If canisters were real...

[The_Other_Guy]

If canisters were real, how many (if any) would you use?

[Fort]

As many as possible to increase my chances of surviving attacks from other maniacs hyped up on canisters.

 

Also, though you may not care, " ignorance is bliss " was coined by Thomas Gray .

[emulrooney]

Humanity kind of stinks anyway. Give me more canisters!

[Good Canisters]

Canisters make you pure and perfect! Use them all!

[Nioca]

I use them in moderation. That way, I keep my... Oh, wait, I already forfeited my sanity when I came here, didn't I?

[Lord Safey]

do you think if you used enough canisters would it be the same as useing the geneforge? How many would you need to use?

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
do you think if you used enough canisters would it be the same as useing the geneforge? How many would you need to use?

A minimum of a lot?

Spoiler warning:

8 STR
8 DEX
8 EDR
8 INT
8 MeW
8 MiS?
8 QA?
8 Ana?
8 SC
8 FS
8 MS
8 BS
8 HC

Note that the bonuses are abbreviated in case that you accidentally read ahead. But they should be easy enough to figure out. I think some of the bonuses are wrong... I haven't used the Geneforge in a long time.

[Randomizer]

Go for a few of the really useful ones so you gain power but still have some control. That way you can goad the ones that use too many into doing stupid things. Let them fight amongst themselves and kill the "winner."

[Emperor Tullegolar]

This poll is misleading. Canisters don not take your humanity. They augment it, making you a better human than you could ever dream to be without them.

 

In the Geneforge world I would use all I could get my hands on, simply as a matter of survival. The canisters, along with my unmatched ambition, would assure my domination of that world... at least for a little while.

 

In the real world, I would probably only need to use a few to get what I really want, assuming not too many people already have access to them. Still, I would probably end up using as many as possible. Only then would I have the clarity of thought I need to be an enlightened ruler.

 

Geneforge 4 revealed that the geneforge itself does not, in fact, perfect you, as you can still use canisters after having using it. A geneforge is more like the equivilant of using a few canisters plus getting the standard augmentation that allows use of shaping and powerful magic. However, the Barzite ending revealed that absolute perfection is possible through canisters. Thus, I don't really care how I acheive perfection, be it through canisters or geneforges. It makes no difference as long as I get it.

[Upon Mars.]

It would be more useful to be a shaper from sucia isle then you could shape your self without loosing your humanness.

[Lord Safey]

@Emperor Tullegolar What is your definition of humanity? Cause by my defintion they decrease and removes your humanity.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

A very good question, Lord Safey. I suppose if you use the word humanity literally, you may be correct. After all, the only thing that makes us human as opposed to something else is our genes, and the canisters alter the genes directly. So I suppose it is accurate to say you are becomming less human with each one you use.

 

If that is the case, I'm going to have to agree with Arachnid. Why be human when you can be something superior? In fact, I no longer consider the title 'human' worthey of someone with such power and clarity. Hmm, what should the new perfect species created by canisters and the geneforge be called?

[Lord Safey]

Techincally any two organisims that can reproduce and produce off sping that can produce offsprings your the same spieices. The problem with canisters and the geneforge is that it modifys the DNA. The DNA is extermly complex about 100 million genes.These genes combine with each other to make other genes. Modifying your gense with out makeing a mistake is logisitcally impossible. The more you modify your self the more mistakes you expose your self too.

[The_Other_Guy]

By humanity I was actually talking about how they make you cruel, quick to anger, idiotically rash, etc.

[The_Other_Guy]

btw Garrison in my signature while the phrase is not original, the context in Matrix helps to illustrate the point in a manner that is familiar to many people, but thanks for pointing out the origin of the phrase; it made for an interesting diversion.

[Fort]

I would not want you to change your signature. I just wanted to point that out in case you thought Cipher was the first character or person who ever said that. In context, Cipher's quotation has a more profound effect on people today anyway. The Matrix, meaning the virtual world itself, is the perfect setting for the phrase.

 

In the context of this topic question, I would define humanity as the quality of having the kind emotional and behavioral characteristics that are often described as uniquely human because they differentiate people from animals, such as empathy, compassion, mercy, and love. Genetically speaking, as long as the canister modified individual still has a heart, two lungs, and an even number of limbs, he is human.

 

I agree with Tullegolar on this one in that I would take as many canisters as possible. From an egocentric point of view, there really are few reasons not to do so. Regret over losing the previously mentioned human emotions will be overshadowed by the overwhelmingly euphoric feelings of mania provided by the overconsumption of glowing canister contents. Hollow happiness is better than nothing.

[Aeshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
In fact, I no longer consider the title 'human' worthey of someone with such power and clarity.

Unfortuantly for you you ARE a human in real life (no matter how much you pretend you aren't ) and wishful thinking won't help you

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
what should the new perfect species created by canisters and the geneforge be called?

How about "moronic-insane-retards with glowing skin and unstable power who think their better than anyone else?"

[emulrooney]

Quote:

Originally written by Eater of Pancakes:

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
what should the new perfect species created by canisters and the geneforge be called?

How about "moronic-insane-retards with glowing skin and unstable power who think their better than anyone else?" [/QB]

As opposed to the alternative: target practice. <3

This poll brings up an interesting question: is it possible for enough canister abuse to kill you? It is widely assumed that using the Geneforge a second time would be fatal, and if the canisters are mini-Geneforges, it seems likely that enough could eventually kill you.

Or maybe not: maybe you'll become so powerful you won't even need your mortal shell and you'll forsake your physical body. That would be pretty sweet.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Arachnid:

 

Quote:

It is widely assumed that using the Geneforge a second time would be fatal...

Where did that come from? Dikiyoba is only familiar with the the book in G1 that says after using the geneforge, the user will be able to safely swim in it. It's impossible to use the same geneforge twice, because there's no genes able to be rewritten.

[Aeshi]

Why does Dikiyoba refer to Dikiyoba in the 3rd person?

 

Is it one of those things you do when your a popular person?

[emulrooney]

* * Spoilers * *

 

Quote:

"The Geneforge swirls and pulses before you. You don't dare touch it again. A second dose would undoubtedly kill you."

Taken directly from the Southforge Citadel script.

 

Quote:

"I would stay away from it. Don't get close. It can have a powerful and deadly pull on those who should use it least."

Greta says this. (Although admitedly, it is somewhat ambiguous)

 

I could have sworn there were more examples. I'll take another look later.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Arachnid:

 

Quote:

Quote:

"The Geneforge swirls and pulses before you. You don't dare touch it again. A second dose would undoubtedly kill you."

Taken directly from the Southforge Citadel script.

So it depends on the geneforge. Here's how the original one is described:

 

Quote:

"_Then, when the chosen is rewritten, the pool may do no more. The changing will be done and no more changing can have any effect. The user may swim in the pool safely. Such will be the power._";

---

 

Originally by Eater of Pancakes:

 

Quote:

Why does Dikiyoba refer to Dikiyoba in the 3rd person?

Because Dikiyoba can, of course.

[Slawbug]

You can actually use the Northforge Citadel geneforge and die from it, having already used the Southforge one.

 

It is worth pointing out, though, that the effects of the Southforge geneforge are significantly less pronounced than those of the original geneforge.

[Fort]

The original Geneforge was ridiculously powerful, and could easily kill even a veteran user of canisters like Trajkov without the proper gloves. I am sure that using too many canisters in too short of a time would be lethal. The body would not be able to adapt to the changes in the genes quickly enough. However, I am confident that a skilled genetic shaper could virtually endlessly modify his own genes without too much danger as long as it was done over time.

[Lord Safey]

When useing geneforge or canisters. Their are proably 3 different set of problems you have worry about. First is the shock to your body. With no protection your body is likely to die from shock from use of the geneforge. 2nd is your body immunes system trying to reject to changes could cuase some intresting problems. 3rd is the slow but sure accumaltion of mistakes. Statsitcally each use will introduce a minor mistake and after you use a few hundred/thousand. The mistakes become more pronuced. I like to point out the teacher who joined the rebillion and the shaper who started useing them without realizeing it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I don't think you need to worry about your immune system turning on you. After all, as long as the change effects the genes in every single cell in your body, what's left to reject it? The change becomes a part of you, changing you from within, and the immune system is only irritated by invasion from without.

 

What would be interesting to see are the long term effects of self shaping. No one has lived long enough after having used these things to see whether or not they have deadly side effects. War veterans will be coming back to sue Ghaldring's ass off once they find out they've been diagnosed with cancer... everywhere. If only that Danette had left better notes behind. Stupid woman.

 

Then again, shaping is pretty powerful, and I don’t see why a cure for cancer couldn’t be developed with shaper resources.

[Retlaw May]

The Southforge Geneforge was a bit of a disappointment to me. After all the rebels did to get one, that was all that it could do? I got the feeling that the original geneforge basically made you a god, sure it only gave you those +10 bonuses immediately, but I got the feeling that the full effects don't happen until you reach the mainland and create your empire.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I have a feeling that the rebel ending in Geneforge 3 happened. That would mean that the Drakons have their very own super geneforge back on the Ashen Isles. You can't blame them for making the ones on the mainland weak. After all, they were ment for 'lesser' species. I hate drakons. I also miss the Geneforge 1 geneforge.

[Good Canisters]

Well the G1 Geneforge needed to be more powerful, because the level limit was significantly lower than the other games, especially if you're a Taker with the amulet.

[Lord Safey]

So the rebels have two geneforges and they still can't win? They must really be pathetic.

[Lord Safey]

From what you say I think the orginal geneforge was a test of shaper might made at the height of shaper power dureing peace time with no resource sucking war. These other geneforges were made in hideing with much more limited resources of course their not going to give you the god like power of the orginal. Super weapons are not easy to make. Cheap mans version are going to be powerd down.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

No, the rebellion sucks because it's led by creations. See what happens when creations have rights? Making yourself an autocratic ruler is one thing, but they're not even any good at it! The Tullegolites would never have this problem. Creations must be put in their place. Technology must be allowed to progress free of the drakon perversions.

[Fort]

The Tullegolites would suffer from too much hubris to stop bickering and start preparing for the imminent blitzkrieg that for some reason all the arrogant generals have deemed insignificant. Believing in one's own nonexistent ability to command is far more pathetic than poorly leading a revolution against oppression.

 

Drakons running around free, though, is probably worse than letting the shapers rule. This is probably a dumb question, but since I have not played much past Geneforge 1, I do not know whether there is a sect that opposes the Shapers without advocating creations' rights. Is there such a group?

 

Regarding the immune system issue, an autoimmune response is by definition the body attacking itself, regardless of the fact that the attacking cells and the cells they attack share the same genetic material. Cancer and other, horrible unforeseen consequences are arguably acceptable risks in the pursuit of genetic perfection. If something went wrong, shape some more to correct the problem and hope that you do not turn into a pile of goo.

[Lord Safey]

I wasn'ts saying their are weak beacues of their weak geneforges I'm saying their weak inspite of thier genforges.

[Lord Safey]

be kind of funny if some one made a cannister that gave you an immune system so strong that it prevent new canisters from modifying your DNA. I make hundreds of them and leave them in places canister slurpers will find. Then wait for the angry hoard of mad canister uber shapers.

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Safey:
be kind of funny if some one made a cannister that gave you an immune system so strong that it prevent new canisters from modifying your DNA. I make hundreds of them and leave them in places canister slurpers will find. Then wait for the angry hoard of mad canister uber shapers.

That my friend, is a great idea.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Garrison:

 

Quote:

This is probably a dumb question, but since I have not played much past Geneforge 1, I do not know whether there is a sect that opposes the Shapers without advocating creations' rights. Is there such a group?

The Barzites in G2, led by Barzahl and based in a city called Rising, had such a stance. If you've been paying attention to Emperor Tullegolar, you know their philosophy well, because the Tullegolites are basically just Barzites with a new name and leader. There's a reason Emperor Tullegolar is based in New Rising.

 

Edit: Lord Safey, no more double posts please. If you have something else to say, edit your old post instead.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Garrison:

Quote:

This is probably a dumb question, but since I have not played much past Geneforge 1, I do not know whether there is a sect that opposes the Shapers without advocating creations' rights. Is there such a group?

The Barzites in G2, led by Barzahl and based in a city called Rising, had such a stance. If you've been paying attention to Emperor Tullegolar, you know their philosophy well, because the Tullegolites are basically just Barzites with a new name and leader. There's a reason Emperor Tullegolar is based in New Rising.

Edit: Lord Safey, no more double posts please. If you have something else to say, edit your old post instead.

Dikiyoba.

It does explain much, but Barzhal was never an emperor.

I just hate Barzites in one way: they give canisters to anyone. They should only give to the truly worthy and loyal, such as a Barzite shaper.

[Nioca]

The Barzites wouldn't have shapers if they didn't hand canisters out. Except for Barz(ah/ha)l.

 

--------------------

This post is sponsored by Barzite Bonanza Bazaar. Hundreds of quality canisters for low, low prices!

[Lord Safey]

They did try to pick the best but in the end I think they lacked training. Even in Geneforge one you still get a lot of training. I think that it shows that pure training vs pure agumenation and pure training wins out. However agumenation in addition to training is very powerful but you must not sarifice training at the sake of agumenation. This was the Barzites weakness.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The key difference between Tullegolites and Barzites is that I support a meritocracy, whereas Barzahl, as Good Canisters pointed out, does not. He prefers to just give canister to any idiot passing by as long as they'll cause trouble for his enemies. Sloppy. Plus, it makes the power less coveted if you just give it away. Canisters must be earned through valor and loyalty. However, Barzahl was in a desperate situation, so looking back, I can forgive him.

[Retlaw May]

But Barzahl didn't have time to properly train/recruit people. He was racing against the clock against all the other factions. I bet if he was alone in the mountains he would have been very selective.

[Upon Mars.]

To describe your humanity is quite difficult but i think it a sain man

that hasn't used any drugs and canisters and that his state of mind hasn't been to much shocked or suffered.

But the early shapers could change your mind and perfect it but that knowledge is not lost some canisters perfect your mind it would increase your ability but take of your reason. A mind without the fundamental bases that make you survive in the animal world and that i essential to altruism. That is humanity for my point of view .

[Alberich]

Re: Barzahl, also, don't forget that he had used so many canisters himself as to carry his arrogance far beyond anything we can easily imagine. The notion that anybody else, even another canister user, could be a real threat to him was simply inconceivable.

(The same went for his obnoxious Guardian, whom I assume we all killed simply to "clean the gene pool," no matter what our views on the Shapers in general.) That no doubt gave him a much more relaxed attitude to sharing than any of us would have while we were still ourselves.

 

Re: Ideologies, to my mind one of the interesting aspects of the game is that there is really no faction I can completely sympathize with, not even the Awakened (due to the means they want to use). It's a little like working and voting for real-life candidates instead of the ones we really want to see.

[Lord Safey]

The main problem I have with canisters is not the fact they make you ruthless. Its the fact they make you inceridably arrogant. It is a very serious character flaw that makes you over look threats and can hammpers your ability to work in fruitful organiztions and ruin powerful allainces. Which is why I would choose to use canisters in moderation should they truley exist. Almost every person who went all out on canisters failed because they under estimiated their oppents and over estiamted their own abilities.

[nikki.]

I'd use lots and then edit a SDF so that I would have actually used none.

 

Seriously though, I don't know if I'd use them. People can be manipulated in ways not involving raw power, and I've always been good with words...

[Fort]

The ones who use the canisters will be able to kill off many of the purists who do not. However, they will probably kill each other in the long run as well, so the purists win in the end I suppose. It just may take a very, very long time.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nikki:

 

Quote:

Seriously though, I don't know if I'd use them. People can be manipulated in ways not involving raw power, and I've always been good with words...

So, just the ones that improve your leadership then?

 

Dikiyoba would only use a few, just enough to survive these turbulent times (and get the cool glowing skin) but not enough to lose control.

[Aeshi]

Same as Dikiyoba here.But I would use only the best canisters (aura of flames,create drakon etc.)

[Sudanna]

It would depend if things were available otherwise. If you could simply learn the spells and creations, then Nalyd would never touch a canister. If not, then screw it! Bring on the Tower of Power!