Shapers keeping secrets

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Student of Trinity: Very funny. Please tell me then: who funds your research? Since you are blurring the lines between two distinct worlds again, I'll be more specific to the modern era this time, just for you.

 

I'll bet your research is funded by a multinational corporation. Who owns those? The aristocracy of the modern era, of course. I will admit, they are not only funding scientists because they can, but also because they think they can make even more money from it, but it matters not. Either way, a large amount of investment capital is required, and the best way to get that capital is from people who have a lot of extra money to throw around. In medieval times, this was the Count of Montecristo, today, it's your multinational corporations.

 

Crafterlord: I believe that technology and new inventions tend to trickle down, no matter what the leader wants. A hundred years ago, the average person having a car was out of the question. However, because the rich were motivated to benefit themselves by making cars cheaper and easier to obtain, it directly benefited the common people as well. Thus, if a leader takes on a policy of rapid progress, it can only benefit everyone, no matter what their standing in the social pyramid may be.

[*i]

Quote:

I don't think the US does a particularly large share of addressing humanitarian crises, though I could be wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure the US Navy is a little overpowered for the job of keeping down piracy.

The US does a lot more than some are led to believe and a lot less in some cases. Historically, the US has taken a decent share of the role. It could, and perhaps should, do more.

Actually look at the piracy statistics. After the Cold War, the Soviet Union and the US cut their navies substantially such that piracy is now a serious concern. It was not this way 20 years ago. Strong navies are vital to keeping pirates at bay as history shows. Without the US Navy, piracy would be even worse.

Quote:

The United States is a military superpower, but like most nation states it pursues its own interests as perceived by its government of the day. It doesn't tend to spend its taxpayers' billions or its servicemen's lives on causes that do not serve its interests, however noble they might be. People often point this out as though it were damning, but I don't see too many other countries lining up to die for noble causes either.

That is true, but keep in mind global security is a US interest so it tends to get involved in a lot of things for this reason. Again, the US should probably do more.

Quote:

I think that eventually humanity will get a global police force, but the United States' military is not it. In my opinion it should neither be praised for being what it isn't, nor blamed for not being so.

That's why I put quotes around it such that it shouldn't be taken literally. It's not a police force or military force globally in the traditional sense. To be fair, the US does tend historically to make up much of UN and NATO forces.

[Student of Trinity]

I'm funded from taxes levied by a liberal democracy, mostly on its broad middle class. So is most science, except for pharmaceuticals; and so it has been for a couple of centuries or so.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I'm funded from taxes levied by a liberal democracy, mostly on its broad middle class. So is most science, except for pharmaceuticals; and so it has been for a couple of centuries or so.

This statement interested me, because I've heard people say this, and I've heard people say the opposite, neither ever providing statistics. This essentially is two statistical statements: first, tax comes mostly from the middle class, and second, most science is funded by the government.

Here's the statistics behind the first one. There's a page on irs.gov that has a whole bunch of tax statistics from as recently as 2003. (Click on the first "All Returns" category to get the file I'm talking about. In the left-most column of the spreadsheet, it gives income ranges, and in the right-most column, it gives total taxation from that range.) Apparently, more than half of all tax in the U.S. (a whopping 62%) comes from people between the income levels of $50,000 and $500,000. Indeed, 46% comes from people between the income levels of $50,000 and $200,000, which is pretty much still in the middle class range. The very rich ($1,000,000 or higher) pay a total of around 18% of all tax.

Thus, it's pretty fair to say that most tax income comes from the middle class (and another good chunk from the lower end of the upper class).

Note here that we're talking about personal income tax alone, not sales tax, business taxes, or anything like that. However, according to this page , the overwhelming share of the tax revenue that the federal government gets comes from individual income tax and only a small chunk from businesses and other things.

Next issue: is science largely funded by the government? According to nsf.gov's page on the subject , industry does the majority (68%) of R&D in the U.S., but universities and colleges did 55% of all basic research in the U.S. (which is probably what we're talking about when we talk about "science"). According to this page , 64% of all university and college funding for R&D comes from the federal government, and presumably that applies as much or more to basic research, too.

In other words, it is also pretty fair to say that most science in the present-day U.S. is funded by the government, which gets most of its taxes from the middle class and the moderately (not extremely) wealthy.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
industry does the majority (68%)... it is also pretty fair to say that most science in the present-day U.S. is funded by the government

Uh, so which is it? Since you seem to be fine with saying both do the majority, it seems I'm going to have to draw my own conclusion. You statistics clearly state that industry does the most R&D and it also puts the most money towards it. Industry wins, I told you. Fat businessmen seeking to benefit themselves equals progress.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Uh, so which is it? Since you seem to be fine with saying both do the majority, it seems I'm going to have to draw my own conclusion. You statistics clearly state that industry does the most R&D and it also puts the most money towards it. Industry wins, I told you.

It would help if you finished reading the sentence, you doofus.

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
industry does the majority (68%) of R&D in the U.S., but universities and colleges did 55% of all basic research in the U.S. (which is probably what we're talking about when we talk about "science").

There is a difference between "R&D" as defined by the NSF and "basic research" as defined by the NSF. Basic research more resembles what one would think of as traditional scientific inquiry.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Irrelevant. Who does the research is not in question here. Your forgot what the topic was after only three posts, a new record. The matter at hand is funding for research, remember? And your statistics say... industry wins. I win. I always win. I am the Emperor.

[*i]

Tullegolar: Your arrogance really annoys us. Cut it out please.

 

As far as who does the most research, it's hard to say because you have to define "research". Most of the engineering and drug development research/design goes on at corporations. Most of the "fundamental science" goes on at universities. Most of the national security stuff goes on at laboratories or contractors.

 

Here's an interesting question. If the government pays a corporation to develop say missile X, is that a government research project or a corporate one?

 

Basically, the question is not as simple as you are acting. Realize that it all depends on the definition which may vary based on the beholder.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
The matter at hand is funding for research, remember?

And government funds the institutions that do most of the research. I'm not sure how I can be more clear than this. Who does the research? Colleges and universities. Where do they get their money? The government. Thus, the government funds the research.

[Crafterlord]

Tullegolar, last time when you were "talking to me", you got the point very well.

 

I'm not annoyed by your arrogance, but some people are. And well, you should take a stance where you want to learn more, not to teach. No offense. And I'm almost sure you will tell me that it's different. That you are not "teaching, but giving us facts", or something similar. Maybe.

 

And to the point: I'm thinking Microsoft.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I am beginning to think that the question we are trying to answer has far to many facets. While on one hand, I think that the fact that 63% of all research being paid for by industry is good enough to conclude that industry pays for most research. On the other hand, you think that the fact that 55% of research done by universities being paid for by the government is reason enough to conclude that government pays for most research. While I think my argument is clearly superior, it is difficult to argue against either.

 

*i: Your whining really annoys me. Cut it out please.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
While on one hand, I think that the fact that 63% of all research being paid for by industry is good enough to conclude that industry pays for most research.

This is not a statistic that I quoted, and you have not mentioned it before. Where does it come from? The same site?

Quote:

*i: Your whining really annoys me. Cut it out please.

He's an admin. You would do well to treat him with some respect.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Kelandon: Yes, it is from the same site. Take note that one percentage is how much research industry does, the other is how much they pay for.

 

By the way, I follow your rules. If I want to be arrogant, that is my business.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Yes, it is from the same site.

I didn't see that statistic. Could you provide a link to the page on which it appears and a description of where on the page to find it?

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
By the way, I follow your rules. If I want to be arrogant, that is my business.

Quote:

Originally written in the CoC:
+ Any communication that is intended to harass, belittle, humiliate, threaten or cause embarrassment to a fellow member.

The traditional interpretation of this rule is that being nasty and unpleasant constitutes an infraction.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
According to nsf.gov's page on the subject

Here is the link... provided by yourself just a few posts ago. Edit: If you have trouble finding it is the second bullet from the top.

If you have further comments on my attitude, please send me a private message. I find it very inappropriate to discuss these things in public.

[Kelandon]

"Industry was also the largest source of R&D funding, paying for 63 percent of all R&D."

Need I remind you that there is a difference between "R&D" and "basic research"? Of course industry does most of the R&D. I said that already. That's not what one would call normal science, though.

 

Look, I do some R&D work myself. I work for a test-prep company, and I take the SAT every time it's offered. Then I send in a report about how well the techniques that we teach worked on the test. In response to my reports, the people who write our materials make slight adjustments in order to match the test better. That's R&D, but it'd be hard to call that "science."

 

EDIT: I guess this discussion is over. I win in the end.

[Nioca]

Wow. Why did he get banned? (I have a pretty good idea, but I just want to confirm.)

 

EDIT: That's what I thought.

 

Hey! I'm a mercenary! Oh... Emperor Tullegolar was a mercenary... This can't be a good sign...

[Micawber]

I think his posts in this thread provide abdundant grounds for a ban.

[Andraste]

Good. He was annoying.

[*i]

All right, I think the discussion on Tullegolar has gone on long enough. Let's get back to the substantial issues of the thread.

[Goldengirl]

Need I remind you, Stareye, that Tullegolar was the one fueling more then half of the debate? I think this thread is through.

 

Nioca, don't worry it's all part of ranking system. The only dangerous titles are Canned and BANNED.

[Student of Trinity]

Does it make sense to call corporations the 'bored fat rich elite' of today? I'd say, hardly. They're often rich, but they are usually owned by some aggregate of mutual funds who are owned collectively by all sorts of nobodies, including me. More importantly, probably, they are mostly only rich by giving the mass of people what they want in the way of products. In this sense they have no power at all: if people all just decide to buy something else, the corporation dies. Which often happens.

[Nioca]

A more pressing concern is the fact that everyone here thinks that all the rich elite are bored and fat. It's possible to have non-bored, skinny elite.

[Randomizer]

Actually these days its more likely to have bored, skinny (anorexic) elite. Think Paris Hilton and the other trust fund idiots.

 

Still ET had trouble between all R&D and basic R&D which is only a part. Since Bell Labs (Lucent soon to be Alcatel) decided to go from basic research to applied research there aren't many places in industry that do research without the emphais on the bottom line. Gone are the days where Xerox's PARC would develope ideas that other companies would use like the graphical interface (Apple), Ethernet connection, etc.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
It's possible to have non-bored, skinny elite.

Only Julius Caesar. All other elite are fat and bored. Don't you read Asterix?

[Crafterlord]

I see the discussion is over. Somehow I have a feeling that Emperor always brought us more problems to think of.

 

I guess he was too arrogant, but *ahem* despite that, he had interesting points.

 

And please get back to that old style of philosophy, politics etc. Even if it is against the idea of game forum, in the end.

 

And, just look at the start of this forum and look what started this war of beliefs

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Don't you read Asterix?

No. I don't know what it is, either.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Now that the discusson is limited to people with a more sane disposition, I refer back to my earlier point: technology and research in and of itself isn't inherently bad, but research based on dubious goals and ambitions will always have negative consequences. The people (in-game) who want to build Geneforges aren't doing it because they want to advance mankind into a new era but for their own selfish ends while those who rather see such research banned and all of its products destroyed understand the motivation is based on greed and lust for power rather than a genuine desire to use shaping to benefit human beings.

 

You can argue about whether Shapers do this only to maintain the status quo that keeps them in power or they do it because they are genuinely motivated to prevent humankind from destroying itself with Shaping technology, but it's inarguable that if they DIDN'T do anything, life could be a lot worse for everybody. Their philosophy and regime is far from perfect, but it's a far better alternative than allowing any megalomaniacal crackpot to form a cult and build a Geneforge to transform themselves into its "god."

[Student of Trinity]

Originally written by J. Robert Oppenheimer:

Quote:

It is a profound and necessary truth, that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them.

[Student of Trinity]

Asterix .

[Nioca]

Ah... Thanks, but I'll pass...

[Randomizer]

The idea behind cannisters and the geneforge was to be able to systematically improve life instead of the hit and usually miss method in use. This would prevent the disaster that destroyed the original inhabitants of Sucia Island. The problem was that the rebels are indiscriminately passing out improvements without any control on who gets them. In stable trained hands it wouldn't be too bad, but most of the recipients are disasters that now have the power to destroy more than themselves.

 

ET before he was banned assumed that might would be a good enough method of determining who should get increased power without worrying about the mental instabilities that would occur. While more research is necessary, it must be restricted until a reliable method exists to prevent madness.

[Nioca]

Another way to decide might be to have canisters open to everyone. However, before they can use a canister, they have to pass some sort of sanity test. If they are determined to be mentally unstable, they can't use one.

 

Now, if that same person comes back for another canister, they have to take the sanity test again. This keeps people from becoming genocidal monsters by cutting them off before they reach the point of mental instability.

 

This enforces Emperor Tullegolar's point of view without endangering normal people.

[Crafterlord]

Congratulations Nioca.

 

Thought enruling this could have it's own problems, naturally. There are people who at first don't seem mad, but are mad.

 

Then would be those who would steal it or a new cult, where one person is chosen as "god", with his "followers" taking care of people who would be in the way of taking the canister.

 

(Yes, the cultist thing is... something that wouldn't probably happen.)

 

The Shapers probably have different purposes. The common idea (in my opinion) is that they want to keep the power for themselves. For some reason, humans like power.

 

Well, power itself is only a way. Purpose is what makes us want power. If somebody wants to tell me that some want power for no purpose, please give me example.

 

And, (sorry for this off-topic) I never would have thought when I first looked at these forums that they talk philosophy and such here... whee

[Nioca]

I spent two years watching these forums before I finally decided to join, so I had a little time to prepare myself.

Quote:

Originally written by Crafterlord:

I see the discussion is over.

Then what do you call the 19 posts after Tullegolar's banning?

 

EDIT: Typo.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

Then what do you call the 19[th] post after Tullegolar's banning?

A new discussion, obviously.

 

Originally by Crafterlord:

 

Quote:

Thought enruling this could have it's own problems, naturally. There are people who at first don't seem mad, but are mad.

Especially since the effects of the canisters often take some time to develop, and no one knows which canister will finally drive them to madness. People occasionally post to ask how many canisters they can take before it affects their ending. In real life, you can't get that sort of guarantee.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

True, but they wouldn't be using canisters one after another. Also, the chances of a civilian using more than one or two canisters is remote, at best.

[Randomizer]

Considering how quickly the Sholai became addicted to cannisters it might take only a few before desire for more becomes important. Even trained shapers became addicted and felt just one more will have a calming effect (GF1 - Sealed Lab).

 

There will always be someone who finds a way to circumvent the rules. Either by finding a way to fake sanity or to get cannisters illegally from the weakest link in the distribution chain.

[Crafterlord]

To Nioca: what I ment back there by saying "discussion over", I meant that the philosophy etc. was over. Thought I see they either started new discussion/they are continuing the old.

 

The Point of this post: Hmmhmm. Maybe if the users of canisters were watched over by authority, like nation?

 

Thought this wouldn't help for those who take them in secret/steal them...

 

But, in that case, I would (yes, I use my own opinion here, but there are more of opinions... and I'm saying that all the time...) make a law that punishes those who steal canisters without the sanity test. I see killing would be the best way, so they surely wouldn't use those powers.

 

And to research the way to not lose sanity when you use canister... hmmhmm. Good point.

 

Though didn't somebody at some point say you could not get mad if you just tried not to very hardly? Maybe only those should be allowed in that case, those of strong willpower.

[Nioca]

Sounds good to me. Of course, you always have the problem of who's watching the watchers...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Chairface: What do you have against science? You say you only hate the science with negative consequences? All science has negative consequences, whether it be the time and money invested in it or something more... fatal. We must deal with these things.

 

You are right, however, when you say the geneforge was created by those seeking power rather than enlightenment. But, can the same not be said for all science? Almost everything ever invented had profit as one of the primary motivations. If they actually benefit society as well, it’s a bonus. The geneforge has too many possible benefits to be called a total failure just because of one mistake, that mistake being Trajkov.

 

Also, who says megalomaniacs are a bad thing? Alexander the Great took over the world once. After he did this, he made it a policy to spread knowledge all over his Empire, not to keep it from everyone, like you suggest. It is because of him that all the knowledge of the Greeks survived the Dark Ages.

 

Testing for Canisters: I do not approve of canisters, for they are not strong enough. Also, Randomizer is right, could the testers be bribed? Could someone fake sanity? Most likely. Canisters are not the answer. More research into the geneforge is what's needed! And who better to build new and improved geneforges than someone who has partaken of one themselves?

 

Cult: An interesting thought, though I believe no cult would be necessary. In the world of Geneforge, the only gods the people will ever need are themselves.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

The geneforge has too many possible benefits to be called a total failure just because of one mistake, that mistake being Trajkov.

I feel that Trajkov was one of the sucess stories, actually. He took all the power the Geneforge could give him while still managing to hold onto his sanity. Then he went and destroyed the Shaper empire and built his own in their place. It probably wasn't an empire much better than the Shapers (if at all), but it was a lot better than the death and destruction your character or Goettsch caused after they used the Geneforge.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Found Goettsch's name and fixed quote.

[*i]

Trajkov actually was a lot kinder to the Serviles and creations as I recall.

 

Power without wisdom generally leads to destruction. The Geneforge is not inherently bad, although it does have bad side effects. As long as the power is used reasonably that's fine. However, it's very difficult to ensure this.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

What's this? I have erred? You got me. I suppose what I meant to say was that the mistake was the way the Shapers left the geneforge behind to be found by outsiders in the first place.

 

You are correct, of course, Trajkov is the best example of the geneforge being used the way it was meant to be. He was a great man.

[Randomizer]

The geneforge was left behind because the creators thought that after a reasonable discussion their fellow shapers would continue the research. Even when the island was barred, they sneaked back to continue in secrecy and were buried there.

 

The shapers who used the geneforge in the endings of GF1 all seem to lose control. The apprentice playing GF1 hasn't got enough training to control his changes. The other shapers seem to all have personality disorders that were magnified by using it. These maybe be part of the shaper's arrogance that is manifest in GF3 when the apprentice makes demands for free supplies, etc. There seems to be hints that most shapers are normally this way.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Testing for Canisters: I do not approve of canisters, for they are not strong enough. Also, Randomizer is right, could the testers be bribed? Could someone fake sanity? Most likely. Canisters are not the answer. More research into the geneforge is what's needed! And who better to build new and improved geneforges than someone who has partaken of one themselves?

True, but it takes power to get power. The canisters, while dangerous, are a decent middle ground, so long as they're controlled.

Quote:

Cult: An interesting thought, though I believe no cult would be necessary. In the world of Geneforge, the only gods the people will ever need are themselves.

YIKES!
Hundreds of people with limitless power unleashing their wrath on each other, with no consideration for anyone caught in the middle, is asking for trouble. There were a few places in the Geneforge series where the zone was a desolate wasteland because of power-hungry warlords. If every person held this power, the only thing left of that world will be a few scattered desert islands. In other words, Armageddon.

That said, I was hoping I wouldn't get dragged into this. This already was a difficult issue, but Emperor Tullegolar always seems to be able to counter you, no matter how clever your argument is.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Even if they did sneak back the experiments were still left there for anyone to find. I can't help but wonder why on earth the Council did not take more direct control over such powerful and important research. Did they actually think it was more than they could handle? Did there bottomless arrogance actually fail them?

 

As for magnifying personality disorders: I must point out the Drakons in Geneforge 2 and 3. They went from being cruel and unreasonable to actually deciding to spare your life after you helped them. This is good evidence for the possibility of perfecting geneforge technology to not make you crazy.

 

Edit: Nioca: You say it takes power to get power. This is why the geneforge must be used. The canisters are not a middle ground, they are obsolete.

 

As for people being gods: who says they can not be benevolent ones? Once they have all the power in the world they will have little else to do other than reflect on such things as philosophy and good leadership. Only then will they be truly perfect, true gods.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
The shapers who used the geneforge in the endings of GF1 all seem to lose control. The apprentice playing GF1 hasn't got enough training to control his changes. The other shapers seem to all have personality disorders that were magnified by using it. These maybe be part of the shaper's arrogance that is manifest in GF3 when the apprentice makes demands for free supplies, etc. There seems to be hints that most shapers are normally this way.

I think this pretty much sums it up. The slightest flaw in someones personality can leave them unhinged after using the geneforge. When the geneforge can be used without the person becoming a genocidal doomsday weapon, then by all means, have everyone use it. Untill then, distribute small quantities of canisters.

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
As for magnifying personality disorders: I must point out the Drakons in Geneforge 2 and 3. They went from being cruel and unreasonable to actually deciding to spare your life after you helped them. This is good evidence for the possibility of perfecting geneforge technology to not make you crazy.

I'll point out that, in GF2 and 3, they remain cruel and unreasonable. Only now, they are cruel, unreasonable, and very powerful. Nasty combo.

Quote:

As for people being gods: who says they can not be benevolent ones? Once they have all the power in the world they will have little else to do other than reflect on such things as philosophy and good leadership. Only then will they be truly perfect, true gods.

There could be a few benevolent ones. But most of them would be to busy trying to get more power to care. Besides, if they all have the same power, they're no longer gods, are they?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

They don't remain cruel and unreasonable. Like I said, they let you live among them in peace. In Geneforge 3, they even care enough about you to rescue you from the Shapers in the ending. It would seem the geneforge did not magnify their hatred, but opened their eyes to the fact that a Shaper could be a friend.

 

You all seem to use the argument that a geneforge would lead to gods battling against each other. I suppose this is a good point. You have convinced me of the following: no more than one person at a time should have geneforge powers. It has been proven that these powers do not make one invincible, so I suspect a crappy ruler would be overthrown if necessary. Otherwise, that ruler would pretty much spend his time perfecting himself, and he would expect the same of his subjects.

[Crafterlord]

Emperor is back I see.

 

So, if there were a secret group that would lead that ruler who has those powers (by saying they will kill him/her if he/she doesn't obey their will), who would be counted as the leader.

 

Now I mean all do have points, but IF this happened, what would happen?

 

One man doesn't win the war. People are the power.

 

Of course, this group, would it have a leader (possibly elected) or would it be, well, I don't know if the word is correct, democratistic group?

 

Adn the last thing... while the geneforge should be researched and the best one to research would be those who have used it, it isn't requirement... you just can study some people who, let's say, are murderers/people who have committed serious crimes, and have geneforge.