Shapers keeping secrets

[Randomizer]

What do you think about the shaper's need to keep things secret?

 

In Geneforge 1 there was Sucia Island being barred and the reason for it being kept secret. There is the great secret in the Temple of Spirits about shaper origins.

 

In Geneforge 2 you learn about the coverup of the events of GF1 on Sucia Island. The Shapers cover back up the secrets of the geneforge and the canisters. Even the shapers involved in Drypeak keep from the council what they are doing with that secret information.

 

In Geneforge 3 on Dhonal's Island you meet the purity inspector that destroys information that shouldn't be released to the general population. There is also the Sholai visitor searching for news of the earlier expedition led by Trajkov. The shapers say that he never made it and they never heard of him.

 

Knowledge is power and the Shaper council wants to control the release of all knowledge. Only shaper trained mages are allowed to learn certain spells. No release of creation information to mages.

 

Is the secrecy hurting the shaper society or keeping it stable until the rebellion forces it out into the open?

[AnarhIztok2511]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Is the secrecy hurting the shaper society or keeping it stable until the rebellion forces it out into the open?

Well, I believe it's like with any other thing.
If you do something wrong or something you're ashamed of, it can bring shortlived stability, but sooner or later, no matter how the secret keeping methods are strict, something has to come out, and then, I believe, it hurts you far more than it would if you came out clean at the beginning.
And also, in my opinion at least, a person that admits the mistakes might get more confidence, but this is another topic ...

[the Great Potato]

If it's out in the open you get more people trying their hand at making geneforges and augmenting serviles and all that mess. Better to keep it with people who know what they're doing.

[AnarhIztok2511]

Yes, that's true, but if it's secret only a handful of people will know or find out by luck on their own. And if these mean harm, then the geneforge will be in the wrong hands only, assuming the shapers don't use it anymore or just forget about it, like they did, of course.

If a lot know about it, maybe someone could figure a way to counteract it, like make a generestore or something.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by the Great Potato:
If it's out in the open you get more people trying their hand at making geneforges and augmenting serviles and all that mess. Better to keep it with people who know what they're doing.

This is exactly why everything should be out in the open. Serviles are terrible the way that they are; they should be augmented more often. Or better yet, why use serviles at all when you can use drakons?

I would lose control, you say? Not if there were more geneforges! Just imagine, that kind of power open to all those willing to take it. The world would surely be a better place. No more of this rogue creations nonsense. We would put them in their place. Them, and the Sholai, too.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I would lose control, you say? Not if there were more geneforges! Just imagine, that kind of power open to all those willing to take it. The world would surely be a better place. No more of this rogue creations nonsense. We would put them in their place. Them, and the Sholai, too.

Ever see the GF1 ending where you use the Geneforge and don't destroy it afterwards? It goes badly for pretty much everyone, including you.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Think about nuclear technology or bioweapon programs in the real world. Would you want any random bum off the street to have access to such potentially dangerous information, and take it on blind faith that they'd have the intelligence not to attempt to use it, for better or worse?

 

Shapers seem oppressive because they hoard away all magical knowledge, but in reality it's better that way. Just like how there's information the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. knows that they keep from being known from the public, which in the end is better for everybody. Say for instance everybody knew how to make homemade dynamite. All it would take is one person to abuse that knowledge to pose a highly dangerous threat to society at large. Even if the majority of the people knew how to make dynamite, they wouldn't waste their time with it. But the small handful of people that would would have a disproportionate tendency to use that knowledge to vandalous or malicious ends.

 

If certain information could allow somebody to release the equivalent destructive power of dynamite with nothing more than a thought and a wave of the hand, it would be wise to protect people from themselves by restricting who could gain that information, and rigorously testing them to ensure they wouldn't abuse the ability once they gain it.

[AnarhIztok2511]

OH, yeah!

Keep the secrets and if someone finds them, even by accident, just burn them all; and their families, especially little children,and everyone who's connected in any a small way with them.

 

COZ THAT'S JUSTICE AND FOR THE GOOD OF ALL!

 

I just don't see how it is good for the ashes of those who were butchered.

 

Well, don't get me wrong or anything, but if you keep the secrets, someone'll always find them out and then what'll you do?

If you leave them be, your secret is revealed and you've a lot of trouble.

If you don't want for your secret to come out you either kill them or destroy their life, along with the lives of the people they know, etc., in any other way. And thus you make it equally bad as if someone'd use your secret for malicios purposes.

[Drakefyre]

Shaping already makes people go crazy. It's not like it's a good thing. And people don't just stumble on Shaping. They work on it long and hard (serviles can give themselves magical powers through self-flagellation) and then go crazy.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Quote:

Originally written by Anarhiztok:
OH, yeah!
Keep the secrets and if someone finds them, even by accident, just burn them all; and their families, especially little children,and everyone who's connected in any a small way with them.

I must've missed the part of the game where they explain Agents kill entire families for one person learning magic in secret. More importantly, Agents are only dispatched when someone begins actively using unauthorized magic techniques. If you stumlbed on a Shaper book by accident and immediately handed it over to the Shapers the first chance you got, especially if you went out of your way to do it, I don't see anything in-game that shows they would actually execute your whole family just to make a point.

Even if they did, it's a very simple rule with very clear consequences: Shaper magic and techniques are dangerous, and it's best not to tamper with it for one's on personal safety as well as the safety of their community. The people who ignore this are usually megalomaniacal, sociopathic, deranged, or some combination of the three. Even if you incarcerate somebody you can't make them "unlearn" magic. It's more the fault of those who knowingly and willingly violate very simple laws with very harsh consequences (and arguably justified ones, at that) if Agents WERE to hunt down and kill then and everyone they knew just to make a point then it is Shaper order's fault for being inherently cruel. You don't want to face the punishment, don't break the rules.

Another real world example: Say someone wanted to secretly do anthrax research or make nitroglycerin in their garage. The very nature of what they're doing is dangerous to both themselves and their neighbors. There's a very simple law that says it's dangerous and illegal to do either activity, especially in a civillian community, yet they chose to do so anyway. If the FBI kicks in their door, raids their home, and interrogates everyone close to them as suspected accomplices, it's more the individual's fault for breaking a very simple law and putting all of their loved ones through that than it is the fault of the FBI for being heavy handed.

The best thing to do is to leave everything on a need to know basis. First of all, even if the Shapers WANTED to educate and inform outsiders of all of their failed and dangerous experimenters, they simply wouldn't have any effective way of implementing it, since the world of Geneforge is a technologically primitive society. They know magic which allows them to create lifeforms to use to their whims, but they don't have any fast and efficient means of spreading information. They don't have internet, television, radio, or even the printing press. Important documents are still replicated by hiring scribes.

Second, you have to face facts. Most outsiders are poor, illiterate people who lead simple lives. The majority would be apathetic to news of disasters in distant areas, and the few who would care wouldn't be educated or informed enough to process the information. It's more likely to cause panic and be counterproductive to people going about their daily business without living in fear of things that aren't even a threat to them.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I would never suggest that just anyone would have access to devices as powerful as the geneforge. After all, that would make the whole process less special, less craved by the masses. It should be a goal that is worked towards, not simply given up.

The geneforge would only be open to those worthy of its use. Who is the most worthy? Why, those with the power to take it, of course! I figure if just any old adventurer ( such as your character in the games) is powerful enough to simply reach a geneforge given their significant defenses, they have a right to use it. Or... destroy it if they should see fit. But that would be a foolish waste.

[Drakefyre]

I wish you had your karma visible because I would definitely rate you 5 stars right now.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I would never suggest that just anyone would have access to devices as powerful as the geneforge. After all, that would make the whole process less special, less craved by the masses. It should be a goal that is worked towards, not simply given up.
The geneforge would only be open to those worthy of its use. Who is the most worthy? Why, those with the power to take it, of course! I figure if just any old adventurer ( such as your character in the games) is powerful enough to simply reach a geneforge given their significant defenses, they have a right to use it. Or... destroy it if they should see fit. But that would be a foolish waste.

The only problem is, whether made out of noble intentions or not, using the Geneforge turns you into power hungry megalomaniac with a tendency to go into fits of rage and destroy anything moving in sight.

The power a Geneforge can offer may seem tempting, but no good will come of it no matter who uses it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
I wish you had your karma visible because I would definitely rate you 5 stars right now.

As an emperor, I know that allowing yourself to be evaluated by the public is a path to certain downfall. I am, however, much honored by your comment.

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
The only problem is, whether made out of noble intentions or not, using the Geneforge turns you into power hungry megalomaniac with a tendency to go into fits of rage and destroy anything moving in sight.

The power a Geneforge can offer may seem tempting, but no good will come of it no matter who uses it.

The geneforge has some bugs to be worked out, sure. But the only way to make progress is to make due with what you have. Perhaps one day the geneforge could be perfected, and then used to create a more enlightened kind of shaper. Until then, those not blessed by the geneforge will just have to learn not to anger those of us who are.

The alternative is to have the society and its technology stagnate, which seems to be the path the Shaper Council has chosen. This is a foolish path and will one day lead to them being overtaken by a force that is not afraid of progress. Oh, wait, that's what is happening right now! Rebellion! *shudders* An emperor's worst nightmare.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

You clearly aren't being serious about this.

[Micawber]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a genius among us.

 

Way to state the obvious.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Terribly sorry, but you misunderstand me. I am being quite serious. Scientific research and advancement always requires some kind of risks. Since you seem interested in real world examples, I shall name a few.

 

The Age of Enlightenment led to many ideas that were a great danger to society. New ideas that went against the dogma of the church were particularly threatening, such as the idea that the solar system was heliocentric. New ideas led to major wars and conflicts that exist even today. Never the less, these once 'dangerous' ideas are now vital for the way of life we all enjoy today. Would you prefer if doctor still bled you whenever you grow ill? Perhaps one day the shapers will regret throwing away the canisters and geneforge when they realize what a benefit they would have been. In the short run, yes, using the geneforge results in disaster. But what of the long run?

 

Sometimes, it depends on the circumstances. During World War 2, new advancements were made in all areas of science, most importantly the weapons. Atomic bomb tests happened on the United States’ own soil. As for the world of Geneforge: they are not so technically advanced, so they can not be expected to handle things as safely as the Americans, or even the Soviets, did.

 

Perhaps you do not approve of the use of a geneforge during a time of peace. But may I ask you this: would you approve of the use of one now that the world is entering a time of war? It does not matter which side you choose. The question is, would you use the geneforge to save the way of life you know from those that would destroy it?

[Micawber]

Now you're being serious, the Geneforge creates a great imbalance in the skills and abilities of the people who use it compared to everyone else. People will always seek to exploit that imbalance to give themselves greater power. Now maybe in the short term this could be the lesser of two evils, but in the long term you've still unleashed a monster, and there will be consequences. Not good ones.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Micawber:
the Geneforge creates a great imbalance in the skills and abilities of the people who use it compared to everyone else. People will always seek to exploit that imbalance to give themselves greater power.

Once again, what is the alternative? The world as we know it is based on the unequal distribution of power. If one person were to be supreme, it could be the end of war. If multiple people use the geneforge, hopefully, you would have a Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) situation, similar to the cold war. Each side would strive to perfect themselves until, hopefully, they become enlightened, and throw aside their arms. For shapers have the ability to alter the mind as well as the body, they’ve just yet to perfect the former.

As for alternatives: communism? No, communism doesn't work. Killing off anyone who has more power than anyone else? Ever read Harrison Bergeron? That‘s not pretty either.

The strongest must rule, thus it has ever been.

[Micawber]

I have a sentimental attachment to democracy, myself.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Micawber:
I have a sentimental attachment to democracy, myself.

Bwahahahaha! You would trust common people to govern themselves? Preposterous! However, I have seen arguments for democracy that have compelled me, and it does seem to work in the world we live in.

But these are realms of chitrach and vlish! The people need emperors and kings to keep them safe! Without us, they are a mindless rabble. I'm only doing what I believe is right.

[Enraged Slith]

Of course the people could vote for their emperors and kings... and these emperors and kings could be held accountable for their own actions... I believe it's called presidentialism?

 

And democracy does not automatically mean a liberal and federal government...

 

You could say the Spiderweb Software forums are run by a Unitary form of control.

[Drakefyre]

These forums are definitely a monarchy.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
These forums are definitely a monarchy.

I thought they were a theocracy since the high priests have the power of ban. That and the rooting out of all heresies like those of Avenforge.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Maybe you weren't paying attention to the game, but remember all those tiny little canisters you put your hand on that ended up slowly driving you nuts and feeling you up with a barely suppresed homicidal rage?

 

Well, those were only a small taste of the Geneforge. I hope you don't honestly believe there's any "upside" to using a Geneforge. All the Geneforge can do and all it ever will do is erase the user's humanity and leave them with insatiable hunger for more power that can never be satisfied. I fail to see the "benefit" or "scientific advancement" in turning one person into a "god" so they lord their power over everyone else with an iron fist. Power corrupts. Absolutely power corupts absolutely. That saying holds true enough for human tyrants when they don't have immortality and god-like abilities.

 

I say you can't possibly be serious because you selectively ignore the clues in the game that state that the Geneforge is inherently dangerous and there is no refining it. It either makes you crazy, or it kills you. Those are your options.

 

I also say you can't possibly be serious because you put WAAAAAAY too much effort into wording all of your posts "in character," unless you actually talk that way, which would be even more sad.

[the Great Potato]

Not all of that is true, but I am forbidden to say more. But I can say that using the Geneforge changes you in much the same way that canisters do.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
the Geneforge is inherently dangerous and there is no refining it.

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention to the game after all. I can't seem to remember them saying the geneforge could not be refined. In fact, I though that was the whole purpose of the Taker missions in Geneforge 2 and 3: refining the geneforge. Neither Eass nor Akhari-Blaze seemed as horribly insane as, say, Barzahl, who used canisters first and asked questions later. They actually seemed more rational than before they used it, allowing you to live among them in peace. I believe the geneforge can be refined, it merely takes patience. The reason your view has been distorted is because most shapers, myself included, take the Barzahl approach when faced with the option of using a geneforge, rather than an Eass approach.

Another possibility: maybe the canisters are not meant to be used. It could be that they are components of a geneforge never quite perfected. The original geneforge itself might never have even been completed. Perhaps the insanity that results from the use of these experimental technologies is simply a glitch that the Takers worked out and everyone else ignored.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Another possibility: maybe the canisters are not meant to be used. It could be that they are components of a geneforge never quite perfected. The original geneforge itself might never have even been completed. Perhaps the insanity that results from the use of these experimental technologies is simply a glitch that the Takers worked out and everyone else ignored.

The Geneforge was completed. You can use it in G1. You do, however, go completely insane with power. On the other hand, Trajkov can use it and he barely manages to keep his sanity. So some people can use it and some people can't--but you don't know who those people are until afterwards.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
The Geneforge was completed.

What makes you so sure? It was abandoned, probably before it was even tested. For all we know, your character and Trajkov end up using an unfinished product, a prototype. That could easily be the whole cause of this so called insanity!

My entire point is that we are not seeing the whole picture. It is most unfortunate that the only example we have of a geneforge used on a human is the mysterious failed experiment from Geneforge 1. I do not think this example is valid. The geneforge should not be looked at as a failure without more evidence. Canisters are incomplete, the first geneforge was almost certainly not the final goal, either. I want a new, perfected geneforge. Almost makes we want to become a Taker... almost.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves, without regard to the consequences or the effect on the lives on the outsiders caught in the crossfire. If You have to kill them and wipe out their villages just to get to the Shapers, what harm is a little collateral damage?

 

Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within. The geneforge may have been in a process of refinement in G3, but it was being refined for drakons. Whether or not it's possible to refine it for humans is unclear. However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment. It only takes ONE power crazed megalomaniac to cause catastrophic damage; how many would be an acceptable amount to produce for so vain and futile a goal?

 

The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up. And by that point, people would become aware and content with the true purpose of life and a Geneforge would be unnecessary to perfect the human form because they've already perfected the human mind which is much more important.

[Drakefyre]

There is a human Geneforge from GF1 and the drakon ones from GF2 and GF3. There's no reason to think that 200 or so years of technological improvements wouldn't provide a way for the human geneforge to be "perfected".

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
There's no reason to think that 200 or so years of technological improvements wouldn't provide a way for the human geneforge to be "perfected".

You’ve no idea how much this pleases me to hear.

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves

I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either.

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within.

I seem to remember the canister workshop being located in Rising. It matters not, as I have explained the unfortunate fact that yes, the canisters do not work and yes, people use them anyway. They should all be destroyed, in my opinion. They would not even be necessary had the geneforge been perfected in the first place.

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment.

With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing.

Quote:

Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:
The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up.

I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

Quote:

I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either.

So in other words trade a tyranny of Shapers for a tyranny of Drakons. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Quote:

With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing.

Without innovation we would be nothing. However, that innovation has always been mindful of the consquences and the impact on human life, or at least regretful if they are negative. The very men who developed atomic weaponary in WWII campaigned against its proliferation after the fact. Besides, none of our innovations have involved creating superhuman mutants driven insane by overwhelming power. You can't rush headlong into research on potentially dangerous technology without first stopping to think about the possible consequences.

Quote:

I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.

All evidence points to insanity being a much more likely consequence of Geneforge use. Shapers should definitely keep secrets, otherwise you'd have people running around nilly-willy abusing their knowledge to all sorts of nefarious ends. It's not like Shapers truly "keep secrets." You want to learn magic or how to shape? Apply to a Shaping school and get the proper training and discipline necessary to control that power and handle the responsibilities that come with it. You want to learn more general magic knowledge and research alchemy and potion making? Become a sage and study all the information you could ever want to know on the subject. There are already outlets to learn and study in Shaper society; you could argue that the application and improvisation with that knowledge is hampered by the dogma of Shaper society, but making a Geneforge is still a bad, bad, bad idea. It's trying to do something "good" for all of the very worst reasons.

Even IF someone had truly benevolent goals in mind and even IF they thought what they were doing was for the betterment of mankind, they'd be heading down a dark, dangerous path with all of the best intentions. And we all know what the road to Hell is paved with.

[the Great Potato]

Well, not everyone can be a shaper. That's why you need a Geneforge - to change people's genes so that they're able to learn to shape.

[AnarhIztok2511]

Well, you know, to make a closed curve back to the beginning of this thread, if everyone used the geneforge, then it also wouldn't be so dangerous, coz if one was evil and used it for evil purposes, some others might use it to prevent him - coz, providing everyone is at equal strenghths, for every disease there is a remedy or a prevention.

 

In the meantime:

 

Quote:

Chairface wrote:

Quote:

Originally written by Anarhiztok:

OH, yeah!

Keep the secrets and if someone finds them, even by accident, just burn them all; and their families, especially little children,and everyone who's connected in any a small way with them.

I must've missed the part of the game where they explain Agents kill entire families for one person learning magic in secret. More importantly, Agents are only dispatched when someone begins actively using unauthorized magic techniques. If you stumlbed on a Shaper book by accident and immediately handed it over to the Shapers the first chance you got, especially if you went out of your way to do it, I don't see anything in-game that shows they would actually execute your whole family just to make a point.

...

Well, as I remember they wanted to kill every servile, human and drayk who was at the Sucia island...

 

Quote:

Emperor wrote:

I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control.

HMMM, i don't think that is taker doctrine - takers just wantED just to destroy Shapers, what you said became true only when drakons took over in G3 (not to be confused with the drayk - taker symbiosys of G2).

[Emperor Tullegolar]

My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example. I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either. In fact, the very word Barzite seems to be an oxymoron, as anyone who follows his teachings would never settle for living under the name of another. I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked. I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite.

 

If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided. The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.

 

As for Taker doctrine, I am almost certain it was Seros from Geneforge 2 that said he would spare humanity as long as they submitted to the power of the drakons. It matters not, as all Takers are rogues and their ways should never be taken seriously.

[the Great Potato]

Drakons are worse than the Shapers, in that they want to subjugate everyone - humans, serviles, other creations, and even drayks.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided. The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.

This logic only stands a chance of working if both sides are sane, which people who have used the Geneforge are manifestly not.

[Randomizer]

Genforge 1 has a ending where you use the geneforge and leave it intact. This results in a massive war of the gods where those that used it start fighting each other instead of settleling down to a mutually assured destruction truce. Too many people can't control themselves when they are transformed.

 

Although getting back to my original question. Even the little things must be kept secret. Because of the big secret about the geneforge, the Sholai are kept in the dark in GF3 about what happened to their earlier expedition led by Trajkov. Explaining why they were completely wiped out would mean explaining about Sucia Island. This might start a war or convince the Sholai to start hunting for secret information on the geneforge. A simpler lie about finding a wrecked group of ships with no survivors might not be believed, but it would end the Sholai search.

 

Shaper society seems to go into ostrich mode about certain secrets. Hide everything and the problem will go away. This works if the hiders are trustworthy. Unfortuneately this didn't happen with the Geneforge.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

And the shapers need fear the Sholai why? They are a backwards people hardly worthy of a footnote. The shapers are not afraid of war with the Sholai, they merely wanted to avoid utter embarrassment. One of their secrets got out, and since they pride themselves on keeping secrets, they had to cover it up. What happens when the Sholai find this one out? The shapers will wish they told them in the first place.

 

You must look further back than Geneforge 3 to see what the real problem is. The problem is that the shapers tried to cover up the geneforge and canisters, leaving it all behind to be discovered by the outsiders in the first place. If only they had kept record of the geneforge, the whole problem could have been avoided, no Trajkov, no Barzahl, no Takers. The fact that the shapers kept it secret is the reason it all happened. I’ll bet now that the shapers are fighting for their very survival, they wish they had access to their own secrets, their own geneforge. Too bad they buried them where now they can not even find them. Stupid shapers.

 

By the way, no one answered a question I posed earlier. Would you approve of the use of a geneforge during a time of war? Or would you rather the war be drawn out through conventional means?

[Randomizer]

Unlike using an atomic bomb to force Japan's surrender at the end of World War II, using the geneforge isn't the same type of solution. Conventional means are going to have to do to crush the Rebellion in order to avoid starting a new war with geneforged enhanced shapers.

 

To see a real world analogy consider back in the 1980's Ronald Reagan sent George Bush to Iraq to help Saddam Hussien in his war with Iran. Bush revealed how the US spy satellite system worked in addition to giving him intelligence to help them "win" the war. A few years later in Gulf War I, Iraq used what it knew about the spy satellites to hide Scud missle launchers in the desert and move around without been detected. The end of Gulf War I left Saddam in power and gave him the power to crush any forces that tried to over throw him. The US "betrayl" of the opposition caused most of them not to support us now in Iraq. So much for technology solving problems.

 

For another example, when the Soviet Union invaded Afganistan, the US provided funds to Saudi Arabia to send people to fight the Soviets. Among those hired was Osama bin Laden and other who became Al-Qaida. Enbolded by their success they decided to get back at the other superpower, the US. Talk about a disgruntled government employee getting layed off and going postal.

 

Trying to created a weapon without adequate controls will only cause trouble later on when the flaws are revealed.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I fail to see how most of your examples relate to the topic at hand. Everything you said was true, but it had little to do with using a geneforge. I suppose you mean to say revealing secrets is dangerous because those that get them could become enemies. Yes, a good point. If only the shapers had not kept secrets in the first place they would never have fallen into the hands of the Takers. What? That makes no sense. Yes it does, because there would be no Takers, no abandoned serviles, no abandoned geneforge or canisters to discover. Too late now. Your point for keeping secrets in a time of war, however, is valid. And, since it is too late to prevent the war, then, yes, of course secrets should be kept from the enemies. That is a given.

 

I still think conventional means in this particular war are more brutal than the alternative. Millions of creations killing each other, cities annihilated and, I almost forgot, the diseases mentioned in the end of Geneforge 3. How can you not feel almost as if it is your duty to use the geneforge, just to end the suffering?

[Retlaw May]

I'm not one to advocate war, but war is what often leads to jumps of technology or change. Besides canisters and the Geneforge, Shapers seem to have remained, more or less, unchanged for the last few centuries (except for a few changed laws), this war (as Jeff seems to have hinted) is causing the Shapers to make some jumps that may never have been made otherwise and (if the Shapers win) will cause them to probably be even further advanced than they were before. Whether this is good or bad is yet to be seen.

[Hamilton G. Phantamos]

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example.

Okay, granted.

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I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either.

I actually agree to this.

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I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked.

Agreed, but there's no real point to make this information "public." Only Shapers with sufficient skill and the potential to repeat such experiments should be given clearance to this information. The average farmer or sailor could probably care less about dangerous incidents, other than possibly making them more superstitious and paranoid.

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I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite.

Okay, whatever floats your boat.

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If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided.

This is false for a variety of reasons. I am by no means a Cold War historian but it's generally well known that the threat of annihilation was seen as "imminent" for over 50 years, engendering a culture of paranoia, xenophobia, and blind nationalism on both sides. Also, we never fought a war directly with the USSR but we fought them by proxy with governments that were either tacitly or explicitly supported by Soviet funding simply for adopting a communist government: Viet Nam, Korea, Cuba, and many other US planned insurrections/coups throughout the Third World. If an actual coventional war had broke up between the superpowers it's debateable if they would have eventually been forced to reach a compromise, but it's only speculation in hindsight. Even the prospect of conventional war is highly unlikely due to an all out invasion being disadvantageous to either side due to their geographic separation. In fact, you could probably assert that without nuclear weapons to puff their chests out with, the US and USSR would have been forced to have a tense and hostile relationship, but ultimately one where there was no perceived threat of instant annihilation on either side, allowing a more relaxed, open minded society.

The fact that many US cover operations from that time period are now open information to be studied allows us to learn from the past and use the follies of a previous generation to gain a valuable moral lesson; however, while we can analyze and try to avoid such volatile stand offs between governments in the future, and the study of nuclear technology has useful applications despite the fact it can be used for evil much easier than for good doesn't mean the average individual should be allowed to have blueprints and instructions on how to create a Cold War era warhead. Actually, the only reason this is harmless and not an issue in the real world is because you need means of production to manufacture a warhead; any simpleton who can read and chant can start abusing magical abilities instantly in the world of Geneforge.

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The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.

Or they will go to war with each other, leaving devastation in their wake and leaving those without the power or any allegiance in the cross fire in their quest to annihilate or dominate their rivals. That seems much more likely.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I do not believe that annihilation was ever imminent during the Cold War. Let us take the incident that brought the world the closest it ever came to an actual nuclear holocaust: the Cuban Missile Crisis. At the end of that whole episode, Kennedy called the Soviet's bluff, and they proved to be just as cowardly when it came to using the bomb as you are when it comes to using the geneforge. It does not take a historian to see this. Even the Soviets, the most unpredictable regime in the modern era, failed to push the button. If they are not the best analogy we have to a canister user, then I am afraid I can not think of a better one.

 

As for the common farmers using the secrets available to them, this sounds only fair. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to try their hand at shaping. But you thought I disagreed with the beliefs of the Barzites? I do. Should someone misuse their shaping abilities or simply be terrible at using them, the government then has the duty to take those abilities away from the offender, slay them, if necessary. It would probably only take a few violent examples to make the message clear. Do not feel sorry for them, for they abused the gifts that were given to them.

 

If the government is unable to control a couple of hicks out in the woods shaping battle alphas, then that government has lost control, and must be overthrown. If said hicks are the ones that do the overthrowing, then so be it, for they have proven themselves worthy, and it is now their right to try their hand at ruling. Should they fail al well, it is now your duty to overthrow them and take the realm for yourself. Thus is the way of the Tullegolite.

[Retlaw May]

You are fogetting that unsupervised shaping of anykind can result in things like new diseases. I believe that it is the fear of this and not of rogues that truly scares the shapers about letting people learn how to shape.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Once again, if the government can not take control of the situation, then they must be overthrown. But what if there is no one alive capable of repairing a certain problem, such as a new disease? Well, that's an easy one. I hope that you know by now what how I would answer that question.

[Goldengirl]

Stick with me emperor, we'll go far.

 

Seriously though. I believe that anyone should be allowed to shape. However that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to learn. Also when it comes to experimenting Shaping that should be strictly controlled by the current government. Anyone believed to be experimenting without careful supervision by the government should be murdered. No questions asked.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldman N. King:
I believe that anyone should be allowed to shape. However that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to learn. Also when it comes to experimenting Shaping that should be strictly controlled by the current government. Anyone believed to be experimenting without careful supervision by the government should be murdered. No questions asked.

I never said they should be forced, merely given opportunities. Common farmers would be given the knowledge, but hardly any means, such as vital shaping equipment. If they are good enough, they will not need said equipment, and they will produce results regardless. This will earn the government's recognition, and this way even a commoner can prosper without becoming huge threat first. If a commoner does somehow become a huge threat without equipment, this commoner may very well be the next emperor.

As for experimentation, that should be a fundamental right as well. If the government was the sole authority on shaping experiments, it would lead to a government just as conservative as the Shaper Council, which is not the way of the Tullegolite. Why stifle creativity? Let the people experiment as best they can, so long as it is never presents a threat to society. Seeing as common people will have limited means available to them, such as no geneforge and limited essence, the threat should be minimal. If ever great trouble somehow arises anyway, the prodigy should first be given an opportunity to work for the government. Should they refuse, only then should the murders commence.

[Retlaw May]

So should everyone have access to nuclear technology? (I'm not just saying countries but say for kicks decided I wanted to buy some warheads). Or mabey I'll go to the liquor store and buy some anthrax or other bio-weapons.