If canisters were real...

[Good Canisters]

How could anyone resist the temptation and just use canisters in moderation? Once you've used the canisters, you'll want more. Canisters are like drugs, but even more addictive. Eventually, you'll have to slurp more canisters, and at an snowballing rate. Even a purist shaper can be eventually tempted by the seized canister, use it and become Barzhal, using more and more every day. Training in the end won't matter, unless you're strong enough to resist it forever.

[Fort]

Canisters are of course inherently addictive, but not to the extent that a trained mind could not resist the temptation after only using one. I do agree, though, that moderation is practically impossible unless moderation means using a few and then stopping completely forever.

[Good Canisters]

A great possible problem with the shaper army is that they can't easily train all their apprentices the more powerful creations, such as ur-glaahks and drayks (assuming they're not banned). Canisters can help win the war; they're easy to make, and they will give the apprentices some quick power. One or two to each shaper can give them a massive advantage.

[Dikiyoba]

Until the drayks, ur-glaahks, and other creations go rogue and attack their masters because they learned how to make creations through canisters without learning how to control them. That's what brought the Barzites down.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Typo.

[Lord Safey]

in the long term time always seems to be on the side of the shapers. In geneforge one the takers are trying to build up as much power as possible before the shapers find out about them. In Geneforge 2 every faction in the moutians was rushing to build up a defence against the shapers. In geneforge 3 the rebillion is in a rush to build the geneforge before the shapers discover it. (From what I know of it) the rebillion is desperate to destroy the shapers before they fall apart at the seems. Shapers always seem to have time as their ally and powerfull ally it is.

[The_Other_Guy]

Quote:

In the context of this topic question, I would define humanity as the quality of having the kind emotional and behavioral characteristics that are often described as uniquely human because they differentiate people from animals, such as empathy, compassion, mercy, and love.

BINGO! Right on the mark! This is exactly what I meant.

[Retlaw May]

We are talking if canisters were real right? So that means no load previous game, so unless you were with the maker, you wouldn't know if the one you were using was one of the "best" canisters.

If I were a shaper aprentice with access to trainers I would not use canisters and use my enemies madness and ego against them. In the end, I think the strongest people in the Geneforge world are probably the older shapers without modification. They have the capasity to think rationally and stay alive longer with less danger so they may progress and plan. I have have great disdain for the rebels. As long as I live the Shapers shall recieve my loyalty with the hope that I may one day be high enough up to make some moderate changes.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
In the end, I think the strongest people in the Geneforge world are probably the older shapers without modification.

By Geneforge 4, all such people are either dead or hiding in fortresses in fear of death, with one or two exceptions. The frailty of followers of the old ways has already been proven. Soon, the Shaper Council will go the way of Rahul, and the defeat of the weak will be complete.

In real life it would be the same way. How could anyone hope to stand up against the canister augmented? No, they're not just going to kill each other off. Remember, they have far less patience with the unshaped than they do with each other. You fools who refused the glory of canisters will be long since dead or enslaved before the real fighting between gods begins. Where do you want to be when that happens, on the top, or on the bottom?

On humanity: I hate that the word 'human' has become synonymous with empathy and compassion. There are so many people in the world today that are in power and still lack these characteristics. Adding canisters to the equation would mean little. On the flip side, human is also synonymous with mistake...

[Lord Safey]

Intresting how you will never be able to compelty drive it out of you. Humans and other senients are prone to make mistakes. Since canisters are made by humans canisters are infected with humanity. Same goes for the geneforge. You may be able to dilute the humanity out of you but never drive it from you. While canisters and the geneforge may rule the realm the of the shapers I doubt they rule this realm with the same impunity. We already have our own super weapons.

[Good Canisters]

So Lord Safey, you think it's good to use every canister you can get your hands on because you will always have a strand of humanity left? That would be such an advantage to powermongers such as myself.

[Lord Safey]

no all warmongers want to rid them selfs of their humanity completly and they will never be able to completly do it. Even if it is overwhelminly small.

[Fort]

Just because the canister shaped have a little more patience and respect for others like them does not mean that they will fully cooperate with each other. They will be unable to put the group cause in front of their own lives, and so the movement will fall apart at the seams at the first sign of hardships. I am curious though, what exactly would the canister movement fight for?

 

Regarding the diluting humanity with shaping, if canister use is completely condoned, then some radical among radicals will turn themselves into some Ur-human. Hopefully it will not resemble Vahnatai.

[Good Canisters]

The canister movement... They might fight for global domination, but most likely: more canisters!

[Exiled N5cromancer]

Coulden't they just use the canisters for good and we could all live in peace? All we have to do is kill all the poeple who use them & use them (for ourselves of course) to take over the wourld eraticating the remianing canistiers then turning upon ourselves and kill everyone who used them for good What a wonderful world it would be Of course one person would have to stay out of it all and keep the good cans for himself so that when the poeple who used them are all nice and pushing up daisys he(or she)Can rise up (use the cans) & make sure all the cans are gone and that NOONE ever uses them agian When this person is close to dieing he(or she)can kill all his freinds a famliy (just in case anyone would know about the secret cans) then give them to some unexpecting(but bright) fool who with carry on the mission. then the person can kill him(or herself)Then it will all repeat.

[Lord Safey]

well all I have to say about canister users is your argoance is my greatest weapon. Each person has their weakness and with fortunaly with canister users that is always arrogance. It is never good to have such a preidcitable flaw.

[Good Canisters]

Sure, kill people to bring peace.

[Lord Safey]

true humans can't fight wars if we don't exist.

[Fort]

If the ultimate goal of the canister movement is just to get more canisters, then soon its followers will realize that every canister used by someone else is one less for them. Then civil war will ensue. Really, where is the motive?

 

To Exiled Necromancer, I spent more time typing this than I did trying to decipher your message.

[Fort]

EDIT: That was dumb.

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Garrison:
If the ultimate goal of the canister movement is just to get more canisters, then soon its followers will realize that every canister used by someone else is one less for them. Then civil war will ensue. Really, where is the motive?

To Exiled Necromancer, I spent more time typing this than I did trying to decipher your message.

But every nation has its own problems. There may be a lot of infighting for the canister movement, but with strong authority (leadership) one could control the movement and lead them to victory! They would create uber creations and easily rampage over the hostile armies.

[Sudanna]

Exiled Necromancer -

 

What makes you so sure that every hyped-up can-mad freak would be so willing to commit suicide and live peacefully in a world ripe for the taking?

 

And wouldn't it be just a little bit suspicious if an entire family/friend web with one connection to a single uber-person was suddenly murdered for no apparent reason? People would investigate, my anti-friend.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
You may be able to dilute the humanity out of you but never drive it from you.

Sorry, but no. The Barzite ending in Geneforge 2 showed that it is indeed possible to rid yourself of that last "nagging" shred of humanity through canisters.

Garrison: The "canister movement" in my vision would fight not only for the rights to use canisters, but also against creationocracy. When given independence, creations try to dominate those around them, and for that they must be put in their place. The movement would stay together out of necessity. Canisters may make you arrogant, but they don’t make you retarded. No one person would stand a chance against an army of canister enlightened people. The only way they will be able to gain more power is to grit their teeth, submit to me, and earn their canisters one by one, like everyone else.

Sure, everyone would want to have their own little piece of the world, if not the whole things, but they would quickly learn the value of allies in such times of total war. Those of you that say it would never work overestimate, or possibly underestimate, the power of arrogance. If these people really seek what is best for themselves, they will work together, no matter how grudgingly so. Just look at the leaders of the rebellion. It is possible, no, it is inevitable.

Exiled Necromancer: What?

[Retlaw May]

ET, while I agree you should not underestimate people in the need of using allies, you also should not underestimate those people's egos and their capacity for great pettiness that will destroy such alliances. And while sanity is an illusion, their is a such thing as just too unstable.

 

-"Show me a sane man and I will fix him."

 

PS: I think that your ideas would just lead to multiple Shaper (maybe put that in quotations?) Monarchs. You'll understand if you play G4.

[Lord Safey]

You don't seek perfection you seek power perfection is merely addition to your power and power should never be sought for the sake of power. If I was to use canisters it would be to try to surive and try to bring back a lasting peace .I have a goal and my ambitions have a limit and will cease when my goals have been fufilled. You and your army seek power for the sake and always hunger of it. You lead an army of infiviuals who do nothing if it doesn't benfit themself. They all have a hunger for power that can't be filled.My goals are acheivable albiet hard but once their acheive I am happy. Your lust for power will never be filled your goals can never be acheives for you seek to do the impossible, that is to statisify your lust for power. You may defeat me but I know you can never truley succed. As soon as you can no longer feed your armies lust for power your armies will fracture and your lust will cause you to betray everything you worked for. I beleive that day will come a lot sooner then you think.

[Fort]

I think Safey was arguing against ET, but I am not even sure anymore.

 

Alliances begrudgingly forged do not really last for very long. If each "canister enlightened" individual wants the right to use more canisters and disenfranchise creations, then they do not have to submit to a movement like you describe. The motive still does not explain it all adequately. Remember that I am not saying that the movement would fail, just that the army you envision would actually have to be much weaker and more disorganized.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Retlaw, when you see the huge ego that canisters give you, you assume it will lead to chaos. Really, no one will be able to organize a resistance against my new order because they will be too busy trying to curry favor with me in order to gain more canisters. I don't care if they're hating me in their minds. The second they voice their disloyalty, a horde of my minions will be upon them, racing to be the first to bring me the traitor’s head, fully expecting a reward in the form of canisters for the deed. Thus, through their arrogance, I have guaranteed order. As I've said before, every canister someone takes only makes them more my servant, not the other way around.

 

On the army of Shaper Monarchs theory, I'll meet you halfway on this one. Some are indeed made insane by canisters (Monarch, Shaila) but they are more often not (Litalia, Jared, Barzahl). The mistakes that happen from time to time will be easy to spot, as they generally make no attempts to hide themselves. Canister rewards to those who 'fix' these accidents... problem solved.

 

Lord Safey: Yes, each individual Tullegolite would only see their own interests. Each one would have the ultimate goal of having my own position, and they will not rest until they have it. But it is this very fact that makes us strong. If each one of us concerns themselves only with power, we will be undefeatable. Since their ultimate goal will be to control my empire, they will do what is in it's best interest because it is in turn in their own best interest. It is this very ambition that unites us and keeps order.

 

Edit: Garrison

Quote:

If each... individual wants the right to use more canisters... they do not have to submit to a movement like you describe.

Oh, really? Then where exactly will they be getting the canister that they so crave?

[Retlaw May]

As you said before, do not underestimate the alliances that can be formed by common hate or neccesity. Even if you are the superior "shaper", you are still flesh and your underlings will band together an kill you eventually. You will live in fear or die because you don't have fear. You will be hunted and killed just like Monarch because there will always be ones as you seeking power and ones like my ideals who would resist canisters unless absolute neccesity. Both your own type and my own will hunt you. Death is enement for you for you are hunted and will always be hunted.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
your underlings will band together an kill you eventually

Won't happen. They are far too arrogant to work together to overthrown me. Besides, their loyalty has already been bought and paid for with power. Most will even seek to protect me to assure that the canisters continue to flow freely. Thus, through the chaos and individuality, I have created order and unity.

There will be those that try to kill me. Being the leader of this overpowered faction, my personal defenses will be formitable, but should that fail to save my life, then, as I've said before, so be it. I hope the Emperor who takes my place is a worthey one.

As for 'your type,' I do not see the non-shaped as a threat. Those that use canisters have such a loathing of you're insolent kind that any one of you that tries to stand against me will be long gone before they turn their attention towards me.

[emulrooney]

As arrogant as the canister-users are, let us look toward the drakons: they are at least as arrogant, incredibly powerful, and yet they all remain loyal to Ghaldring.

 

I realize a good number of them changed sides and became loyal to Salassar. However, uprisings of this magnitude are rare: and Ghaldring was crafty enough to manipulate Salassar into fighting the hero (bad idea).

 

What does this mean? Tullegolar's canister-chugging super-society would not only require a powerful leader, but also a cunning one. But it is possible.

[Lord Safey]

well their loyalty well only last as long as you control a monpoly on canisters. If one (or more)of your more ambitous generals was to capture/make his own canister factory he could make his canisters and no longer need you for them and his troops would remain loyal to him for same reason you have currenlty control your empire. He will use his canisters to boost his power and the power of his troops in hopes to seize your cansiter factory and your postion. Then you have a rival and now instead of vanquishing the shapers with your full power you now have to invest most of your power to killing a very powerful rival. Even if you do beat him that confilict will weaken you to the point that the shapers could crush you with ease. You may have the loyalty of your empire but that loyalty is very fragile and break under a buff of wind.

[Fort]

Good lord. Tullegolar has addressed all of these points before because this argument has spanned over multiple topics and has lasted about a month now. I have to admit that he is pretty good at finding solutions to these problems, but they all stem from the presumption that canister modified shapers would be willing to work together and obey an emperor.

 

Quote:

They are far too arrogant to work together to overthrown me. Besides, their loyalty has already been bought and paid for with power.

If they are too arrogant to work together, then it really does not make sense for them to want to work with you. They will seek power by killing you. No guards will be loyal enough for you to trust them with your life, and it would be a desperate argument to say that no one could kill you.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I don't understand why this is so hard to imagine. If my explanation for why it would work isn't good enough, just look at the games. It worked for Barzahl, didn't it? And he gave canisters to people who were totally unprepared for the power. I would only be giving them to worthy candidates. It worked for Trajkov. In his ending, he had no trouble ruling over an empire of canister maddened foreigners. I wouldn’t be conquering people like he did, I would be bringing order to lands that are already in total chaos. Finally, it worked for Ghaldring, despite the fact that drakons are unstable to begin with. My empire would take the whole mad creation factor out of the deal entirely. It's not like my idea for a Geneforge government is even original, it's been done before. If anything, mine is only correcting the shortcomings of ones that came before it.

 

To say it wouldn’t work is simply ignoring everything that has happened in the games so far.

[Lord Safey]

thats only becuase thier enemies don't know the meaning of divide and conquer.

[Exiled N5cromancer]

....Was nobody looking at my real messege? You just have to kill all who oppose you to have a truly peaceful world!!!

The only other option would to destroy the cans(and the ruler)for good but then who would rule who would keep th peace?? Poeple would just go back to killing others for the sake of peace!!!

[Fort]

ET is right about that. But there just will not be real peace in such a kingdom, and the whole society would be based on instability. Anyway, my final contribution to this discussion will be a reiteration of a lame argument: no matter how strong the leader becomes, some PC will come and whip your ass.

[Retlaw May]

ET, your "worthy canidates" would be harder to control than anyone because they would be more arrogant and less trustworthy. Also, the Barzite/Shoali ending is before the Shapers are truly aware of the threat of canisters. They have seen your tricks and met them.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Garrison:

 

Quote:

Good lord. Tullegolar has addressed all of these points before because this argument has spanned over multiple topics and has lasted about a month now.

Has it only been that long? I thought it was two or three months at least.

 

Dikiyoba thinks the biggest flaw in Emperor Tullegolar's plan is that it only covers how he'll maintain control with an army and canister factories. It says nothing about how he'll get them in the first place.

[Slawbug]

I must have missed the part where Barzahl didn't get killed. It worked for him in only one of many possible G2 endings, and not in the continuity used for G3 and G4.

[Lilith]

I think ET is also overestimating the difficulty of making canisters. G4 implies that all that's required is one guy with Shaping talent and the ability to forge puresteel. Stamping out clandestine canister workshops is likely to be a non-trivial task.

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Cryptozoology:
I think ET is also overestimating the difficulty of making canisters. G4 implies that all that's required is one guy with Shaping talent and the ability to forge puresteel. Stamping out clandestine canister workshops is likely to be a non-trivial task.

It is also true that the Barzite canister maker in G2 claims that it was difficult. However the drakon in G3 makes it look easy...

[Slawbug]

Yeah, but you also need a source of puresteel, which is presented as extremely rare, and you need to know how to make the canisters. By the time G4 comes around that's probably known by plenty of people, I suppose. The puresteel is still rare, though.

[Lord Safey]

true he has a relaince on a yet built and easy to sabatoge canister factory.

[Lord Safey]

double post sorry

[Fort]

Those are trivial flaws to his plan. Tullegolar rationally concedes the necessity of having a unified army against the hordes of his enemies, and provides canonical evidence to support why they would be able to band together and fight. The problem of course is that temporary allegiances and cohesion are not very effective for winning the whole war. During periods of relatively tranquility, which may include peacetime, many of the canister users will have to find ways to spend their time. Not being able to divert their violent tendencies toward an enemy, they will try to subvert society for their own benefit. It is just not a good long term plan.

[Upon Mars.]

how about arenas they surely convert the violence into a horrid game ? Any away the shaper society is based on killing of entire species and hundreds of or fellows just like in or society? Did we not used the nazis to invent spaces crafts? So canister users would some time like any human leader augment tensions between countries or fraction to develop a war. In this society people are bored and in constant search for amusements. That is something that we h take in account before trying to stop war.

 

"I would be glad to join the tellogulites to share the wonders of self shaping or not and would be against him and search of an new leader".

 

Now you see through the upper paragraph how people think, Imperator Tellogulor, people hate being bored so they will take any side to take away their boredom it doesn't mater which side they are in there is now good or evil in a planet full off hypocrites and self centered people .

So in that case i wouldn't join any of you or i will to seek an amusement : Do you understand ?

Tell me if i should make my self clear.

 

BUT through war some times like the vikings invade northern Europe for the basic needs of people like water and food people make war. IN our so called ""civilized"" world, war at it's most about amusement.

 

Self shaping can change your mind and make you less arrogant because it changes your mind therefore you can destroy conditionments because it radically change your mind making you more open instead of than using canisters one by one alloying your ego to grow. The ego that is a conditionement of the mind, so i would be not a canister junkie. But self shaping has a risk if you are not precise you can cause an error in your genes either resulting in death or cripple of your one self or others. In opposition this kind of self shaping could counter effect the canister use making you or others human again so i promote a war against tellogullor. And provide a solid shelter for the weak and the poor and letting unlike tellogulor others to develop their mind and letting them have different point of view making a more peaceful society. More than that the knowledge that the early inhabitants of changing the structure of reality itself i would be able to counter attack the hordes of tellogulor and making him to go into an exile or if necessary make him a prisoner. And tellogullor to any that would try to steal my secrets i would with my magic probe only thoughts that could be dangerous to my order making me invulnerable to your spies.

 

Glory of the multitudes and the greater good of mankind !!!

(Wait that is wrong hey i am becoming more human oh hell !! that is disgusting, well different point of views are better than one.)

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Dikiyoba: My purpose here is really just to explain the type of government I think would work best in the Geneforge world. Any explanation of how I would achieve the power to form such a government would be pointless speculation. Though in a time of total war and chaos, I don't think it would be that hard. It is times like these that men of great ambition are allowed to blossom.

 

Slarty: The point is not that Barzahl won anything, he didn't. The point I was making there was that he managed to keep a canister oriented society from turning into the total chaos everyone is claiming would happen.

 

Thuryl: I thought Geneforge 4 implied that canister makers were few and far between. How many did you see in the game? Two? Jared, whom I got the impression was particularly skilled and really a rare asset. And that one drakon, who was extremely powerful to begin with. No, I don't think canisters are easy to make at all. Otherwise people like Monarch would just make their own.

 

Puresteel: Like with any kind of war, victory begins with securing resources. War in the Geneforge world is no exception. Finding puresteel is apparently tough, but again, the other factions manage, why couldn't I?

 

Times of Peace: Here is where my plans might actually be undeniably flawed. The Tullegolite Empire is designed to exist in a time of total war. You take away the war, you take away an enemy for my crazy followers to focus their energy on, and I can no longer guarantee stability. Hmm, I suppose it would be in my best interest, then, to drag out the war as long as possible. Shouldn't be hard at all.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Thuryl: I thought Geneforge 4 implied that canister makers were few and far between. How many did you see in the game? Two? Jared, whom I got the impression was particularly skilled and really a rare asset. And that one drakon, who was extremely powerful to begin with. No, I don't think canisters are easy to make at all. Otherwise people like Monarch would just make their own.

There's also Gibbons in Illya Safehouse, who explains quite a bit about how canisters are made. The impression I get is that the main limiting factor on the rebels' ability to make canisters is access to puresteel. Shapers have the technology to make puresteel, so they could probably make plenty of canisters if they wanted to -- but of course, they don't want to.

[Lord Safey]

ET: Thats the point your empire wouldn't last. The world you would create would exist in eternal warfare either your empire is fighting external wars with the rebels, shapers, possibly event he sholia if you can gain a foothold on their land or should peace time come your empire will splinter into civil war. You can never ever have peace. Hope you like war.

[Upon Mars.]

i think that is true only if it was a non lasting conflict then your empire would last as for mine it might crumple to pieces as any empire because it is based on an conflict, shielding the weak and poor form tellogulor and making him look evil so i could become like a tyrant killing people and oppressing them, who knows? Tellogulor could be a better ruler than and kill me for my ill minded self . Empires always fell and that the way it is.

[Fort]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Times of Peace: Here is where my plans might actually be undeniably flawed.

Yay! A rhetorical battle won. Unfortunately that was a side victory. More importantly, if you, Tullegolar, were to create this faction, do you envision yourself as being the permanent, public leader throughout the whole conflict? I believe that even if your faction wins, you will be deposed somewhere in the process. Going back to a much earlier assertion of mine, I think the most effective way for you to lead your prone to strife army is to set up your generals as puppet emperors.

EDIT:
Opon mars, I think it is OK to refer to Emperor Tullegolar as ET or Tully.