Jump to content

A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4


Recommended Posts

I forget the exact details, but it was hashed out in a thread a long time ago.

 

The Guardian starts off with better melee skills, but the Agent quickly catches up. I forget the exact details, but it comes down that they both start spending the same amount of skill points to upgrade their skills past a certain point, and the Guardian's advantage doesn't hold out for very long.

 

The difference is, the Agent spends far fewer points maxing out both her magic and her melee skills, and still has plenty of points for other things. The Guardian on the other hand, spends an obcene amount of points to accomplish the same thing.

 

Does anybody remember the thread I am talking about? Somebody good at math actually laid out the costs involved and explaied it far better than I could.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 160
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Interesting, I see your point. Though I still stand beside the Guardian. But reading some of those posts reminded me that some areas did take a fair amount of time and effort with a guardian. Perhaps Agents are the ultimate weapon, but Guardians are surly the ultimate character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't understand why an Agent, that can block every enemy with a Strong Daze, must have more powr than a Guardian. The magic is good, I admit it, but the only magic that a Guardian need is the Healing Craft, IMO.

 

Take, for example, this situation: your character is surrounded by rogues. What would you do?

 

AGENT: Use a magic that "stun" (like Strong Daze), then, maybe with speed, take out all the enemies.

 

GUARDIAN: Occasionally use Heal, it will take out all enemies, one at turn.

 

CONCLUSION: Then I think: the Guardian is more strong aganist one, powerful enemy; the Agent can wipe out pack of enemyes easily.

 

So, I'm wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not the thread I was thinking of.

 

Somebody did a blow by blow accounting of skill points and costs to raise melee skills and total skill points spent. At something like level 10 or 11 melee skill or something like that, both the Agent and the Guardian start spending the same ammount of points to continue to increase the skill in question. In short, the Guardian's advantage for cheaper melee skills dries up to quickly to be truly effective. The Agent could "max out" to the effective cap on skills just as easily as a Guardian.

 

I can't remember the thread. confused

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fewer hitpoints wont matter to an Agent. Adding even a single point to endurance is a waste in the first place. You can't hurt what you can't hit.

 

Making magic weaker might slow the Agent down a bit, but the problem is, if you nerf magic as a whole, the other classes suffer far worse from it than the Agent ever will. Guardian and Shaper types depend on what bit of magic they have to get by.

 

I was thinking that Shaper types on both sides of the war might even shape creatures designed to deal with Agents. Magic immunes. But then I realised that Agents are just as deadly with a sword as they are with spells. Magic immune swarms might slow them down a bit. Shades and undead types can pose some trouble, but not much, nothing more than an irritation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that's necessarily so. I think the Agent's advantages are really just a few very effective tricks, which could be toned down without hurting anyone else.

 

For instance, give the attack spells a higher base damage and lower increment with spell strength, so that the maxed-out Agent has less advantage over the modestly magical Shaper. Possibly even put a ceiling on total damage, which won't bother anyone but Agents.

 

Give most major enemies infinite resistance to mental attacks, so that Dominate can still win over middle management layer, and in that way be a worthwhile tool in the box, but can't break the game by converting the big guys, no matter how much you pump your stats. Shapers and Guardians were never able to Dominate the big guys anyway, but Agents would lose a trick.

 

Put in more de-buffing traps, areas, and enemies, so that Agents can't run through entire zones Hasted from one spell. Guardians have to renew their buffs more regularly anyway, so it won't hurt them so much. Have some of these effects only affect small-s shapers, so that a Shaper's creation army is immune.

 

Another option is to create some otherwise mild enemies with effectively infinite Quick Action, so that the 'glass cannon' approach won't work with them. Or, to prevent the Agent's favorite 'creeping death' attack, some 'stealth' enemies that are untargetable until after they have attacked. Scatter these freely, but maybe include a Spore-Rod-like device that can reveal them, but is charged, so that Agents can survive but be humbled.

 

I'm betting that one of Jeff's extra classes is going to be a stealth specialist, and that might include anti-stealth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good points for the most part. The glass cannon approach and the infinite quick action deal would not be effective though. An Agent goes around in nothing but combat mode if you are smart, creeping forward a bit at a time. When you engage something in combat mode, so long as you have 5 AP left, it's your turn. So even something with 100 quick action wouldn't get the drop on a well played Agent.

 

I'd like to see an Infiltrator class. Stealth and mental magic out the wazoo. Daze, dominate, terror, stun, etc, as well as the standard unlock and such. But no battle magic available. Such a character would be a load of fun. The inability to wear armor. Physically fragile.

 

The counter to that would be a Servile Cultist type, with battle magic but little else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I'd like to see an Infiltrator class. Stealth and mental magic out the wazoo. Daze, dominate, terror, stun, etc, as well as the standard unlock and such. But no battle magic available. Such a character would be a load of fun. The inability to wear armor. Physically fragile.
This would be an especially awesome character if the stealth system was redone. The current system of running past guards very fast is rather counterintuitive, not to mention too easy.

Perhaps there could be an Exile-esque invisibility spell, and then rework the system so that if you see something, it sees you. You'd have to cast it, sneak into closets or something to hide out and cast again, then jump from hiding place to hiding place. That'd be cool.

Of course this is all irrelevant if Jeff has finished the engine already, which he probably has if he's done the first five areas. But we can hope. Have you finished the engine, Jeff?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How would getting the first shot help if daze, dominate, and other mental spells wouldn't work on high level things. confused

for example:

I walk up to a high level monster I shoot, then he blows me to kingdom come.

next example:

I walk up to a low level monster I shoot, then he's dead.

the last example:

I walk up to medium level monster I shoot, then we have a long drawn out battle in which I win, but, it was a very close battle and I only won because I shot first.

But, I could do the same with a shaper or a guardian.

for example2:

I walk up to a high level monster he shoots,

and I'm blown to kingdom come.

next example2:

I walk up to a low level monster he shoots, and misses then I do and he's dead.

the last example:

I walk up to medium level monster he shoots, then we have a long drawn out battle in which he wins, but, it was a very close battle and he only won because he shot first.

But, the same would happen with a shaper or a guardian.

Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Staying in combat mode and relying on the fact that it's your turn is what I meant by "creeping death". The stealth attackers that aren't targetable until after they've shot you is a solution to this. If they don't actually do much damage, they're no big problem for Guardians or for Shapers using beefy creations as scouts. But they would be a pain for glass cannon Agents.

 

Just having fast-moving, super-high-QA enemies with ranged attack would have a similar effect if they were aggressively hunting you, because they could hit you on their turn by closing from beyond visible range -- in other words, using "creeping death" on you for a change. And the high QA should let them defeat the "infinite moves" tactic of double-tapping "f" whenever your AP gets down to 1.

 

I guess the moral of my story is that I think hummingbirds with peashooters could humble glass cannon Agents without having much effect on the other classes. And forcing the Agent to put even just a few more points into Endurance and Parry could render her mortal, because knocking a few points of Spellcraft and Battle Magic away from a godlike Agent can often make the difference between taking out all the enemies and letting one get through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most advanced piece of equipment in the Agent's arsenal is perhaps her running shoes.

 

If you blast something and for whatever reason it just doesn't work, and it could potentially eat you as a snack, you run. Run like mad. Let it chase you. And you snipe it from a distance, ducking around a corner, blasting away, and then running away. Run and close a door.

 

The key to playing an Agent is to never present your self as a target. So even if one high powered enemy survived the initial assault, it would never survive the battle of attritition.

 

You don't just stand there like a dummy and let a powerful enemy take pot shots at you. You keep moving and pop off a shot when the chance presents it self.

 

Yet another reason why Agents, and to a lesser degree, missile guardians in G3 are so powerful. Exceptional applied damage at a range. You don't go toe to toe with something that is going to beat you up and steal your lunch money.

 

As for the invisibility spell, I have one better. Since we know that Agents can cloud the minds of their enemies, spells like daze short out the brain, how about blindness? Overload the optic nerves. The enemy would know you were there once they were blinded, but they could not see you, allowing you to scamper past. Although getting to close to an enemy would still probably allow them to take a swipe at you with a sword.

 

Or since there are weather effects, how about atmosphere effects? Smoke bombs. Poof!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since I'm here right now I'll answer Major:

 

The thing with a properly built Agent is that all the examples are the same, because it's always her turn.

 

She's on permanent Speed and she has huge Quick Action. So she steps just into range of an unsuspecting enemy of almost any size, and hits it for enormous damage with, say, Searer. It's still her turn because she had at least 12 AP, so she has at least 5 left now. If she's feeling brave or confident she could attack again and go for a quick kill, but if she's cautious she retreats a few steps to get out of sight of her enemy, then her player taps "f" twice very quickly. Before her victim has had time to move, she's got a fresh 12 AP.

 

Loop until done. She can repeat this process as many times as it takes to kill the thing, because every turn she lands one attack on it, and it never gets any turns.

 

The only way this doesn't work is if (a) she picks a fight with something that has higher Quick Action than she does, or (B) the battle takes place in a small space with no corners and no doors.

Case (a) is rare if you're conscientious in pumping QA. It happened to me once, fighting Akhari Blaze. That was a tough fight, but by then my Agent had 18 AP, so she could hit him each round and still run far enough away that he couldn't get to her to hit back.

 

Case (B) is rare because the game maps just aren't built that way. But I guess they could be: some doors close on you and take at least a turn to re-open, and some doors never re-close. So you could open a non-reclosing door at the end of a narrow hallway to reveal a closet in which lurks a hasted Rotdhizon; and meanwhile the door at the other end of the hallway has closed. Now you're in trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, that is a situation in which a Guardian would shine. Normally when playing a guardian I just stand there and there and talk on the whole lot at once. On higher difficulty settings I don't stand in one place very long. If that doesn't work zipping in and out with speed always helps. Then there's always the lure monsters into "death trap" back-alley-tactic. I still say a tower of HPs combined with powerful healing spells makes the Guardian more powerful. Maybe you could take out a whole room with daze and some powerful magic but eventually magic will run dry, if enough monsters are present." You can't hurt what you can't hit". But how realistic is never being hit. Eventually some powerful monster is going to get a good blow in and sap away most of the Agent's HPs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Since I'm here right now I'll answer Major:

The thing with a properly built Agent is that all the examples are the same, because it's always her turn.

She's on permanent Speed and she has huge Quick Action. So she steps just into range of an unsuspecting enemy of almost any size, and hits it for enormous damage with, say, Searer. It's still her turn because she had at least 12 AP, so she has at least 5 left now. If she's feeling brave or confident she could attack again and go for a quick kill, but if she's cautious she retreats a few steps to get out of sight of her enemy, then her player taps "f" twice very quickly. Before her victim has had time to move, she's got a fresh 12 AP.
...
The bolded part here is an exploit of combat system, so if that's the main reason you are arguing for agent to be nerfed, just don't abuse this exploit. Fight-end button wasn't intended to give you infinite APs. It was intended to ... leave combat when fight is over. Since this isn't a competitive game, Jeff doesn't have to change the whole game to get rid of an exploit. Just don't use it if it makes the game too easy.

Since I haven't played Agent in Gf3, I can't comment on how she compares to other classes, but it sounds like most of your invinsible-agent strategies could be defeated by nerfing Daze (my Shapers and Guardians did fine in previous Geneforges with no mental magic at all), and stopping yourself from abusing fight-end trick. (Or Jeff not letting the player end fight while an enemy is chasing him.)

PS In general, I'd prefer it if Jeff added even higher difficulty level beyond Torment, instead of changing the game balance to make normal level challenging for the best players.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I have never used the fight end trick. It's worthless for my play style.

 

The Agent is powerful enough to deal with anything with out having to resort to hitting F. The worst I do is leave a zone in combat mode if I have to.

 

Nerfing Daze would hurt other classes far more than it would hurt the Agent. With out Daze, fragile Shapers run the risk of something beelining past their wall of creations and taking them out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
...
Nerfing Daze would hurt other classes far more than it would hurt the Agent. With out Daze, fragile Shapers run the risk of something beelining past their wall of creations and taking them out.
I guess this is just a question of playing style. Just like you argue that a correctly played agent would never get hit, I'd argue that a correctly played Shaper would never get close enough to battlefield for anything to get in range to attack him.

I did fine as both Guardian and Shaper in Gf2 with no mental and battle magic at all. I also got through half of Gf3 with a similar shaper (lost interest in the game after finishing Dhonal Island). You might be right that an Agent is generally overpowered, but I am wondering whether less experienced Agent players feel the same way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:
Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
...
Nerfing Daze would hurt other classes far more than it would hurt the Agent. With out Daze, fragile Shapers run the risk of something beelining past their wall of creations and taking them out.
I guess this is just a question of playing style. Just like you argue that a correctly played agent would never get hit, I'd argue that a correctly played Shaper would never get close enough to battlefield for anything to get in range to attack him.

I did fine as both Guardian and Shaper in Gf2 with no mental and battle magic at all. I also got through half of Gf3 with a similar shaper (lost interest in the game after finishing Dhonal Island). You might be right that an Agent is generally overpowered, but I am wondering whether less experienced Agent players feel the same way.
True that.

There are people who place points in endurance and shaping and suboptimal skills and then complain that the Agent is to weak or otherwise "sucks" somehow. Or a person has a complete and total lack of a concept called tactics. And no offense to anybody here, but hitting F to reset your turn is not tactics. That's exploitation.

I do agree that a Shaper should never get hit. It happens. You get ambushed,stuff happens, you wind up in fights in confined spaces, or you might have to run forward through a battle to turn off machinery like pylons. Daze is good insurance for those moments. There are also moments where battle takes places after conversation and the enemy is right up close to you. Daze allows you to gracefully exit said situation.

Thinking about it, the only way to "nerf" the Agent would be to make the other classes considerably more powerful. Allow the Guardian (type) class to hit multiple enemies in a single attack. Perhaps cranking melee skill would increase the chance of getting a hit on those standing in the immediate area around you. At higher levels of training, a good swipe with a sword would hit 5 or 6 foes around you, and then allow for quick action to allow for second hits or double damage or something, Also, allow the missile skill to allow for a chance to pierce with batons or thrown weapons. Also, batons are a lock and load type weapon. Heck, allow them to have 2 or 3 shots a round and give the Guardian even footing with the Agent in terms of damage output. A well made missile Guardian with piercing missiles could hold his own in terms of damage. And allow quick action to allow you to squeeze off an extra shot once and while.

If these types of changes were made to the Guardian, it would be worth it to ignore magic completely and just crank your melee skills out of the wazoo the same way an Agent does with magic skills.

Also, give the Guardian his own version of the Agent's spell craft. Some kind of skill that makes all of his attacks better and more damaging. He doesn't have that now, and the Agent does. A skill like... Anatomy. Or deadly blow. Critical hit. Something. The Guardian has no generic skill booster. The Shaper and the Agent both do with spellcraft.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, maybe I'm just too good at rationalizing, but I never really thought of it that way. I figured a really fast gunslinger could do this kind of thing, popping around a corner at you time after time, and always being too fast for you to get a bead on. Maybe I've also been reading too much Dark Tower.

 

But it's not so easy to just refrain from f-ing the monsters up, because retreating briefly only to ambush them again has to be a legitimate tactic. The only shady bit is how fast you do it. Do you insist on retreating at least three paces beyond the edge of sight, or give the monsters a slow three count before re-attacking? Or is it any less of an exploit to stay in combat mode but retreat farther after each shot, waiting for the monsters to run into my guns, knowing that they'll keep on doing that time after time until they die?

 

Even if we always stay in combat mode until every hostile is dead, the problem remains that a fast Agent can almost always engage and disengage at will, and thus achieve the same effect of infinite attacks without retaliation, albeit at a greater cost in time and distance. Refraining from exploiting that ability would be too much like restoring game balance by just standing still for every fifth Reaper Turret, since it's not really an isolated trick, but just an application of the basic combat element of moving. Giving it up would be too arbitrary.

 

High speed and strong ranged attacks make the Agent too easy to play, and I think this should be countered, rather than just eliminated, by adding some fast ranged monsters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I'd like to see an Infiltrator class. Stealth and mental magic out the wazoo. Daze, dominate, terror, stun, etc, as well as the standard unlock and such. But no battle magic available.
This will never happen.

Why do I say that? Jeff has always insisted on making every spell or ability potentially accessible to every character. When he implemented classes in G1 -- a first for him -- he still made sure that every class could use every skill.

(Exception: there were a handful of spells that the Romans couldn't use in Nethergate. However, playing as Romans or as Celts were basically two entirely different scenarios, so I'm not sure I would count this.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm still playing GF1 as an agent and still can see how it can trash almost anything. It's only weakness is that it can rarely survive an attack from more powerful monsters that a guardian will still be able to heal from and then attack. Swarms of monsters can be dazed or destroyed with searing orbs, spray crystals, swarm crystals and other area attacks. Running in haste helps keep out of monster's attack range until you can fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by $ v. #:
Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I'd like to see an Infiltrator class. Stealth and mental magic out the wazoo. Daze, dominate, terror, stun, etc, as well as the standard unlock and such. But no battle magic available.
This will never happen.

Why do I say that? Jeff has always insisted on making every spell or ability potentially accessible to every character. When he implemented classes in G1 -- a first for him -- he still made sure that every class could use every skill.
Serviles can't shape. Period. If there was a canister or something that allowed serviles to shape, I would be very angry.

Ok, after reading through pages and pages of agent-theory, I've decided I don't know how to play Geneforge. I love playing as a shaper, and I love playing as a solo-guardian, but i can not play as an agent. The only spells I ever use (or bother learning) while playing are heal spells. I mean, maybe I just don't like magic in general or something, but I can't make it through a full game as an agent without cheating, its just too damn hard. I die way too much for comfort.

I don't expect it to be easy or anything, but most of you are saying that being an agent is waaay easier than the other classes. And I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm just going to believe that I'm incapable of playing this game series properly, and I guess that works out to my advantage (without the need for nerfing), hooray!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agents do die if you just walk up to things, then try to stand and fight. You have to use all your AP, and you have to distribute your skill points right. So on lower difficulty settings, Agents are quite a bit harder to play, and Guardians are pretty easy. But on higher difficulty settings, all three classes have to use some cunning. With Agents, cunning is rewarded more heavily, so for them the game becomes too easy on the Torment setting. Guardians are quite tricky on Torment, because they end up doing more toe-to-toe slugging it out than the other classes do. On Normal or Easy, this just means that Guardians mop the floor with things, but on Torment it often means that they are the mops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
There are people who place points in endurance and shaping and suboptimal skills and then complain that the Agent is to weak or otherwise "sucks" somehow.
It seems you only need to remove a few points of spell power for the agent to go from god to ok. Magic skills above 10 counting for half might do it, like for some stats in avernum. Or for less than half if it's already like this.

I dont think shapers often get a mental magic or spellcraft over 10, even includuing equipment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Augmentation, Steel Skin, various magical armors, etc, you get near physical immunity and become highly magic resistant, and can clear with 300 to 400 hit points with the right gear.

 

Why are you dying or why are you needing endurance? Are you running around with out buffing your self out with magical steroids?

 

Heck, at that point in the game my Agents tend to walk through minefields with out bothering to turn them off. They tickle!

 

Getting to that point though can be a bit tricky. People panic and think they must add to endurance to survive starting out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, that's another thing. The Basic Buff Package of Essence Armor, Steelskin and Augmentation does seem to do far more for Agents than for Shapers or Guardians. Essence Armor and Steelskin should perhaps be toned down a bit, at least, and Augmentation should do better at giving you some extra fraction of your natural health, rather than just tacking a whole lot extra on top. Shapers and Guardians really wouldn't miss this, but it would grind down Agents some more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought I remembered the HP buffs (possibly just one of them) having an effect proportional to the amount of HP you have. Thus, guardians would benefit from it significantly more than agents. However, it may have been proportional to level or endurance but not actual HP value, in which case there is no real guardian bonus.

 

I may be misremembering, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Serviles can't shape. Period. If there was a canister or something that allowed serviles to shape, I would be very angry."

 

How about if the rebels found a way to remove the block the Shapers made and enable serviles to shape, but they're really bad at it. Would you then be just somewhat irked?

 

As time has progressed, creations have attained the ability to edit themselves (starting with drakons) to build on/undo what the Shapers started with. This is both part of the solution and part of the problem.

 

- Jeff Vogel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
How about if the rebels found a way to remove the block the Shapers made and enable serviles to shape, but they're really bad at it. Would you then be just somewhat irked?
This would feel a bit unnatural, but feasible nonetheless.

Would they use a modified geneforge to make said alterations? And if so, are serviles close enough to humans that we might be able to use the geneforge as well?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Actually, that's another thing. The Basic Buff Package of Essence Armor, Steelskin and Augmentation does seem to do far more for Agents than for Shapers or Guardians. Essence Armor and Steelskin should perhaps be toned down a bit, at least, and Augmentation should do better at giving you some extra fraction of your natural health, rather than just tacking a whole lot extra on top. Shapers and Guardians really wouldn't miss this, but it would grind down Agents some more.
You know, I find it odd that if I have the exact same level of Augmentation on both an Agent and a Guardian (Say, two points) the Agent seems to get more out of it. Other buffs as well. Is spellcraft effecting things like Steelskin and Essence Armor? I mean, I cast those and not only is there more noticeable effect, but they last longer too.

And so I don't double post...

All I want in G4 is the ability to use the Geneforge again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanna be able to have creations do different attacks. I love Fyoras, but all they have is firebolt. At least have the ability to teach them one or two extra attacks. Oh, and a magic creation that heals other creations, that would be amazing.

 

And please dont add things from Avernum. I play Geneforge, cuz I like the game play, and I no likey Avernum, because of the game play...

 

Anyway, I'm a huge fan, love the Geneforge Series. C ya'll laters

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
"Serviles can't shape. Period. If there was a canister or something that allowed serviles to shape, I would be very angry."

How about if the rebels found a way to remove the block the Shapers made and enable serviles to shape, but they're really bad at it. Would you then be just somewhat irked?

As time has progressed, creations have attained the ability to edit themselves (starting with drakons) to build on/undo what the Shapers started with. This is both part of the solution and part of the problem.

- Jeff Vogel
Does this mean we'll be having Servile shapers in GF4?

- Archmagus Micael
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
As time has progressed, creations have attained the ability to edit themselves (starting with drakons) to build on/undo what the Shapers started with. This is both part of the solution and part of the problem.
That makes sense.

It suddenly occurs to me that if only you threw in a lot of words like "agathism" and "postmodernism" into Geneforge alongside all of that philosophizing about the nature of existence, the games would read a lot like a Terror's Martyr scenario. wink

*stifled laughter*

Edit: Vlish, this is Geneforge, there is no time-based expiration on the HP buffs. Also, I think that at least one of them gives a set HP bonus (though I may be thinking of A4 here myself) which would, of course, seem like a much bigger bonus to an agent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Serviles shaping themselves: oh sheet. It was scarey when the Drakons were doing it, but now I'm used to that. And I've suspected for some time that the upper class Shapers have been doing it secretly for ages. But even those harmless, downtrodden Serviles? Say it ain't so!

 

Except that once he says it I realize it must be. And it is also inevitable the serviles will shape themselves badly, but with extreme determination and (perhaps?) some rare inspiration. A very cool idea, especially because it may offer some interesting ethical paradoxes.

 

If we're making requests in the hope that Jeff will read them, I also think it's time to use the Geneforge again.

 

But what I really want is some explanation, however sketchy, of why some creations get cooked up in vats but others materialize out of thin air (like mine). It has been bugging me for three games, now, that I keep walking through all these fine, spooky shaper labs full of vats and summoning platforms and spawners, and yet I don't seem to need any such paraphernalia to make my own creations. So why all the labs and equipment?

 

I've been imagining my own explanations, but I'd like to have an official one. Especially if it ended up playing some role in a plot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
... Allow the Guardian (type) class to hit multiple enemies in a single attack. Perhaps cranking melee skill would increase the chance of getting a hit on those standing in the immediate area around you. At higher levels of training, a good swipe with a sword would hit 5 or 6 foes around you, and then allow for quick action to allow for second hits or double damage or something, Also, allow the missile skill to allow for a chance to pierce with batons or thrown weapons. Also, batons are a lock and load type weapon. Heck, allow them to have 2 or 3 shots a round and give the Guardian even footing with the Agent in terms of damage output. A well made missile Guardian with piercing missiles could hold his own in terms of damage. And allow quick action to allow you to squeeze off an extra shot once and while.
...
This sounds like multiple attack modes from some other games and I agree that it would be good to see these in Gf5. (I suspect Gf4 is too far along in development to accomodate such changes.) What I mean by multiple attack modes is that your characters and creations would have an option to use a weaker attack that damages all nearby enemies. Ranged attacks would also have a weaker multi-target mode. Or a faster, but weaker attack. There are many possibilities here.

PS As for Serviles shaping themselves, I am not surprized that that's the direction in which the series is going. Considering the current state of Geneforge world, Geneforge-using ending of Gf1 no longer looks that bad. (Or at least it looks no worse than current state of the world.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...