It's the A2Template!

[Xoid]

EDIT: Critique this, now. I command you.

 

---

 

I'm making a scenario that is set inbetween Avernum 2 and 3, taking place (roughly) from Angierach to Almaria. While it is debatable whether the scenario will see light of day. (Yes, it is somewhat large, but I have oodles of time to waste, so that is not the concern...) Regardless, the terrain for these areas is still done.

 

I've got roughly 15~16 of the 49 sections of Avernum 2 recreated, and was wondering if anyone would actually like me post the scenario, before/after I start making towns. (I will not include any NPCS, special encounters, etc.)

 

I primarily envisage people using it as a template for scenarios taking place around that area/time.

 

Note(s): There are subtle differences between Avernum 2's wall configuration and the ones I use - I altered the wall configuration in a few areas so that there was no 'clipping'. Area descriptions also more closely follow the 'contours' of the object they surround now. There are NO terrain #255 "solid stone" and #71 "pit" mixups like in Avernum 2.

 

(What is he talking about, you ask? Ensure you have the Orb of Thralni for most of these, you can walk through the walls in some places... Check out Angierach, the 2x1 pit to the right of Kothtar, and the secret passage past the Lair of Sulfras - where the Jade Halberd is. Sloppy, sloppy, Spiderweb.)

 

Apart from that, I have differed from less than 20 squares of the 2304 squares per section.

[Kelandon]

Sure, send it my way. tomwatts (at) berkeley (dot) edu .

[Archmagus Micael]

Yeah. Same here. When the outdoors is done, send it my way. My email address is

 

micael456 (AT) aol (DOT) com

 

Whether I will see fit to use it or not is another matter, but I was thinking about doing something similar. However, I just don't have the time.

 

Thanks!

 

EDIT: Does this include the Vahnatai Lands? Or just Avernum?

 

- Archmagus Micael

[Archmagus Micael]

UBB = Double Post

[Drakefyre]

... from Angierach to Almaria.

 

Basically, the Great Cave and some stuff west of it.

[Overwhelming]

Send it to me, as well. If you want, I can post it in the Blades of Avernum Center site.

 

boa.center (at) gmail (dot) com

[Thralni]

Yes, sure! Nice idea, And it will be nice to start wandering in Avernum again.

 

B.J.van.Soldt (AT) inter.nl.net

[nikki.]

Ahem:

 

nottmforestweloveu (at) yahoo (dot) co.uk

 

Thanks.

[Poit]

Sure, I'd love a copy

 

loki (underscore) 72 (at) hotmail.com

[Xoid]

Got another trio of sections from around the center of Avernum done ontop of whatever else.

 

@ Drakefyre: Yes, my scenario only fills about 10 sections, but I needed to tack on another two or so sections to prevent the appearence of the world suddenly ending. Got kind of carried away doing that done more than I needed to and figure I might as well finish the job. At a rate of 2-3 sections a day, shouldn't take too long to finish up the entirety of Avernum 2's terrain.

 

@ Archmagus Micael: Didn't think about the Vahnatai. I'll finish up on this [Avernum proper] then most likely end up doing the Vahnatai's lands as well. Damn you for stirring another plot line idea in my head - even If I never get around to making a proper scenario set in the Vahnatai's land, I'm still gonna end up making the terrain for their lands so I at least have the possibility of doing so at a later date.

[Ephesos]

I'd love a copy, personally.

 

EphesosSH (at) aol (dot) com

[Thralni]

I was thinking, are you going to send it when the terrain has been finished? I'm getting very curious...

[Xoid]

Considering that none of you are mind (can't believe I added a 'not', even after the fifth revision of this post, note to self: stop editing my posts, and stop writing posts late at night.) readers I should have made myself clear - sorry about that. The original post was simply to gauge interest in the finished product. I will release it to the public when I'm done recreating the terrain.

 

Whilst I'm on the topic of when I'll have it done: I've currently got about 4/7 of Avernum done, performing clean up on some sections and should be starting on the section containing the Tower of Elderan in 2 days at most.

 

I'm actually unsure of the logistics when it comes to emailing a fair sized attachment over my god-awful and slow modem - so I'm not going to send it to more than a dozen at most for the beta stage.

 

I should have the scenario (terrain only) ready for criticism in a week and a half, two at tops.

[Thralni]

I'm waiting for it to come. I would love to see it! Its a good idea. Are you also going to reconstruct the towns, do you think, or will that be to much work?

 

Anyway, I'm very anxious to see it, but don't make a hasty job of it. Take your time. (But not to much! )

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:

I'm actually unsure of the logistics when it comes to emailing a fair sized attachment over my god-awful and slow modem - so I'm not going to send it to more than a dozen at most for the beta stage.

You can send it to "INSERT ANY NUMBER HERE" of people, and only have to upload the file once, so long as you don't send the emails separately. Example:



And sorry if I inadvertantly caused you to think about the Vahnatai Lands. I've only just gotten past that part myself playing Avernum 2, so it's still fresh in my mind.

- Archmagus Micael

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:
I'm actually unsure of the logistics when it comes to emailing a fair sized attachment over my god-awful and slow modem - so I'm not going to send it to more than a dozen at most for the beta stage.

You are compressing it, right? Zip before you send — this should make it much smaller. And Micael's right: just CC a bunch of people.

[Xoid]

Quote:

Originally written by Thralni, emperor of Riverrod:
Are you also going to reconstruct the towns, do you think, or will that be to much work?

Not a chance in hell of reconstructing all of them. Major towns, (The Castle, Tower of Magi, etc.) are a strong possibility. Primarily dependant on whether others already have, or failing that, I might decide to include it under a second scenario file like I'm (inevitably) going to do with the Vahnatai's lands.

Incidentally, just past Dharmon and the front lines is a section you can never get into - reconstructing this from Avernum 1 would be a highly subjective measure. Fort Spire (or it's ruins would be here. I know for a fact that Jeff never had a full section here - just enough so that can see mostly into it. However - there are two overlooked spots that a very observant person can see the road ends abruptly into this section - one from the Scree Pits (easy to notice), and one from the section Erika's Tower is in (very difficult...) - so things may not line up exactly.

After going through Avernum 1 and investigating that section it is obvious that it will not properly fit into there. I am considering reconstructing this section and simply trimming some squares (approximately 5 to 8 would need to be) from the left edge. From a cursory inspection only a few minor side passages would be lost. Doing that section (Fort Spire's if you've already forgotten) will be a true *****.

(Insert proper name for a female dog, as in I'm putting my b... out to stud, where the astericks are. Funnily enough, I do actually breed labradors. If I ever post about it I'm going to inadvertantly be censored by this infernal bulletin board.)

I'm likely to end up doing it if even a couple of people show interest in my doing so.

Also, I am aware of how to use an email client. And of course I'm going to compress it - regardless of how small it is my connection is slow - even a quarter meg seems to take millenia. (Sorry if all that reads like a snarky comment - I'm grumpy and tired.)

I was merely unable to reconcile what to do if people pop up out of the woodworks, so to speak, and ask for a copy after I've already sent the email off. I'd prefer not to be constantly sending out mass emails if I can - so I'd prefer to keep the "beta" testing group relatively small.

God, can I even call it a beta testing group really? It's not like it's an effort worthy of the name - merely reconstructing someone else's work. For the most part anyway. Might it more appropriately be called: 'poor batch of saps I've conned into bug testing the evidence that I lack a real life'?

G'night people. I'm going to sleep.

[Master Xan]

It's a beta group because you're reconstructing someone elses work in a new form, which it may/may not have been originally designed to have done to it, and because you are changing a few things here and there, so it's not identical to the original.

 

If I remember correctly, the Tower of Magi was copied by somebody for BoE... I've never tried a conversion to BoA, but I'd think the basic terrain should transfer over without too much trouble, so you'd just have to check it all for accuracy. Much quicker than doing the whole thing yourself. There may also be other towns copied for BoE, but I'm unaware of any others that were not included inside a scenario, but merely the town.

 

If you upload it to a website, you can merely provide the link and anybody coming out of the woodwork can get it, without you needing to continually upload it. If you lack a website, I'm sure somebody around here would be willing to offer you some space on theirs. (I'd do it, except my host went down several months back and I haven't gotten around to finding a suitible replacement yet. Poor AloofHosting...)

[Xoid]

I am aware of why exactly beta test/ers/ing should apply regardless of my gut feeling that the effort is 'unworthy' of the title. So I'll be sticking with 'poor batch of saps I've conned into bug testing the evidence that I lack a real life'. For brevity it shall be shortened to beta test/ers/ing depending on what is referenced.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:
I was merely unable to reconcile what to do if people pop up out of the woodworks, so to speak, and ask for a copy after I've already sent the email off.

In that case, your friendly neighborhood beta testers can send it out for you. Heck, I could host it for download if you wanted.

[Xoid]

That would be very much appreciated Kelandon. For now though I'll be getting back to work, as I've been slacking off. Mainly reading too many webcomics for my own good. And being too wordy.

[Xoid]

An update if anyone is interested: I've completed the section with Bargha & Harston in it, almost finished the section with Formello in it. Over 30 sections done so far - including a reconstruction of the Chasm of the Spire - as accurated as possible given the circumstances.

 

By either the end of this week or the beginning of next I should have it completed. Would have had it sooner but the Waterfall Warrens were a true pain to reconstruct, that and unavoidable cave giants keep getting in the way of my surveying in the "Giant Infested Lands" section.

[Xoid]

Argh... never been too into using forums, here's hoping that bumping this thread by posting after myself isn't considered double/triple/whatever posting.

 

An update for anyone who hasn't forgotten about this little project of mine:

 

Reasons Why I Got Side-tracked This Week

• Car troubles.
• High school graduation ceremony.
• I got sick.
• Needed a break.
• Read too many webcomics.
• Relatives visited.

To put it in a nutshell; it is unlikely that it'll be ready until the end of the month. If Kelandon or Overwhelming really want to host the incomplete alpha, I'll send it along.

Note: Although all of the A2 areas are done are mostly correctly done - I'm not perfect - there is likely to be at least 1 screwup somewhere... - I've started to reconstruct a couple of sections that were inaccessible in A2 from the accessible version in A1. As such they will not fit in perfectly.

[Overwhelming]

Sure! Just send it with your author name and a small description to:

 

boa.center (at) gmail (dot) com

 

Take your time.

[Xoid]

Oops. I thought there was another seven sections to do, apparently there were only about four. I've done all that I can do - sections that I couldn't enter in A2 remain mostly incomplete. (Mainly to the north of Erika's Tower and west of Staging Ground D,which is just west of the Mass Teleporter.)

 

I have sent the complete-est possible alpha off to Kelandon and Overwhelming, hopefully there is nothing wrong with it. Or any obvious and stupid mistakes that'll make me red faced, for that matter.

 

There is an excess row and column of sections to the left and bottom of the scenario - this has to do with the fact that the riverways right at the edge in at least four sections. You could trim them, but I included them for completeness.

 

@Overwhelming: My email to you bounced - not sure why. Will retry in the morning.

[Archmagus Micael]

Cpeters.

 

Can you email it to me as well?

 

micael456@AOL.com

 

Thanks!

 

- Archmagus Micael

[Kelandon]

This looks pretty awesome. I can host it for you — what would you like the page to say?

[Thralni]

Did you send it already? Cause I didn't get it as yet.

[Kelandon]

Well, it's hosted on this page . If you'd like me to change anything, I can.

[Xoid]

@Kelandon

Sorry for not responding promptly but I 'work' irregular hours - much like Jeff really come to think of it. I don't have any problems with the page, but adding a link from http://home.sanbrunocable.com/~tommywatts03/ to http://home.sanbrunocable.com/~tommywatts03/A2Template.html seems logical. If I've just overlooked an already present link, then disregard this.

 

Also, forgive my ignorance, but the *.sit format, I'm assuming this is Mac's native archive format? I'm sure I've got a utility that can open *.sit files, but do other Windows users? (Does it even matter really? Isn't almost every scenario maker a Mac user?)

 

Either way if the link that says "Avernum 2 Template v1.0.zip" is pointing to a *.sit file as it seems to be doing... that's misleading.

 

@Archmagus Micael:

I've just sent it to you, it is in *.zip format (don't have a utility that can create *.sit files, but aren't you a Windows user anyway?) Otherwise grab it from Kelandon's site.

 

@Overwhelming:

I have no idea why Hotmail hates me but it wont send you the file, sorry about that. Either that or I'm somehow screwing up your email address.

 

@Anyone even mildly interested in this...

Please, give the scenario a once over and report any stupid mistakes to me: xoid (at) hotmail (dot) com

 

Finally: I should have documentation listing deliberate changes from A2's terrain in a couple of days - its mostly done but the prolific swearing in it needs removal - don't ask.

[Kelandon]

For the record, it's in .zip format on my site. The link was bad, but it's fixed.

 

There is already a link from the front page to the host page.

[Xoid]

Sorry, I'm as blind as a bat then. Similar thing happened with Wikipedia earlier today - I really need to get my eyes checked. That and I really need to stop typing.

[Skribbane Freak]

i love it! avernum 2 allover again! this time in BoA! its a great idea and i think it would be a great idea (with premission with JV) remake avernum 2 for BoA

 

just an idea...

[Kelandon]

One should DEFINITELY not make a playable duplicate of A2 in BoA. It would probably violate some copyright laws, serve no purpose (if you want to play A2, play A2, not BoA), and take too much work to justify such a useless end.

 

However, this project (re-making the areas from A2) is different and potentially very useful to designers.

[Xoid]

I could not agree more, Kelandon.

 

@Grape slime: Regardless of the legality - there are so many differences between the two engines that game balance alone could take upwards of four months to tailor suitably. Just the terrain was upwards of an 18/7 endevour(sp?) for two weeks straight (plus a one week hiatus for sheer laziness). Scripting everything in, plus cross platform enabling the scenario (graphics formats people...) makes a singular effort to be improbable in the extreme.

 

It really should have gone without saying:

A complete remake of Avernum 2 that Jeff would be unable to charge people for without investing time on altering BoA's code - for yet another remake - is a very real and totally justified reason for Jeff to sue.

[Skribbane Freak]

true... i dident think about that... oh and one question

 

will there be towns? formello,Gandrik ect. like that? or just outdoors?

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:
Not a chance in hell of reconstructing all of them. Major towns, (The Castle, Tower of Magi, etc.) are a strong possibility. Primarily dependant on whether others already have, or failing that, I might decide to include it under a second scenario file like I'm (inevitably) going to do with the Vahnatai's lands.

Read the thread next time.

And why the new name, Grape Slime? Don't we have enough Archmages floating around?

[Skribbane Freak]

Quote:

And why the new name, Grape Slime? Don't we have enough Archmages floating around?

its my name on AIM

Quote:

Read the thread next time

oh and to the missing that part is cus i had my eyes dialated i couldn't see O_O

EDIT: cant get qoutes to work right >_>

[Ephesos]

Had your eyes dilated? Was it Atropine ?

 

(Sorry, just had to ask... amazing how the stuff from Thuryl's thread keeps popping up elsewhere.)

[Xoid]

Cleanning up of the documentation - 'cause I'm one lazy n00b. Regardless, not a single bug report yet, or someone asking: did '(insert location here) really look like that?'. I have found a couple of niggling little oversights and have about 85% of Silvar done.

 

Currently planning only to do these towns, might include a couple of minor ones that I rebuilding specifically for my planned scenario. Cities/Forts in bold are going to be done last, as they are not intended to be include in the template. If someone asks for one of those in bold to be included, it will be. Version one dot whatever will take longer though.

 

• Almaria
• Angierach
• Blosk
• Castle, The
• Cotra (Repaired)
• Cotra (Ruins)
• Dharmon
• Formello
• Silvar
• Tower of Magi, The (A2 Version)
• Tower of Magi, The (A3 Version)

[Xoid]

REQUEST:

Windows Avernum 2 savegame, high level party is preferable, from someone who isn't a kleptomaniac. This is because my level 46 powergamer / kleptomaniac / wizard / priests have had an... unfortunate tendancy to pick up almost everything that isn't nailed down. So reconstructing the towns, even with a basic inventory is prooving considerably difficult. That is unless you don't want a reconstruction that is even mildly accurate.

 

To anyone wondering: I am not going to include the entire town's items. There are numerous reasons for this. Cheap and useless items: clothing, ropes, buckets, trash, saws, bars of iron, sticks, rocks, etc, will be included. Armour, magic items, weapons, cutlery, crockery, etc, will not be.

 

PROGRESS REPORT:

I have fixed up literally hundreds of errors. Mainly to do with the fact that it is often difficult to differentiate between two floors when the only difference between them is a small gray line in the lower right hand corner. I've added in a couple of area descriptions, some trees, signs, and rocks that I missed the first time round. I have also cleanned up the wall configuration in a couple of spots, and the garden surrounding The Castle is now a lot closer to the original.

 

I won't be releasing this version yet, I still have a dozen sections to clean up, but I've been getting very quick at this, I got through about 30 sections in a couple of hours last night. I am going to wait until I have the bulleted list in the post above done before sending Kelandon this version.

 

This version, once done, will include documentation of deliberate changes, and my reasoning behind them.

[Thralni]

It looks really very, very good. Now that you are planing on making towns it will only get better. What I was just wondering: does making a scenario about only a small part of the Avernum 2 world using this scenario made by Cpeters also against copyrigth laws?

[Xoid]

I could have speculated on what exactly Jeff would find acceptable or not, but I'll refrain. I would prefer him to repsond to this personally.

 

Knowing that Jeff rarely reads the forums, I emailed him, asking him to do so.

[Kelandon]

I'm pretty sure that unless you're copying dialogue and quests and so on, you're fine. I replicated three towns from Avernum 1 in Bahssikava, and he didn't seem to mind.

[Thralni]

I also sent Jeff an email, asking him about this. What I was thinking about: copying the entire Vanhatai lands (not the dark waters, just the Vahnatia lands) and maybe make a scenario in which you are sent from the tower of Magi to the Vahnatai lands in order to help them with something. I'll prbably continue with an other idea which I think is much more interesting, but to have the option is nice.

[Xoid]

This is about as close to a cut-and-paste of the email I received from Jeff. Interesting to say the least, but unsuprising, considering previous emails.

 

Quote:

From : Spiderweb Software Inc. {spidweb(at)spiderwebsoftware(dot)com}

Sent : Tuesday, 11 October 2005 2:42:57 AM

To : "Clint Peters" {xoid(at)hotmail(dot)com}

Subject : Re: Could Jeff settle this, please?

Quote:

This is referring the Avernum 2 Template that I made. There is a question of legality of the scenario, plus any derivatives.

 

Whilst any number of members on the forums could argue the case one way or the other, I would prefer Jeff to state under exactly what conditions legal action would be taken. Preferably on the forums so no mistake could be made.

(Feel free to copy this on the boards.)

 

This is the sort of intellectual property weirdness that gives people fits. Obviously, writing your own version of Avernum 2 from scratch and copying the data files would be a Bad Thing. But remaking Avernum 2 in MY game? Heh heh.

 

I have no idea why you would want to do this ... remaking Avernum 2 would be a TON of work. But heck with it. Go ahead. As long as Avernum 2 is being remade ONLY as a Blades of Avernum scenario, knock yourself out. I'll get a kick out of seeing how far you get.

--

- Jeff Vogel

Spiderweb Software, Inc

www.spiderwebsoftware.com

[Xoid]

Funny that no one deigned to comment on that email. Anyway, an update:

 

I've found an irritating little problem with the BoA editor, when placing a floor underneath a sign, the sign becomes blank. It'll take me a day or two to ensure that every sign has writing on it.

 

I've also nailed down an almost embarrassing oversight: floor 3 - the one with the tiny gray speck at the bottom right is actually placed in the scenario now. That 'green splotchy crap of a cave floor' is also placed where it should be, including under terrain features that almost completely obscure them. Nothing quite like painting a 1 pixel wide border of red over one of those two floors' graphics in Avernum 2 (purple on the other one) and spending three days making your characters wander around aimlessly, 'eh? Boy, do I ever so need a hobby.

 

The itemised list of changes and reasons for them is coming along nicely.

 

Finally, I have completed an almost perfect replica of The Castle, including: creatures, floors, items, terrain, scripting of the little observations 'you' made in Avernum 2, e.g. "This dusty room is packed ceiling high with dressed blocks of stone, cement and other building materials. These supplies are here so that any damaged walls can be quickly repaired."

 

However, there are some problems. The big-arse 1x3 icon high pillar - I've scoured the documentation and found no reference on how to do this. I remember a while back somebody made the claim that is possible, but no reference on how to do it. I also took the liberty of adding three 'stone blocks' to the room that that description belongs to. I'm uncertain as to where a couple of the wandering guards should be placed exactly, so I will try to place them approximately where they are in Avernum 2.

 

The reason I am including scripting already done is because I want the towns in the template to be pre-made, like in Warrior's Grove. The script(s) should be relatively easy to modify.

 

Since I am forced to include a 48x48 town as the first town - at least, I think I am, I reconstructed Patrick's Tower for that one. As an interesting note: Captain Rabin's dialogue says that he has fifteen soldiers under his command, he actually has at least seventeen.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:
The big-arse 1x3 icon high pillar - I've scoured the documentation and found no reference on how to do this. I remember a while back somebody made the claim that is is possible, but no reference on how to do it.

It may not be worth the effort. You can fake it with te_icon_offset_y, I think.

[Xoid]

I've tried screwing around with the offset and had clipping issues, the player being drawn over the pillar. I think it is possible with the bottom 2/3's of the pillar as the terrain, and the top 1/3 as the scond terrain though. Regardless of that, it is almost impossible to place it without altering the wall configuration - and that simply hasn't been very successful.

 

I can try placing it one space lower and having strange offsets, and manually blocking the correct square. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to, particularily if using the resulting pillar would be a counter intuitive task for those using the template.

 

An aside: I hate typos. Especially my own... "is is"... argh. Also, it just occured to me, I never got the 'leave your sanity at the door' greeting, does this only apply to new members, and not those who really only made one or two posts in an obscure thread three years ago?

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:

Quote:

Originally written by CPeters:
The big-arse 1x3 icon high pillar - I've scoured the documentation and found no reference on how to do this. I remember a while back somebody made the claim that is is possible, but no reference on how to do it.

It may not be worth the effort. You can fake it with te_icon_offset_y, I think.

There is a very easy way to fix this. icon offset is for when you have an icon and want an icon on top of that. But, what I understand from what you said, you want an other icon on top of the other two. You simply have to make a third icon of the top of the pillar and place it on a square directly behind the rest of the pillar. I advice you to look at the scenario "A large rebellion"in town number 3. There you have the same pillars (if I think this the type of pilar you mean). if you put an other object, say, a chair, on a spot directly north of were the pillar stands, you'll see that the top of the pillar vanishes.