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improvements for geneforge 3.... your thoughts


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Music: Crappy suggestion. It won't happen. Period. Jeff has already said he's sticking with the current system of sound effects, and music inevitably gets redundant and annoying, with only 2 exceptions I can think of. Of all time. If you miss music, play a cd.

 

Flying creations: A nice thought, but again: won't happen. Requires way to much work for no more benefit that would be gained.

 

Internet Play: ROTFLMAO. If I had a nickel... I would be 5 cents richer. But anyway, if it was possible, the chances of that happening would be less than 0. Since it's not, we'll just round it to 0.

 

Suggestions I think have a better than 95% chance of being implemented: numbers 3,5,6,9,10,11,13, and 16 from my last post. I think others have merit, but I don't know how much of a change Jeff would be willing to make. No matter how he handles GF3, I'll probably end up buying it. For your suggestions, think seriously about what that kind of change would entail, and how severely it would change the way the game is played now. This shouldn't be a dream list for some game that hasn't been made, it should be ideas for small changes to improve a game that already exists.

 

I'm not intolerably bitter and acidic, am I?

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Whats wrong with music? Music builds the mood for the game. If you hate it so much than Jeff could implement an option that lets you turn it off. Most games allow you to adjust music volume anyway. Music doesn't ever get redundant in games like Vice City where there are hours of tracks. Laughing about internet play is ridiculous. Of course its possible you idiot! Lots of RPG's have internet play. Diablo 2 being a prime example as one of the best selling games ever made. Besides i'm not talking about a whole new world for internet play, just a few arenas for 1v1 matches vs your friends or co-op.

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I know it's possible, I was refering to the fact that it's not possible for the chances to be less than zero. There have been many discussions on this subject, and the fact is: it won't happen.

 

And on music, Jeff has already said he likes the way it's handled now and isn't planning on changing it. Music unnecessarily increases download time, something Jeff just isn't willing to do.

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That makes sense, but possibly a seperate download for those of us who have cable? Or perhaps it would come with the CD when you register it.

 

Eventually his games will need much longer download times if he wants to be competetive with 3D RTS like Dungeon Siege. IMO Geneforge 2 was much better than Dungeon Siege. But if they can actually get a good story line for something like that then there would be no reason to get Geneforge 3.

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I could care less about music, but I would like to see a more balanced difficulty in the future GF. GF1 is well-balanced throughout the game. I didn't feel too intimidated stepping out from demo regions whereas in GF2, the demo areas are rather ridiculously easy (not counting Sharon's creatures, of course), then WOW!!! after that, it is just like hell.

 

I realize there are people who love tough challenging games out there, but that's why there are different difficulties to choose from.

 

Please make easy or normal level more suitable for new players.

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The weapons in this game are not that powerful.In GF1 Discipline wand was the ultimate weapon and every use removed a charge of it.It's not so in GF2 and hope so it is in GF3.

 

I want to ask a question does Jeff Vogel or any lead developers ever reads this topic's contents or are we just day dreaming about the GF3.

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I have just played Avernum series, and I like that when pc faces monsters, there is usually message asking for attack and in town mode, one can also attack without going into combat mode.

 

I wish GF has that b/c many times, I got into combat mode just barely at an edge of monster's vision but unfortunately not my vision thus cost me some ap.

 

And definitely, more variety of inventory item graphic - maybe some differential between regular items and special items.

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I agree with Dragongirl about the ability to attack someone without going into ttack mode. This is because it would be a major plus for the Guardian and maybe the Agent to.

 

Also with the item differentiality. Maybe you could have some special graphic changes to the item or a different color in the wording of the weapon that suggests its better. (like in the Diablo games)Great suggestion Dragongirl along with other people who might have posted these suggestions earlier in the topic laugh

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Ya know, wouldn't a nice agent bonus would be a slightly larger sight radius? That would kinda-sorta go with the idea of stealth - I'd kill to be able to avoid those turrets early in the game. But, it might also be too big of a bonus; I seriously doubt I'd play anything other than an agent if she had such a bonus.

 

Also, I for one would love to have some sort of plugin for an MP3 player, so you could have music going and be able to load up a song or two without leaving the game. I don't *think* it would be too difficult, although it could end up looking like a quick-fix... Nothing special, though, just a little apparatus you could access from the in-game menu (the one with the "save,""load,""prefrences" options.)

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I agreee with what dragongirl said about leveled difficulty. I feel like the demo levels are just an excuse to gain levels and the rest is death in every other section. Maybe it is just me but I am sick of haivng to run back and forth to recharge on some particularly hard fighting levels

 

Also I agree with what people have said about different items looking different. There is nothing more annoying than going through a hundred iron swords to find that one special sword that some enemy dropped

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A thought I had a while ago while playing another game call "Arcanum, of Steamworks & Magick Obscura."

In this game you can make your own weapons, armor, and tools, from component parts after learning the how to.

I wonder if the shaping skills could be used in a similar way. and make use of all those sticks, stones, and severed limbs we find everywhere.

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You have to go near an item to pick it up.In Avernum 3 you can pick up any thing in your character's sight.It would be good if it was like that in Geneforge 3.

 

Music is not a bad idea after all.Pleasant music in towns and Ghosty music in dungeons lights up the game.For people who hate music there should be an option to stop the music in the preferences.

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I'd like to be able to click on the map view to leave a stick pin that links up to a note. I get lost too easily.

 

I'd also like to be able to toggle a map view for the area without invoking the movement mode.

 

I'd also like to have the links between maps show up in the map view when you find an entrance/exit rather than actually having to travel it. I get curious and want to map out everything, but when you travel the permanent enchantments go away.

 

Also, when someone tells you about area, or gives you directions, could that part of the map be uncovered a little?

 

on a completely different topic: Why can't we have the option to dismiss creations? It seems brutal to reabsorb them. You'd think someone who aligns with the Awakened would be morally oposed. And when you walk into an Awakened settlement, possessing creatures should affect your ranking with them.

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sheila, it doesnt make sense to dismiss creations instead of reaborbing them... they take up precious essence! letting them go would leave you with no creature fighting for you and essence you dont have access to!

 

One thing i thought about last night when i noticed i have almost 24,000 gold coins!! and i was carrying only 72 pounds. isnt it unrealistic to not have coins count as weight!? surely i couldnt lift more than a few hundred at a time.... i think a bank to store money in would solve the problem, and also a chest to store 30 items in would be nice. No more stockpiling hundreds of items all over the place! Not only does it make the game too easy, now if the item is dropped and you leave the screen, the item would be lost forever! This brings a lot more strategy to the game and forces you to save only special items.

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Quote:
Originally written by Lenny Hipp:
One thing i thought about last night when i noticed i have almost 24,000 gold coins!! and i was carrying only 72 pounds. isnt it unrealistic to not have coins count as weight!? surely i couldnt lift more than a few hundred at a time....
I think you might have a problem with $20, if you divide it all up in pennies...

This is probably one of those "multiple pieces of currency" things that is left to the player's common sense and/or negligence. In Avernum, gold coins got you 40 coins, silver got you 8 or 20, and copper a few. A few RPGs have actually attempted to worry about the weight of currency, including Castle of the Winds and Realms of Arcania, and in both of those it did increase strategy but also decreased the amount of fun. It's a tradeoff.
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The main advantage of flying creatures is that you would have to use flying or missile weapons creatures to attack them if they were intelligent. No intelligent flying magic using creature is going to close with a guardian with a giant sword and heavy armor or a battle beta-- if they can just fry them from a distance.

 

It might be nice to have some missile type combats with barriers to close in combat. This might make it necessary to have a more mixed group of creatures-- some distance attackers and some not.

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A few suggestions...

 

Have more distinctions among the three classes. Have each class learn a skill or gain an ability unique to that class. The Shaper, Guardian, and Agent all have the potential to shape, to use magic, or to physically pummel an opponent. There is not much distinction, in my opinion. An example would be a Shaper learning the ability to shape the most powerful creation, not an Agent or a Guardian.

 

One should be able to further evolve a creation. An example of this is the Battle Alpha. You can evolve the Alpha to a Beta, but not to a Gamma.

 

Not too keen on the idea of flying creations. There are potential flying creations in GF2: the drakons of the Barrier of the Winds. If flying creations are introduced in GF3, they should be a creation of the foe(s) you must defeat. One of the endings of GF2 eludes to "other bizarre creations" wrecking havok. It could be a flying creation.

 

If the option to hire mercenary is in GF3, there should be some consequences (along the lines one has when using the canisters). Think about the impression that would have on humans; the mighty Shaper can create anything but must call upon the "lowly" humans for help. What would this do to the reputation of Shapers?

 

This was mentioned, I am sure, but a faction that deals with summoning infernal creatures. We witnessed a sample of that (Barhzites, Takers, and Tuldaric). What would happen if a faction were successful in summoning and binding a demon?

 

Have areas where one can level up past level 30 easily. My Agent was level 45 when I completed the game, but I had to find enemies that were worthwhile to kill (i.e., experience).

 

Just a few of my suggestions...

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I like the idea character specifc skills.

 

I think that there should be a character-specifc stat, like a stat for agents that gives your spells a chance of splitting to hit multiple enemies, or a stat for shapers that increases all you creation quality, etc.

 

Also, more stats. There are no new stats between GF and GF2 except Parry, which they swapped for Anatomy.

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I would like to see a bit more realistic strength of monsters versus your PC & creations and a fairer way of assigning experience to killing them. For the enemy to be able to get you (and/or your creations) in one or blows and there's NO WAY without cheating to get them?? I know I'm not the only one to have that experience. I read this list. Or, in the alternative, you kill a supposedly tough enemy in one or two hits and WOW, 50 experience!

 

You know those bushes that drop massive acid rain on PC and creations? They have killed my whole party in one or two drenches. I've backed off (cheated on "rechargeme" after giving all the essence shield and steelskin because there's not enough essence pods in the game) and tried again with the same result. I'm wearing every bit of acid and hostile resistance gear imaginable. And then when it's all over, 12 experience or some such amount. And people talk about "strategy" ... in this type situation, how can strategy prevent acid from wiping out the whole party (especially when playing as an agent with "adopted" characters as I'm doing right now)?

 

Not all of us are real experienced at this and I guess what I'm wondering is, should this game be marketed for experienced only? There are times when I don't think easy is easy enough. (I also liked Dragongirl's post about this.)

 

And I even wonder how experienced players can even face some of the enemies with the one-blow-and-you're-dead capability. Or how about the ones that you keep repeatedly hitting -- and I mean repeatedly! -- they take NO damage and damage you excessively every turn. Or when you're slowed and stay slowed for ten turns while they pummel you (you don't have enough AP to even use healing pods) and there's no way without "healmenow." The problem is you may need something in this particular level to be able to go further in the game successfully, like get to an exit to go to another region. Or they may be guarding some critical equipment that you need to make you stronger. But you're stuck because you can't get them.

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What about having a few regions with wholesale merchants with a lot of cash at hand? This way, if you decide to join a sect early and some merchants won't deal with you anymore, you at least can sell your items for something (even though it's less gold, it's still gold!) and then you'll be able to purchase training, supplies, etc.

 

The way the game is set up, it's not a good idea to join any sect at all until you're well into two-thirds of the regions. The problem with that is you don't get some of the good quests, like "kill so-and-so in the X-region." You've already been there, done that by the time you join them. (Do they pretend so-and-so is still alive, ask you to kill them and then you tell them you did and you STILL get experience? LOL I don't know. Didn't put it to the test.)

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I would like to make what the shapers make!! Like: Flowers, trees, HOUSES (most important), Shaping Hall, and such. And to make serviles that fight like the other creations AND carry stuff for you. I would like to be able to make tiny creations (Like the ending of Geneforge 2, that says "Your unique fun was making tiny creations and playing with them"). Of course, all i said would be impossible to be done by only 1 year (programming take a lot of effort if you dont know!!!). laugh

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Quote:
Originally written by Holly:
I would like to see a bit more realistic strength of monsters versus your PC & creations and a fairer way of assigning experience to killing them. For the enemy to be able to get you (and/or your creations) in one or blows and there's NO WAY without cheating to get them?? I know I'm not the only one to have that experience. I read this list. Or, in the alternative, you kill a supposedly tough enemy in one or two hits and WOW, 50 experience!
I've been through the whole game and never found any creature that can't be killed. And I don't cheat either. Granted I play on normal (never had the urge to try harder difficulties).

I agree on killing tough enemies in a couple of hits being a let-down. The game is a bit offensively focused...in the late game, run around in combat mode and strike first = dead opponent.

Quote:
You know those bushes that drop massive acid rain on PC and creations? They have killed my whole party in one or two drenches. I've backed off (cheated on "rechargeme" after giving all the essence shield and steelskin because there's not enough essence pods in the game) and tried again with the same result. I'm wearing every bit of acid and hostile resistance gear imaginable. And then when it's all over, 12 experience or some such amount. And people talk about "strategy" ... in this type situation, how can strategy prevent acid from wiping out the whole party (especially when playing as an agent with "adopted" characters as I'm doing right now)?
Well, granted I haven't played with a shaper, and my agent and guardian don't use creations. But as for acid bushes, just haste and hit and run them. Don't stand there and get hit. Activate haste, go into combat mode just outside their line of sight, step in, shoot, step out of range, repeat.

I've played with my agent and had little trouble. Always always buff (blessing, protection, essense armor, steel skin, haste) and run around in combat mode. That's the safest way.

Oh, and strong daze helps in a pinch.

But I do agree that resistances aren't always as effective as I think they should be.

Quote:
Not all of us are real experienced at this and I guess what I'm wondering is, should this game be marketed for experienced only? There are times when I don't think easy is easy enough. (I also liked Dragongirl's post about this.)
Well, there is a bit of a learning curve. And a lot of make a mistake and you die (again, because the game is offensively focused). A good thing to do is invest in parry...a few points there can save you from the occasional attack. And make good use of the quicksave and quickload buttons. And, basically, learn from your mistakes and develop a strategy.

Quote:
And I even wonder how experienced players can even face some of the enemies with the one-blow-and-you're-dead capability.
Lots of haste and hit-and-run. Or, for guardians, lots of parry and endurance. And buff, always buff. Or strong daze, heh.

Quote:
Or how about the ones that you keep repeatedly hitting -- and I mean repeatedly! -- they take NO damage and damage you excessively every turn.
If they take no damage, there is a problem. It probably means your skill is too low, or you are too low level, or both. Thus, you miss often or don't do enough damage to really hurt them. As an example, my agent had a battle magic of about 14 or so and spellcraft around 18 at the end of the game.

Quote:
Or when you're slowed and stay slowed for ten turns while they pummel you (you don't have enough AP to even use healing pods) and there's no way without "healmenow." The problem is you may need something in this particular level to be able to go further in the game successfully, like get to an exit to go to another region. Or they may be guarding some critical equipment that you need to make you stronger. But you're stuck because you can't get them.
Well, if you are an agent, don't get hit. Use haste to hit and run, or daze/strong daze to keep them from attacking. As a guardian without minions, I've won battles with high parry (like against the groups of ghosts you face in some areas). I'd get pummeled and be unable to move, but I would riposte once in a while and whittle them down. When I would get a chance to act, I'd attack or heal as necessary. With high parry, you can parry 50%, reduce damage 50%, and even riposte 50%. Don't ask me how that actually works, as that's 150%...that's just what the game displays.

Really, it sounds like your problem is mostly a lack of haste and hit and run, which can defeat most tough enemies. Strong daze is the best way to deal with groups...though aura of flames is fun when you can do it 3 times a round, hehe. But especially with an agent, try to avoid getting hit. And you don't need creations as an agent...
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Another suggestion would be to make the evolved forms of some creations actually different and not just change their name and color. Maybe even give the fire, battle, and magic shaped creatures their own special attributes like battle getting one more ap point or something.

 

If this was posted already in the forum I didnt see it. smile

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I think it would be very cool if when you start the new game you are the Shaper teacher and you have an apprentice follow you around but you would control him/her like a creation. He/she could carry extra stuff for you, shape the smaller creations since he/she is an apprentice. Later on in the game he may be influenced by other people and leave you to join their side and you would have to fight him/her later or something of the sort.

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I skimmed the other pages, but forgive me if this has been said already.

 

First of all, I'm a bit clumsy with the mouse and once I tried to target an adjacent thahd with a crystal and accidentally clicked myself, and proptly died from my OWN crystal blast. I have also accidentally clicked my own creations in this way too. Don't know why I should be able to target my own creations (and myself) but if it's intentional, the maybe there should be a confirmation message or something.

 

I also saw some people talking about equipping creations with armor. I f you really want to do something like this, I would suggest having charms that you can place on your creation (only one per creation, of course)that might do things like give a small armor bouns (nice for an artila) or increase the maximum spell energy slightly.

 

Uhh... I think that's all I've got...

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A lot of great suggestions, Dunbar. Thanks.

 

I wonder if my experience would be different if I played in Normal mode. Maybe there are some overlooked discrepancies in relative strengths of PC&creations vs. enemies as you go from easy to ... what is it? insane? I think that might be one of the more difficult aspects of creating a game like this -- having to basically configure four different games. Maybe it's not quite an exact science and some things were overlooked. (Of course, sometimes I'm not using optimum strategy for the situation, but not always.) Next time, I think I'll be brave and try normal.

 

But back to strategy and the learning curve. Yep. I'm not terribly experienced at this -- though I'm certainly making some progress. That's why I find myself gravitating back to this forum. The suggestions I find here have enabled me to play and actually competently get through some tough regions and even enjoy myself instead of beating my head against the wall.

 

Strategywise, it depends on what character you choose. Part of the problem is that it's hard to hit and run with a shaper. Or... if you use adopted creations! LOL They are amazingly bold ... and dumb. Can't protect 'em. Many are the battles I find myself immersed in, wishing I had dismissed these knuckleheads already. Sometimes I want to get outta town without fighting at all! But NOOOO..

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Holly:

 

Well, I have to say I have little experience with shapers. I've beat G1 and G2 with an agent, played most of the way through G1 and finished G2 with a guardian, but never got very far as a shaper in either game. Just not my style...my agents and guardians always fight alone. Draging creations along is, for me, tedious.

 

And the creations you find that you can get to join you are not that useful. A minion you cannot order around is more a hinderance than a help...I'll take one of them on and promptly use them as cannon fodder.

 

As a shaper I would think you could make headway just through hit and run kamikaze missions...that is, send your minions in while your shaper hides in a safe spot, and kill what you can. If your minions die, go back to town and make more. Though having never gotten to the late game with a shaper, I have no idea how important it is to have creations you have had for a while and leveled up...

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just an idea for a story line...some kind of conspiracy among some of the shaper council, and some outside influence, to try and gain control of everything...it would be fun to figure out who, where, why and how then choose who u wanna fight for as always...have it on the mainland near cities and such. just a rough idea...but I love mysteries ^_^

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Dunbar, you don't know tedious until you take a small army of creations, hasted and in combat mode, through one of those energy-sapping regions. Moving each little pet one by one. Or try walking over lava pits alone and skip their turns and remember to click on yourself all the time. Oops... forgot... there he goes... gee, I sure liked him.... etc., etc.

 

(To creator of the Gs... please make turn off of pets more user-friendly!)

 

I recently used the hide-and-let-them-fight strategy to good advantage, and I think it should be a staple of the shaper. I was able to turn off some spirals and steal some items while they fought.

 

And .. yeah ... you think twice about losing a creation that has leveled up way beyond anything you could re-create. I played as an agent and it was even more so... because I didn't have much invested in shaping and the drayk was darned near as strong as I was. I like to have at least one creation as an agent late in the game -- it seems to level the playing field somewhat.

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I think the idea about creation equitment could be fun but since no two creations are the same (we are talking mutants here right) it would have to be made especialy for the creation wearing it, and that sounds a little dumb to me.

i think it would be nice if creations could interact a bit more, when i make a drakon that can shape cast spells and have an IQ at about 5000 i think it is anoying that it cant even do my math, and as for speaking, do anyone remember the familiars from baldurs gate 2 ?, they spoke quite alright, not that much dialouge, but it was fun, it would also be fitting that a sentient being is actually sentient, and that means communication, and why cant drakons and drayks (and serviles if you get to make those) learn spells?

 

And another thougt, what would happen if an augmented (or geneforged) human were to have kids, i mean its in the genes, so we would have ourselves a super kid, but would it glow, and be really mean and stuff.

 

and i would like my skills to give more bonuses, i just finished another game of GF1 and my agent had 30 DEX (GENEFORGE!!!!) but where is my ekstra AP´s, and why cant my super strong guardian rip doors open, why does he have to tinker with a door lock, when he can put holes two feet wide in a drakon with his fists?

all skills should have a few high level abilities.

 

a few general shaper skills would also be nice, and perhaps not just for the shaper, but my thougt were that a Thath leg is pretty much the same as a drayk leg, so why doesnt the shaper have a "basic shaping" skill.

 

oh, and more creations would be nice, each with their own HUGE advance, i always end up with the same creations, because the other ones simply are to weak.

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i would like to be something more then a aprentice, a true shaper maybe. then i would like to travel in great shaper towns. then my inventory should be unlimited, its pure stupididi when you see a cool thing and cant take it. i would like to use the geneforge not to destroy it. its so stupid when you have a great source of power and cant use it mad . then i would like to have my own home and make turrets and mines to guard it. there also should be some more sects. old ones are boring. the idea of mercenaries is great. and i want to have more money than just lame30000. also the shopkeepers should be rich, i mean RICH. the backsounds are lame, there is no music frown . and also the sects should be powerful HA. i have killed the servants, the awakened with all their guards and the magus coplex, slayed the takers and crushed Bennerii-Uss. i havent destroyed the barzites because i am allied with them. but i wil soon beacause ill probably get borded.

Have you ever thought on a internet geneforge? it would be great. aah and one thing more there should be more armor and weaponary because just blades and swords are boring. and unlike some others i would like that quests would be all regranted with the same amount of XP . and glad with the graphics because i have played avenurms and exiles and know that the graphics there isnt a big deal. and like someone said (idont remeber his or her name) it would be great to have a drakon that shapes because it would save my essense . i hope someone will take notes because this is the resume of all the other good epinions.maybe ill add something later. wink

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i have a problem with the fact that creations dont stop enemies trying to attack me, i have 7 super loyal drayks, and even thou they have AP´s left they dont intercept enemies trying to get to me, their shaper GOD

enemies kinda just run trough them, kill me, and bang! my game is over, i want creations to protect me, shapers kinda need that, and it would remove that tedius loading after a battle alpha/beta/gamma just go for the kill even thoug i could have killed it in the following turn, which really pisses me off.

 

Oh yeah and i think it would be great if you could gain titles as you level up, i hate it when Zak keep on calling me a newbie. fore an exampel you could become a full shaper at level 25, and you could tweak the game a bit by giving some kind of bonus when becoming a full shaper. alternatly you migt get the abillity to become a full shaper at some level but would have to find some one willing to train you.

 

it would also be nice to see some special skills like in the avernum series, i loved the deept it added to my char.

 

and the evolution of you creations need to be looked in to, i was really disapointed when i found out that all my trouble, when trying to keep my cryora alive was wasted after i got the drayk, someone should fix this, as it kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the game.

 

I have thougt about that thing about having a home, i would like to have a base of operation, perhaps you could become this great shaper, and you would have to gather stuff and people to your shaping hall, while trying to keep up political relations whit the sects (and whatever is in that damn vault) and fend off occasional attacks, from your several rivals who all want the power the gene tek. can give em (or the fellows hwo want to destroy the gene stuff) it would add a whole new dimension to the game. of course you would still have to walk around whit you creations and get the stuff you need, and attack people, but you would always have a place to store stuff, and maybe wage a little war of your own, perhaps even make a forge, both for genes and iron.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dunbar, if you would, please post your recommend stats of your agent at the end of the game. I like to be agent too, usually those npc with me don't live long although they serve some purposes.

 

About the next GF, I would like to see a more detailed resistance list there. Why on earth that for instance energy resistance is not listed although it exists in the game?

 

GF1 is ok for me, but GF2 is just a tad too hard even on lower difficulty. It gets me tired and bored by the end of the game.

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