Shapers keeping secrets

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Everyone does have access to nuclear technology, you just have to know where to look. Once again, it is the matter of having the means. If you actually have the connections and the cold hard cash to obtain your very own nuclear warhead, then you are probably worthy of being considered a one man nation. The governments that were unable to stop you must now consider you their equal.

[Retlaw May]

My problem with your argument is that you have absolutly no regard for the consequensess of actions or the long term reprocussions.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Incorrect. I am the only one, it seems, that does think about the long term repercussions. While everyone else is concerned with what will happen in the the short term, which includes war, destruction, and chaos, I am the one that truly sees the whole picture, the new advancements, new ways of thinking, and new ways of living. I am surprised you believe the opposite.

 

A more plausible argument for you would have been that Tullegolites not care about the means to the end. This is true, we don’t.

[Micawber]

Tullegolite bah. Machiavellian bah. Don't dignify this philosophy with a fancy name. This is pure aggression. 'Winning is all that matters', 'we must have this in case the others get it', 'my nuclear weapon is bigger than yours'. Ever watch Dr Strangelove?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Micawber:
Tullegolite bah. Machiavellian bah. Don't dignify this philosophy with a fancy name. This is pure aggression. 'Winning is all that matters', 'we must have this in case the others get it', 'my nuclear weapon is bigger than yours'. Ever watch Dr Strangelove?

Dr. Strangelove was a brilliant film.

Unfortunately, the ways of Machiavelli and myself take the world for what it is, resulting in our unpopularity. Sure, it would be great if everyone would throw down their weapons and seek a higher path, but this is not going to happen. You must be realistic, you must see thing for how they really are and make due with that. The world is evil, people only ever seek to benefit their own situation, and I am merely trying to create a philosophy that takes these facts into account. If you choose a higher path, I will be proud. But don't expect others to be as understanding as I. They will cut you in half the second you lower your weapon. Don't worry, though, I'll name the "Micawber Memorial Geneforge Research Facility" after you when you're gone.

[Retlaw May]

Have you ever read The Prince? I have and I can tell you that while an interesting read, it is way outdated. The basics it outlines barely even fit to our time period anymore. If you were born 400+ years ago, your way might have worked, but in this age it never would. Also, it can't deal with the Geneforge world either since he never really thought of a world where there are hundreds of individuals who, if one went out of control, could wipe out all humans if he/she wanted or was simply absent minded.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

As usually, I must disagree on all points. Most, if not all of The Prince can apply to today's world. I would like you to name one of his theories that doesn't. My personal favorite is the rule "do not wound the prince." Just imagine if there was an assassination attempt on George Bush that failed. His popularity would increase ten fold. The movie Bob Roberts was about just this. I recommend that movie.

 

The primary rule in The Prince was that it was better to be feared than loved, because love is fickle. True. While the people's love of Bush waned, he won the election because people were afraid to change horses in the middle of the stream. Fear always wins. You must remember, The Prince was not a guide on how to be a beloved ruler. It was a guide on how to gain power and keep it.

 

But perhaps it does not apply to the Geneforge world, after all. If anything, I think Machiavelli would be more harsh when it comes to shaping than he was when it came to medieval rulership. He would be a Barzite, undoubtedly. He would say take all the power you can get as fast as you can. I do not agree with this. But then, I am no Machiavelli. I am Tullegolar.

[Goldengirl]

I fail to see how an assassination attempt would make Bush more famous. Sure Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, but he's famous for what he did not being killed. There was a president in the early 1900s who was killed. He helped the economy along a little, but you don't hear historians saying he was famous.

 

On the point of Bush being reelected, I saw it was merely because there was no significantly better choice. Also, your "Tollegolite" philosophy says that that no one should attack the high ruler. Yet also says that powerful people have the right to kill the high ruler.

 

Lastly I believe the Ancient Shapers should have killed all destroyed everything on Sucia Island. Serviles, creations, books, villages, canisters and Geneforge, the whole lot of them should have been destroyed. Of course that would make a boring game wouldn't it.

 

Oh and Tullegolar, I beg you to stop speaking as if this game series is fact.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I had hoped I wouldn't need to spell things out like this, but if you insist. The rule was, I repeat, "do not wound the prince." Lincoln and McKinley (the early 1900's president as you know him) were not wounded, they were killed. There is a difference. Should a leader be wounded, however, he would be seen as a survivor, a living martyr, a warrior, almost, wounded in the battle that is his leadership. Take Reagan or Pope John Paul II: both had assassination attempts on them, both were amazingly popular.

 

Tullegolite philosophy believes that anyone can overthrow the government. I don't remember ever saying the leaders could not be attacked. Did you make that up for filler, or did you actually think you could confuse me?

 

Finally, why would you destroy the geneforge? It is the pinnacle of shaper technology! It is the next step in evolution! To deny this to the world would be tragic crime, the genocide of the future, if you will.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Finally, why would you destroy the geneforge? It is the pinnacle of shaper technology! It is the next step in evolution! To deny this to the world would be tragic crime, the genocide of the future, if you will.

Even assuming that others have a right in principle to attempt to overthrow you, why on earth would you want to help them gain the ability to do so?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Even assuming that others have a right in principle to attempt to overthrow you, why on earth would you want to help them gain the ability to do so?

I actually answered this before, but this thread is getting so long I can understand if you missed it. The leaders would make basic shaping available to everyone, but they would keep advanced devices, such as the geneforge, to themselves. This way, the government would not be overthrown every five minutes; this would be total chaos. No, they would really need to be incompetent to be brought down.

The geneforge would be the ultimate prize. Though it would make the leaders powerful, they would not be invincible, as the bosses of Geneforge 2 and 3 revealed. The geneforge should be revered, and never taken for granted.

But I'm still giving the subjects the ability to overthrow the government? Yes. It makes for a powerful civilization. It is in a world where everyone seeks to make themselves stronger and better themselves that the greatest advances in technology are made. If you do not believe me, just look at the whole of human history. As for the leaders: best that they be kept on their toes as well.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Tullegolar, while I doubt I'd have worry about hearing you say that to my face, I assure you, I am no coward.

 

There's nothing "cowardly" about thinking about all of the consequences to a particular path in technology; it's a practical, rational application of theory and research. Rushing to use new methods and technology thinking it's a "miracle science" that will revolutionize our lives without adverse effect is the same line of thinking that gave us nuclear waste, global warming, deforestation, carcinogens, and any of the other environmental concerns we face. There is no "miracle technology," even in a fantasy world where magic is real. Every human action has a cost and a benefit and a sincere, intelligent pursuit of technologyacknowledges this and deeply considers the consequences before advancing. There a lot of issues that are unpredictable and that have to be dealt with as they arise, but in terms of the Geneforge, it's well known that it tends to

 

A)drive people crazy

 

or

 

B)fill them with more power than they were meant to handle, and an overwhelming urge to abuse that power.

 

A society where everyone has the power to overthrow the government doesn't lead to prosperity, it leads to anarchy and chaos as different factions try to assert their dominance over the others. I don't know what history YOU'RE referencing, but all the history I know of points to infighting, political instability, and the eventual decline of a civilization resulting from opposing sides "fighting it out" to see who deserves to lead.

 

Also, if calling the Soviet's bluff during the Cuban Missile Crisis was a simple as you claim, why did the Cold War continue well into the 80s, and didn't effectively end until the Soviet economy finally crumbled? The Cold War could have ended with a fizzle once we saw they weren't really ready to launch their warheads at a moment's notice. Yet the tension and paranoia carried on for almost another 30 years, peaking right before the end in the Reagan administration. Any good scientist or engineer will tell you you should always err on the side of caution. Recklessly pursuing a field of study and betting against a catastrophe or playing chicken with someone daring them to abuse it isn't bold or courageous: it's outright stupidity.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Progress has losers, this is a fact of life. While I'm not sure this is how it has to be, thus is human nature. Sure, millions have died, the forests are disappearing, but I'll bet you wouldn't be willing to give up your computer and local supermarket to stop it. But, do not be ashamed, few would. In the world of Geneforge, it is the same, only to the extremes. Sure, more people will suffer before a new advancement can be made, but it is not logical to assume that, in the future, more will benefit from it?

 

As for overthrowing the government leading to anarchy, this is simply not true. In the year 1992, the government of the United States of America was overthrown, and a new leader was proclaimed. Tullegolite government would be the same way, only you would vote with violence rather than a hanging-chad or whatever. Barbaric? Yes. But I believe it is fitting to the world of Geneforge.

 

As for the Cold War, it did not apply strictly to nuclear weapons, though they tended to take the spotlight. The Cold War was really just two nations constantly trying to upstage one another with new weapons and technology, and it ended. And now there is a clear leader in world politics. The Tullegolite government would be the same: periods of warfare spaced out with periods of peace in between. Similar to the European system from the 18th through 20th centuries, the balance of power That's horribly backwards, you say? True. But again, I find it fitting to the world of Geneforge.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

Here are a few thoughts.

 

1) The shapers have created their own problems by building a secretive society. Secretive societies build paranoia.

 

2) Because they are paranoid societies, they naturally splinter into different factions, equally as paranoid as the originals.

 

3) They keep on repeating their same mistakes by copying the previous secretive societies which have been uncovered in their records.

 

4) This creates continuous new factions and internal warfare. If there were no slaves they would tear their society apart.

 

Ha...

 

As far as the problem with the geneforge. It is very easy to approach the power of the geneforged if done right. However, this requires a lot of training and uses powerful magical items, spell books, etc. In other words you have to become enlightened in studying all the spells, super items, etc.

 

It would be interesting to see a meditative focus that could be learned which would not drive the characters insane.

 

It would be interesting to see a way to develop a series of quests that could make a character almost as strong as the geneforged, that would not be available to the geneforged.

 

If you become geneforged, you get insanity with the power of the enlightened. A very nasty combination.

 

It would be cool if there was a "Book of Awakening", used by a strange sect of awakened that had a series of quests that didn't drive the characters insane and gave some nice bonuses. Very heretical of course.

[Drakefyre]

Serviles can get magical powers through self-flagellation.

[Randomizer]

GF1 said that the crazed Taker cultist gained some magic powers by following a regime similar to Shaper agents. By GF2 they were altering serviles in order to bypass the rigorous training that was driving them crazy. It didn't do that much for their sanity.

 

Loss of sanity seems to be a byproduct of gaining power without the training to prepare oneself. Maybe if properly trained one could use a geneforge without losing control.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Finally someone who understands! Thanks you for your most well thought out points, Sir Toast. However, I do not like the direction you and Randomizer are headed towards. You mean I actually have to work in order to get the power and the sanity? Ouch. I would much rather put all resources towards creating a refined Geneforge. But that is much work as well? Yes, but it is work I could force upon other people, and then take all the instant gratification for myself.

 

But that is just my humble Imperial opinion. As far as the game and its plot goes, taking the time to learn to use the geneforge properly would be a worthy addition, since the point of a game is not instant gratification but the hard work involved in reaching such goals. This idea gets a most reluctant Emperor’s Seal of Approval™.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Quote:

As for overthrowing the government leading to anarchy, this is simply not true. In the year 1992, the government of the United States of America was overthrown, and a new leader was proclaimed. Tullegolite government would be the same way, only you would vote with violence rather than a hanging-chad or whatever. Barbaric? Yes. But I believe it is fitting to the world of Geneforge.

There's a big difference between actually overthrowing a government and selecting a new democratically elected leader. Even if the presidents, supreme court justices, senators, and other officials of the US hold only temporary and replaceable positions, it's not quite the same thing as hunting down every member of the aristocracy and putting them under a guillotine during the French Revolution. Also, even IF a policy of "might makes right" was acceptable, there's absolutely no safeguard that those with the power to impose their will act in the best interests of all or that it will lead to a society that values advancement. Real world examples such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam Hussein, the conquistadors, and the Spanish Inquisition show this, just to name the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Quote:

As for the Cold War, it did not apply strictly to nuclear weapons, though they tended to take the spotlight. The Cold War was really just two nations constantly trying to upstage one another with new weapons and technology, and it ended. And now there is a clear leader in world politics. The Tullegolite government would be the same: periods of warfare spaced out with periods of peace in between. Similar to the European system from the 18th through 20th centuries, the balance of power That's horribly backwards, you say? True. But again, I find it fitting to the world of Geneforge.

The point you're missing is that the Cold War and nuclear proliferation left a legacy that future generations have no other choice in facing. Many of the dismantled and recalled warheads are missing and now in the hands of terrorists or unstable political states. Even the ones that can be accounted for have half lifes of millions of years, and there's no where to neatly dispose of them so they don't become "someone else's problem" before that time comes. Geneforges are similar: they are hard to produce, dangerous, and require large amounts of unhealthy energy and noxious chemicals to maintain. Also it's impossible to keep the information from falling into "the wrong hands" once an actual policy of researching and developing them becomes accepted. All it takes is a dedicated faction of maladjusted, politically dissident individuals with the enrgy and resources to develop their own Geneforges and use them to their own ends. It's the same thing as Iran, Syria, and North Korea having nuclear weapons, or Saddam Hussein researching biological and chemical weapons. Already bad technology made even worse by being in the hands of very bad people.

The idea of allowing Geneforges because they're "cool" or for all the nifty powers they can give is like opening Pandora's box because it looks pretty. Allowing people to have access to such power or even restricting it to those "meritous" to receive it is putting too much faith in the ability of humans to resist abusing that power and is rolling the dice with armegeddon.

[VCH]

Why is the U.S. the only country that can have nuclear weapons? The way I see it if they have them everybody should. Its none of their business if Korea has nuclear weapons. Is it the worlds business? Yes. But the US getting all pissed because somebody else has certain weapons is stupid.

[Micawber]

Unenthusiastic though I am about US foreign policy, I am still many orders of magnitude more comfortable with the US having nuclear weapons than, say, Zimbabwe.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
Also it's impossible to keep the information from falling into "the wrong hands" once an actual policy of researching and developing them becomes accepted.

You assume that ET believes there's even such a thing as "the wrong hands". His philosophy of power seems to be that anyone who has the ability to do something has therefore earned the right to do it. I hope he won't be offended if I call this a fascist view, since that's pretty much literally what it is.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Chairface: You say that might makes right governments don't lead to progress? I'll use your own examples: Hitler, he brought Germany out of an economic recession that was far worse than the American Great Depression. Stalin, he brought all farm land under control of the state, causing many peasants to lose their farming jobs. Those peasants then moves to the cities and, using the resulting urbanization, Stalin started the Industrial Revolution in Russia. Mao did something similar, he transformed China from a medieval state to a world industrial power. Conquistadors, they rid the world of the backwards society of the Incas and Aztecs, bringing new technology and ideas to those forsaken lands. Inquisition and Saddam: well, you can't always get it right.

 

Thuryl: Am I offended at being called a Fascist? No. I am, however, offended by the fact that Hitler and Mussolini are the only examples of Fascist governments and that they are the ones everyone associates with the word. They both had massive shortcomings, and in the end, they were too weak and stupid to maintain control in Europe.

 

Disclaimer: I do not approve of the destruction of the Native American Empires or of the Holocaust. It disappoints me that those that carried out these acts do fit my description for the perfect government, but keep in mind that these governments all failed in the end and were replaced by a superior power. That is the way of the Tullegolite.

[Retlaw May]

ET, for all of your talk of eventuall progress is faulty, progress (or at least non-military progress) cannot come if the world is in constant turmoil and death. You know what usually instates progress? Surpluses: surplus of food, surplus of money, etc. But with your philosophy, there will be non of this. Crops will die from diseases created by random people with no true Shaper training or the soil will loose all nutrients because farmers are creating plants that grow to fast and too much. People will be afraid to form their own oppinions in fear of being killed by an unstable person in the area who is vying for power.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Wrong. It is in times of warfare that progress flourishes the most. If everyone has shaping powers, how can there not be surpluses? Plenty of delicious ornks, lots of lumber, hordes of serviles to work mines, and tons and tons of magical artifacts!

 

But all this magic will eventually destroy the land itself? Maybe, but I am confident that shaper ingenuity will prevail, and it can all be repaired with a little effort. If not, then only the weak will really die off. The strongest and smartest will always find a way to survive.

[Randomizer]

ET - GF2 has a lot of descriptions of how shaper power fails to promote the improvements that you think will happen. Drypeak is being overrun by a shaper created tree that can grow, but doesn't produce useful products. Sucia Island shaping did produce a green area beyond the secret tunnel, but it is too early to tell how stable the creations will be. There are enough creation failures running around to say that opening up shaping skills will benefit more than harm.

 

As to war producing more than peace, it depends upon the technology that you are talking about. WW II brought us the nuclear bomb, advances in radar, some improvements in medicine to keep soldiers alive, and other things to aid the war effort. In peace there is a different emphasis in how to allocate research resources.

 

Opening up technology to everyone works only when there is a strong system in place to check abuses. That's why there is the worry about Iran getting a nuclear bomb. Having someone in control of a major destructive technology that believes he is doing God's work by using it and that surviving it this world doesn't matter doesn't compare to the Cold War where both sides wanted to survive the use of the bomb. Cannister addiction and using the Geneforge both tend to produce insane individuals that now have a different perspective about the lesser creatures (humans) that are bothering him.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Thuryl: Am I offended at being called a Fascist? No. I am, however, offended by the fact that Hitler and Mussolini are the only examples of Fascist governments and that they are the ones everyone associates with the word. They both had massive shortcomings, and in the end, they were too weak and stupid to maintain control in Europe.

Disclaimer: I do not approve of the destruction of the Native American Empires or of the Holocaust. It disappoints me that those that carried out these acts do fit my description for the perfect government, but keep in mind that these governments all failed in the end and were replaced by a superior power. That is the way of the Tullegolite.

So basically, history tells you that governments that believe that might makes right consistently end up being overpowered by governments that don't believe that might makes right. Doesn't that seem like a pretty heavy blow to your philosophy? After all, if might makes right, and governments that refuse to believe that might makes right are mightier, then it's right to refuse to believe that might makes right.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Wrong. It is in times of warfare that progress flourishes the most. If everyone has shaping powers, how can there not be surpluses? Plenty of delicious ornks, lots of lumber, hordes of serviles to work mines, and tons and tons of magical artifacts!

Wait, did you just say that war creates surpluses of resources for general consumption? That's got to be one of the most obviously false things I've ever heard.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Quote:

Why is the U.S. the only country that can have nuclear weapons? The way I see it if they have them everybody should. Its none of their business if Korea has nuclear weapons. Is it the worlds business? Yes. But the US getting all pissed because somebody else has certain weapons is stupid.

The reason the US gets pissed that a totalitarian communist regime that doesn't respect the civil or even basic human rights of its citizens studying neuclear weaponary is because its dimunitive megalomaniacal tyrant with a Napolean complex is one of the few people insane and stupid enough to use such technology without concern for consequence or retaliation. That and the fact that the US and Russia have gone through great pains to disarm and dismantle their stockpiles, and the prospect of unstable states getting their hands on such dangerous technology just to play "me too" is bad for everybody, not just the US.

Quote:

You say that might makes right governments don't lead to progress? I'll use your own examples: Hitler, he brought Germany out of an economic recession that was far worse than the American Great Depression. Stalin, he brought all farm land under control of the state, causing many peasants to lose their farming jobs. Those peasants then moves to the cities and, using the resulting urbanization, Stalin started the Industrial Revolution in Russia. Mao did something similar, he transformed China from a medieval state to a world industrial power. Conquistadors, they rid the world of the backwards society of the Incas and Aztecs, bringing new technology and ideas to those forsaken lands. Inquisition and Saddam: well, you can't always get it right.

Wow. Where do I even begin with this? First of all, Hitler ended teh depression at the expense of the "undesirables;" if you round up all the Jews, mentally ill, homosexual, Gypsies, and ethnic minorities and seize their assets, it's easy to get money for nothing. That, and shifting the economy into the development of a war machine allows you to build plenty of tanks and fightercraft but it doesn't do much for the average citizen. Stalin ran Russia into the ground and created a cult of personality that didn't dare question his judgement, at least loud enough to be heard, unless you wanted to be taken to the Pogroms by the KGB. Mao's national brainwashing only managed to ruin China's cultural history and growth. I don't know what world industrial power you're talking about -- China is still in the process of transitioning from a developing nation and besides a handful of cities, is mostly rural. The Incas and Aztecs were just as "civilized" as their European counterparts, the only difference being they didn't have the guns or immunity to small pox neccesary to write history from their perspective.

No nation based on drastic social upheaval has ever lasted more than two generations. If research into the Geneforge was opened up and rebllion was encouraged according to your "philosophy," whatever would be left of humanity in Geneforge would live in a barely habitable wasteland, split into tribes warring over secrets and information that would allow their sect to build a better Geneforge than their enemies and crush them so their will reigns supreme. Nothing can flourish in a world of endless war. Technology actually slows during war because the focus is shifted from a fundamental understanding of a field to the fastest and most applicable use to deter or conquer you enemies.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Allow me to say again that I do not approve of canisters, and I only approve of the geneforge because it can be used to reach the next step, which is a refined geneforge that doesn't make you crazy. As for shaping powers destroying the land, I have not seen sufficient evidence of this. Rising and Medab look like nice places to live. Would you rather live in Drypeak? (don't misinterpret this, I am referring to these cities geographically, not politically)

 

Thuryl: The historical earthly ‘might makes right’ rulers were stupid and weak. Had Japan not attacked the U.S. and Germany not attacked the U.S.S.R., the war would have ended differently. But then look at the world today, I see the United States, which is the uncontested most powerful country in the world, as a ‘might makes right’ nation. They invade whom they please, despite the dissension of the rest of the world and their own citizens. Why? Because they can - I mean... because it's their duty.

 

Kelandon: Another misinterpretation, read the quote again. I said progress flourishes during times of war, meaning there are many new scientific advancements. Then I said that shaping would allow for surpluses. The shaping concept can’t really be applied to real life.

 

Chairface: No. Hitler didn't end the depression in Germany by taking money from the Jews and giving to other citizens. Do you really think that was all there was to it? Who taught you history? As for building tanks and whatnot, that gives jobs to the average citizen, doesn't it? When the government purchases weapons, it is increasing the nation's GDP, which also benefits the common citizen. Stalin and Mao did bring industrialization to their nations, no matter what you say. Russia was eventually brought down by the Cold War, but even today they benefit from the industrialization that took place under Stalin. As for China, they produce 90% of everything that Americans buy. The one reason that I am not afraid of a China vs. U.S. War ever breaking out is because neither side wants to lose the trading partner. Finally, the Aztecs would have lines of men, women and children four bodies wide that would stretch on for miles leading up to the tops of their temples where they would all then be sacrificed the removal of the victims heart. Civilized? They sound like genocidal maniacs to me.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

If research into the Geneforge was opened up and rebellion was encouraged according to your "philosophy," whatever would be left of humanity in Geneforge would live in a barely habitable wasteland, split into tribes warring over secrets and information that would allow their sect to build a better Geneforge than their enemies and crush them so their will reigns supreme.

Wouldn't you want to play that game? I would.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
If research into the Geneforge was opened up and rebellion was encouraged according to your "philosophy," whatever would be left of humanity in Geneforge would live in a barely habitable wasteland, split into tribes warring over secrets and information that would allow their sect to build a better Geneforge than their enemies and crush them so their will reigns supreme.

Wouldn't you want to play that game? I would.[/QB]

Would you want to live in that world? I wouldn't.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Most people couldn't handle it. This is understandable.

 

Edit: I have been accused, multiple times, in this thread of blurring the line between the Geneforge games and reality. But it seems I am the only one that is really trying to keep these two subjects separate.

[Retlaw May]

I'll tell you something ET, there would be no food in the Geneforge world if your philosophy was adapted. As for your belief of all these suto-Shapers creating a way to fix that 1)they wouldn't have the training 2)anyone with any power would be using it for destructive purpouses.

Also, as for your coment as you being the only one keeping the boundries between the real world and that of Geneforge, that is a joke. What you may interpret as the others blurring the line is just reponse to your eratic jumping of topics and examples. You concede something in one post, but are using it again in the next.

[Randomizer]

Allowing access to shaping technology to anyone with the resources to develope it would be a disaster. The Sholai when they discovered Sucia Island started experimenting without the safeguards that experienced Shapers used. This resulted in some Sholai researchers being killed by their new modified creations. That is why Shapers have so many sealed labs and barred areas to contain their mistakes until they can be dealt with safely.

 

Even under controlled conditions mistakes escape into the world. The disease that infects the man in Fort Kentia (GF3) is one example. The trees in Drypeak (GF2) are another where something got out before it was fully tested.

 

A war between geneforge enhanced people who are fully trained would unleash more terrors than benefits. In the rush to defeat the others there would be less concern with adequate precautions.

[*i]

Quote:

Why is the U.S. the only country that can have nuclear weapons? The way I see it if they have them everybody should. Its none of their business if Korea has nuclear weapons. Is it the worlds business? Yes. But the US getting all pissed because somebody else has certain weapons is stupid.

If all things were equal, you would have a valid point. The US and the old Soviet Union made a lot of effort at maintaining world security. Now, we could argue specific policies were incorrect all day, but that's not the point.

Who else patrols the oceans with large navies to keep piracy down? Who else makes provides manpower to help defeat aggressive acts and address humanitarian crises? Who else goes to extreme measures to root out terrorist groups around the world? Who else invests a large amount of its resources ensuring dangerous materials (such as nuclear warheads) do not end up in the hands of those who would actually use them? Who else defends their own materials and ensures they don't accidentally goes off to the same degree?

There are many countries who do part of this, but, by and large, the US carries the brunt of the "world police" duties. A lot of countries like that we do these things, but don't actually like it when we do them. Call it somewhat schizoid, but politics need not be logically consistent.

Is the US perfect? Of course not. Should the US have done things differently? No one would argue. But like it or not, the US plays a dominant role in maintaining world security and the world would be a lot worse off without it.

So why should the US even have nuclear weapons? Well, if we look at how war has evolved since WWII, they've become much smaller in scale because the costs of a large scale war are too high. Such wars become, in essence, unwinnable. Both sides may lose, but the agressor cannot win. This takes out all motivation for large scale conventional warfare.

The problem is that nuclear weapons do not preclude "unconventional war" like the terrorist threats we face today. The problem is with asymmetry. Use of nuclear weapons on disperate groups is impractical especially when there is no sponsor state. However, their use upon a nationstate such as the US would be a major benefit to them since their goals are to strike fear and cause death.

The risk means terrorists or those without territories should not have them. Since they, in effect, have no instant retalliatory consequences of using them. But what about other nation states like North Korea or Iran? Well, the problem is that they do not partake in global security responsibilities. In fact, they have actively encouraged disorder and disobeyed treaties. Because of this, there is no motivation to covertly give such a weapon to a terrorist entity for asymmetrical war purposes. In effect, they have not demonstrated a commitment to global security and would gain by giving such a weapon to a terroist group.

So it's easy to argue for egalitarianism with nuclear weapons. However, in practice these things cannot work because the costs to globabl security are prohibitively high.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Retlaw: Of course there would be food, that's what serviles are for. Shouldn’t serviles have the same rights that I'm saying all humans should have? Of course not! Preposterous!

 

Randomizer: The Sholai got more power than they deserved. Tullegolite philosophy believes in basic power for all, but also in earning new powers through feats of strength. The shapers foolishly abandoned the geneforge for anyone to find instead of keeping it to themselves, this was their fault, not mine. As for mistakes, they are inevitable, yet another means of rooting out the weak, there was a cure for that guy's disease, he was just not powerful enough to find it.

 

*i: Yes, yes yes! The United States is an excellent example of my philosophy in action! They are the ones who were able to rise above all other warring factions (European nations) and take control of the world themselves. Now they make it their duty to keep the world on it's toes, lest they ever be overpowered by another country. They also support overthrowing of the government (elections), and they believe in equal opportunity for all, though not necessarily equal means. My idea government would be more meritocratic the the United State’s current system, however.

 

I believe that the most powerful factions have a right to deprive the lesser ones of certain things, such as nukes or geneforges. However, should these lesser players succeed in gaining these things anyway, they have earned the right to be on equal ground with the other world leaders. The United States has a right to stop another nation from researching nuclear weapons, but should they do it anyway, they have earned the right. The same applies to geneforges, in my humble Imperial opinion.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Retlaw: Of course there would be food, that's what serviles are for.

But serviles taste horrible!

(Sorry. I know what you meant, but I couldn't resist.)

[Retlaw May]

No servile could plant in the dead ground that would result from your philosophy.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
Who else patrols the oceans with large navies to keep piracy down? Who else makes provides manpower to help defeat aggressive acts and address humanitarian crises? ... [T]he US carries the brunt of the "world police" duties.

I don't think the US does a particularly large share of addressing humanitarian crises, though I could be wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure the US Navy is a little overpowered for the job of keeping down piracy.

The United States is a military superpower, but like most nation states it pursues its own interests as perceived by its government of the day. It doesn't tend to spend its taxpayers' billions or its servicemen's lives on causes that do not serve its interests, however noble they might be. People often point this out as though it were damning, but I don't see too many other countries lining up to die for noble causes either.

I think that eventually humanity will get a global police force, but the United States' military is not it. In my opinion it should neither be praised for being what it isn't, nor blamed for not being so.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
No servile could plant in the dead ground that would result from your philosophy.

I suppose you have a point there. There must be some kind of alternate food source...

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
But serviles taste horrible!

I know, I know. But if what Retlaw here says is true we may have no other choice. Hmm, if we can make battle serviles and exploding serviles, then surely we can make extra meaty serviles that taste like cotton candy.

Edit: Seriously though, you're overthinking this. If the mages of Avernum can find a way to grow food on a solid rock cave floor with no light, then surely the shapers, who specialize in the area of creating new life forms, would be able to create food that grows in a wasteland. Simple as that.

[Randomizer]

Shapers can create food crops, as in GF2 beyond Drypeak. The question is whether there will be unintended consequences that have occured in other shaper plants. The crops might over run the area and cause new problems.

 

Of course there is always vlish if they can make it delicious.

[Retlaw May]

Mmm... Calamari...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Sure there is always a possibility of a shaper plant growing out of control, but is it a bad thing to have food growing everywhere? If it suddenly becomes inedible for some reason, then I'm sure the plant in question could easily be wiped out with a simple application of shaper violence. If there is one thing the shapers do well, its destroying things.

 

As for vlish, they are undoubtedly the tastiest of all shaper creations, even tastier than ornks. The only problem is that they have so little meat on them.

[Student of Trinity]

Not so. As Delicious Vlish likes to remind us, one of the games (G2?) has a text box which states that Vlish were deliberately designed to taste bad. There is as yet no canonical verdict on the flavors of other creations. But G4 isn't finished yet.

 

Having recently stared hard at the large scale Vlish art from G3, I have to correct something I wrote quite a while ago. Vlish have not two tentacles, but three.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Sure there is always a possibility of a shaper plant growing out of control, but is it a bad thing to have food growing everywhere? If it suddenly becomes inedible for some reason, then I'm sure the plant in question could easily be wiped out with a simple application of shaper violence. If there is one thing the shapers do well, its destroying things.

As for vlish, they are undoubtedly the tastiest of all shaper creations, even tastier than ornks. The only problem is that they have so little meat on them.

The problem of the plants growing too much isn't that they will take the land over, but that they will suck all the nutrients out of the soil.

[Crafterlord]

Hmm. I'm under impression that our Emperor is all about progress. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Progression can be achieved by strong destroying the weak? Interesting point. And if somebody wants to be strong, if he can do it, what is the problem? Actually, this reminds me of Dostovjevski.

 

Let us invent thing called "Overall Happiness". This is the sum of how much food all have, do most of people have good homes etc. So, if strong use war to destroy weak, isn't this "Overall Happiness" either rised or lowered? If this war brings us progression, then "Overall Happiness" is increased.

 

But if this war leads us to a country where all fear for their life, or to anarchy, where you still fear for your life, or to a country where there isn't just enough food for everyone etc? Then "Overall Happiness" is lowered.

 

Now to progression. The end of progression is perfection, no? When is this perfection achieved?

 

What do we fight for? If we fight for power, we have to have a reason to have power. If we all had enough food, good houses, that stuff, why would somebody fight?

 

So, should we research for that Geneforge that doesn't make you insane, so all... no, those who won't abuse the power, can do research on how to make our all lifes perfect.

 

But the same time people are getting angry, for research takes time. And they rebel, for they want happy lifes quickly.

 

Because of that, they shouldn't be allowed power without somebody to watch over them. I think somebody, maybe the Emperor, talked about that at some time.

 

All the point with this is... I'm tired, I probably haven't got the point of the discussion and I'm stupid. And I hope that I at least did SOMETHING.

 

(Send me e-mail if you want to explain me the point of this discussion in private)

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Retlaw: Did you hear anything I said? Or are you seriously afraid that the plants that would be specially created to grow in nutrient-free soils would make the soil more nutrient-free than it already is? The Tullegolite philosophy has many holes in it, but this is not one of them.

 

Crafterlord: What you are describing sounds much like utilitarianism, correct me if I'm wrong. Utilitarianism means, in as few words as possible "greatest amount of happiness for the greatest amount of people." I do not agree with this philosophy.

 

If you try to spread happiness around more evenly, then those at the top are the ones that lose. You can't have this. Madness? Contemplate this: scientific advancement and progress can only happen if you have an elite class wealthy enough to keep interest in and fund it. Look at human history, the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution happened because it was during a period in European history where elite became so fat and bored they figured 'hey, let's do science!' So you see, a large gap in the economy is preferable if you want progress in science and technology.

 

It works out though, because said advances generally lead to a higher standard of living for all, given time.

[Frozen Feet]

It also leads to mass consummation of resources and other, even less pleasant things as we have seen. Fastest development is not always the best way. Slower pace will eventually get us to the same point, but because the amount of resources needed is spread over a larger amount of time, there will be less problems. Or, at least, we won't run in to all of the problems at once.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
If you try to spread happiness around more evenly, then those at the top are the ones that lose. You can't have this.

Not entirely. Spreading happiness around does not mean you can't have a few wealthy elite. It just means that everyone gets a decent share, rather than those at the top hoarding everything for themselves.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
cientific advancement and progress can only happen if you have an elite class wealthy enough to keep interest in and fund it. ...[T]he Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution happened because it was during a period in European history where elite became so fat and bored they figured 'hey, let's do science!'

Absolutely. As a scientist my salary and research funding is paid entirely by the Count of Montecristo, who is so bored he posts regularly in message board debates. And when he departs after delivering my quarterly sack of doubloons I regularly hear him remark, as his footmen are levering his immense bulk back into his carriage, that if his peasants don't stop clamoring for a third meal a day he may have to cut my support.

[Crafterlord]

Well, I was once taught that nation aims for good of all. Then there is nation that aims for the good of only one, the leader.

 

I'm not sure if Emperor will think like this... so, we must first make the leader happy, so he isn't all depressed and has motivation to make all our lifes good?

 

Interesting person.

 

And I read the post again and am beginning to actually understand it... but, there is a point when your life simply cannot get better. You have more food that you can eat, all technology that has been made, as nice house as you can get (add your own things here).

 

At this point, it cannot be wrong to start research for better of everything, for if, say, make new kind of television that is better in every way, doesn't it benefit you too, this new technology?

 

Actually, this is what you are saying... thank you, Emperor.

 

Though people tend to get angry when you take all you want FIRST, even before the research that makes everything better. And this will, if nation isn't prepared, result in rebellion and overthrowing of the goverment... but now I remember Stalin (the point where all feared for their lifes and simply couldn't do anything out of the fear that they would be killed, also remember I haven't finished my studies yet, so there probably is something I haven't noticed).

 

You have strange way of talk, Emperor. No wonder some said you can't say what is real and what is game, though yes, you probably can see. People just tend to misunderstand, and this applies for my point in this post too. About science...