Jump to content

A Few Advance Notes On Geneforge 4


Spidweb

Recommended Posts

Quote:
But no, you will play a mammalian humanoid. I'm not sure I have the guts to design a game where you play something else. I think it would be a tough road to convince a lot of gamers that they want their avatar to be something different.

- Jeff Vogel
Wait...slithzerikai are mammals?

Dikiyoba doesn't particularily like drakons. Or even drayks. Fyoras and cyoras are fine though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 246
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I, for what my opinion's worth, am still waiting for a Geneforge boat that makes me happy. It's a small thing, but I think that a Drayk-boat a la GF1 intro is wicked cool, whereas a stretched Avernum boat is a jarring experience that completely clashes with the rest of the game. Plus, it'd be nice to be able to click a boat to use it, a la trapdoor. (Was this in GF3? I haven't bought it yet.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, good point. All those boats should have heads. And why, if I can learn to make Drayks out of thin air, couldn't I have gotten a canister of Create Boat-creature, and sailed away from Sucia Island the easy way? Maybe you just can't make Boat-creatures that way?

 

This reminds that I would really like to see Jeff clarify the relationship between creations that are born like serviles and some Drayks, creations that are grown in vats, creations that are made out of personal essence on the spot like the PC's, temporary creations like those that feature once or twice in G2 and G3, and shades. I can think of decent rationalizations of all this, which might even suggest some interesting plot points. But I don't mind much how it gets done; I'd just like to see it done somehow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Origanilly written by Dikiyoba:

1. They're too powerful for an avatar.
2. They're arrogant.
3. The idea has been done to death around here.
4. They're not creative or impressive, just powerful.
1. As I have said before, a young, growing Drakon. Like a Teenager Drakon.
2. The ones that are Shaped are...what about the ones that aren't?
3. So?
4. Have you seen a humonoid dragon in any other game?

Quote:
Origanilly written by VCH:

5. Drakons are just slightly too big for most buildings.
5. Teenager Drakon = about 8 feet tall, 1 foot taller than Rahul.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Quote:
But no, you will play a mammalian humanoid. I'm not sure I have the guts to design a game where you play something else. I think it would be a tough road to convince a lot of gamers that they want their avatar to be something different.

- Jeff Vogel
Wait...slithzerikai are mammals?

Dikiyoba doesn't particularily like drakons. Or even drayks. Fyoras and cyoras are fine though.
They definitely aren't, game-wise - there are hatching pools in the city of Lost Bahssikava in Avernum.

I've always felt that rhetorical questions should be answered when possible. :p

Edit: The slithzerikai, naturally. Not the fyoras and cryoras.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep thinking about it.

 

Teenage Drakon? :rolleyes:

 

That has to be the most insipid mind numbing idea I have ever encountered.

 

Really.

 

"It's like, omigod, like, you know, I have to go out and change the world and stuff. Like, you know? But I got this pimple and my girlfriend dumped me because she said I was like, you know, some whiny emo loser. And I was like, so are like so totally like wrong and stuff. And it's like I have all this peer pressure and my body keeps changing and like my voice keeps cracking. Like, omigod and stuff. It's like so hard to be like a teenager right now. And I so gotta go and work my shift at the food court at the mall. It's like, life sucks you know. If only I could rebel and be different just like everybody else and stuff, and change the world. Omigod."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Arancaytar the Grey:
They definitely aren't, game-wise - there are hatching pools in the city of Lost Bahssikava in Avernum.
Well, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. A few mammals are hatched from eggs. But does anyone remember a female slith having breasts (i.e. mammary glands -> mammal)? I can't, but that might just be because I wasn't paying attention.

And maybe in GF8 you should play a teenage mutant ninja drakon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
But does anyone remember a female slith having breasts (i.e. mammary glands -> mammal)?
Strangely enough, the best defining characteristic of a mammal is that it has hair. All of the others are somewhat hard to check (sweat glands, baby teeth - damn, I must be a pretty poor ecology student if I can't remember more than that... laugh ).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Origanilly written by SOT:
Just as my annoyance was reaching threshold, I start to admire the persistence.
I admire your ability to admire someone you find annoying.

Quote:
Origanilly written by VCH:
Why not play a Vahanatai warrior? Maybe a giant bird or something.
Why not? I woudn't want to because I would consider it boring but otherwise I can't find anything wrong with that except that it would be hard to introduce flight into the game.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally by Kelandon:

 

Quote:
Well, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. A few mammals are hatched from eggs. But does anyone remember a female slith having breasts (i.e. mammary glands -> mammal)? I can't, but that might just be because I wasn't paying attention.
Sliths are indeed reptiles, since they are described as "lizard men" in the Za-Khazi Run.

 

As for female sliths, the only thing noticeably sets them apart is the fact that one slith character graphic in BoA wears pink and another one wears a purple "shirt." Even those aren't definitive.

 

Dikiyoba wonders how much it would take to manually replace a shaper/guardian/agent graphic with a drakon graphic, just to make I_am_a_Minotaur happy and be able to move on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Sliths are indeed reptiles, since they are described as "lizard men" in the Za-Khazi Run.
Well, that's the question, isn't it? Are they men that resemble lizards (as the term "lizard men" would imply) or lizards that resemble men (less likely but also possible from "lizard men"). Men that resemble lizards could well be mammals — more men than lizard, if you will — but lizards that resemble men could be reptiles.

I'm inclined to think that they'd need four-chambered hearts and other internal structures not common in reptiles in order to function the way they appear to. I mean, a slith without a proper mammal-like cardiovascular system wouldn't stand a chance in a pitched battle against humans, but a slith with a more advanced cardiovascular system (like that of birds) would slaughter humans outright.

In other words, I think they're more like people that look like lizards than they are lizards that look like people. But seriously, do none of the slith females have breasts? I have to look this up now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Origanilly written by Dikiyoba:
Dikiyoba wonders how much it would take to manually replace a shaper/guardian/agent graphic with a drakon graphic, just to make I_am_a_Minotaur happy and be able to move on?
Its not just that.... I would like a story that interworks the fact that you are a drakon into the plot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sliths are like dinosaurs. They're reptiles, except that they aren't quite reptiles. They're a little too advanced to be plain, ordinary reptiles. Thus, they can have an upright structure, a four-chambered heart, and great intelligence while still being reptiles.

 

There's no proof the nephil have nipples either, but the fur makes it pretty hard to tell.

 

Dikiyoba wonders why this conversation has to occur in the Geneforge section. It's a great discussion, but slightly misplaced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*reads the whole thread*

 

Yayness! I may actually figure a way to work my Servile-halfling into G4!

 

...what? I've had the idea of a Shaper/servile-halfling since I played as an Agent and spotted Xander in G2, sue me. Though that would be cool to see...somehow.

 

Weather is an interesting idea, although if it plays too much of a part in the game, I'm going to become reminded of the newer Pokemon games...no comment.

 

Creations...need ideas? *has a picture next to her* Let's just say that I had too much fun playing G1 especially after getting the idea for a creation of my own.

 

Speaking of creations, it would be cool if before G5 ever comes or even before G4 is completely done, that a contest comes out where everyone who wants to enter submits a creation idea and that the Top 3 (or however many are picked) become part of the Geneforge series, either as creatable creations or as an NPC. Or even a non-creatable creation that you can adopt into your team, like you could with creations/people in G2/G3.

 

...for a newbie, I have put way too much thought into this...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Nick Ringer:
Day and night would be a really good addition. Also, to affect gameplay, I think the PC should have to sleep and eat. (etc. snip)
I think this would work best if the player could choose whether to heed it. Say, for example, if sleeping and eating improve efficiency for a time, e.g. noticing the approach of foes at a greater distance, acting a little sooner in combat, a temporary extra few points in luck... That way there's no constraint, but an added dimension if a player wants it. Players who don't want to bother with it can ignore it without frustration.

Spiderweb's past games have played to realism in much this style. If anyone can do a game with night and day, sleep, hunger, etc without ruining the fun, I think Spiderweb can.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
This reminds that I would really like to see Jeff clarify the relationship between creations that are born like serviles and some Drayks, creations that are grown in vats, creations that are made out of personal essence on the spot like the PC's, temporary creations like those that feature once or twice in G2 and G3, and shades.[/QB]
When I started out in G1, I wondered if I would eventually gain the ability to do something like absorption to rogues. Not for any personal essence benefit, but as a way to avoid combat. Slurp! Problem solved!

Now, I *like* combat, so I wouldn't be particularly thrilled by such a feature. But the question is an interesting one, as if one living shaper can undo another living shaper's work, things like practical jokes, rivalries, sabotage, and war could result in an interesting arms race of measures and counter-measures. It would be kind of nice to have an answer, even if it's just an offhand remark like you can't un-create a creation you didn't make yourself. Maybe they're imprinted with your essence, so only you can unlock it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe absorbing other creations in only possible for advance shapers, but since in all the genefore games so far, you start of as a novice, and only learn spells and whatnot, and not actually the regular things the shapers would be teaching you, and so you can't absorb other creation. Also, maybe you could absorb the artila in GF3 because it was a fairly basic creation, and for something with a strong mind like a servile, you might not be able to do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I_am_a_Minotaur pleaded for reasons to exclude Drakons as PC's in GF4. Dikiyoba gave several, which I_am_a_Minotaur subsequently shot down with juvenile retorts.

 

So my question is: are we just fueling the argument here? That wouldn't be necessarily wrong. The alternative being that I_am_a_Minotaur is seriously campaigning for the teenage Drakon plot. Because being a humongous reptile just isn't enough; you'd have to get an age-based demographic, too.

 

Don't let me put words in Dikiyoba's mouth, but I'm pretty sure his "giant spider" suggestion was, in fact, sarcastic. Even Jeff has denied the Drakon playability at this point. What more could we want?

 

Incidentally, some mammals lay eggs (only the duckbilled platypus and spiny anteater). Might Slith not also have nipples?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All quotes originally by Nick Ringer:

 

Quote:
So my question is: are we just fueling the argument here?
Not anymore. The argument over drakons is done in this topic unless I_am_a_Minotaur or someone else brings it back up.

 

Quote:
Don't let me put words in Dikiyoba's mouth, but I'm pretty sure his "giant spider" suggestion was, in fact, sarcastic.
I was aiming for mild humor rather than sarcasm, but it certainly wasn't intended to be taken seriously. If by some chance arachnid shaping does appear in G4, well, I won't complain.

 

Quote:
Might Slith not also have nipples?

If you can find them, then sliths are mammals. Until then, Dikiyoba is convinced that slithzerakai are highly evolved reptiles due to their egg-laying, lack of hair, and difficulty regulating body temperature.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
i think some spider like thing is cool, just not arachnid shaping, that would make too many shaping possibilities....
I think that the more there are shaping possibilities, he more fun it's playing. But it takes so **** long to make. So that's a good idea in some ways, bad idea in some ways.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the normal NPC guardians should be stronger. They are supposed to be elite human warriors but guards are stronger than them. I hope that Rahul gives his position to another guardian and with Alwan moves to the mainland to build a huge fortress. Greta should become one of the few Shapers allied with the rebels. You should be a human that is starting as a guard but has been augmented to be able to shape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

one thing I was disapointed in is that(this might have been brought up before) you cant really experiment with shaping like lets take a look at(this is on a bigger scale than wat I was thinking) that golem in darkstone core. It was an experiment that went wrong yes but just the fact you can experiment with the designs of your creations to make them better and stronger(not like the adding essence to the bubbles) but maybe changing like the color of it and changing its abilitys(pending on your skill level)

 

I'm not much for spiders but I love the artilla

 

P.S. I am a minotaur try going to preferences and then changing the level :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
origanally written by bubb9:
P.S. I am a minotaur try going to preferences and then changing the level
I have put it on torment and the only guardian that was ever hard was Rahul. By yourself about 20 can be a problem but think.... an army is attacking a fortress with 100 glahks(spell?) and only 20 guardians stand in the way......

I hope minotaurs appear. They could be a result of trying to make a fighting ornk (making it a humanoid with a lot more brains, size and strength) but they made it to smart and by the time the revolted there were to many of them to suppress the uprising so the Shapers were forced to let them go.

P.S. Incase you didn't know the Guardians would get slaughtered.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A really obvious comment, but I just can't remember seeing it, and it should be on record.

 

There gotta be canisters, and they've gotta be somehow dangerous. Probably the single cleverest thing about Geneforge is that as a player you are just about as ravenous for canisters as the characters are supposed to be, so you feel a personal stake in the theme.

 

What would be very cool would be to make the price of canister use real, within the game, rather than just an effect in the ending text. Using too many canisters, or not enough, should have a few big effects on what you can achieve in the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, canisters are organic.

 

Time should mean more in the game. I think that canisters should spoil after a certain time if nobody uses them. Or go bad somehow. The new canisters can not possibly be made up to the old shaper standards like those found around the original geneforge made in perfect laboratory conditions. The canisters are being made in makeshift labs by underlings... Creations and maybe serviles, and this leaves a lot more room for error.

 

Spoiled canisters might make you a bit more insane or perhaps make you sick. Like Hoge got sick. Skin peeling, constant trickling loss of health requiring you to constantly suck down healing pods, and a loss of physical movement perhaps due to extreme pain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D. Vlish, that sounds good. Maybe thats how you join the mysterious 3rd team (sick of shapers/rebels and their twisted creations/canisters which have screwed up your life).

 

I reckon you should be able to make fading creations. They would have low HP, die after a set amount of turns, and be cheap on essence (so that you could make several of them.

 

I also think that creation slots should be gained every, say, 6 levels. This means you don't have armies of fyora's at the start. Because, according to the storyline, they would probably go rogue.

 

I like the idea of variations on creations. Give them acid claws for 40 essence, uses up skill points, done in towns like upgrading Alwans blade (by a shaper), etc.

 

Long live GIFTS!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
There gotta be canisters, and they've gotta be somehow dangerous. Probably the single cleverest thing about Geneforge is that as a player you are just about as ravenous for canisters as the characters are supposed to be, so you feel a personal stake in the theme.
Actually, they don't always have to be dangerous. In G2 (and maybe some in G3 too? Can't remember exactly) there are people who were using them and not going insane. It'd be cool to play a character who isn't driven insane by them.

Though I wonder if the servile characters will be able to use them at all. So far, using a canister is fatal for a servile. But perhaps now some serviles will be re-shaped enough to take it, or canisters will be made for serviles. Hm...considering that it is about genes, it'd really need to be the canisters that are changed to accomodate serviles, not change serviles to accomodate the canisters. Otherwise, you'd have to just make the serviles into humans.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Feathin Silyar:
Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
There gotta be canisters, and they've gotta be somehow dangerous. Probably the single cleverest thing about Geneforge is that as a player you are just about as ravenous for canisters as the characters are supposed to be, so you feel a personal stake in the theme.
Actually, they don't always have to be dangerous. In G2 (and maybe some in G3 too? Can't remember exactly) there are people who were using them and not going insane. It'd be cool to play a character who isn't driven insane by them.

Though I wonder if the servile characters will be able to use them at all. So far, using a canister is fatal for a servile. But perhaps now some serviles will be re-shaped enough to take it, or canisters will be made for serviles. Hm...considering that it is about genes, it'd really need to be the canisters that are changed to accomodate serviles, not change serviles to accomodate the canisters. Otherwise, you'd have to just make the serviles into humans.
Well, the first quest for a servile will probably be "bring me X, Y, and two of Z, and I can make a device for you that will allow you to use canisters."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The interesting danger in canisters is the slowly growing paranoia and megalomania. The munchkinism typical of RPG players makes our characters do anything for one more skill point, as they grow into the gods they are foredestined to become. Anything keeping us from the canisters, whether it's a warped creation or an uppity servile, is just a bunch of pixels, after all. Geneforge pulls a judo move on munchkinism, by making it the main role-playing issue.

 

The risk of outright bad canisters might be worth adding, for atmosphere, but it won't really affect the game much, because we will just save-load around them. Canisters with benefits and penalties combined would make for interesting dilemmas. But the deeper interest, for me, would be in canisters that are as good as Barzahl's best, but whose use affects game events that players care about. I could be really torn between, say, being able to help an Awakened-like sympathetic sect, and getting Aura of Flames. If the Aura of Flames canister tipped me into a plotline where my role in the Awakened became tragic, this would be really interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see I chose the wrong three weeks to ignore the Geneforge forum.

 

I'm really excited to hear Jeff's plans. Everything he's said suggests he's approaching GF4 with a dynamic attitude, where rules are broken, strange new ideas are released, and "good enough" gets embellished until it becomes "whoa, cool." This is the attitude that has brought us the most engaging game-worlds and stories, like GF1, E2, and Nethergate. Huzzah!

 

I am thrilled to hear that there will be returning NPCs. (I'm rooting for Khyryk myself, but I'll be happy as long as it's not just the drakons.) I am elated to hear that there will be an actual war. The Empire War in E/A2 has got to be one of the best-implemented plot devices I've seen in a game. And I am completely euphoric that there's a servile PC option. It has been more than ten years since Jeff last cracked open a new non-human character option. HUZZAH!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
The interesting danger in canisters is the slowly growing paranoia and megalomania. The munchkinism typical of RPG players makes our characters do anything for one more skill point, as they grow into the gods they are foredestined to become. Anything keeping us from the canisters, whether it's a warped creation or an uppity servile, is just a bunch of pixels, after all. Geneforge pulls a judo move on munchkinism, by making it the main role-playing issue.

The risk of outright bad canisters might be worth adding, for atmosphere, but it won't really affect the game much, because we will just save-load around them. Canisters with benefits and penalties combined would make for interesting dilemmas. But the deeper interest, for me, would be in canisters that are as good as Barzahl's best, but whose use affects game events that players care about. I could be really torn between, say, being able to help an Awakened-like sympathetic sect, and getting Aura of Flames. If the Aura of Flames canister tipped me into a plotline where my role in the Awakened became tragic, this would be really interesting.
Use to many canisters and you begin killing serviles that annoy you. It happens. You lose control of your rage and just start killing.

This could affect your standing with the Awakened or like group.

Always have a small but increasing percentage chance of just going bananas with every servile interaction after using canisters.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...