Can't find second angel in Grah Hoth's fortress

[Traute Springer-Yakar]

According to the angel in the secret passage on the way to Grah Hoth's fortress, there's supposed to be another angel inside the fortress due west of a totem. That way  a party could avoid drinking from the poisoned fountains and losing  lots of XP.  I killed Grah Hoth, no problem, but had to drink from the fountains, as I couldn't find the totem (and the angel), not in this game nor in the last one.

So, where is that totem?

Best regards, Traute

Edited July 25, 2020 by Traute Springer-Yakar

[Ess-Eschas]

Hello Traute,

 

You didn’t find the totem because you’ve been looking in the wrong place! The clue you’re provided with is a little vague, and requires the party to do something that’s a little counter-intuitive, so it can be a little confusing. I recall it taking a little while to figure out on my first go through, too.

 

Here’s the clue the spirit gave you in the outdoors near the Fortress:

 

“One of us went spying in his tower. She is hidden due west of the totem. Go to her. Good luck.”

 

Note that the spirit says ‘went’ rather than ‘is’. In other words, the spirit was spying in the tower, but she isn’t any longer! You can find her in the same part of the outdoors as the first spirit. Look around there for the totem, and follow the instructions in the clue. The slightly counter-intuitive part is this:

 

Spoiler

You need to walk away from the Fortress a little way to find the totem.

 

Also, I hope you found the Mace of Augvah! It’s a unique weapon, one that’s only present in Exile I – it never appears again in any future game, or in any of the remakes. You can find it in the same part of the outdoors!

[Traute Springer-Yakar]

Hello Ess-Eschas,

Thanks a lot, I found the place though the angel must have left, seeing that I'd already killed Grah Hoth. But the mace was still there, and I'm sure that I'd never found it before, neither when I played the Exiles 22 years ago nor in my previous game. I wonder what my bashed weapons specialist will make of it, her skill is currently at 15 and she's a double wielder.

BTW I've given two or three lvls of priest spells to fighter 2 and 3 at the start of the game, so they wouldn't waste their turns but make themselves useful by casting Wound, a much underrated spell IMHO.

Best regards,

Traute

[Ess-Eschas]

16 minutes ago, Traute Springer-Yakar said:

Thanks a lot, I found the place though the angel must have left, seeing that I'd already killed Grah Hoth

 

That would certainly be in keeping with Spiderweb's style. However, just to be safe, you should know that the second spirit is behind two secret passages. The one to the west of the totems is only the first one. If you've not found a special dot yet, you've not found the right location!

 

Wound is an excellent spell, and your approach seems like a sound one to me. Amongst other things, I believe Wound partially ignores some creature resistances and immunities, so it can be a very effective way of damaging foes. Notably, it later games, it can actually be used to harm 'invulnerable' creatures, without enough patience!

[Randomizer]

Wound is extremely useful since it goes past resistances that almost all other magical spells don't.  It's probably why it got removed in remakes.

[Traute Springer-Yakar]

Quote

If you've not found a special dot yet, you've not found the right location!

There was no dot, I'll check it again. I got swarmed by about five demon hordes emerging from the Mace of Augvah site. But they presented me with the final two Onyx Charms two of my characters were waiting for.

I think I'll start another party after finishing this game just to see what the game will be like without losing hundreds of XP drinking sludge.

The Mace of Augvah is described as "Damage 10 Bonus -7". Odd. My bashing weapons expert is currently wielding Smite and a Magic mace, and she's doing fine.

[Randomizer]

I think the Mace of Augvah is considered a cursed item. I remember regretting wasting the slot carrying it home.

[Thaluikhain]

10 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

Wound is an excellent spell, and your approach seems like a sound one to me. Amongst other things, I believe Wound partially ignores some creature resistances and immunities, so it can be a very effective way of damaging foes. Notably, it later games, it can actually be used to harm 'invulnerable' creatures, without enough patience!

 

At least in later Exile games, Wound seemed to count as a physical attack, and worked fine on monsters immune to magic, fire, cold and poison.

 

Always thought Icebolt should work that way too, you are throwing an icicle at them enemy like it's a javelin, according to the description.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

Wound deals "unblockable damage". It's a separate damage type. It ignores all resistances and defenses, including physical, except for the Absorbs Magic ability, like Rakshasi have. It can even damage characters with the Invulnerable ability.

 

Always be wary about items with weird names attached to them. They seem to have belonged to members of the First Expedition, who met grisly fates, and therefore most of those items are cursed.

Edited July 26, 2020 by The Almighty Doer of Stuff

[Ess-Eschas]

21 hours ago, Traute Springer-Yakar said:

The Mace of Augvah is described as "Damage 10 Bonus -7". Odd.

 

Yes, that’s right. The Mace of Augvah is a trap!

 

It’s a cursed weapon, and it has some fairly hefty penalties attached to it. It’s not completely terrible – it’s actually one of the best cursed weapons in the game – but you’re far better using more conventional weaponry. A little point about the Mace which you may not have noticed is that it is, if memory serves, an edged weapon, liked a sword. I suspect that’s deliberate, too, to encourage people to give it to a party member that’s specialised in the wrong sort of weaponry.

 

The Almighty Doer of Stuff is mistaken on a few points, I’m afraid. There are a number of fine weapons and artifacts that were associated with the First Expedition, and they’re all accounted for – and none of them are cursed. The Mace of Augvah isn’t a First Expedition item, but has different origins. Generally speaking, if you find an item with a unique name, go for it! It’s likely to be useful and, so long as you’re cautious when demons try to give you presents, or helpfully leave weapons lying around (such as the Mace), you’ll be fine!

 

It can be implied from Exile II that the Mace of Augvah is a demonic weapon, which could explain why it’s not very useful. There are a few similar weapons that appear in Exile II – in a shop run by an imp, no less – that have similar penalties. Interestingly, these trapped weapons largely disappeared in the Avernum remakes. Exile is the only place where you get to see weapons such as the Mace of Augvah and the (actually rather useful) Loki’s Broadsword. That’s why I pointed you in the Mace's direction. If you don’t see the it in Exile I, you’ll never see it in later games!

[Traute Springer-Yakar]

Quote

If you've not found a special dot yet, you've not found the right location!

There was no dot, I'll check it again. I got swarmed by about five demon hordes emerging from the Mace of Augvah site. But they presented me with the final two Onyx Charms two of my characters were waiting for.

I think I'll start another party after finishing this game just to see what the game will be like without losing hundreds of XP drinking sludge.

The Mace of Augvah is described as "Damage 10 Bonus -7". Odd. My bashing weapons expert is currently wielding Smite and a Magic mace, and she's doing fine.

[Traute Springer-Yakar]

1 hour ago, Ess-Eschas said:

A little point about the Mace which you may not have noticed is that it is, if memory serves, an edged weapon, liked a sword.

I noticed,  but I thought it must have been Jeff Vogel up to his tricks again. For instance, Smite is described as a one-handed weapon, and giant killer; it could be anything, edged, bashing or pole. I only noticed that it must be a bashing weapon, when I saw its shape while it was lying on the floor in the store room.

I sold the Mace of Augvah for 200 gold.  Apart affecting its wielders performance, there were no penalties I could see. It certainly didn't stick to its user having to be magically removed. (I didn't even buy the spell).

I just killed Hawthorne and almost repeated the battle, as I brought back almost no loot.  As my mages had cast protection on everyone, the party came back unhurt. Next time I won't bother taking along all those Elixiers of Power, as it's quite possible to rest before meeting Erika.  That's one reason why I'm looking forward to playing Crystal Souls: its improved inventory management.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I mean items like Mace of Augvah, Bow of Kag, Helm of Klin, Shield of Klud, Aescal's Ring, Wand of Vorb, Orb of Thralni, etc. I didn't mean uniquely named items in general, but items with some person's strange name attached. Some of them are OK (like the Orb of Thralni) but most of them are harmful and/or cursed. And no, Ess-Eschas, NOT all of the First Expedition's items are accounted for. The useful ones are accounted for (eventually, but not as of Exile I) but there were lots of people on that expedition and they all had magical equipment. They were slaughtered to a man and a woman and their artifacts were scattered around.

[Thaluikhain]

On 7/26/2020 at 9:09 PM, The Almighty Doer of Stuff said:

Wound deals "unblockable damage". It's a separate damage type. It ignores all resistances and defenses, including physical, except for the Absorbs Magic ability, like Rakshasi have. It can even damage characters with the Invulnerable ability.

 

I didn't know that.  Being able to damage Invulnerable things seems particularly odd.  Is anything else unblockable?

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

Certain special events can deal unblockable damage to the party, and I believe the Darkness Breath monster ability does unblockable damage, but I think that's it.

[Ess-Eschas]

20 hours ago, The Almighty Doer of Stuff said:

I mean items like Mace of Augvah, Bow of Kag, Helm of Klin, Shield of Klud, Aescal's Ring, Wand of Vorb, Orb of Thralni, etc. I didn't mean uniquely named items in general, but items with some person's strange name attached. Some of them are OK (like the Orb of Thralni) but most of them are harmful and/or cursed.

 

I’m not trying to be deliberately contrary here, but I do still think your comment here is a little misleading. The majority of uniquely named items in the game, whether with a person’s name attached or not, are perfectly alright. Harmful and cursed unique items are in the minority. I’m afraid I need to point out that that’s the case even in your list of examples. Most of the items you’ve listed in your post, if memory serves, are neither harmful nor cursed, but are entirely beneficial!

 

To be clear, there certainly are dangerous items with unique names in Exile! But they’re not in the majority. If a player finds an item with a unique name that they’ve not encountered before, chances are that it’s a perfectly useful item. That’s why the trap with the Mace of Augvah works! Trapped items are unusual, so players might be tempted to assume it’s valuable! If the game handed out trapped items all the time, it really wouldn’t be as effective.

 

I’m not trying to be critical, Almighty Doer of Stuff! But it’s important to be clear on issues like this. A player who read your comment, and assumed that all First Expedition items were cursed, for example, could be forgiven for not bothering to put together Demonslayer, or leaving Smite on the ground, believing they were both cursed. That would harm another player’s experience of the game. That’s why it’s important to be clear on these issues whenever we can – we don’t want to spread information that could potentially harm the experience of these games for other players!

 

Your comment about the First Expedition in general is more open to debate! Exile I is quite clear about the actions of the Expedition. We know where they all went, and the player can follow each group. When you reach the end of each trail, you find where they met their end, including the nice items they were carrying. But the game doesn’t provide any evidence I can recall that says these items were moved or scattered around. Most of them, I believe – with the exception of Demonslayer and one of the Brooches – just stayed where their owners fell.

 

I don’t believe there’s a record of any of the teams of the First Expedition going so far as Grah-Hoth’s fortress.

 

It’s also worth remembering that Exile is full of creatures! There are sliths, ogres, nephilim, liches, the aranea, demons, and so on, not to mention the nation of Exile itself and the ruins of Vahnatai civilisation! A mysterious magical artifact could have been made by a number of different races and peoples, and we have evidence that many of the races do just that. Just because the party comes across a magical artifact doesn’t mean it was brought down by the First Expedition!

 

Incidentally, which of the First Expedition items isn’t encountered in Exile I? I thought I had accounted for them all, but I’m probably forgetting one or two – there are a fair few!

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

You're right, only about a third of items with goofy names are cursed or harmful. My mistake.

 

It's emphasized in at least one conversation in Exile 1, in the Tower of Magi I believe, that the First Expedition had a LOT of magical gear and it was scattered about, but I can't remember who said it. I do know that magical equipment is very difficult to make in Avernum, and that most of what is found in Exile was brought down from the surface. Very little gear in Exile/Avernum 1 appears to be of Vahnatai origin, also. But yes, that Klin, Klud, Khar, Kag, Kron, Aescal, Vorb, and Augvah were the names of members of the First Expedition was speculation on my part. They could hypothetically be deities of some sort too, like Carrunos. I wonder, was Thralni the name of the guy with the Orb, or was that the Orb's creator/a deity and the First Expedition guy was just using it?

[Ess-Eschas]

18 hours ago, The Almighty Doer of Stuff said:

You're right, only about a third of items with goofy names are cursed or harmful. My mistake.

 

That’s alright! Everyone makes mistakes, and in games of this size, it’s easy to misremember details sometimes!

 

Most of the names of the unique items you mentioned are mysterious – the game doesn’t give any context for most of them. ‘Thralni’, though, we do know a little about. Thralni was the leader of one of the groups of the First Expedition, the one that explored the lakes around Sss-Thsss’s castle and eventually met their end in a dangerous cave in the Waterfall Warren. We don’t know much more than that, although conversations indicate the Thralni might have been a mage, and that he ‘forced’ members of his group to continue the expedition whether they wanted to or not. Some people have speculated that Thralni took over the entire Expedition after its first leader, Karzoth, died, but that’s not entirely clear. In any case, we at least know that Thralni was not a god, but a mortal.

 

You know, I always liked the idea that ‘Vorb’ was an action word. For instance, you could cast a ‘vorb’ on something, which could be referred to as ‘vorbing’. Like a Wand of Fire launches fire at a target, a Wand of Vorb ‘vorbs’ something. Given the behaviour of the wand, ‘vorbing’ probably isn’t a good thing! That’s just my own instinctive reaction to the word – there’s no evidence that that was what Spiderweb intended!

 

That quotation you remembered (and actually partially quoted yourself!) was from Linda. Lest we forget that Linda did have things to contribute besides the whole issue with the Tower! Here’s what she says:

 

“These adventurers had a wide variety of magic items: several weapons, several peculiar items, and finally a scepter. They were all killed, to a man and woman, and the items
were scattered.”

 

Note that she says they had a wide ‘variety’ of items, rather than a large number of them. At least to me, the repeated use of ‘several’ implies that there really weren’t that many items, just that there were different types of them. The ‘scattering’ part is vague, so it’s open to interpretation. As you’ve seen, I’ve assumed that to mean that the groups were scattered throughout Exile – so the First Expeditions items are found in the handful of locations where the groups met their end. But it could also describe the sort of situation you’re talking about too!

 

Incidentally, for reference, Linda gives a short list of items that came down with the First Expedition. It’s not clear whether it’s meant to be exhaustive or not, but here are the items she mentions:

 

Spoiler

The Runed Halberd, Scrioth, Smite, Demonslayer, Thralni’s Orb, the Blessed Athame, the necklace worn by Formello’s Mayor, and the Onyx Sceptre.

 

Along with this list, we know that the Brooches and the Royal Seal were brought down by the First Expedition too. It’s also worth mentioning that the short-lived ‘Silver Circlet’ is implied to have been brought down by the them as well, but it’s not entirely clear. It comes from the surface world, at least!