Avernum 4 Complete Wish List

[BigBob]

Quote:

Originally written by Fear or Favor?:
Exile has undead turning in the same way as Avernum: spells.

Avernum has a single area spell: Cloud of Blades. It's not a fireball. I agree that the endless spells of dubious utility were fun, and area spells actually made combat require a little bit of thought.

Since the XP cap vanished in A3/BoA, I doubt we'll see it again. But you never know.

—Alorael, who isn't sure about free graphics engines. If the graphics aren't free, they're still a cost. If they're large, it hurts Jeff's mission of making his games downloadable to everyone. If they're free, then he risks having his game look like it's made with free graphics, which is "less professional" or something. And if the engine is 3D, Jeff has to program around that. 3D isn't Exile/Avernum, either.

A3 had the skill cap... I remember because I stopped playing around when I reached the golems for the first time. I had hit the cap. Can you imagine playing an RPG for another 20 hours without a single level gain? Yikes...

[Drakefyre]

I gained levels all the way through ...

[Kelandon]

BigBob: If you actually want to address Jeff, you should probably e-mail him. He doesn't read these boards.

 

Also, you're mixing up some terminology. None of the Avernums have had a skill cap that you would ever reach (~100). A1 and A2 had level caps that were somewhat painful. If there was one in A3, it was much higher — I don't remember hitting it.

 

BoA is pretty much free from that cap, though, so I doubt A4 will have any problems with it.

 

In general: Jeff has already finished the engine, presumably. We do know that is new. How new is uncertain, though.

[Verelor]

Ok, not being able to level up anymore was far from enough to make me actually quit playing the great game... It wasn't that bad as I remember it, but yea, it was lame all the same.

 

Character cuztomization doesn't feel quite there yet in Avernum series (the generally linear spell progressions don't help either!), so a D&D-style feats mechanic will truly help that.

[Igor]

Okay, for those of us who don't play DnD, what are feats?

[Alorael at Large]

Every few levels you can pick a feat, which gives you a boost in something, a new ability, a new way to use an old ability, or something of the like. Sometimes you have to have some prerequisite feat or abilities already. They're much akin to perks in Fallout, if you're familiar with those games, and I'm sure other games have examples as well.

 

They come down to a form of character customization based on adding a number of single things from a list instead of increasing a number (although some feats/perks do just increase numbers).

 

Put another way, feats are exactly like traits in Avernum, except you get new ones every few levels and sometimes you have to meat requirements before you can add it to a character.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't like the idea of feats in Avernum, as he said. He doesn't even love levels. Nethergate's skill system was great even if it was slightly abusable.

[VCH]

No I meant tea-totting. Just like gun-totting, book-totting, note-totting, and whatever else can be totted aii.

[Drakefyre]

"Toting." Tea-toting.

[Verelor]

Where would the third game be set? If at all possible, spanning the entire world.

[Ephesos]

Setting? Hm... this has definitely been debated (and is still far from settled), but I think that the best settings would be either deep in Vahnatai lands or deep in Empire territory (i.e.: the capital province).

 

Basically, you need somewhere a little fresh (i.e.: not Valorim), unless you pay immense attention to the details of what's left in that area at the game's time (i.e.: Tower of Magi between A2 & 3). However, it can't be too far removed from the action, though the Vahnatai would likely make sure that everywhere on the surface is involved/attacked.

 

Thus, for freshness and connection to the plot, it should either be the Empire's capital or the Vahnatai homelands.

[Alorael at Large]

The vahnatai lands of A2 are the vahnatai homeland for the particular clan seen in A2 and A3. Whoever is left with Rentar-Ihrno is probably settling a new area, which wouldn't be any more impressive than the new cities and old ruins in A2.

 

—Alorael, who would like a little bit of Jeff's take on the slith homeland. If he threw in Lost B in A1, the least he could do is give it some thought in A4. Just a little reference would do.

[Verelor]

I've added a new suggestion about removing the level caps. They were pointless and some people disliked them so much they stopped playing the game.

[Verelor]

And let me stress the importance of the next Avernum game having good graphics. There are many gamers in this world that say graphics matter for nothing and all other elements of the game such as interaction and gameplay and story only matter. Well, that's a plain lie. Graphics and captivating music are as important to enjoying a game as any other element. Avernum 4 doesn't have to have beautiful graphics and certainly not polygonal graphics but passable graphics are a must if after 10 years Jeff wishes to bring his company to common knowledge.

 

Don't tell me what Jeff CAN'T do, because he sure proved there was a whole lot he CAN do with his Geneforge trilogy.

[Kelandon]

If you want flashy graphics and music, you may be playing games from the wrong company. Jeff has tossed music entirely overboard and has no real way of creating any at this point, short of hiring an entirely new person. Also, GF's graphics were hardly spectacular by NWN or WoW standards, so I don't think that shows much of anything.

 

Gameplay is what SW is known for, and that's what I hope Jeff sticks with in A4.

 

EDIT: I think that A4's graphics will look a lot like GF's graphics, for what that's worth.

[Dolphin]

Quote:

Originally written by Manhood Typing Kelandon:
I think that A4's graphics will look a lot like GF's graphics, for what that's worth.

The one thing I don't want to see in A4 is for it to turn into GF, oh well.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
And let me stress the importance of the next Avernum game having good graphics.

Oh, good. I missed it the first few times it came up! And as I already said, while graphics are nice, there is definitely such a thing as too much of them (not that Spiderweb is at risk of that!).

The level cap simply isn't there in A3/BoA. Really. I don't expect it to come back.

—Alorael, who risks exposing his inner evil dictator as he suggests that you edit posts to add more text instead of double posting.

[Verelor]

If Avernum 4 turns out to be Geneforge 3 in Avernum clothing, it would, in fact, be lame. It would only help, however, if Avernum 4 borrowed a few Geneforge elements.

 

This is yet another shameless plug for the little-known but great game Lords of Magic, but I'd like to see something a little more in the flavor of that when SW gets to starting a new series.

 

It would be of benefit if SW finally changed those old item graphics they feel like shamelessly recycling for every new game.

 

I notice all of Geneforge games and Avernum games use bitmap (.bmp) images for all the graphics files in their games. Bitmaps are outdated, unprofessional, and worst of all take up way more memory than they should. If Jeff makes a much more good looking game for Avernum 4 but switches to a better, smaller image type like JPEG or GIF, the file size would just about balance out anyway.

 

Finally, to the person who said prismatics like a prismatic wall spell would be too D&D-like, bow to my geekness! Item number 495 in Avernum 3 is prismatic mail, and number 473 is a prismatic torc!!!

[Lilith]

High-technology graphics aren't the same as good graphics. Polygonal graphics, for example, still haven't reached the point where they can look as pretty as 2D art. And frankly, games with plain old 2D tile-based graphics are often a lot more playable than isometric or 3D graphics, which both make navigation confusing at times even when done well.

 

I'm not entirely sure why you think the item graphics need changing; they look nice enough and you can tell what they're meant to represent.

 

By the way, JPEG and GIF aren't really appropriate for the sort of graphics Jeff works with. JPEG is bad for small, detailed images, and GIF only supports 256 colours. PNG would be a better choice (although file sizes aren't always as impressively small). Unfortunately, Jeff's probably going to work with what he finds easiest to work with, because he is by his own admission not exactly the world's greatest programmer.

[Verelor]

GIF is only a max of 256 colors? That sucks, but I guess you learn something every day.

 

About the item graphics: it's not that they are bad or anything, it's just the exact same ones we've all seen for years.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
About the item graphics: it's not that they are bad or anything, it's just the exact same ones we've all seen for years.

All of Jeff's games so far have been written in the English language. Does that mean he should start writing his games in Esperanto for the sake of adding a little variety?

[Drakefyre]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
Where would the third game be set? If at all possible, spanning the entire world.

Do you have any idea how big the world is? Avernum 4 wouldn't be out for years.

Graphics are important to enjoying a game, but just because they're advanced doesn't mean that they'll make the game more enjoyable. Exile's graphics make me enjoy the game much more than Avernum's or Geneforge's.

Level caps do not exist in Avernum 3 and Blades of Avernum.

Jeff currently uses BMPs and PICTs for his graphics, since they're the easiest to program (or something). I wouldn't mind seeing PNGs either, since they'd be instantly more cross-platform.

[Verelor]

Quote:

All of Jeff's games so far have been written in the English language. Does that mean he should start writing his games in Esperanto for the sake of adding a little variety?

No, considering he has a dominantly english-speaking demographic of players. You're changing the scenario here anyway by giving an example of language.

[Drakefyre]

He also has a dominantly "liking the old item graphics" demographic.

 

And you'd be surprised by the number of non-native English speakers who play and register the games.

[Kelandon]

By that logic, he should make a quarter of his games in Finnish.

[Verelor]

How the hell would you play one of his games if you couldn't understand english, specially since half the fun is plot development. It's like impossible, much less to enjoy them.

[Alorael at Large]

If the Finnish element of the population can learn English, we can learn Finnish. It's only fair.

 

—Alorael, who agrees that Esperanto is probably the fairest to everyone, although it gives the romance language speakers a slight advantage. Nobody speaks it.

[Soltedas]

I suppose one way you can avoid, or at least postpone the level cap is to give your characters plenty of advantageous character

traits. I find leveling up slowly more satisfying, it's more of an event. And I take pleasure in knowing that my characters have innate ability.

 

A punchline in the gut is right. It is possible to learn other languages besides your own.

[VCH]

I vote for French. I didn't spend 13 years taking French classes for nothing I hope. Maybe I did. Probably.

[Kelandon]

Nethergate should have been written entirely in Latin. Or better, entirely in Latin on the Roman side and entirely in a Celtic language on the Celtic side.

[Soltedas]

Even better would be for all text to be written in symbolic code, decipherable only through long hours of study at a (secret) area at spiderwebsoftware.com.

[Verelor]

---ENGLISH---

[Igor]

Mandarin Chinese.

[Verelor]

To get back on track here, Avernum 4 would only benefit from the option to select and play ind ifferent languages. I doubt this is very high on Jeff's priority list, though, if at all.

[Sullust]

Translation often leads to some loss of meaning and depth from the original text; of course, it has to be there in the first place for it to be lost...

[VCH]

40. The ability to play the Empire side or whatever supposed enemy happens to be present.

[Thralni]

Talking about Nethergate and Latin, I loooove Latin! Greek I actually just find annoying with that other alfabet. I some games could be in Dutch though, that would be nice, I think. Of course much of you wouldn't understand what the people say, would you.

[Xen]

My one big hope is that it has an outdoors; that was the worst thing about geneforce, thier was no actual outdoors to it; the reason I got addicted to the exile when I was little (I guess mabey 10, or 12 years ago, when i was 6,7, or 8), and eventually thier avernum remakes was the feeling of exploration out in the country side, discovering, adventuring; geneforge ultimatelly spoils that, by making everything in thes elittle self contained segments of a map, which feel, and play through like a dungeon in the exile, or avernum games, and not a true walkabout in the country side.

 

for such a gameplay factor, i woudl eagerlly trade in a new game engine; besides, its unlikelly I'll be able to make myself a customized charicter art work in a new game engine, and while modding dosent seem to have ever been a big part of the game, and so its not much to consider, it is still perhaps somthing.

[Verelor]

Hmm true actually in Avernum 1-3 you can mod all the images and change the graphics to fit your needs if you really feel like doing it. A program called Heromachine would help you make the replacement image. Probably isn't too legal to distribute the demo with ANY modifications, tho.

[Bruskrud]

29.- I can think of few things more fun than the ability, limited or not, to buy or construct your own fort in this game or take a political position in a small town or earn ranks as a general. I'm sure I am getting rabid skeptics at this point, but what could this sort of frankly awesome interaction hurt if it is OPTIONAL?

_________________________________________________

 

i would move this on up on the top of the list if it was me. Cause that would be so freaking nice. If you could handle problems for you town and declare independence, or war. having to pay htte bills coudl be a problem. chase bandits of you farmers fields. make skribbane ilegal. Maybe being destroyed totally by a large city/country/province and come back 5 years later for revenge

 

i mean you would live 100% into the game if it was you own fort/city/town/village/camp/(and meny more)

 

it would also add some strategic to the game which i think it lags a little in, in the other avernum series

 

btw i agree in basicly everything thuryl has written

[Alorael at Large]

Yes, it would be nice, but to work well it would have to be an entire subsystem within Avernum. Avernum is not a strategy/civ game, and making it one would add mountains of complexity and make it, well, not an Avernum-style RPG.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see what optional has to do with it. Most people would probably like the chance, but optional or not it would require a huge new amount of thinking, designing, and programming. It also doesn't fit the septuagenarian eskimo demographic that Jeff targets.

[Verelor]

This topic is dying fast, so how bout I say something as another good suggestion: when I said Avernum could be improved if it was more like Geneforge, I certainly didn't mean remove the overworld. It would be terrible if Spidwerweb Soft did that.

[Boeing]

Don't know if this has been suggested before...

 

Some kind of item filtration in the 'get items...' screnn would be really nice. Especially after defeating a large group of human opponents, where every single one of them has some kind of armor, weapon, shield, boots, etc it can be really troublesome to check all the items to see if theres something good in there. Maybe every item of the same type could be grouped inte one icon, so it would say something like "Poor Leather Armor (5)" intead of showing all five. This way it would be much easier to find the better equipment, and it would look so much cleaner.

[Verelor]

Maybe, just maybe. The tem systems are hardly the worst of the issues to be dealt with, though.

[Alorael at Large]

The red outlines on magic items introduced in BoA help immensely.

 

—Alorael, who agrees that "foo X15, bar X9" would be much easier on the eyes and pattern recognition skills.

[Verelor]

Before this post becomes indefinitely fossilized, let me say this: How long do you think it would take before Jeff takes Avernum series or one of his other games to full 3-D? I know that really isn't Jeff's cup of Tea, but games with 3-D graphics is well over a decade old and these days almost as easy to create as 2-dimensional ones. Seeing the world of Avernum in polygonal 3-D (even if it's jsut original Everquest quality) would be quite compelling.

 

Edit: Something like the Lithtech engien would be a superb choice, since nowadays that engine is practically free to design on.

[Kelandon]

It seems unlikely ever to happen. Again, graphics have never been a priority for SW; gameplay goes above all else.

 

But honestly, who among us would actually know? Maybe he'll be possessed by the graphics demon right after he makes A4 and decide to spend huge amounts of money turning GF4 into Myst-quality graphics.

[Sullust]

That would be a waste of money since he knows his core fan base would buy it even if the graphics weren't all that great...

[Verelor]

Actually compelling storylines come first in his games, gameplay next (with little in the way of innovation, I might add).

 

Jeff still hasn't lost his dignity as a PC game developer (I hope). He's not simply going to do what sells best in his games. As I exactly stated before, using certain methods 3-D games can be jsut as cheap and easy to make now as 2-D ones. Everyone should get their heads out of the dern 1992 gutter.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
Actually compelling storylines come first in his games, gameplay next (with little in the way of innovation, I might add).

Based on conversations he's had with Blades designers (dig around in BoA for an early four or five page topic), I'd have to say that plot comes second to gameplay. E3/A3? GF3? By the third installment in a series, he's clearly still working on gameplay and interface, but it's not as clear that he's working on plot.

Quote:

Jeff still hasn't lost his dignity as a PC game developer (I hope). He's not simply going to do what sells best in his games.

There are those around here who would vehemently disagree with you. I will go only so far as to say that in interviews and his public comments, he talks a lot about money.

Quote:

As I exactly stated before, using certain methods 3-D games can be jsut as cheap and easy to make now as 2-D ones. Everyone should get their heads out of the dern 1992 gutter.

We're not just paleophiles. We're basing our opinions on Jeff's game-design methods and his public statements. He buys all his graphics from independent sources (generally Andrew Hunter). If he institutes an entirely different engine, he has to buy an entirely new set of graphics — which he has done once before, I might add, going to Nethergate, and sort of again when he went to Geneforge, so it's not out of the question.

So yes, it would be more expensive to create a full 3D engine than to stick with the iso-3D that he's got, at least the way that Jeff would do it.

[Verelor]

The way you're describing Jeff, you're making him sound like a somewhat flawed game developer.