the military and corporation could outvote the population, they would constantly by screwing them over. This is exactly what happened in the Estates General, where the nobility and clergy representatives always outvoted the population ones and screw them over... in France.

Emperor Tullegolar,
By no means would the corporate or military outweigh the civilians. There would be the representative for the mages, the representative for the navy, and the representative for the army, that would be all the army got. The corporations would get a representative for the three largest businesses. Now considering how large the Shaper Empire is, the civilians would outweigh the military and corporations by quite a bit.
-Goldenking

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Legislative: There is no form of mass communication in geneforge. Democracy only work with mass communication or a very small population. How will the people know who they are voting for? How will they know the issues? Most people will be voting out of ignorance, it seems. Really, despotism is the only way to go here.

 

Executive: I assume the Prime Minister fills the role of Head of Government. Who is the Head of State, the King or the President? Most governments in the world today have two chief executives, some have one that fills both roles, but three is simply unheard of. It seems excessive to me. One is all I ever needed.

[Micawber]

In many governments the position of 'head of government' is shared somehow. For instance the French PM is a chief executive role but also the French president has some executive powers. Conceivably one could restore the French monarchy for purely ceremonial functions as 'head of state', (admittedly an unlikely example). Similarly, one can envisage a corporation with three heads, i.e. CEO, non-exec chairman and majority-shareholder. I can't think of any particular where this really happens in the world today, however.

 

For a historical example of sharing power three ways: Caesar-Crassus-Pompey. Crassus provided the money, Caesar led the foreign campaigns and Pompey ruled the city. It didn't end well, though...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The President of France is the Head of State, the Prime Minister is the Head of Government. There would simply be no place for a King if they wanted to bring it back. Your corporation model is unlikely, though interesting. And as for the Triumvirates of Rome, those both ended in disaster. People don't like to share power. It is also inefficient. A single ruler is the way to go.

 

Word of the Day: Envisage.

[Khoth]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
There is no form of mass communication in geneforge.

There obviously is. How do you think everyone instantly knows what you said to a servile in a cave three islands away?

[Micawber]

The French President has more than a ceremonial role. The King could take over the receiving ambassadors side of things, while the President carries on making appointments, signing laws and so on. Of course I accept that this is fantasy as a specific example, but the principle of a three way split -- exec, non-exec and stakeholder -- has some merit.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
This Owen sounds like an idiot. He was killed by a bunch of hired assassins? Pathetic, he deserved death.

You're forgetting that there are more ways to kill than just fighting with swords or batons. It would be easy to slip him some sort of poison without his knowledge.

Quote:

This is also why they would not constantly be assassinated. They would have guards, you know.

But guards aren't around 24/7, nor are they omniscient.

Quote:

Resources: What could be a better investment of money than a superforge?

You're missing the point. I specifically refrained from saying money. I meant resources such as crystals, essence, manpower/servilepower, etc. If you don't have enough resources to maintain a superforge, then the effort and resources already put into it were wasted.