A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4

[Student of Trinity]

Spray and Swarm Crystals, and Madness Gems, are in effect options to attack many enemies more weakly.

 

BTW, I've been replaying G1, and I just used the Geneforge. I've saved the Inner Crypt for last, so that have something to do with all this power besides burn the whole island down and take over the world.

[Delicious Vlish]

More regeants to make stuff like crystals, wands, etc. There is just not enough. You burn through stuff to fast.

[Major]

I'll assume your talking about guardians. You could put enough ingreidiants to make wands more useful.

But, personaly I use a melee-diplomat-mechanechs guardian and I never had much trouble dying. Yes I do die, some.

On a side note however, Delicious Vlish must enjoy his new size of post count.

The other side note is that I have great hopes for the new addition to the geneforge series.

[The1Kobra]

Personally, I would like the 4/6 type creation limit removed. Especially if 3 new creations are being added, being able to only take 4 types might hurt. Besides, I like to have a combined arms force.

[Major]

I agree with you. that gets annoying quick, I understand having only 7 creations. But if Jeff would make it so were you could have 7 different creations that would be awsome. Just think you could have your starting fyora and a cryoa.... well.... you get the point. (I hope)

[VCH]

You now I think I will make an attempt to actually use creations in G4. I have yet to create anything all through G1-G3 except to see what they look like. I assume I'm missing out on some of the game's actual fun.

[The Ripper]

Whoa, Jeff actually reads what a low-life like me posts about his games? That makes me less angry.

 

Anyway, back to the topic of serviles shaping. I still don't like it at all. But then, to me there's no way to play a satisfying game as a servile. It would just be a novelty.

 

Call me an arrogant shaper, but I truly believe that all of the problems of the magic/shaping getting out of control is really only perpetuated by mad shapers/humans. In geneforge 2 for example, which I consider to be the perfect game. Can't be improved upon. In G2, the only reason the Awakened weren't dead by the time you got to Medab is because of Tuldaric. All the cunning of Pinner, and other serviles could not make up for the sheer power of one crazy mage. Or Spharon's Lands in G3, those serviles were probable the strongest serviles we've run into so far, but that's only because they were all controlled by a human master.

 

^ And I think that's the main point I'm driving here, is that although it would be really cool story-wise to play from the perspective of a servile, it shouldn't have the same gameplay. Otherwise its just too much of a leap from the previous Geneforge's (like in the examples above). I mean, as stated on the previous page, its just not your style, so its a leap I'll have to adjust to, but I think we'd be better off with a Roman/Celt situation when it comes to Human/Creations.

[Delicious Vlish]

I'd like to see the Geneforge finale play out like Nethergate. Shapers on one side, Rebels on the other, and you could play as either side and get a different ending.

 

Playing as a servile I don't think will work very well in my own opinion. I mean, enemy shapers will just use their leadership skills on you to talk you out of whatever. That convincing aura of authority. I mean, we can play as shapers now and use it on the various serviles we meet... What would stop the shapers from using it on a servile player character? And what about shapers with Dicipline Wands? I mean, ever seen how much damage one of those wands does to a servile? Playing as a servile character, all of those elements would have to be convienantly forgotten because there just wouldn't be a good way to work it in the to the game. Servile player character picks up a dagger and some chiton armor in the starting area, and the first shaper you meet verbally dominates you with leadership, and go grab your rake and go back to the garden.

[Randomizer]

Playing a servile versus a human would mean a whole new set of dialog options. Some serviles are able to resist shaper commands. Whether this would be given for PC serviles or you would have to raise abilities to be able to resist is up to Jeff. As a servile you are at the bottom, just ahead of the ornk (?).

[Slawbug]

DV, that's simply not the way the shaper forcefulness ("leadership") has worked in previous Geneforges. Yes, it works wonders on meek, obeissant serviles. But it works nearly as well on meek, obeissant non-shaper humans. I don't remember it being very effective on even the random serviles in Kazg. And servile leaders among the Awakened and the Takers in 1 and 2 aren't one whit more vulnerable to it than shapers are. Neither can be at all commanded, both get mildly better but usually inconsequential new dialog options with high leadership skill.

[Grain of Salt]

And plus, the ingrained obedience is genetic. If rebels can make themselves able to destroy Shapers by pointing, they'll probably find a way to get rid of the obedience.

[Delicious Vlish]

I don't think so.

 

The aura of authority also works on the normal human beings around you, making them meek and more apt to deal with you. So it's more than just a genetic urge for serviles.

 

As for it not working so well on leader types, you wont be a leader type. At least, I seriously doubt it.

[Slawbug]

Yeah, but their resistance doesn't come from the fact that they are leaders. (Perhaps it is not an accident that serviles with resistance to shaper charm tend to be smart and strong and are likely leaders, but that's a different question.)

 

As for being bizarrely smart and strong and being able to learn things and increase in skill at a truly incomprehensible rate -- well, that seems to be a given, regardless of race.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

I think that the Guardian should be like in G2 except with more mental resistance. The base damage of weapons needs to go up. The Puresteel Soulblade went from 15-120, +1 QA, +2 PA to 15-60, +1 QA, +2 PA. Thats a BIG drop and since the same happened to other weapons the Guardian was hit hard. This way with super parry, weapons with higher base damage and more mental resistance the Guardian will be as powerful as the Agent.

 

That being said I still think the Guardian is as powerful as the Agent it's just that you need a certain playing style. My Guardian on Gull Island could kill my Agent on Isle of Spears.

 

This is my Guardian

 

Dakro

Level: 33 Health 81 Essence 108 Spell Energy 74

 

Armor 110

Fire 70

Cold 70

Energy 70

Stun 103

Mental 40

Poison 82

Acid 32

 

Str 10

Dex 4

Int 4

End 14

 

MeW 10

MiW 7

QA 12

PA10

 

BM 0

MM 0

BlM3

SC 3

 

FS 1

BS 1

MS 1

HC 5

 

Lead. 11

Mech 14

Luck 9

 

With Stats approx. like this and the right tactics the Guardian can wipe the floor against EVERYTHING. Yes I do play Torment.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Dakro? So uninventive... But really, now that you're playing as a Human/Servile maybe Leadership really will represent leadership...

Also, on the same subject I think in the GF games where you play as a Shaper, "Leadership" should be replaced with "Authority" or some such thing, because that better represents Shapers.

[Zeviz]

About Leadership, I see it more as a "diplomacy" skill in some games: the ability to convince people, rather than some sort of hypnotic power.

 

As for Serviles' genetic need to obey, on one hand if they are reprogramming themselves they can get rid of that need too. On the other hand, if they change themselves so much, are they still "Serviles"? Just like Dryaks changed themselves into Drakons, Serviles who change themselves in such fundamental ways should probably be considered a new species.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Spray and Swarm Crystals, and Madness Gems, are in effect options to attack many enemies more weakly.

...

Ok. My suggestion of multiple attack modes wasn't very serious anyway. Making a well-balanced game is one of Jeff's strongest points, so I am not too worried about that.

[Student of Trinity]

I didn't really mean to shoot down the suggestion. The major weakness of Guardians is that they can get mobbed easily. Speed and a few crystals can usually save your bacon, if you were prepared enough to already have Speed on. But if combats against groups become more the norm, Guardians will need to have some consistent option. Maybe it will be enough for Guardians to keep a small number of creations -- mine never seem to manage this, but perhaps they'll just have to learn for G4. But since it would be silly to have Swarm Crystals scattered under every bush, perhaps some option other than crystals will need to be devised.

[Geneforge_Fan]

about geneforge 4, do you find out what is behind the the sealed stone door from geneforge 2? or do you find that out in geneforge 3. I dont have the full version of geneforge 3 so i can't find out for myself.

[Steel Angel]

Interesting information and discussion to say the least.

 

As someone that originally tried to play Guardians but wound up playing Agents, I feel I should chime in on that bit of discussion.

 

As others said, Guardians seem to have big problems when they get swarmed since melee combat is so damn deadly. I did go through a fair amount of the game as Guardian in GF3 (before getting distracted from that game for a long time and not remembering what I had done) and found it far more survivable than my memories of GF1, but all it would take is one bad step into a group of baddies before I started having critter hack off 1/3 of my health at a time while being too stunned to attack and heal.

 

In contrast, an Agent has powerful crowd control spells at her disposal that can be used to prevent multiple attacks on the character, not to mention making sure an enemy with a strong ranged attack doesn't get to use it before closing to melee range. Both Guardians and Agents lack the ability to walk around with a huge army like a Shaper so crowd control makes a huge difference when enemies in melee combat hurt so much. And because monster melee attacks are so lethal, as others have said, simply removing that CC ability from agents would make other classes frustratingly annoying to play.

 

I suspect the way I've played my agents is different from what others have done, but still proves extremely powerful just because of the crowd control. I didn't switch over to Agents for their better magic skills so much as them not being total wusses in combat. I basically just buff myself, find monsters, use mental spells to CC them, then pick one and start stabbing it. It doesn't use all of an Agent's abilities by a long shot, but the crowd control is just that powerful and often needed for non-Shapers.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Quote:

Originally written by Geneforge_Fan:
About Geneforge 4, do you find out what is behind the sealed stone door from Geneforge 2? Or do you find that out in Geneforge 3? I don't have the full version of Geneforge 3, so I can't find out for myself.

Tidied up a bit...

Yes, you find out in Geneforge 3. Unfortunately, it's a plain old Drakon. His name is Lord Ghaldring. He's mentioned numerous times in Geneforge 3.

[Nick Ringer]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
But what I really want is some explanation, however sketchy, of why some creations get cooked up in vats but others materialize out of thin air (like mine). It has been bugging me for three games, now, that I keep walking through all these fine, spooky shaper labs full of vats and summoning platforms and spawners, and yet I don't seem to need any such paraphernalia to make my own creations. So why all the labs and equipment?

I've been imagining my own explanations, but I'd like to have an official one. Especially if it ended up playing some role in a plot.

I think Golems and other hybrid creations need materials, combined with essence. The vats of glaahk parts and stuff are for studying. The Shaping labs are basically essence sources. And the first Geneforge, I think in the second area, mentions that the round stone platforms are only there to make shaping more convenient.

What I don't understand is how Shapers can keep essence in their bodies. For a long time I thought essence was just a form of magic/energy. Then in GF3 we're told that it's a mixture of chemicals, magically charged good, and partially living flesh. Maybe the word "essence" refers to the fluid as well as the energy?

[Lilith]

Shapers have essence glands, of course.

[Ash Lael]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Shapers have essence glands, of course.

When I read this, I could not help thinking of Dr Strangelove.

[The Ripper]

Quote:

Originally written by Ash Lael:

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Shapers have essence glands, of course.

When I read this, I could not help thinking of Dr Strangelove.

Purity of essense!!!

Equality for creations? That's communist talk!

^ teh offtopic.

[Steel Angel]

I'm pretty sure one of the games mentioned that shapers have some of the liquid essence injected into them, or otherwise introduced into their system. I also figure that when you level up and/or boost your intelligence that you learn how to get more out of that essence as opposed to finding more to inject yourself with. Doesn't explain how non-shapers are casting some of those spells that you have to burn essence for of course but outsider magic is one of those things that hasn't really been elaborated on (/end thinly veiled suggestion for a facet of the game world to explore in future games).

[Slawbug]

The games have definitely never said essence was injected into shapers. Isn't the basic idea that all living things have essence in them, and that shapers learn to harness their own essence in a specialized way, presumably growing better at it as they gain in skill?

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Djuran Orb v. Arancaytog:
The games have definitely never said essence was injected into shapers. Isn't the basic idea that all living things have essence in them, and that shapers learn to harness their own essence in a specialized way, presumably growing better at it as they gain in skill?

I always imagined Essence as some kind of inner power which everything has, sort of liek the mitochlorians (or however they're spelt) in Star Wars. Every living thing has it, but only a few individuals (namely the Jedi) are lucky enough to be born with it in abundance.

I'm tempted to email JV and ask, but I don't really want my idea to be smashed by him.

Perhaps this is what happens with the Shapers? After all, not everyone is cut out to be a Shaper.

- Archmagus Micael

[Delicious Vlish]

Canisters are charged essence that is injected, or absorbed, in to the body.

 

Every being has some, but canister crazed shapers glow in the dark and become more essence than human tissue.

 

Using the Geneforge also involved large unhealthy amounts of essence going in to the body. The gloves slowed it down so the body might have a chance to absorb it.

[Slawbug]

But canisters don't actually give you access to more essence. They basically rewrite part of your biology. Ditto with the geneforge. They use essence to achieve these effects, but the effects are not the same thing as the essence; the effects are not a direct use of that essence, they are the something that can be done as a result of what the essence does.

 

Regardless, shaping ability obviously doesn't depend on canister or geneforge use.

[Archmage Alex]

On playing as a servile:

 

I think it would fun if you could be one of those serviles that gains magic by focusing until you drive yourself insane.

 

On balance of the classes:

 

I, personally, think they're balanced just fine. As some one said, it's a matter of how skilled and/or knowledgeable a player you are. Agents just seem to be the class most people are finding the secrets and strategies on the easiest.

 

For example, as a Shaper in GF2, put a little in leadership, a little in magic shaping and from this point on ALL SP into Intelligence, enter combat mode, run through the areas challenging no one, join the awakened, train in Vlish, if you know where to look grab a Vlish canister, make a vlish, go back to easy areas and nothing will be able to stand in it's way even on Torment, gain a couple lvls and now you have enough essence to make a Terror Vlish which will frighten away the mid level enemies it can't kill, continue to grab a few easy lvls till you have 125 essence, learn to make a Gazer and grab a Gazer canister, lvl till you have 250 essence, make an eyebeast.

 

Now every time you enter combat mode BAM! everything in sight is dead, or stunned long enough for to take your second turn and BAM! now it's dead. The only things you can't take on are the really higher lvl swarms of enemies, and you can take on even them if know the right strategies. By lvl 4 you can have a terror vlish, by 10 a Gazer, and by 16 an eyebeast. All of them less if you know where to sneak into to grab intelligence canisters and intelligence/shaping enhancing items.

[The Ripper]

Side note: Shades/Ghosts must have essense too, since some can spray acid, right?

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by The Ripper:
Side note: Shades/Ghosts must have essense too, since some can spray acid, right?

But wouldn't that be just plain old magic, as they're magical constructs. It would just use the essnge from the mage/thing that turned them into ghosts/shades. I'd assume that would weaken the spell holding them together (which is why they stop every now and then).

- Archmagus Micael

[Geneforge_Fan]

Hint to Jeff: CANISTERS!!!!!!!!!! LOTS AND LOTS OF CANISTERS!!! please?

[VCH]

Actually it would be interesting if through the game you essential follow the path of some canister using junky. Then towards the end game you could confront the altered and now deranged shaper. It would be a perspective on what the players character must seem like by the end of G1-G3.

[Zeviz]

Or, in an even more bizzare twist, the player character from Gf3 could be the final boss of Gf4. Another boss could be a Geneforge-using player character from Gf1, who went off to make his own kingdom somewhere, but could get involved in larger politics again.

[Nick Ringer]

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:
Or, in an even more bizzare twist, the player character from Gf3 could be the final boss of Gf4. Another boss could be a Geneforge-using player character from Gf1, who went off to make his own kingdom somewhere, but could get involved in larger politics again.

I had imagined the PC's of previous games being NPC's of subsequent games. I was disappointed twice.

[Nick Ringer]

Double Post.

[Spidweb]

"I had imagined the PC's of previous games being NPC's of subsequent games. I was disappointed twice."

 

This will never happen. It just feels weird to me. And your characters are your characters ... I don't want to take control of them, beyond referring vaguely to what they did in the past.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Nick Ringer]

Well I didn't mean "disappointed" in the sense that I didn't like the games. Just that, what I predicted was false.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

What ending of G3 will it follow? Will there be Ur-Drakons roaming the land? Maybe you start of by meeting one. Will they be the 5th tier creation? Or will it follow the shaper ending? Will making and destroying Geneforges be the priority? Will it take place in the same time but on the mainland?

 

I am undecided. What do YOU think?

[Nick Ringer]

I think I'm drunk.

 

I don't like being able to just create Ur-Drakons when it takes years of research to create a pool to transform just one existing powerful Drakon. In fact I think Drakons should be removed altogether. [EDIT] I mean, removed from the PC being able to SHAPE THEM. they're their own race.

[Dolphin]

I'd prefer to see new creations rather than being able to make Ur-Drakons. For the cost of essence it takes to make Drakons they are really not strong enough. My Drayks and Cryodrayks were nearly as strong after having gained a few levels from combat xp.

 

Having two or three Drayks/Cryodrayks will get you further than having one Drakon.

[Zeviz]

The main purpose of creatures of the Ur-Drakon level is just to look cool. By the time you collect enough canisters to make them, you are so powerful that you don't really need them.

 

This is the main reason I hope new creatures in Gf4 will be of low to medium level, instead of super-ultra-powerful demi-gods. The power range is well balanced already and more creatures at the top of the chart will forse weaker old creatures to become obsolete even sooner, making the strategy of keeping a few creatures alive for a long time less viable.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Ok, ok. I get it. You don't want to make an Ur-Drakon. But What ending wll it follow? Will it take place right after, a while after, or at the same time as G3? Will there be rebellions within each faction? Wll there be high ranking traitor spies? And finally.... will the Geneforge be already made?

[Nick Ringer]

I was pretty sure we established it's soon after GF3 ... supposed to be the war between rebels and Shapers. The Geneforge itself won't play a big role from what I've heard.

 

Why doesn't the PC make a Geneforge? A good prequel would have us play as Danette.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The problems of playing as Danette are:

1. You would be forced to play as a Shaper.

2. You would have to be a Loyalist.

3. Nothing to fight. The island isn't overrun by rogues.

4. If you played GF1, you probably have a pretty good idea of what happened, therefore, no new suprises.

5. You would start out very powerful.

6. There's the part about you dying...

7. Can't choose your own name.

8. No Rothgroths, Gazers, and other, newer creations.

9. You would start out as the Big Cheese. The boss, for those of you unfamiliar with English.

10. No "canister finding" element. They would all just be in a big lab.

11. Drayks are legal creations.

12. You would have to play as a woman.

13. The missions would probably end up as, fetch x of this, fetch y of that.

14. Lots of people know Sucia Island like the back of their hand.

[Dolphin]

Quote:

Originally written by Mr.Bookworm:
12. You would have to play as a woman.

Considering the current Agent and Guardian graphics I don’t see how this would be any different.

[Delicious Vlish]

I'd like to see an option to destroy canisters instead of using them.

 

Seems, I don't know, wrong somehow that a Loyalist Shaper would just move along and leave something that dangerous behind.

 

I mean, that's just stupid.

[Nick Ringer]

Okay, I retract that. Instead, play Trajkov in the events leading up to the PC's arrival on Sucia.

 

Geneforge: the Forging of the Sholai

 

Yeah. You could destroy Lankan's canister... I think you should be able to pick up other canisters and carry them with you. Even if they weigh ten pounds or something, it's worth selling them to "crazed canister junkies."

[VCH]

Do the shapers have the ability to shape plants? I mean beyond the turrets.