Avernum 4 Complete Wish List

[Lilith]

Believe it or not, this is a forum, not a fan club.

[Kelandon]

Somewhat flawed, sure. But what game developer isn't somewhat flawed? I think his games are great, but they're a long way from perfect.

 

Others have done much worse, though.

[Drakefyre]

They're the best RPGs of their kind, that's for sure.

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
They're the best RPGs of their kind, that's for sure.

They're nearly the ONLY RPGs of the kind...

I'm not de-valuing them in any way though. They're a great way to spend a few hours when bored, and a lot cheaper than AoM, which I also have.

- Archmagus Micael

[Verelor]

Sadly, pen-and-paper style crpgs are a dying breed. People want Final Fantasy and hackenslashers, I guess. Temple of Elemental Evil, LoM(not really new in any sense...), Neverwinter Nights, and er....nothing else recent I can think of besides Jeff's games at the moment.

 

Even if Jeff's games AREN'T the best of their kind, cheapness sure counts for something.

[Drakefyre]

Inexpensive. Not cheap.

[Alorael at Large]

Neverwinter Nights is much closer to pen-and-paper (it's based on it quite faithfully) than Spiderweb's games. The type of game you want is "retro," which is a nice way of saying games stuck somewhere in the nostalgic mists of yesteryear.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that's all the explanation is needed. Of course most games are like recent games and not older games. Otherwise the style wouldn't be older and remarkable for it!

[Verelor]

Hmmm simpler times: Ultima...Wizardry...Zork...

 

Stupidest Idea Ever: Putting the more important details of your post in your signature which many people miss under the name Aloreal.

[Alorael at Large]

Alorael, please.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see how it's any different from putting the most important information in the last paragraph. You shouldn't discriminate against paragraphs because they have an unusual format!

[Verelor]

Maybe I should ask a mod to pull the plug on this topic. The posts and replies are becoming more off-subject and random by the day.

[Kelandon]

Or perhaps you should just stop posting in it and let it die, if you want it gone.

[Verelor]

Well, not if I can help it, right?

 

Concerning the new topic about a Morrowind to Avernum mod, in my not so humble opinion, it would be absolutely great if Avernum 4 is like Morrowind (though if that will ever happen, it'd be avernum 9, 10, 11, or perhaps 667)

[Mortimer]

Honestly I felt the series was best left finished after BoA myself and that Spidweb should try a new story in a new place, something different.

 

But we will see how this turns out I guess.

 

I semi-agree with some different item graphics, just something to let us see the difference between a stone shortsword and a steel great sword, better still something that shows differences in materials (stone, bronze, iron) though grouping them all together as mentioned above would surfice.

 

Thats all from me.

[Igor]

Definately a new class of magic and stat for it. Example: Bloodmagic, takes hp to cast, most spells are targeted to the casting character only, points in Bloomagic stat increase max hp. Stuff like that.

 

I also think multiple starting points would be an excellent idea.

[Contra]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
Sadly, pen-and-paper style crpgs are a dying breed. People want Final Fantasy and hackenslashers, I guess. Temple of Elemental Evil, LoM(not really new in any sense...), Neverwinter Nights, and er....nothing else recent I can think of besides Jeff's games at the moment.

Even if Jeff's games AREN'T the best of their kind, cheapness sure counts for something.

Liez. Everquest, World of Warcraft, Morrowind, Guild Wars, new Morrowind, are all absed on pen-and-paper statisticts, and are going great (i.e making allot of money).

[Sullust]

Maybe Avernum 4 could be a prequel.

 

"Before the dark times--before the Empire..." (Obi-Wan Kenobi Star Wars: Episode IV, for those who didn't know)

[Timber-Wolf]

To everybody who wants Jeff to go 3D (like that look like morrowind comment) I say go to hell as I dont want to spend a week downloading one of Jeffs games on my pityful Dialup connection plx

[Shadowmaster]

Quote:

Originally written by Timber-Wolf:
To everybody who wants Jeff to go 3D (like that look like morrowind comment) I say go to hell as I dont want to spend a week downloading one of Jeffs games on my pityful Dialup connection plx

Also, not a lot of people were happy with Geneforge 3's graphics (I am one of them). If we stay simple, that should save some annoyances and a lot of complaints about blown-up boat graphics and otherwise. Also, it's that the graphics are sort of a trademark of Avernum, just as the 2D flat animations were trademark of Exile, and 3D graphics are trademark of Geneforge. We're all used to these graphics for these games. Changing the graphics to make them more like Geneforge, and you've torn away a piece of Avernum itself.

[Kelandon]

That's how I feel about the real-time vs. turn-based thing.

[Mortimer]

The stealth spell would make a nice return, I liked going at it commando style back in Exile.

[Sullust]

Oh, so you never put pants on your characters?

[Verelor]

Geneforge is NOT 3-D in any sense of the word. It's isometric 2-d, best to be thought of as fully animated Avernum graphics. And we wouldn't have badly upsized boat graphics and item pics we've seen since Exile 1 if Spiderweb's art team was worth a damn.

 

I'll be off to the Richard White Games boards, to persue more casual conversation. I'll try to add a couple suggestions to the list later.

[Jeros]

I thought the RW board was used to spread spam as I really don't see anything serious going on on those boards.

 

Anyways, Avernum 4 would more than likely look quite similar, if not exactly the same, as the previous 4 Avernum games. (1,2,3, BoA)

 

The only noticable difference that might be made would be a continuing storyline and with all of the stuff from the previous games back.

 

It's just my guess, but I think Mr. Vogel would just stick to what works, even if people think that major changes are needed.

 

I think that they should just make a whole new series of games instead, something fresh and innovative.

[Alorael at Large]

Spiderweb has no art team. It has a budget and a pool of freelancers.

 

If Jeff stuck with what worked, he would never have made Geneforge. Since A4 won't have the same engine, there's no reason for it to have the same graphics.

 

—Alorael, who feels a strong and disquieting sense of deja vu.

 

—Alorael, who feels like he's posting things that he and others have posted before.

[Mortimer]

Quote:

Originally written by Lt. Sullust:
Oh, so you never put pants on your characters?

No, commando is when you don't wear any underwear, pants themselves are fine.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Mortimer:

Quote:

Originally written by Lt. Sullust:
Oh, so you never put pants on your characters?

No, commando is when you don't wear any underwear, pants themselves are fine.

Correction. Commando is when you don't wear underwear with a kilt.

As an actual every day kilt wearer, I felt the need to point this out. I no longer wear pants. At all. Ever. No more chafing and bunching. No more underpants.

Ah, freedom.

And to stay on topic, I would like to see kilts or male unbifurcated garmets (MUG) as a clothing option in AIV.

[Hectonkhyres]

Its fine until a rabid corgie goes and gives you a bloody anatomy lesson. Ouch.

[Student of Trinity]

That's why you need the skean dhu.

[Delicious Vlish]

I dare say a kilt offers more protection in that situation then a pair of troosers.

 

Take a normal kilt, 13 to 22 ounce wool. Now, that's roughly 8 to 9 yards of cloth around your middle. That's roughly 24 to 27 feet of thick heavy fabric. There is a reason they call them tanks. There are two aprons, and piles of pleats. Your dangly bits are well wrapped and well protected. There is also (usually) a heavy sporran hanging in front that keeps everything weighted down ever more. It's going to take a lot of effort and a lot of work for a dog to even find their way through all this fabric.

 

Now, pants... Pants are made from light thin fabric. Anywhere from 4 ounce to 12 ounce, usually in a cotton twill. Most are about 8 ounces. A dog's teeth can puncture right through this with no effort what so ever and they can gnaw on your dangly bits. And there is no sporran, no form for groin protection, nothing slowing down the advancing canine that wants to bite your snausage.

 

Frankly, I'd rather take my chances kilted.

 

And as for the black knife, I agree. It works quite well on anything that might be bothering you, dog or idiot human that tries to lift your kilt.

[Student of Trinity]

You've got to admire a culture in which the traditional formal dress includes a secret sock knife. Though in recent times it has been made less secret, to the point of flashy jewelled hilts. But the 'dhu' part originally meant that it was hidden, at least as I was told when I wore one. And there are suspect traditions about not drawing it except to draw blood, blah blah blah. The main reason not to draw it is to avoid slicing your calf.

[Mortimer]

Heh, my posts seem to generate such wonderful off topics.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
You've got to admire a culture in which the traditional formal dress includes a secret sock knife. Though in recent times it has been made less secret, to the point of flashy jewelled hilts. But the 'dhu' part originally meant that it was hidden, at least as I was told when I wore one. And there are suspect traditions about not drawing it except to draw blood, blah blah blah. The main reason not to draw it is to avoid slicing your calf.

Actually, in polite trusted company or for fancy dress, it is tucked into the sock where people can see. For all other purposes, it is kept hidden, usually tucked away in the reversed pleat or secreted under the outer apron. That's the whole point of the Black Knife.

And you are correct. You don't pull it out in a crowd unless you plan to draw blood... It's rude and if you pull it out suddenly, people will assume you are about to attack and act accordingly. That said, it is perfectly acceptable to pull it out at a table for eating purposes and such.

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, it's only appropriate to pull it out at the table if the meat is very rare.

 

—Alorael, who now wonders if concealed knives are covered by concealed carry laws. It seems at least possible that it's more legal to hide a gun than a knife.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Fissure of Men:
Actually, it's only appropriate to pull it out at the table if the meat is very rare.

—Alorael, who now wonders if concealed knives are covered by concealed carry laws. It seems at least possible that it's more legal to hide a gun than a knife.

That's silly.

In all honesty, most dirks came as part of full kit. There was a little fork and an even smaller knife. It was a practical every day sort of thing. Modern dirks, or Black Knives, are ceremonial tokens. Modern dirks are not suitable for table use. The proper term is Sgian Dubh, which literally translated means Black Knife.

[Student of Trinity]

Mmm, at least for the Highland regiments in the British army (and their colonial affiliates), dirks and skean dhus (the older way of writing it, doubtless less phonetically accurate) are quite distinct pieces of kit. All officers wear skean dhus, tucked halfway into their left socks, just below the knee. Only colonels also wear dirks, which are much bigger, on their belts. The dirk scabbards do indeed often hold tiny forks and other utensils.

 

The only customary use of the dirk at table is when the colonel ceremonially stabs the haggis, at which point the less civilized members present supply the supposed groans of the wounded beast. The second in command of the haggis party then proffers the napkin on which to clean the dirk, and the haggis is marched back off to the kitchen to be dismembered and served. The haggis party retires to a back room and downs a bottle of Drambuie (between them, thank heavens), quickly enough that they return to platters of haggis that are enhanced by a distinct spin.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Mmm, at least for the Highland regiments in the British army (and their colonial affiliates), dirks and skean dhus (the older way of writing it, doubtless less phonetically accurate) are quite distinct pieces of kit. All officers wear skean dhus, tucked halfway into their left socks, just below the knee. Only colonels also wear dirks, which are much bigger, on their belts. The dirk scabbards do indeed often hold tiny forks and other utensils.

The only customary use of the dirk at table is when the colonel ceremonially stabs the haggis, at which point the less civilized members present supply the supposed groans of the wounded beast. The second in command of the haggis party then proffers the napkin on which to clean the dirk, and the haggis is marched back off to the kitchen to be dismembered and served. The haggis party retires to a back room and downs a bottle of Drambuie (between them, thank heavens), quickly enough that they return to platters of haggis that are enhanced by a distinct spin.

For the poor oppressed ragged Scot, the Black Knife was whatever sharp pokey object he could tuck away and keep hidden, so that he could defend himself. And yes, there is a big difference between military and actual civilian tradition. Both are valid. Not every Scot was in the service, though many did because it allowed them to wear their clothes and celebrate their culture. A crappy thing to do to a people, hold their culture hostage.

Sgain Dhub is just about an old of term that you could get... I am a Dhubglas. Meaning Black and Gray. The spelling that you keep posting is a bastardised version, more typical with products bought from Pakistan, ie, the cheap flimsy knockoffs that mimic the real thing.

You are quite correct though, for the most part, with the military tradition. There are however, even older traditions than those. Most so called traditions however, are falsehoods. Highly romanticised crap invented by Holywood or by false oral tradition. Like, hmm, entitlement. With few exceptions, pretty much any person, of any race, can wear whichever tartan they like. But always know the history of it in case you run into the real deal. (Somebody like me that might grill you on what you are wearing and why)

This is not a good place to discuss this though. If you would like, stop by here and you will find a wealth of information. And you can find me there. IM me and I will send you my user name.

I must warn you though, visiting may turn you in to a full time kilt wearer.

[Student of Trinity]

I'm by no means a general expert on highland things, but I spent several years in highland regiments in the Canadian army reserves (pretty much like the British TA). Several Canadian regiments are warmly accepted cadet branches of old British army ones -- the Black Watch, for instance -- and carefully maintain the same traditions.

 

The Canadian Black Watch is based in Montreal, though, where kilts are a bit problematic in winter. Not nearly as bad as one might think, since heat rises, but still you think twice about wearing one all the time.

 

I'm not sure where my skean dhu came from, but it was probably some perfectly pukka source, since it was my father's from the days when the Canadian Black Watch was part of the regular army, after Korea, in the sixties. I think the spelling I use comes from regimental dress manuals, which are a peculiar tradition of their own.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I like DV's spelling better. It's much nicer.

[Student of Trinity]

It is, and I'm sure it's also more correct. I'm just stuck with my own spelling for traditional reasons.

 

Thanks for the link, DV. I already knew enough about what it says of the history of kilts and tartans, to recognize that it is the straight dope. My father used to cite McClintock as an authority for his skeptical attitude to supposed Scottish traditions; but I had never myself seen the contents of his book discussed.

 

I'm afraid I don't actually plan on taking up wearing kilts again, though. I'll be trying to seem as little strange as I can, as a new professor in a German university.

 

The one kilt I have owned was made in Scotland, but I was never happy with the weirdly bright interpretation they made of the famous (and ubiquitous) Government Tartan. A much more cheerful style for a civilian kilt, sure, but I would have been happier with the traditional military version that just looks black from any distance. Grrr. At least they got it pleated to line, in the military way, instead of to sett.

[Delicious Vlish]

A proper winter weight kilt and leggings offers far more protection in deep winder than pants. It's like gloves vs mittens. Mittens keep your hands warmer because of the open space and shared warmth. But you are going to want a heavy weight kilt. Highland regiments wore them in the Great Wars and had fewer problems with frostbite then the soldiers wearing woollen troosers. Like anything else in the winter, you must accesorise properly. A good 16 to 22 ounce kilt will trap in several layers of air and develop a thermal pocket... A space of hot air that will actually drive the cold air out. Wear proper hose, along with leggings, and good boots, and you will be much warmer than those wearing bifurcated garmets. An Iverness Cape or a great coat, proper headgear, and layers of warm breathable fabric around your central torso to lock in core body temperature will keep you quite toasty, sweaty even, even in temps well below zero.

 

I am curious about why you felt kilts were a problem in cold weather. One of two things must have happened. The Canadian Armed Forces must be poorly equipped with second rate equipment, which I sincerely doubt... Or there was a lack of proper accesorisation. Scots have been wearing kilts, and great kilts, in extreme cold conditions for centuries and they have proved to be remarkably hardy.

 

I have an 8 yard heavy weight kilt in the Am Freiceadan Dubh Tartan. (Black Watch) It's quite lovely. It's also to damn heavy and hot to wear in the summer.

 

It's good to see others in touch with traditions.

 

 

Edit.

 

My Black Watch kilt is frequently mistaken for being solid black at a distance. I know exactly what you mean!

[Student of Trinity]

That was the other problem with my Scottish-made kilt: it was very light weight. The army-issue kilts are indeed very heavy, but I never actually wore one in winter. Officers were expected to buy their own, thus my light, bright variant. I couldn't afford to replace it. I didn't complain in the summer, and in the winter I walked briskly to the armory.

[Mortimer]

Ok ... so, in conclusion, Stealth should make a return to Avernum 4 and the new kilt item should give you a 10% resistance bonus to cold attacks.

 

Heh, sorry.

[Drakefyre]

Yes, this kilt conversation would be better suited to PMs.

[Student of Trinity]

Aw, and I thought Mortimer had us covered brilliantly. Well, maybe A4 will include haggis as a substitute for those endless mushrooms, and then the impartial judgement of history will absolve us.

Until then, no more irrelevance. Irrelevance never forget.

[Contra]

"Commando" -> Pants -> Kilt -> Scotts -> Scottish culture -> Scottish weapon customs -> Appropiate behavior with drawing weapon and the use of it -> Scotts in Canada? -> Canadian Army?

 

I lost track in the end, but that is how this conversation has developed, right?

 

Here is a more intresting question: What the hell has this to do with Avernum 4? Get back to the topic, maybe.

[Verelor]

cries* T_T

 

What in the hell? Take this outright spam to the Richard White boards! Leave my sacred topic alone! Amazing how you lamebrains can take Avernum 4 suggestions conversation and sling it all the way to the finer points of kilt wearing.

[Lilith]

One of the pillars of SW forum culture is that you don't have any ownership over the topics you make, and you can't expect them to stay on topic forever. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Kelandon]

Feel proud you've created a successful topic, though. My best effort resulted in a 10-pager, but that was on General. I can't say I've done anything in the game boards that has beaten more than a few pages.

 

At any rate, it might be best to let this topic die a natural death at this point, unless anyone else has something genuinely interesting to add.

[Igor]

It would be interesting if you could equip a dagger in a secondary weapon slot to give a bonus to assassination

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
Well, maybe A4 will include haggis as a substitute for those endless mushrooms.

Have you forgotten the delightful "weird meat" strewn throughout Avernums 1-3?

—Alorael, who doesn't see how a knife would help with assassination since, in Avernum, assassination seems to be the face-to-face kind, not the subtle kind. A successful Avernite assassin wears plate armor, carries a halberd, and probably sprays blood everywhere when carrying out his job.