A Few Advance Notes On Geneforge 4

[Spidweb]

I've been spending a lot of time of late, when not debugging Avernum 4 for Windows, sketching out the plot and world for Geneforge 4 and designing some interface stuff. Here's a little advance info, for general interest.

 

All of this is subject to change. Of course.

 

I want the Mac version to be out this year. It will, like Avernum 4, run at 1024 x 768 resolution. The days of our 800 x 600 games are gone forever.

 

I am focusing heavily on improved animations and spell effects. There will be a greater variety of effects, and they will be prettier.

 

Since the end of Geneforge 3, the rebellion against the Shapers has begun. You will play rebels, not Shapers, though you will develop shaping abilities early in the game. Without shaping, it's not Geneforge.

 

At this point, your character can be a human or a servile. There will be three character classes that take the role of Shaper/Agent/Guardian. I really like how that set works.

 

The skill list will stay the same, most likely, as I think it works very well. There will probably be 3 new creations and 8 new spells.

 

There will be three overall factions/sets of endings, but one of them is more hidden than the others.

 

A number of characters from Geneforge 3 will return.

 

I want the game to have many more scripted events and big battles. It's a war, and I want you to be mixed up in it.

 

I've never been entirely happy with how mines and traps work, so I'm tinkering with that. I want to find a way for Tool Use heavy zones to be a more fun experience.

 

I want to rework stealth so it's clearer what's going on and when a creature can see you.

 

I want to implement weather. It won't affect play so much, but it'll be pretty.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Kelandon]

Several things about this make me happy:

 

* New creations and new spells — in this case, more is almost certain to be better

 

* Big battles — one of my favorite combats of all SW games is the attack on the Ziggurat in A2

 

* Weather? Strange, but it sounds good

 

I look forward to seeing what ends up coming out of this.

[Dikiyoba]

Yay!

 

Dikiyoba's reaction subject to change.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Yes!

 

I wonder what the new creations will be....... do any of you have any ideas? I haven't come up with one.

 

EDIT: What if the Shapers try to make minotaurs(with a different name) tto fight the drakons but they rebel and have a huge Empire built. They are sort of like the Drayks because they are to smart but they rebel because they don't like to be slaves.

 

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Maybe you are a rebel Minotaur!

 

EDIT 2: Don't threaten me with an un-sellable trowel or i'll threaten you with an un-sellable brick.

 

Can someone explain to me why minotaurs are such a bad idea? Nobody's told me yet.

[Dikiyoba]

It's not about the Minotaurs at Spiderweb Software. It's about the giant spiders. Too bad there haven't been any in the Geneforge series. At least, not yet.

 

Dikiyoba.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

I'd rather have Minotaurs than Giant Spiders.

[Spidweb]

"It's not about the Minotaurs at Spiderweb Software. It's about the giant spiders. Too bad there haven't been any in the Geneforge series. At least, not yet."

 

In my very very early conceptions of Geneforge, the serviles were actually going to be whole huge tribes of Exile-style spiders.

 

This idea was eventually discarded, as it was mind-bogglingly terrible.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[*i]

Refreshing to hear several new ideas. I hope the new creations are not just new high level things, but some lower level ones as well. Above all, I hope it allows for more interesting tactical decisions on the part of the player.

 

It might be nice if weather did impact combat somewhat. For instance, wind would make batons and javelins less accurate and rain would weaken the firebolt spell.

 

Also, I'm glad to hear the line of sight and stealth issues will be revamped as the those algorithms in eariler games was not all that great.

 

Anyway, hope for a good game.

[Marlenny]

I was never too much into the battles or even the creations. I loved the storyline, the whole mystery that GF1 had. Which is what I liked this "I want the game to have many more scripted events and big battles. It's a war, and I want you to be mixed up in it." I can't wait to see how this is going to work out. I like the idea of playing a servile, of defending your race which was slaved for generations.

I'm glad the mines are getting improved, and somehow I'm all excited about the weather.

[Student of Trinity]

Sounds good to me too. I really like the idea of a third faction being elusive - something I might not find the first time through the game. I think it would be nice to connect somehow with the Awakened. I thought it was already clear in G2 that the Awakened were not really going to be the pure good guys after all, since the dilemma of power was hitting them hard. Maybe this issue could be related to their elusiveness: they could be not so much hidden as tricky to bring into existence.

 

It would be nice if weather included things like the 'damaging atmospheres' that are a GF tradition. It would be cool to have to walk through evil green fog while taking that acid damage, then see it clear away once I repaired the machines.

[Grain of Salt]

Sounds awesome! I've always been slightly annoyed at the later Geneforges because there was supposed to be a major war going on, but you hardly ever fought the opposing side, at least in the beginning.

A2, however, captured the idea that there was a war very well, which is why I liked A2. I want to see stuff like two opposing forts: one Loyalist, one Rebel. The captains of each of the forts give missions to take out the other fort.

Perhaps some towns could fall to the opposing side if the party takes too much time, like in A3, or does a mission for the opposite side.

 

P.S: Out this year? Wow, Jeff is fast.

[MagmaDragoon]

All the Jeff's ideas sounds good to me. I want to say only that, because I don't know enough English to describe how I feel now.

 

(2 posts from the member 1, the news of GF4 and all the other replies makes me REALLY happy, though.)

 

I have to wait only one year? That sound simply !!!

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Maybe the hidden faction will be Awakened under Khryk! He will work for the Shapers in the Mainland where he runs a city but this city and a couple surrounding it are Awakened but the Shapers don't know this.

[Micawber]

I like the sound of this. Basically it'll have the familiar elements (fighter/mage/shaper), returning characters, augmented by some fun or pretty things to look at (new spell effects, weather). Can't argue with that. Especially because the promises are modest and therefore achievable. If you promise 3 new creations, that's deliverable. While if you promise an entirely new engine, well people are bound to have high expectations.

 

Mind you, talking spiders are overdue to make an appearance in the Geneforge 'verse!

[Delicious Vlish]

**Head asplodes**

 

WEATHER!!!

 

I kept walking around the Isle of Spears and wishing and hoping for some snow flakes to fall.

[MagmaDragoon]

Well, the weather can be very annoying, like the acid atmosphere in the Purification Plant area in GF3...

 

Everything have a dark side...

 

Anyway, I like the idea. Jeff Vogel is my personal god !

 

Plase notice that I have a new signature for the GF4 news.

 

This post is simply amazing, isn't it?

[Pyro]

Hi

 

Please don't spend the majority of the time working on “prettier graphics”. The reason for your fan base is the unique and wonderful storytelling and the immense game play, the multiple outcomes and freedom you give the player are a rarity in most games. While a few graphic tweaks are always appreciated, without the story there would be no real reason to play your games.

[Vespucci]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
It might be nice if weather did impact combat somewhat. For instance, wind would make batons and javelins less accurate and rain would weaken the firebolt spell.

Don't forget visibility. Or suffering minor damage over time due to exposure. Or being startled by a sudden bolt of lightning and having a spell fail...

I find myself obscurely pleased about the weather announcement. Games never seem to have occasional inconveniences like nighttime, gloaming, temperature, wind... I liked the old "Omega" roguelike's sudden storms that pushed you randomly off course and could keep going for several turns. "Due to inclement weather you have become lost." "Ah, now you know where you are." Minor inconveniences, but enough to keep things interesting.

You don't want inconveniences to be *too* inconvenient, but a little reality can be a good thing. Especially if it sometimes interferes with foes too. And it's *really* great if once in a blue moon it's a stroke of good luck for you.

Even if the weather just turns out to be for atmosphere, I think I'll like it. As I've slowly made my way through GF1 I've really enjoyed the atmosphere the text gives. It's also nice that it runs the gamut from unsubtle to quite subtle, since players have different sensitivities. I've noticed Geneforge is actually teaching me a bit about interacting with people. When someone "looks cagey" it originally sailed right past me. Now I notice more often and try to figure out what these things indicate or if it's just atmosphere.

[Socane]

Yay, From what I can read, I'm very enthusad about it. I agree with the Weather effects, regardless if they effect you or not, it's awesome. And yes, The graphics while not necessary and the Storyline and plot is so much more important, the graphics are still quite welcome.

 

I'm enthused.

[Nick Ringer]

I like the sound of it ... my screen must be pissed at me for all the resolution switching (takes longer every time, just to spite me?)

 

By weather, do you also mean the passing of time? Day and night would be a really good addition. Also, to affect gameplay, I think the PC should have to sleep and eat. It's unrealistic not to ... unless, of course, you're all augmented. Then, you're inhuman and may not need nourishment or rest. Adds to the depth of gameplay without affecting plot or user interface. Towns could have inns (there was a "decorative" one in GF2) that allow you to rest and eat. If you're fatigued/starving, you should have similar effects to being encumbered (lower action points, hit penalties). Maybe you can buy camping equipment to bed down in friendly areas?

 

Example:

1 min real time : 60 min game time

"Instant" travel across zones adds 30 min game time

Day (6am-8pm): Fewer rogues, more people, towns active for trade

Night (8pm-6am): More rogues of different types, townsfolk are at home asleep.

Hunger comes 2 times a day, fatigue hits daily. Sleeping at night is more beneficial.

 

Just spitballing.

[Kingy]

Quote:

Originally written by Nick Ringer:
I think the PC should have to sleep and eat.

Do you know how annoying that would get?

[Alorael at Large]

If I may roughly paraphrase a roughly remembered Grumpy Gamer article Jeff wrote, having to micromanage characters' basic needs may be realistic but it isn't fun. Games are fun. Therefore having to carefully deal with basic needs is bad.

 

The food of the Exiles and Nethergate is about as close as I want to come to having to feed PCs. Sleep just isn't exciting. It means, what, clicking a button every so many minutes and enduring a few seconds of black screen?

 

—Alorael, who is excited about Geneforge 4. Maybe it will inspire him to play Geneforges 1-3!

[Ash Lael]

Fatigue (Revenge), Night/Day cycles (Shadow of the Stranger) and Hunger (Election) can all add a lot to a game. But the game has to be designed that way. You can't just slap them on top of some other formula and expect them to make things better.

[Micawber]

Yeah, like the way there's night and day in Avernum 3 but it doesn't make any difference to the game (no extra undead, no sleeping NPCs).

[Darkwind]

G4?! YESSS! Looks like I can't call it a trilogy anymore...(sigh) Hey the weather and the big battles (especially the battles) sound COOL! Better graphics is neat as well

Jeff should also do better sounds , on another note, I wonder what kind of spells there could be...more mental spells I hope, I simply LOVE wreaking havoc among my enemies by taking control of them and having them fight each other! Probably the best thing that's happened in a long time

[Suspicious Vlish]

It sounds like Geneforge 4 will be a worthy addition to the series.

 

Personally, if new creations are going to be added to the game, I hope that they won't be more powerful that drakons/eyebeasts/rotgroths.

 

The only technical 'error' in Geneforge was that distance did not effect missile accuracy. It would be good to see the mechanics of missile combat tweaked a little in Geneforge 4, so that your accuracy improves the closer you are to a target.

 

I'd also like to see the Glaahk unnerfed. In Geneforge 3, the Glaahk cost way too much essence, with very little payback.

[John S]

It would be nice if the documentation of the skills and creations (specifically, that of the Clawbug) were finally fixed.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

It would be nice if there were minotaurs.

[YamiNoRyuu]

I like the idea of spiders. They might be one of the stronger battle creations, but not as strong as rotgroths (did i spell that right?). they would be really cool, and im surprised they didn't put that as a creation before, seeing as its by SPIDERweb software.

[Donald Hebb]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
I've never been entirely happy with how mines and traps work, so I'm tinkering with that. I want to find a way for Tool Use heavy zones to be a more fun experience.

Agreed.

Honestly, if you have creatures that can be manipulated by tools like computers, you could have a lot more power with tool use rather than "you're allowed to take this alternate path since you have x of a certain skill".

For instance, if you have tool skill, perhaps you might be able to repair some types of broken batons, create magical crystals with living tools and the right type of crystal/gem, etc. Heck, maybe you could even create copies of keys without having to steal them from their owners.

I like the ideas. They might just provide a sense of innovation that a series of 3+ games ends up needing quite badly after a while.

EDIT: Ooh! Before I forget- if you have weather, you may want to give the party spells to control the weather. Imagine, creating gusts to foil ranged attackers, thunderstorms to zap armored foes, etc... For that matter- if you make weather effects, have each metal item the player wears increase the odds of the player's getting struck!

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by YamiNoRyuu:

 

Quote:

I like the idea of spiders. They might be one of the stronger battle creations, but not as strong as rotgroths (did i spell that right?). they would be really cool, and im surprised they didn't put that as a creation before, seeing as its by SPIDERweb software.

I can see it now: Arachnid Shaping. And, yes, I have put too much thought into it.

 

First, pull the clawbugs out of battle shaping and replace them with something like golems. Rename clawbugs giant scorpions.

 

Arachnid shaping should be expensive to level, but the essence cost should be reasonably low.

 

Tier 1:

Level 1: Giant mites-Small, hard to hit, weak melee attack. Very small change of diseasing enemy during melee attack.

Level 3: Giant ticks-Larger, better melee attack, fairly good chance to disease enemy during melee attack, easier to hit.

 

Tier 2:

Level 1: Giant scorpions-Bonus AP, strong melee attack.

Level 3: Venemous scorpions-Bonus AP, strong poisonous melee attack.

 

Tier 3:

Level 1: Giant spiders-Throws webs, strong melee attack. Occasionally tells you how cute you are.

Level 3: Giant tarantulas-Throws webs, strong acid melee attack. Ocasionally tells you how cute you are.

 

Tier 4:

Level 1: Giant vinegaroons-Bonus AP, spits acid, strong venemous melee attack, occasionally tells you how powerful you are.

Level 3: Stunning vinegaroons-Bonus AP, distance stun attack, stun melee attack, occasionally tells you how powerful you are.

 

Dikiyoba.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

I think that there should be 3rd faction shouldn't be elusive and a 4th one that is.

 

Factions

 

Shapers: You know what this faction is.

Rulers: Rahul, Shaper Council, Shaper leaders in G3 you tell your story to.

 

Rebels: You know what this faction is.

Rulers:Ghaldring, 3 Drakon Lords

 

Servile, Human, Drakon and Shaper Awakened: Awakened with Shapers and Drakons

Rulers: Khryk, Sharon, Giant kind Drakon, Orios Blaze

 

I don't have an idea for the 4th faction except that its elusive. (elusive is a stolen idea)

 

You are a young Drakon that was training until the Drakon Training School(Rebel) was shut down. Now, only having just started training, you are left alone to decide what to do.

 

3 classes:

Warrior Drakon:

Str: 4

Dex: 3

Int: 2

End: 4

 

Battle Skills

 

Melee: 4

Breath(B M): 2

M M: 1

Bl M: 2

 

Shaping:

 

B Shaping: 1

F Shaping: 1

M Shaping: 0

Form Shaping(changing someones attributes): 0

Magical Healing(healing with magic): 2

 

General Skills:

 

Mechanics: 3

Leadership: 3

Luck: 1

Herb Lore(Knowlegde of herbs): 3

Shaping Lore(Knowlegde of Shaping): 3

Herb Healing(Healing using herbs): 3

 

Wizard Drakon

 

Str: 2

Dex: 3

Int: 4

End: 2

 

Battle Skills

 

Melee: 2

Breath(B M): 4

M M: 3

Bl M: 4

 

Shaping:

 

B Shaping: 1

F Shaping: 1

M Shaping: 1

Form Shaping(changing someones attributes): 1

Magical Healing(healing with magic): 4

 

General Skills:

 

Mechanics: 2

Leadership: 2

Luck: 1

Herb Lore(Knowlegde of herbs): 2

Shaping Lore(Knowlegde of Shaping): 3

Herb Healing(Healing using herbs): 2

 

Shaper Drakon

 

Str: 2

Dex: 2

Int: 5

End: 2

 

Battle Skills

 

Melee: 1

Breath(B M): 3

M M: 2

Bl M: 3

 

Shaping:

 

B Shaping: 2

F Shaping: 2

M Shaping: 2

Form Shaping(changing someones attributes): 1

Magical Healing(healing with magic): 4

 

General Skills:

 

Mechanics: 2

Leadership: 2

Luck: 1

Herb Lore(Knowlegde of herbs): 2

Shaping Lore(Knowlegde of Shaping): 3

Herb Healing(Healing using herbs): 2

 

Any thoughts?

[ProperPseudonym]

I have a few things to say.

Please do not have it take place on an island(heck it could be a pennusila(sp) or something but I am getting quite sick of the idea of another game on an island(or series of islands)

weather.... that sounds intresting. but it could IMO mess up the game, and please, oh please and elevation to the game(PLEASE!!!)

 

and yea i also thing that their should be spiders(e.g. very fast w/ weak meele and very bad poison(acid at higher lvls) and a chance of paralization(sp) per every hit(after all they are spiders and such)

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Continuation of my earlier post.

 

Each Drakon Lord will be building a Geneforge while Ghaldring is guarding the closest to made one as the Drakon makinng it was killed.

[John S]

I'd have edited this into my earlier post, but then I wouldn't be a filth spammer (and some people might also miss my incredibly important message).

 

Since the Geneforge Series is so much more focused on combat, maybe we could have a place to respond to enemy attacks. For example, there could be counterspells to nullify magic attacks and blocks to stop weapons.

[personfromhell]

i think if you are a drakon or other kind of creation you should be able to reshape and augment yourself (wiht appropriate amounts of essence and/or objects) could be learned from books teachers but not canisters

[Lilith]

Did you read the topic? You're not a drakon.

[Delicious Vlish]

I am glad it is Jeff making this game... And that is pretty much all I can say.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Dikiyoba:

Quote:

Tier 3:

Level 1: Giant spiders-Throws webs, strong melee attack. Occasionally tells you how cute you are.

Level 3: Giant tarantulas-Throws webs, strong acid melee attack. Ocasionally tells you how cute you are.

I actually like this idea. It sure would be a neat Easter Egg if you could shape the legendary GIFTS. Ooooh, I can see it now. A horde of eight GIFTS following you around, cheeping "You're neat!", "You're cute!", and singing silly poems about flies.

It would be like having 8 Xian skulls yammering away at once.

 

Thuryl:

Quote:

Did you read the topic? You're not a drakon.

You expect n00bs to read the topic in depth before hitting the reply button? Wow, your standards are rather high, doncha think?.

[Student of Trinity]

Yeh. Fraid I concur with DV.

 

A spider creation wouldn't be unreasonable, since shaping of arthropods is well established. And although Glaahks are cool because they look more like Escher's rollbugs than any actual arthropod I've ever heard of, Clawbugs are pretty standard scorpion-like things. So I wouldn't necessarily object to spiders.

One zone with some experimental creations that closely resembled GIFTs would be a fun easter egg. That's as far as it had better go, though.

 

Somehow I actually don't like the idea of weather control magic. It doesn't fit the established themes of shaper magic; it doesn't feel like something shapers would do. It could be interesting as a new Sholai magic, I suppose. But maybe more just elemental-themed magic, with a sort of 'protection from missiles' spell that is supposed to involve a small personal wind shield.

 

Actually controlling the zone-scale weather, as TM seems to have in mind, strikes me as too big an effect with too little practical consequence. Conjuring a rainstorm should take a lot more magical power than a Kill spell, but all it does is get the enemy wet. Maybe Call Lightning could be cool, but unless the game is ridiculously full of thunderstorms, it would be too rarely useful to be worthwhile as a spell. An item, or a scripted storyline where you clear an impregnable strongpoint by bringing about a lot of magically-assisted lightning strikes; these could be good. So while it would be cool for weather to have important effects at least a few times in the game, and possible to have some magical control over the weather feature in the story, I'd say skip the part about weather-controlling spells as such.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Student of Trinity:

Quote:

One zone with some experimental creations that closely resembled GIFTs would be a fun easter egg. That's as far as it had better go, though.

BOO HISS! Off with ye, fiend! We want to be able to shape GIFTS! *pelts SoT with rotten eggs*

 

Quote:

Maybe Call Lightning could be cool,

Call Lightning PWNS in Baldur's Gate...

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Quote:

Did you read the topic? You're not a drakon.

Quote:

Thuryl:
quote:

Did you read the topic? You're not a drakon.
You expect n00bs to read the topic in depth before hitting the reply button? Wow, your standards are rather high, doncha think?.

You guys seem to be the ones who haven't read the forum.... though it says that you won't be a Shaper it also says that ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE .

[Lilith]

I hate to disappoint you, but it's not going to be subject to that much change.

[Aran]

Fortunately. Geneforge has been criticized for its plots, but I do hope Jeff does not fall to the level where he makes a game in which you you run around as a mutant dinosaur.

[Student of Trinity]

For that, there's Battalion . It's not a very good game any more. Not just because standards have advanced: it runs too fast now. OK, it was only ever good in a sort of kooky way. But still.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

What do you have agaist drakons? Is there a reason you don't like them?

[Delicious Vlish]

As cool as Drakons might be, if I start up G4 and see a Drakon as a playable race, I am going to quit the game and toss it in my desktop trashcan.

 

Wouldn't be much of a game. Unless of course the first area was populated by Reaper Turrents, and upper level hostile creations by the swarm.

 

That said, I do believe that if done properly, playing as some sort of rebel creation of some sort would be nice. Perhaps a hatchling Dryak. But even that might be iffy.

 

All things considered though, Dryaks can have their genes forged to become Drakons. And for this one reason alone, this is a bad idea.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

What about born Drakons? Not all are created. Some start out as babies.

[Spidweb]

"As cool as Drakons might be, if I start up G4 and see a Drakon as a playable race, I am going to quit the game and toss it in my desktop trashcan."

 

Don't worry. I am sure I could find a thoroughly contrived way to bust your drakon down to a level 1 character. :-)

 

But no, you will play a mammalian humanoid. I'm not sure I have the guts to design a game where you play something else. I think it would be a tough road to convince a lot of gamers that they want their avatar to be something different.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Micawber]

I guess that rules out ghosts then. Oh well.