A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4

[Spidweb]

Despite a new infant, food poisoning, and general inertia, I've now completed the first 5 areas of Geneforge 4. I have a lot better idea of the shape the game is going to take. I hope to have actual screen shots and PR available in a month or two.

 

The game will be smaller in size than Geneforge 3, but with a much higher plot density. I've tried to make the game have a more intricate plot and more involved quest chains, battles, and characters. I have some concern that the amount of talky interaction in the game will cost me hack-n-slash gamer money, and this bums me out, but it ended up being the sort of game I wanted to write, so here we are.

 

Avernum 4's relative success bought me some extra time, and, when I wasn't spending that time parenting, I spent it polishing Geneforge 4 and reworking a lot of stuff that was overdue for it. I added a lot of polish to the graphics, to the item system, and to the creations for starters.

 

There will be some weather effects. They have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. They're just pretty.

 

There are five basic rebel character types. Four of them are human. As said before, their are 3 new creations and eight new spells. I am also making some major changes to the alternate creation types to make them more interesting.

 

The game still tracks your allegiance to one side or the other, but the system is now based far more on actions and less on conversation. A lot of encounters have a pro-rebel and a pro-shaper resolution.

 

Still hope to have it out for the Mac by Christmas.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Zeviz]

Sounds like it will be one of the best Spidweb games. Especially this part:

Quote:

...

The game will be smaller in size than Geneforge 3, but with a much higher plot density. I've tried to make the game have a more intricate plot and more involved quest chains, battles, and characters.

...

The game still tracks your allegiance to one side or the other, but the system is now based far more on actions and less on conversation. A lot of encounters have a pro-rebel and a pro-shaper resolution.

[Nick Ringer]

I sympathize with the food poisoning most of all. I once had it, really, really bad. Unable to throw up for four days of nauseating agony, spent trying to induce puking as I knelt before the god of porcelain. Eventually lost consciousness and vomited my [expletive left to imagination of reader] brains out in a stupor.

 

Love quests that lead to more quests. Oooh, how I hope Sholai are playable!

 

... this calls for a celebration. A canister, please, Igor.

 

(EDIT) Can there be animations of canister use? or unlocking things? Oh, please? I'll do the animation myself and everything ... I'm good with cartooning and 3D modelling!

[Masked Man of Inscrutability]

Wow! That sounds really cool! It plays up everything that is good about the Geneforge series!

 

Z

[dareva]

Game news sounds good! Wishing much progress and quick banishment of real-life illnesses.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Spidweb:

 

Quote:

I have some concern that the amount of talky interaction in the game will cost me hack-n-slash gamer money, and this bums me out, but it ended up being the sort of game I wanted to write, so here we are.

Don't be too bummed out. There are some gamers who would be more willing to pay for talky interaction than for a pure hack-n-slash.

 

Dikiyoba thinks all the information revealed so far sounds excellent.

[Randomizer]

Sounds good so far. Since hack-and-slash in Geneforge seems to mean kill it first before you die, it might be better. Talking can be fun if it involves some thought instead of trying to push towards a side for benefits.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
There are five basic rebel character types. Four of them are human.

Unfortunately, that means no Sholai. Jeff has already said you will be able to play as a Servile, so the one remaining class must be a Servile.

[Dikiyoba]

Sholai are human, though. They aren't the same ethnicity as the Shapers, but they are human.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Bomber]

Cool more spells and creations.

One question: Will the awakened be in Geneforge 4?

If so COOL!!!

[Nick Ringer]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Sholai are human, though. They aren't the same ethnicity as the Shapers, but they are human.

Dikiyoba.

That was my assumption. Besides, can you think of four other classes? Let us speculate:
- Servile (good at infiltration?)
- Outsider (Villager or whatever)
- Sholai (Sailor, I guess as to Shaper)
- Warrior (as to Guardian)
- Mage (as to Agent)

[Slawbug]

Hip hip hooray!

[Mr.Bookworm]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Sholai are human, though. They aren't the same ethnicity as the Shapers, but they are human.

Good point. I think there will be three classes that replace Shaper (Good at shaping, decent at magic, bad in combat), Guardian (Good at combat, decent in shaping, and bad in magic), and Agent (Good at Magic, decent in combat, and bad in shaping) but what about the other two? Maybe... a Sorcerer (Great at magic, decent at shaping, bad at combat) and a Servile(Good at combat, decent at magic,bad in shaping). Any of these could be a Sholai (except for Servile).

Chart of My Class Predictions:
Researcher (Good at shaping, decent at magic, bad in combat)
Warrior (Good at combat, decent in shaping, and bad in magic)
Assassin (Good at Magic, decent in combat, and bad in shaping)
Sorcerer (Great at magic, decent at shaping, bad at combat)
Servile (Good at combat, decent at magic, bad in shaping) Would actually affect gameplay and dialouge (e.g. People treat you with contempt or, you can't join the Loyalists).
All of the human four could possibly be a Sholai.

[Spidweb]

One more thing that I think I should throw out here is that I do not think that the Sholai will have a major part to play in the rest of the Geneforge saga.

 

This is why. The rest of the games will focus with the full, sickening unleashing of the powers of the Shapers, and everyone, human and creation, dealing with the aftermath.

 

That is why I don't really want the Sholai to be involved. They are staying well back from the crazy people. The Shapers and rebels are going to have to fix their problems on their own.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Mr.Bookworm]

Ooookay, so the Sholai won't be a character type.

[Grain of Salt]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The game will be smaller in size than Geneforge 3, but with a much higher plot density. I've tried to make the game have a more intricate plot and more involved quest chains, battles, and characters. I have some concern that the amount of talky interaction in the game will cost me hack-n-slash gamer money, and this bums me out, but it ended up being the sort of game I wanted to write, so here we are.

*A light shines down from above, and a course of angels sing*

Seriously, this is awesome. No need to play a pacifist just so I can stomach it anymore! Random creations related to the plot! NO MORE HACKING AND SLASHING!

I really don't think you should worry about hack-n-slash gamer money. Not many people who play your games play them for the adrenalin rush of hacking through skeletons. Even if they do, they shouldn't when they could easily be playing FPSs or next-gen RPGs. I think that the majority of your fan base does not like hack-n-slash, and will be very happy about the plot density.

(Out of curiosity, where does this one take place? Terrestia? )

[Delicious Vlish]

Is it possible for a Vlish to wet himself?

 

I think I just did.

 

Unleashing the true power of the shapers... Ur Vlish! It'll be the most powerful creation ever.

[MagmaDragoon]

I'm sooo happy! Geneforge 4 and Cristhmas too!

 

Nothing other to say. Simply, I'm very happy. And very proud to have a Mac since I was 6.

 

Some questions:

- The system requiements: Panther will be enough?

- How much GF4 will cost? 25$ as usual?

- The old spells/creations won't be replaced, right?

- The Shaping Skills will have more importance, as we suggested?

 

Thanks.

[Delicious Vlish]

Heh. Mac users get G4 for Christmas. I guess the Windows folks will have to settle for a lump of coal in their stockings.

 

We shall eat candy canes and wage war. It shall be glorious.

[Student of Trinity]

Hmm. I was kind of betting on a serious Sholai angle, but now that Jeff says it, I guess that would be kind of a cop-out. The great war needs to be fought out, without irrelevant distractions. It will be very interesting if the player really gets a chance to change the outcome of the whole shootin' match.

 

I still think it would be cool to have the occasional Sholai onlooker, just to comment on the mayhem. And maybe walk in and take over afterwards. Trajkov's revenge would be a good sort of epilogue for the series, I feel.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Trajkov's revenge would be a good sort of epilogue for the series, I feel.

Probably won't happen though. The epilogue will probably be up to
you, the player. As always.

[Student of Trinity]

Well, but it isn't. After you walk into that final exit zone, Jeff tells you what happens, and what he tells depends on factors far beyond your control, even if you are one mighty player by the end of the game. So we could learn that the Sholai eventually colonize the former battlefields of the Shaper War, and that would be a sort of poetic justice on the Shapers and all their works.

[Grain of Salt]

I think that he means that the ending is determined by your actions, and it is: you get different endings based on what allegiance you are.

[Spidweb]

"Seriously, this is awesome. No need to play a pacifist just so I can stomach it anymore! Random creations related to the plot! NO MORE HACKING AND SLASHING!"

 

Oh, I wouldn't want to overstate that case. There are plenty of zones swarming with monsters in need of ass-kicking. There is a war going on after all.

 

It's just that the ratio of story to fight is higher.

 

Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

 

This change should extend to all future games.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Grain of Salt]

That's what I meant. I define "hack & slash" as "turn corner, kill zombie, turn corner, kill zombie, turn corner, kill zombie, turn corner, kill BIG zombie, turn corner... etc." I have nothing against big battles that are related to the plot.

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

That's excellent. Not only does that fit well with any story, and make the game more enjoyable, it also forces hardcore players to deviate from the tried and true formulas (agent pumping battle magic using firebolt, etc) and be more creative, which they will enjoy. I'm very glad to hear this.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by i v. I:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

That's excellent. Not only does that fit well with any story, and make the game more enjoyable, it also forces hardcore players to deviate from the tried and true formulas (agent pumping battle magic using firebolt, etc) and be more creative, which they will enjoy. I'm very glad to hear this.

All of my Agents thus far can deal with swarms just fine and come away with nary a scratch.

I hate to say this, and I know I will be pelted with rotten fruit, but the Agent type characters in the Geneforge series needs to be toned down considerably. They have been up to this point walking talking nuclear bombs.

It would also be nice if Jeff could somehow script Loyalist Agents to behave like my Agents. If I was playing a rebel shaper type, I know for certain that I would dread running in to an enemy agent that follows my blue print. Charm, Terror, Daze, clouds of acid and fire. That would be terrible to run in to.

[Nick Ringer]

I personally like insurmountable enemies. Perhaps someone you meet at the beginning and really want to kill, but there's no way you could.

 

Also, the multiple-stage battles were very cool. Like Litalia doing her "Akhari! Take me!" the first time you beat her down.

 

I've never really had to make the choice between battle and diplomacy; I'm glad that's better-defined. Usually I was able to break all the doors and traps, talk everyone into submission, then go back just to kill everything that moves. Lots of experience, never had to choose one path.

[VCH]

"Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

 

This change should extend to all future games".

 

Very cool. Larger groups would be more realistic. After all why are all the monsters just randomly covering a certain area?

[Micawber]

Of course we have seen something of this already - there are a few zones where you meet "patrols" of monsters. In GF2 & GF3 these tended to be linked to some sort of a mechanical device to deactivate the patrol. But I welcome the extension of the principle to other zones.

 

For me, this should mean blessing magic becomes more useful. The problem with "fight one monster, end combat, walk a short while, fight second monster, end combat, etc" is that repeatedly casting haste, blessing, is a waste of essence. Blessing magic will be more worthwhile when you know you are fighting a group of monsters rather than a succession of individuals.

 

A little bit closer to Exile? (where wandering monsters spawned in groups...)

[Mivayan]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

This change should extend to all future games.

- Jeff Vogel

Me likey a lot! Now I can play parties with less annoyance.

[robsavage]

I don't really have any suggestions for the game, but I do have a comment about it.

 

I'm more than confident in your ability to produce another amazing piece to the Geneforge Series. I base this confidence on the extremely enjoyable storylines, the environments, the characters, and action within the games thusfar...not to mention the continuous playability of the games in general.

 

I just wish you(Jeff Vogel)the best of luck and hope you enjoy making them as much as I, and plenty of other people, enjoy playing them.

 

P.S. Congratulations on completing the first 5 areas.

[*i]

Very good news indeed, I must say that I am impressed with what I'm hearing. Having groups of combat (call it event based combat) rather than the traditional hack-fests are really nice. I enjoy it when combat makes me think.

 

Good to see new creations and character classes, keeps the game fresh. I'm enthusiastic with what I see because things were feeling like the same game over and over again.

[Thralni]

WOW! Maybe I'm gonna like Geneforge for a change. Weather effects... Sounds cool. I'm looking forward to this, I really do.

[Dolphin]

This is so nice to hear

 

More in-depth plot, new creations and spells, and five character classes sounds great. Having the PC's actions rather than dialog options determine their allegiance is a nice improvement too. I also really like the idea of the creatures being grouped rather than randomly spread out, as I like battles to be based on strategy more than strength alone.

[Masked Man of Inscrutability]

I, too, am looking forward to the "patrol group" style combat. As someone mentioned before, the patrol areas in Geneforge are especially fun because they really force the player to consider how he or she will approach the zone. Does the pay load up on spell buffs and creations to tackle the enemies head on? Does the player look for the opportunity to pick off members of the patrol who get too far behind? Does the player attempt to avoid combat all together and sneak around them?

 

So far, I think we all agree that this group-based combat will create a more memorable and fun experience.

 

Hurray!

 

Z

[Delicious Vlish]

Enemy swarms are part of what makes Agents so powerful.

 

Starting from G1, with the gate battle and all those augmented Sholai, the more enemies there are the easier it becomes. Charm one or two of those Sholai and the battle was pretty much over.

 

Same deal in G2 and G3. The more enemies present, the better the odds of total mayhem. Especially with spawner types.

 

If G4 has massive swarms, the Agent will continue to reign supreme on the battlefield. The more enemies there are, the more damage an Agent type will potentially be able to do. After all, the enemy is the best weapon an Agent has. They are expendable and cheap...

[Mr.Bookworm]

Besides Dominate, what about Aura of Flames? If enemies are in groups, that means they're all clustered together. Perfect fodder for Aura of Flames.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Besides Dominate, what about Aura of Flames? If enemies are in groups, that means they're all clustered together. Perfect fodder for Aura of Flames.

 

Edit: Whoops. Must have clicked twice.

[Delicious Vlish]

Aura of Flames is not enough. On Torment, you have to do something to hold the enemy back from you.

 

On Torment, enemies become so tough that they typically can not beat themselves. That 800 hit point augmented Sholai, instead of being your worst enemy, becomes your best friend after hijacking his mind. On lower difficulties, this effect is really not noticeable. Nor is it needed really. An Agent could sneeze and destroy entire legions on lower difficulties. But her power grows as the game difficulty climbs. The higher the difficulty, the more power an Agent type will have.

 

Stomp in to a room, Daze, Dominate, Terror, whatever works, scatter your enemies and thin them out, get them focused on each other, and they will completely ignore you, which allows you to cut loose with clouds of acid and flames in total safety. (One of the many reasons why Agent types need no endurance) On Torment level, high level enemies go through their own ranks and slaughter their former allies like pigs.

 

In short, the more dangerous the game becomes, the safer a properly built Agent will be.

[Grain of Salt]

What about groups of many weaker enemies?

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
In short, the more dangerous the game becomes, the safer a properly built Agent will be.

Unless, of course, Dominate is weakened.

[Delicious Vlish]

I am not convinced nerfing Dominate is the answer. A smart Shaper uses it too, though it is not as effective. Nerf Dominate, and for other classes, it would be to weak to be useful.

 

It's the Agent as a class that needs, well, a spanking. With a nerf stick.

 

As for the point with swarms of many weaker enemies, they will all die horribly with but a gesture or two. Strong Daze followed by multiple chain castings of Aura of Flames. Or let go of an acid shower or two, charm one, and run away to hide round a corner. Come back a bit later and pick up loot.

 

The problem is very simple. The Agent is all power with no known liabilities. And I am afraid that the mage or agent type class in G4 will turn out the same. I certainly hope that this is not the case. I want something new and different. There is nothing that the Shaper or Guardian types can do that the Agent can't do better. An Agent doesn't even need to deplete her essence to summon creations. It is a waste of time. If summons are really needed, they can be Dominated. Agents are better at melee than the Guardian as well.

 

I'd like to see a big change in the pecking order of power for G4.

[Slawbug]

I think this problem crops up with magic-heavy strategies in all of Jeff's games, though. Jeff relies heavily on spell point availability to balance the power of magic. Admittedly, the use of essence in addition to spell points for spells in Geneforge is a very nice way to do this. Nonetheless, this means that a mage in any game with a pile of energy potions or essence pods is rarely going to be challenged. This is why swarms at least have a *chance* of stopping an agent: if they're too weak, they may simply have too little spell energy to fire their favorite spell off enough times. Individual enemies can just be picked off one by one, with plenty of time to restore energy.

 

I guess this is kind of symptomatic of modern RPGs, where magic is dispensed Monty Haul style. RPGs where you actually have to conserve your MP, where you get beaten up little by little and have to endure, are a thing of the past. I just expect more from Spidweb.

[Nick Ringer]

Good observations by Delicious Vlish ... Dominate could be a lesser-lasting spell, perhaps? Takes 2 turns to cast maybe. And lasts just 5. Less dependant on skill.

[Major]

I don't think that changing the strength of Dominate

would solve the problem. I think the answer would be in weakening the strength of the actual agent.

And maybe increasing the power of guardians and shapers? Or whatever classes are in Geneforge 4.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
Agents are better at melee than the Guardian as well.

Really? I can't see how that's possible. But then, I have not tested it.

[Delicious Vlish]

Decreasing the power of the Agent is easier said than done. The Agent increases in power as the game gets harder and the enemies get tougher. She is only as strong as her enemies. Cranking the difficulty up to Torment actually makes the Agent easier to play. I don't know how to fix that. I mean, how do you tone that down?

 

Scale back her magical abilities and you only hurt the Shaper type class in the long run and their ability to support their creations with the occasional bit of fireworks. You really can't tone down her melee abilities. They are not a big deal to begin with. And shaping is a non issue. Her strength, magical ability, is held hostage by the Shaper class. You can't really tone back magical damage with out seriously compromising the Shaper.

 

I'd like to see a Servile Cultist type class and see how that goes.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
Decreasing the power of the Agent is easier said than done. The Agent increases in power as the game gets harder and the enemies get tougher. She is only as strong as her enemies. Cranking the difficulty up to Torment actually makes the Agent easier to play. I don't know how to fix that. I mean, how do you tone that down?

Scale back her magical abilities and you only hurt the Shaper type class in the long run and their ability to support their creations with the occasional bit of fireworks. You really can't tone down her melee abilities. They are not a big deal to begin with. And shaping is a non issue. Her strength, magical ability, is held hostage by the Shaper class. You can't really tone back magical damage with out seriously compromising the Shaper.

I'd like to see a Servile Cultist type class and see how that goes.

Edit.

Agents far outclass Guardians in melee. Their cranked blessing magic, various buffs like augmentation and steel skin, mass energise, strong daze, and all those factors allow them to rip enemies to shreds while being practically immune to physical or magical damage, moving at incredible speed, and stabbing things at a whim because everything around them is frozen solid from daze. While the melee skills cost a bit more, they level out quickly. The Agent's ability to buff themselves in to god-like stature far outshines anything a Guardian could muster.

Crap. Second edit. This should have been an edit of my first post, and not a quote. Argh. And I have no mod powers here to fix my dreadful mistake. Somebody please clean this up if they could.

[VCH]

Quoting yourself. But guardians have the same augmentation abilities. In G3 my guardian by endgame had all the blessing magics, and augmentations such as Battle Roar, steel skin, and Essence armour. Those coupled with speed and normal blessing makes the guardian easily equal to any Agent. After all doesn't a Guardian get melee bonuses? I still don't see how Agents are superior.

 

Edit: The above combined with 450 Hps, and 110% armour, with 100% resistance to all effects, should easily overpower and Daze spell.