A Few Advance Notes On Geneforge 4

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Always have a small but increasing percentage chance of just going bananas with every servile interaction after using canisters.

Percentage chances just don't work. Save-and-reload has been a customary option for far too long, and most gamers these days -- even those who don't identify with Red Mage -- will use it without thinking, especially in the case of annoying effects like attacking friendly characters.

I agree with SoT. Giving the canisters positive AND negative effects on your stats, as well as positive AND negative effects on the story, would make them WAY more interesting. And they desperately need to be more interesting.

[Sticky]

It could be that encounters with a certain set of random(or preset)characters could only end in hostility. That would kill the load_save addiction.

[Mivayan]

Quote:

Originally written by AxB:
It could be that encounters with a certain set of random(or preset)characters could only end in hostility. That would kill the load_save addiction.

Do you mean random but set at game start/area load? I totally hate that.

Preset encounters, same for everyone, would be neat though.

[Dikiyoba]

I'd rather have preset encounters than random percentages when dealing with direct canister effects. It seems like preset encounters would be easier to incorporate into the storyline, as well.

 

Dikiyoba.

[MrRoivas]

If you have helpers in this game like G3, what I would like to see is a little more character development. Greta and Alwan were sooooooo blatant. Also, maybe something other than the "Bob" system could be used. Its only really been discussed in terms with Avernum, but Geneforge does it too, and I would'nt mind something new. Last note, make melee useful again. The damage reduction makes it just pitiful.

[ThirdParty]

In terms of Shaping, I've always wanted to be able to make turrets. Think of the strategy implications of a stationary creation: the player would have to place the turret well, and lure the monsters into its range.

 

I also wouldn't mind the ability to create support creatures: a vlish variant that heals nearby allies or removes bad effects, an ornk that can be eaten for energy, maybe even something that blesses allies (it would give Guardians a way to eventually take advantage of some spell effects without getting spells...).

 

The high-level battle creations are pretty redundant. I'd like to see a golem, with more defense than a battle alpha but not as strong an attack. (Ah, here's an idea: reagents that can be used during Shaping to improve creations. Kind of like augmentation of weapons: give a creation a poisoned stinger, or extra speed, or a tougher carapace, by Shaping it with the proper ingredient...)

[Igor]

I really want to see more crafting, but not so much with trivial items like wands of fire (not worth using a stick for).

 

I also want a greater variety of low-level creations, possibly even a new catagory of creatures aside from Fire, Battle, and Shaping. Starting every game with a fyora is ... meh.

[MagmaDragoon]

I want to the Fire, Battle, and Magic Shaping abilities have more influence on creations. For example, after a Fyora is shaped, I can make it more strong with boosting Fire Shaping.

 

I also want to see equipment for creations and followers!

[Micawber]

I agree about shaping skills. At the moment there are too many special artifacts that you equip for making creations and then remove immediately. This feels a bit artificial. The player's investment of skill points in shaping skills should be worth more.

 

One possibility would be to decouple a creations chance of going rogue, or getting scared when wounded, from its intelligence skill and link it instead to the PC's shaping skill in the relevant category. The disadvantage with this is that intelligence >2 then becomes meaningless for creations that don't have a missile attack.

 

Another possibility is that your creations act sooner and have more APs the higher your shaping skill - justified by the idea that better shapers can control creations' movements more closely. Acting sooner is currently linked to dexterity but could easily be unlinked. Any AP increase would have to be done cautiously, for instance level 8 shaping gives (a chance of?) +1 AP, level 12 gives (a chance of?) +2 AP. I conjecture there are not many players who currently take their shaping skill above 8 when playing normally (for myself, I'd rather spend the points on intelligence).

 

A further possibility is that higher shaping skills should influence the creations' armour or resistances. AFAIK at present the only way to increase a creation's resistances is to buy endurance for the creation or to equip special items.

 

I'm not going to suggest anything radical like lower essence cost for creations, or a new third tier of creations, because this would alter the balance of the game too much, and I don't think Jeff would want to do that.

 

Hmm, I'm sure I didn't start out to write at such length...

[Student of Trinity]

In line with my oft-expressed interest in explaining the many different ways creations get made (viz., birth, PC's 'crackle-poof', vats, etc.), perhaps there could be Shaping labs where PCs with high enough skill could make special creations. These creations would only be makeable there. They might even need time and special ingredients to grow, so that there could be a whole mini-string of quests that would gain the player something like a Battle Gamma, say. (Well, something better than a Battle Gamma would be nicer, but I leave that to someone else to specify.) Perhaps these special creatures would not need personal Essence to maintain.

 

Perhaps there could be a door that only such a creation could open.

 

Stuff like that. It's sort of an obvious combination of the Shaping ability and the Crafting ability, so I imagine Jeff will consider something along these lines at some point anyway, if he hasn't already.

[Nick Ringer]

I really enjoyed the "cutscenes" in GF3. With Litalia and her fading shade are the only examples I can recall. Simple. But dynamical.

 

Day. Night. Rain. Snow is nice. Just needless visuals with no effect would be, super.

 

Also, I've always had an intense urge to play a rousing game of "Boardgame" or "Dice." Them guards get bored.

 

Now here's a more radical idea. Jeff's decriptions of Shaping have always been vague, but I get something like this: the Shaper releases essence from his or her body, concentrates, and extends a little magical energy to direct the essence. Bam, new Creation. My idea: you have to actively do something skillful to shape. So maybe if you have crappy Shaping skill, you can still do a good job. I can't imagine how you would control Shaping. Sort of a mini-game thing that's so hard to incorporate it's probably not worth it. But cool.

 

I'm sleepy.

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Nick Ringer:
I really enjoyed the "cutscenes" in GF3. With Litalia and her fading shade are the only examples I can recall. Simple. But dynamical.

Also, I've always had an intense urge to play a rousing game of "Boardgame" or "Dice." Them guards get bored.

I would like movies and cutscenes. I think that a benginning movie and an ending movie, after the cutscenes like GF3 ending, could be nice.

I agree with board game. A like the idea of a minigame for earn some money.

[Dintiradan]

Sigh. My BoA scenario is set in Avernum where hard-working crystal miners are trying to get enough money to pay for the trip to the surface. Then I play A4 and find this is similar to Grindstone.

 

Then I come up with the cool idea: convert the barriers into monochrome and use them as fog.

 

JV, stop reading my mind and stealing my ideas!

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head.

[Student of Trinity]

Wear an AFDB.

[Goldengirl]

For some reason I've been hooked on the shapers creating a time travel device in the beggining.A rebel and a loyalist get through in the beggining. You decide whether you're the rebel or loyalist. You go through the portal and arrive on Sucia Island, the time is at the beggining of GF1. Your job if you are the loyalist is to kill everyone. A side thing would be to spare the Obeyers. If you're the rebel your job is to kill the loyalist, BUT Jeff probably has the plot worked out already. Another thing I just remembered is that before GF3 came out I said something about a a Shaper Partner. I'd like to think that Jeff actually liked my idea and put it into GF3. Of coursewith some changes.

[Nick Ringer]

I was about to laugh with you, Pizzaking, but then noticed the serious tone of your post.

 

Minigames would give GF4 a Zelda-ish feel, but in my opinion, the Zelda series is the best out there.

 

Something about Shaping has to be done. It's not terrible, but a little too easy to "cheat." Shaping skills only affect the Creation's Shaping, so as Micawber pointed out, it's simple to equip a few nice Shaping artifacts (like the Black Crystal Talisman or Essence Chitin) and make powerful creations. When you get your fighting gear back on, your skill may be insufficient to even make the same Creation, much less a well-supported one.

 

Another thing I want to explain -- Mr. Vogel don't let me put words in your mouth -- I've noticed people complaining, "how come Lord Rahul can make as many creations as he wants and I can only make seven? I'm way stronger than him!" Or someone mentioned that "serviles can't be independent because they keep essence from the Shapers." These aren't like laws of the Geneforge universe. It's playability. General Greiner's army can send creations two miles west, according to one of the Shapers there. But for you, that'd be sending it into another zone, and it'd be largely impossible to implement this.

 

There are workarounds to such problems (if they can so be called) I thought up, and will probably be regarded as stupid ideas. I'm going to list them anyway, for those interested:

 

Losing essence from Shaping is alright, but the inability to get it back, I find just ridiculous. I would lower essence capacity for all classes, and not let the Creation "leech" any essence. Shaping is described as tiring; completely depleting spell energy would be reasonable. However, this motivates players to shape hugely powerful creations with loaded skill points, then refill essence and repeat. See below for remedy.

 

Some creations are described as particularly willful, like battle alphas, and later on, drayks and eyebeasts (On a side note I don't like the idea of Shaping drakons, much less controlling them). Shouldn't these Creations be more likely to "go rogue?" Why not assign each Creation a "rougue tendency" variable? Say a battle alpha has a rogue tendency of 10. For each skill point the alpha gains, its rogue tendency will increase a point. The Shaper gets a "Creation control" variable that determines whether or not you can control a battle alpha. Suppose your Battle Shaping skill is 4 and your Leadership skill is 6. A reasonable formula is ctrl = btl*ldr; this scenario gives the Shaper a Creation Control of 24. You can make a battle alpha with up to 14 skill points. As soon as your cumulative creation rogue tendency exceeds your creation control, the toughest creation has a good chance of going rogue at any given time. It may motivate your other creations. This would, however, make Leadership much more valuable. Maybe a new Creation Control skill could be implemented. This would even solve the "cheating" with Shaping artifacts; you'd have to keep them on, or you'll get beaten up by wild rogues.

 

Other, unrelated comments:

 

Classes (guardian, shaper, agent). General skill groups (fighting, Shaping, spellcasting). As is, we have three preset choices:

-Good at fighting and some Shaping

-Good at Shaping and some spellcasting

-Good at spellcasting and some fighting

I'd love an agent that's good at shaping, or a guardian with magic skills. Having weaknesses (read "certain, more expensive skills") is not for me. GF4 may look like this (again, I'm speaking for myself only):

-Warrior: good at battle

-Mage: good at magic

-Servile: good at espionage*

*leadership, mechanics, luck, maybe even stealth since Jeff mentioned it

And any class can learn to Shape eventually, since you apparently can't play as a Shaper.

 

Inspired in the last 30 seconds, a stealth skill would be good for stealing stuff. Larceny is too easy if you can get someone to leave (I always crowd the Barzite shopkeepers with Creations, then shut the door behind them and loot the place). People should probably notice if you rob them. Unless, of course, you're really stealthy. Then they can just be like usual, "what the hell happened?" So far, MOST people don't notice if you walk into their bedroom, then walk out a few pounds heavier. That's assuming too much stealth. Or if you're super stealthy, you can kill people without an alarm going off or turning a town hostile. I mean, realistically if you stab sick, quiet Torsten to death in his little house the whole town can't notice ... heh-heh-heh. Your stealth might enable you to overhear conversations, through walls, or to not be noticed by guards. All that good stuff.

 

How about class advantages? Like, if you're a warrior type, you could get selected for a quest, "Get rid of rogues" because you seem more capable. But a servile might not get much respect from other people. Or perhaps a mage may be sent to look for ingredients. Your class should probably also determine your starting location ... a servile, born intelligent but still able to choose rebel or loyal ... a mage, in a laboratory or school ... a soldier, in an army or garrison. All eventually coming to the same place, but maybe only your class can visit your starting point. It adds replay value, of course.

 

Crafting. I love that. Make a skill for it, like mechanics. Have it deduct spell energy and essence. But the wands and stuff were a little too trivial to be worth making. Crafting your own canisters would be pretty cool ... for 10 crystals, a ring of puresteel, and a chunk of essence, you should be able to level up in an ability (like a spell or creation).

 

Stationary creations. Even if it's not realtime, making some spawners, turrets, or spincores in enemy territory should have some debilitating effect on the enemy. Didn't Phariton make pylons? You could defend a city with them.

 

Wild Creations. Largely the same deal as above. Remember the servant mind in GF1 that was Creating things to harass Zhass-Uss? What about creating a bunch of crazed thahd mutants and loosing them into the wild? It shouldn't affect any of your ability to Shape loyal creations, since as soon as the wild creation is out there, you don't have to worry about it. Comparable to Litalia's efforts with the warped spawners and rogues and stuff.

 

Pack animal. That "Create Ornk" in GF1 could be more than a joke. Someone -- I forget who -- suggested this very thing elsewhere. I'm usually frustrated anyway by having to drop off items. As long as you don't take them out to use in battle, ornk would be good pack animals. But you'd have to keep them fed or something, so it doesn't get too easy.

 

"That's all I have to say about that"

-- Forrest Gump

[The Ripper]

Along the lines of stealth...

 

You know those unstable reptiles that follow you and bite you until they explode usually causing a deadly chain reaction?

 

What if you could create an "Unstable Assasin"? you would tell it to target a servile/shper/whatever, and it would walk up to him/her and blow up... silently so no one around would notice. hopefully the damage is enough to kill them, otehrwise you'll have to send more than one. And if you fail to kill them in one shot of course, everyone becomes aware of your actions.

 

I apologize if this was already posted in one of the above TLDR's

[Dikiyoba]

A silent explosion. Hmm...

 

Dikiyoba.

[Zephyr Tempest]

I just remembered that I once had a Geneforge dream (creepy, huh?) where there were good and evil creations that actually evolved the more experience they got. I remember a tiny, wimpy, pure EVIL slug-thing that turned into a hulking death juggernaught if it got enough experience. There were also human companions who could shape, as well. A very interesting dream (which was NOT inspired by Pokemon. I have been clean for a long time).

 

But, would it be possible for your creations to actually evolve instead of just getting improved by you?

 

That would certainly be an interesting feature to add. I also like the idea of exploding assassins.

 

As for canisters, I think they should have a Skribbane effect, as in if you haven't used one for a long time, you begin sweating profusely and lose some health and spell energy. But the effects of the canisters themselves shouldn't be reduced.

[Lilith]

ZT, you've clearly been watching Pokemon too much lately, and by "too much" I mean "at all".

[Bubb9]

damn I think these dreams are contagious I just had ne that involved EVE online and GF.....scary

[The Ripper]

^ Doesn't anyone have normal dreams? Like, just a dream about playing melee for hours?

[Dikiyoba]

No. I had a dream about my school getting blown up by aliens and a dream about a vampire in Wizard of Oz, but no melee fighting dreams.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Jaid]

Quote:

Originally written by The Ripper:
Along the lines of stealth...

You know those unstable reptiles that follow you and bite you until they explode usually causing a deadly chain reaction?

What if you could create an "Unstable Assasin"? you would tell it to target a servile/shper/whatever, and it would walk up to him/her and blow up... silently so no one around would notice. hopefully the damage is enough to kill them, otehrwise you'll have to send more than one. And if you fail to kill them in one shot of course, everyone becomes aware of your actions.

I apologize if this was already posted in one of the above TLDR's

you can already make pyroroamers. it is my understanding that if they are absorbed, they explode as if they had died normally. apparently, the explosion does not activate combat in any way either.

[The Ripper]

^ Awesome glitch, if true.

[Bubb9]

probly will be fixed in G4

[Grain of Salt]

Another futile request...

 

Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

 

Rebels

 

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.

2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

 

Loyalists

 

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.

2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

 

I realize that there shouldn't be an easy option, but maybe the Awakened path could be much harder but more morally fufilling. In G3, there was a shopkeeper in South End who clearly supported Awakened views, but the idea wasn't carried to the rest of the game.

 

On an unrelated note, can we get rid of the creation limit and put some minor creations in? I wanna have an army of worms!

[Hawk King]

..... I just read the topic and my reaction was rather like this

 

First five minutes: Cooooooooooooool G4.

First ten minutes: Cooool G4 this forum is great!

First twenty minutes:....... Wow these people are just plain strange.

Present: .................Alright Im gonna back away slowly "back's away slowly then at safe distance run's" about ten second's pass "comes running back" I can't help it G4! G4! G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!.... Alright Im okay, somebody give me a Monster energy drink NOW ....

 

But yeah G4 look's great really, errr....... Yeah..... well bye

[ThirdParty]

Quote:

Micawber wrote:
At the moment there are too many special artifacts that you equip for making creations and then remove immediately. This feels a bit artificial. The player's investment of skill points in shaping skills should be worth more.

I agree. I think it ought to work like this:

All Fire Creations in the party should get one bonus level for each Fire Shaping skill the Shaper has, not to exceed the Fire Shaping skill the Shaper had when he created it. (And also for Battle and Magic creations and shaping skills, mutatis mutandis.)

This would be just like the current system except that if you use an artifact to shape a higher-level creation and then remove the artifact, your creation loses the bonus until you put the artifact back on or otherwise gain in the shaping skill. The current dilemma between keeping an experienced creation or making a new one with your better skills would not be affected, and there would still be reason to set up a private "shaping laboratory" somewhere with artifacts (you might put on an artifact before shaping, even though you didn't intend to use the artifact later, if you anticipated eventually training in that skill and wanted the creation to be able to grow when you did so), but there would also be a reason to wear bonus-to-shaping artifacts into battle.

Quote:

Nick Ringer wrote:
I'd love an agent that's good at shaping, or a guardian with magic skills.

It would be nice if all six logical combinations of strengths and weaknesses were available, instead of just three. (I too wish for the combinations you mention. The magic user with shaping skills would especially play differently from any of the current classes.)

Or at least, since Jeff is replacing the Agent-Guardian-Shaper choice with Servile-(Battle Creature?)-Human anyway, he'd might as well at least switch to the three combinations of strengths and weaknesses that we haven't seen yet; it would be a nice touch, and an easy-to-implement tweak that would leave GF4 with slightly different gameplay from the previous GF's.

Quote:

Wonko The Sane wrote:
Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

Rebels

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.
2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

Loyalists

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.
2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

I realize that there shouldn't be an easy option, but maybe the Awakened path could be much harder but more morally fufilling.

I disagree completely.

There's already a "harder but more fulfilling" option for those who want to take the harder but morally better path: not using canisters.

I like being forced to take sides in the moral dilemma. Should we share power with all, knowing that many will misuse it and cause others to suffer? Or shall we try to control the power, knowing that the chosen few will lord over everyone else? Freedom versus Safety; Capitalism versus Communism; Democracy versus Stability. It's a major issue facing real-world political communities, and the game is richer for exploring it. To make a miracle solution that the virtuous can pick misses the point, even if it's harder than the uncomfortable answers--in the real world, honest, well-intentioned people can disagree, there being pros and cons on both sides; nobody has a moral high ground.

I don't trust my government, but I trust even less the gun-toting anarchist types that share my distrust of the government. If I wanted to get away from such problems into a fictional world where good and evil are obvious, I'd play Avernum. When I play Geneforge, it's for the sake of thinking about them from a different perspective.

[Grain of Salt]

After actually finishing G3 and seeing that ending (no-canister rebel) I agree with you somewhat. Litalia seemed much more human at the end, and the rebel and shaper causes were both justified.

 

I just wish that the reasons for either side were presented to you when you made the decision. At the actual Creator, it was a question of whether to plunge an island into war or not. I would prefer that Litalia and perhaps Greiner be there, each trying to convince me that their side was the best right before I made the decision to repair or not.

Still, an insignificant quip in a phenomenal game, and I hope G4 is a lot like it.

 

(Another engine request: In G3, if a caster knew Essence Orbs, all he would do was cast it at you. No other spells besides scripted events. Can we have a bit of balance? Maybe some mental spells and basic blessings too?)

[Student of Trinity]

When last we left our Awakened heroes, in G2, their moral high ground was in a mudslide. Tuldaric's augmentations and mass Drakon enslavement were the sect's only hope for survival, and he was already a good hike down Barzahl's road away from humanity.

 

But that's why I would like to see an Awakened sect return in some form, perhaps along with an 'enlightened Shapers' sect led by someone like Khyryk. Faced with the two extremes of Rebels and Shaper Council, it's natural to seek a middle way; but the problem of shaping's power is not resolved by such good intentions. The middle way is extremely problematic. Being caught in the middle, it has to fight; fighting, it becomes either - or both - of its enemies.

 

Far from being a morally easy 'white hat' option, an Awakened plotline could present the sharpest moral dilemmas of all. And for me it is seeing the limitations of the 'moderate' options, as in G2, that makes the more extreme alternatives in G3 make sense.

[The Ripper]

Quote:

Originally written by Wonko The Sane:

2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

If you've never role-played the jerk, then you've never role-played.

On an unrelated note, can we get rid of the creation limit and put some minor creations in? I wanna have an army of worms!

Answer = no. Game engines have limits. pushing those limits = lag. lag = bad.

But, as for storyline, the more endings the better. I was disappointed with G3 a bit, having only the two sides (mind you, different combinations of endings.)

But still, more endings = re-playability

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Wonko The Sane:
Another futile request...

Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

Rebels

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.
2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

Loyalists

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.
2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

So, what are the Awanakeds beliefs? A middle-way?

Anyway, in GF3 you can be Rebel and Loyal:
I never beneficiated the Shapers training because I always treat outsiders and serviles well, but I always killed rogue creations (except the cryodryaks-mother and his children) and obedy at Lord Rahul.
And I always used canisters.

[Grain of Salt]

EDIT: Double post

[Grain of Salt]

Play G1 or G2. The Awakened believe that the shapers should treat creations as equals, not superiors or inferiors. They are basically rebels that don't run around obliterating cities at will.

 

Of course, they don't have much of a hope because the shapers are completely intolerant of any creation that isn't their loyal servant.

 

(P.S: Why do you have Thuryl's leaving statement in your sig? Just curious.)

[Goldengirl]

It's obvious that if the Awakened have any chance of survival then the Shapers (or atleast their beliefs) have got to go. Also I believe that the canisters can't be allowed to live if the Awakened are to. The Awakened can't be so passive, they've got to resatart the Shapers after winning the war and set them straight from the beggining.

[Dallerdin with a custom moniker.]

But if the Awakened stopped being passive, they would either become that which they hated - they'd have to fight uncaring about casualties like the rebels or dominate others like the loyalists or even both - or else get beaten. In other words, the Awakened only survive if they do not fight.

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Wonko The Sane:
(P.S: Why do you have Thuryl's leaving statement in your sig? Just curious.)

For remember him and his decision. He was a great member and a nice moderator.

Well, it isn't a particular reason, though. Or maybe it was, but when Thuryl leaves I was very shocked, and when I saw this statement I immediately put in my signaure, guided by instinct. Sorry, this may be not much clear, (in fact ISN'T clear) but isn't clear for me too.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Dallerdin with a custom moniker.:
But if the Awakened stopped being passive, they would either become that which they hated - they'd have to fight uncaring about casualties like the rebels or dominate others like the loyalists or even both - or else get beaten. In other words, the Awakened only survive if they do not fight.

Exactly. If they fight they lose their morals. If they don't fight then they'll die. They have to fight the Shapers and Rebels. Kill them both off and restart the Shapers under Awakened beliefs. That is the only way I see for them to win.

[Grain of Salt]

Quote:

Originally written by GIFTSking:
Exactly. If they fight they lose their morals. If they don't fight then they'll die. They have to fight the Shapers and Rebels. Kill them both off and restart the Shapers under Awakened beliefs. That is the only way I see for them to win.

Huh?
Killing off the rebels and the shapers would certainly cause the Awakened to lose their morals. They also definitely don't have the manpower for that. The only way I see for the Awakened to prevail would be to convince both Shapers and Rebels, after they've both beaten the opposite side to death, to embrace their beliefs as a solution to neverending war.

I would imagine the Awakened path to be involving a lot of diplomacy and stealth, perhaps the asassination of extreme rebels or extreme shapers.
Or they could recruit some shapers and set up a "servile heaven" in a remote location, where everyone is equal and serviles have power. This would probably be easier than trying to force peace.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Wonko the Sane:

 

Quote:

Or they could recruit some shapers and set up a "servile heaven" in a remote location, where everyone is equal and serviles have power. This would probably be easier than trying to force peace.

That was the Awakened's plan in G2. It tended to work out for them when Dikiyoba played G2, but apparently that's not the ending that was chosen to lead to G3.

[Goldengirl]

I've said this multiple times, the Awakened would have to kill hte Shapers and Rebels. The reason why is by now all sides are set on their beliefs. If not then they would probably be Awakened. Maybe if the Awakened sell Rebel secrets to the Shapers adn vice versa they oculd weaken both sides enough to wipe them out. Then as I said they could rebuild the world around Awakened beliefs. Bottom line, THERE ARE TOO MANY EXTREMISTS TO KILL WITHOUT WAR!

 

EDIT: Just a little question, what ending is GF3 based on? I just want to know the side.

[Glafna]

I have a few suggestions for G4

 

-Maybe Awakened can come back, but under a leader that seems to follow thier morals, but it actually a shapeshifting shaper or creation who wants to takes the power of the geneforge(if its at the end of this) and no matter what path you take, you have to kill him/her/it

 

-Another choice from the origional 3. Seperatists. A bunch of Shapers, civilians, and others who want to seperate from the shaper laws, but keep shaping and keep thier control over creations. A (or close to) Pure Evil sect. You join them, you have to force your way to the top, and defend it untill the end of the game. There would be shapers with creations, gaurdians, agents, whtvr, calling out a challange, then attacking. But if your in charge, you get things for dirt cheap at Seperatist settlements.

 

- Another kind of shaping, Undead shaping. You create zombies, skeletons, and the final one could be a lich or vampire or other powerful undead.

 

I think my ideas are pretty good, any feedback?

[Goldengirl]

There's a porblem with the undead thing. That's not Shaping, it's necromancy. You don't Shape the undead, you ressurect them. That is the reason it can't be shaper magic, and also in Jeff's games, necromancy is frowned upon.

Also, IF the Awakened come back then it would be a lot coller if they weren't evil or whatever.

Lastly, the Separists, what the heck are there goals? In other words, explain more about them.

[Grain of Salt]

Glafna-

 

Your ideas are interesting, but probably not feasible. I don't like the idea of a common enemy no matter what side you choose, and I would enjoy seeing the Awakened actually accomplish something, for once. Vampires and anything beyond shades are probably (and hopefully) not going to make it into any Geneforge. That is the domain of Avernum. It also lacks a theme. Observe:

 

Magic Shaping: Mostly missile attacks with additional effects.

Battle Shaping: Melee damage and lots of hitpoints.

Fire Shaping: A balance between missile and melee.

 

Undead shaping would fluctuate wildly, vampires and skeletons being melee but liches being a missile-with-effects type. There is no central theme to undead besides undead-ness.

 

Separatists: So these are basically rebels that want to shape freely but care nothing for creation's rights? This sounds very similiar to the Barzites, but I have never played G2 beyond the demo, so I don't know. What would be the motivation for joining the sect?

 

Another question I just thought up: If you're playing a servile in G4, and you can shape, how on earth would you join the Shapers? They would kill you on sight. And why would you join the Shapers? It'd be like "Hi, I want to join you and risk my own life fighting my own kind so that me and my race can be opressed."

[The Ripper]

Quote:

Originally written by GIFTSking:
Bottom line, THERE ARE TOO MANY EXTREMISTS TO KILL WITHOUT WAR!

No, look. Here's what needs to happen. The awakened, takers, and shaper council should send representatives to negote a sort of peace, and write a "Universal Rights Charter", clearly labeling out the roles that shapers, humans, serviles, and (drakes?) shall play. Sure they all have diametrically opposed views, but if they can leran to compromise a little, the world would be a safer, less fun game to play.

[Goldengirl]

Yeah, but who really wants that. The Takers are the rebels now. They're goals are to KILL ALL SHAPERS! Somehow a peace confrence doesn't seem likely. Jeff already told us that this is a war. What's the fun in a peace confrence? They have to battle it out. The Awakened if they could somehow could convert the Shapers, but what are the chances. If the Awakened or Shapers are going to win then the Rebels must die. Also the Rebels WANT war. End of rant.

[Grain of Salt]

I don't think all the rebels have to die. Not every single drakon is bent on the destruction of the shapers. Not every outcast shaper is, either. Orois Blaze in G3 wanted nothing more than to run a sucessful business.

Perhaps after the rebels battle the shapers for a while, after the Council and the Ur-Drakons are dead, the ordinary grunts on each side will stage a massive rebellion against their leaders and then bargain for peace. You can only fight a war for so long before the general populace (in this case human soldiers, serviles, and intelligent battle creations) become tired of it. Orchestrating the rebellion and winning the ensuing battles would be a good Awakened path, I think.

 

(And no one's answered my question. Why and how would an intelligent, shaping-capable servile join the Loyalists?)

 

EDIT: Typo

[Learned Noremac]

Quote:

Originally written by GIFTSking:
Just a little question, what ending is GF3 based on? I just want to know the side.

It seems to be based either on the Loyalist or the Neutral ending. The overall effects of both are more or less the same, so it could be either.

And as for this bit about the Awakened, the fact is, while their ideals of a perfect world are nice, but unrealistic. Even with G2, the Awakened still had to fight(if you do their ending). The fact is, people are unreasonable. War is sometimes unavoidable.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Being Awakened could be possible. Jeff said that he would have an elusive faction. The Awakened sit on the sidelines hiding but growing while watching the rebels and Shapers beat each other up with a well placed assanation or to to keep the fighting going. After both sides are really weak they step in and force peace onto the world.

 

They could be made up of Shapers like Khyrk and Sharon, Serviles like Pinner, Drakons like Orious Blaze & Sholai.