The nephilim language

[Thralni]

It is very hard to make you understand what i mean. the R in R, Ra and Re is pronounced the same, but it is the E in rE and the A in rA that makes the difference. Is it possible that I mean an A or E as an uvular trill, which is pronounced as RA and RE?

[Kelandon]

It would help if you explained what the actual difference is. I have some guesses as to what you mean, but I can sit here guessing phonetic terms all day and we'll get nowhere. What do you hear as the difference between the normal R, the RA, and the RE?

 

EDIT: Okay, I finally got sick of this and found some audio clips online.

 

Here's rad . Here's wasser . The difference I hear between the first R and the second is that the first one is distinctly trilled and the second one is not so much. Is that what you're talking about? If not, is there a clip on this page that illustrates what you're talking about?

 

And if it's actually the vowel that's different, not the consonant, please explain what the difference is.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Thralni, The flying Dutchmen:
It is very hard to make you understand what i mean. the R in R, Ra and Re is pronounced the same, but it is the E in rE and the A in rA that makes the difference. Is it possible that I mean an A or E as an uvular trill, which is pronounced as RA and RE?

First you said that the Rs were different. Now you seem to be saying they're the same and that it's just the vowels that follow them that are different. Which is it?

[ef]

That alveolar trill, Kel, you'll still hear it a lot in Switzerland, though not in Austria or Germany.

 

Thralni, try as I may, I don't quite get the difference between 'Ramstein' and 'Recht'. People with very throaty voices, who place the vowels almost in their throats instead of their mouths may have to adapt a bit, is that what you mean?

 

The page Kel linked to gives 'Wasser' and 'Rad' as examples. The pronounciation of 'Rad' is utterly correct for an 'R' at the beginning of a word. But you know how it is, everyday language tends to be slurry and not always precise phonetically, so often the 'R'-sound at the beginning of words resembles something in between 'Rad' and 'Wasser'. It's just not so precise anymore.

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
It would help if you explained what the actual difference is. I have some guesses as to what you mean, but I can sit here guessing phonetic terms all day and we'll get nowhere. What do you hear as the difference between the normal R, the RA, and the RE?

Okay, the RA in RAd is exactly the RA sound I mean. for RE, leave out the A and place there a E instead. Now ponounce it the same way as you did with RAd, but now say REd. For a simple R leave out the vowel, and just use an uvular trill. It's not so hard, it just takes a long time before we finnaly understand each other.

Quote:

Thralni, try as I may, I don't quite get the difference between 'Ramstein' and 'Recht'. People with very throaty voices, who place the vowels almost in their throats instead of their mouths may have to adapt a bit, is that what you mean?

Ef, when you pronounce the RE and RA in those two words, you hear no difference? That is strange, actually. Either you don't pronounce it as a German would pronounce it, or you try but it doesn't work out. I do hear a difference, and I hear it quite well.

Quote:

First you said that the Rs were different. Now you seem to be saying they're the same and that it's just the vowels that follow them that are different. Which is it?

The R is the same, but the vowel that follows the R makes the sound lightly different. One may say now that it's actually the same letter, but it changes when a different vowel is after it. No. that is nonsense, for several reasons, which I'll only state if somebody asks for it. I don't have the time at the moment to start explaining that too. I have a scenario to finish, too.

[Lilith]

ef is a German, so she probably does pronounce it as a German would.

[Thralni]

Thought so. I remembered something, but I wasn't sure. So, if she does pronounce it correctly, then I don't understand that she doesn't hear a real difference. Maybe I pronounce it differently, as I maybe learnt it differently; however, my teacher is german, so i doubt that.

[ef]

That's why I asked 'where' in your mouth you form the vowels. You see, as a former singer and actor I've had quite an intensive phonetic training. Once the vowels are placed correctly, the placing of the 'R'-sound does not have to be adapted. It stays put, so to speak. With 'throaty' vowels, the placing of the 'R'-sound changes slightly, to make space for and adapt to the vowel. But that would be true for all vowels then, so for 'i', 'o', 'u' as well.

 

edit: Ringelnatz, read by Gerd Boysen, an actor of some renown. Quite a few 'R's here, some close to trills. Kuttel Daddeldu

[Kelandon]

Thralni: You keep saying, "There's a difference," "I hear a difference," "A difference exists," but you have never actually said what the difference is. That's what is making this so hard.

 

You can keep saying, over and over again, that one should just pronounce it the way that a German would pronounce an R, an RE, and an RA, but that hasn't made sense before, so it's not likely to make sense when you repeat it. Say something else!

 

I think you just mean that the R is somewhat assimilated to the pronunciation of the following vowel, but that would be true of all vowels, as ef said, and it probably wouldn't be unique to the R, given how quickly the language must be spoken.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

excuse my absence, ive been busy. ill just ignore the last written page.

 

ive read the wikipedia definitions on Rs, and again, the site has shown its worthlesseness. ive seen many stupid and wrong explanations before on wikipedia, but that really takes the cake, since its not subjective at all. the german r is an alveolar one. it tended to uvular 100-50 years ago, and even then only partly.

dont trust wikipedia, trust an ihrno. i give my balls for the alveolar.

[Thralni]

I have the feeling this will become such a discussion as we had about the genitive. That worries me, to be honest.

 

Now what exactly is it you want! Do you ask for a differenc ein terms of pronunciation (what I have tried to give for the last two days), or do you mean a difference in terms of meaning? Lets try to make that clear first.

 

And I really don't see what the problem is. If I could just speak to you, the problem would be solved in minutes, but then again, this is a forum. Speaking to the computer doesn't have any use. recording can't be done too, as I don't have a place to upload it.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

describe the pronounciation in another way, simply. what we were discussing about was why the previous explanations were problematic.

[ef]

I'm curious now. Rent-an-Ihrno, let me change to german to clarify the uvular/alveolar problem. Wie formst du ein 'R'? Mit der Zungenspitze oder mit der Rachenmandel (Zäpfchen)? Zungenspitze (tip of the tongue)=alveolar, Rachenmandel (uvular)=uvular.

 

edit: you can upload it to your website, Thralni, and link to it.

[Thralni]

Okay, what I now want to know, is which of the letters you don't understand how to pronounce? all? the RA, RE or R?

 

I don't think I can upload it, ef. The file will be approximately 5 mb, and I can't upload that, for all I know, although it wwould be quite nice for the user to have a sound...

[ef]

If you want to, mail it to me. I'll try to cut it down in size, upload it to my online archive and you can link to it from there.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

mit der zungenspitze. das etwas in den rachen verschobene r, das ich noch nicht als uvular bezeichnen würde, kommt zwar vor; aber selten. die regel ist mit der zungenspitze, so seh ich das und kenn ich das. ein paar seltsame deutsche städtchen ignoriert.

[Thralni]

I got a visitor today who will stay until sunday. Her name is jaenette Fincke, and she is a specialist in Hurrian. She already helped me with defining certain cases and explaining the verb sina a better way. In the weekend I'm hoping to put the modifie pages on, as until the weekend I'll be busy with the scenario which will be finished on today or romorrow (I hope).

 

How much testing should I do before the beta call?

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Thralni, The flying Dutchmen:
How much testing should I do before the beta call?

Play it all the way through at least once and make sure that it's finishable. That's the bare minimum. Your beta testers will probably like you better if you actually do most things in the scenario that are possible (talk to everyone, finish all the quests) to make sure that all of the side things work, but at the very least, make sure it's finishable.

[Lilith]

Don't drive yourself crazy trying to find every bug, though. No matter how hard you try, your testers will find bugs you won't even have thought to look for. If you've tried everything you can think of and made it work, your scenario is ready for beta.

[Thralni]

I have started alpha testing it, and quite thoroughly, as you guys said.

 

I uploaded modified versions of the verbs pages to my website. Thanks mrs. Jaenette fincke, who helped making the language more logical.