Newbie, coming to this from Geneforge - comparisons?

[alhoon]

Hi all, as the title says I never ever played this (despite the time I have on Geneforge). As I wait for Queen's wish line to be finished (will take years I know) and Geneforge 1 to be remastered (will take months) I saw on steam the sale and decided to make the jump here. 

 

For starters let me say that what I liked in Geneforge was ... well, a lot of things. 

- The story (obvious but needs to be said)

- The world (loved exploring it, loved learning tidbits here and there)
- The number of options (from factions to approach of problems etc)

- The not-forced-on-you morality. The world is what it is, with NPCs saying "the other side is bad!". The game doesn't tell you "this side is good, the other is bad"

- The "there are good people and bad people in all sides" approach. 

- The number of different factions and subfactions.

- The frankly refreshing approach on making life with the wave of a hand from serviles to work, to ornks to eat, to plants to use for herbs and to monsters to fight for you

- That I made my own party. Literally. As in, "I need an extra tank for this battle... let's create a clawbug" or "meh, I need to deal more cold damage to pass this. Here come a cryodrayk, and I will absorb the poor fellow after the battle." 

 

What draws me to think scratching the geneforge itch is the subterranean world in this one. Feels refreshing. Also, since it is Spiderweb, I expect the multitude of options.

 

 

My questions before I start investing time, if people would be willing to answer are: 

- How close to Geneforge in way of options, subfactions etc the reboots are? 

- Is the story as good? (Yes, I know it's subjective!) 

- Is the game engine similar to Geneforge 5? I guess it is, as it is a reboot. 

- Is the game easy-ish, like Geneforge, where you could follow the story and learn staff even if you didn't have to play each battle 3 times to win? 
- Can I craft powerful artifacts like in GF?

- What are, in your opinion the big differences from Geneforge?  

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by alhoon

[alhoon]

Also, I would like to play this game with a female character for a change. I often played men in the GF saga. Are there any differences if you play a woman? From cosmetic ones (dialogue) to story changes (X faction doesn't trust you \ trusts you). 

[Randomizer]

The Avernum remakes have some faction options in that more than one side will want certain quest items or actions. Avernum: Escape from the Pit has the most with 3 factions: Avernum, the Empire, and Kyass with each giving different rewards for your help. It isn't the same as Geneforge in that the games have a main quest line that is purely for Avernum.

 

The story is good if you explore enough and talk to people. The first two games have 3 different main quests and you don't have to stop after doing them. Plenty to explore.

 

The game engine is different in that it is completely turn based. No monsters moving around unless you also move. So no monsters suddenly moving next to you because you stopped moving to get a drink.

 

The remakes have better tutorial sections, but save often and in different slots because the boss fights can be difficult. A few places have one way dungeons so you want a save from before entering or from your last safe town in case you weren't high enough level or are lacking in consumable items.

 

There are NPCs that will make unique items or at least better ones with ingredients.

 

You can have a party of up to 4 characters that can be different sexes and avatars. You can use pre-generated or customized characters. No differences in dialogue for different sexes. Helping one faction doesn't cut you off from the others.

 

Smaller parties gain experience faster just like having fewer creations.

 

Biggest difference is greater variety in customizing your parties. Most games let you pick the playing style you like. From pure fighters to all spell casters are possible once you know what to expect and how to play.

[alhoon]

11 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

You can have a party of up to 4 characters that can be different sexes and avatars.

 

😕 So... I went from a game where you make everyone in your party, literally... to  a game where I start with a party? Oh well. 

 

11 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

It isn't the same as Geneforge in that the games have a main quest line that is purely for Avernum.

I don't understand what you mean here. 

Do you mean that I am "mainly Avernum" but I can help the other two factions if I want, but not join them? Are all the endings Avernum-oriented or I can go with the Empire and the other faction you mentioned (Kyass). 

 

Or do you mean, perhaps, there's quests A to F that you have to do to progress (similar to finding who targeted Astoria in GF5 or passing through Moseh in GF4 or unlocking the docks in GF3) and G to J are optional quests that help X faction. 

Do the "main quests" have different outcomes (like fixing Moseh / Killing Moseh in GF4) or you just give quest-object-B to the faction of your choice (like you did with the research notes in GF? Or Monarch's notes in GF4?)

 

Frankly, I want to make a Kyass run for the name (I don't even know what they believe in, but there's power in names! )  
Is it possible to join a different faction than Avernum? Like in GF3 that you start Shaper and change to Rebel? 

 

 

I really appreciate your fast reply BTW!!!!

Edited June 14, 2020 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

In the first game, the three factions all want the same group of items. You can turn each item in to one faction and Kyass gives you better rewards for doing almost all of them.  Or you can turn in the different items to different factions. These are side quests and don't change the main stories.

 

Eventually you meet people that give the three main quest series of individual quests. All of these main quests benefit Avernum and not the Empire. You don't have to do them, but they give the best rewards. Even after doing them you also have the option of exploring more and finishing up minor quests that you might have skipped.

 

The are also some minor quests with two choices. Nothing game changing, but some are morally questionable like helping an illicit drug trade.

[alhoon]

Thank you. I will play the game now.

[alhoon]

So... after the awesome community solved my resolution problems, I have the following question: 

Played the first zone, the tutorial and decided that yes, this is a fine game that I will play. So... 

 

Party composition! 

I would like to play in a way similar to the way I played geneforge with a Shaper... and I don't need to invest much in shaping summoning since I get my Creations companions automatically. I plan to play on normal difficulty, I am an absolute noob when it comes to Avernum tactics and stuff and... I don't want to invest too much time optimizing. From what I have read around here, it seems that normal would offer a suitable challenge to someone that puts some thought but not too much on character advancement. 
PS. I am not too shy to use to give my chars a little boost (but not turn them superheroes from lvl1). I understand this is something many people would find objectionable, but I do not and it is increasing my enjoyment.   

 

So could someone knowledgeable tell me if those are viable (given normal difficulty, inexperience and a cheat +2 to endurance to breeze through the early stages till I get a hold of the game and have a "buffer" for future suboptimal choices)? 

 

1. I would  like a Battle Creation front-line fighter. Soldier seems fine to be honest. The guides here say that I should invest in two weapons but I was considering a more war-trall approach: I.e. someone that is good enough from range and well armored to get beaten a lot, with melee a close second so if nasties get close to be able beat them up.  

However if that is not viable or very suboptimal to make a "missile/melee hybrid", I am not above going for a Rotdhizon melee warrior with poison and a lot of actions. 

 

2. I would like a wingbolt a ranged magical glass cannon. Sorceress seems the way to go here, I think. If she can be upgraded to a gazer ranged magical combatant that can withstand a beating later on, so much the better.

 

3. I want my shaper to be buffer > summoner > spell-damage > healer in that order preferably... with tool use and cave lore. 

But I want a rebel! Is it possible with a bit of tweaking to make a rebel focused on those? 
Why I want a rebel? I am not sure I can answer that. I want to play a rebel for ... story reasons I guess. I just want to play a rebel. No need to tell me "you are free to assume everyone in your character was a rebel!". I figured that out. I would like someone that says rebel in the class. 
I am willing to add a couple more points and traits with the editor to this char to make a lifecrafter rebel shaper a rebel that uses magic. Is it possible,  to make a workable character that is a rebel and has buffer > summoner > spell-damage > healer + tools and cave lore configuration?  Even if it is not optimal, I would like to go that way, unless it is completely suboptimal. 

 

4. ??? Suggestions for this slot? 
A pure melee? Another ranged/melee hybrid? Nobody and go for 3 chars? (again, noobie that doesn't want to burn a lot of energy in planning every step of a battle) 
Do I need a melee warrior in this game? Do I get penalties if I move away from melee enemies to fight in ranged combat? I.e. is a party primarily focused on ranged combat viable for a noob? 
 

Another question: If I summon stuff for battle, do they reduce my XP for the battle?

  

[ThomasCats]

The pre-determined character classes are mainly irrelevant, you're all rebels or, the Empire made you rebels even if you didn't plan to be. You get four character slots, so a classic set up might work like a high armour/HP warrior type (there are traits you can pick up that make enemies more likely to attack one character over others, which rather helps with this), a physical damage dealer who doesn't spec as much into defence, could be melee or archer (archer characters can do very high ranged single target damage in one round later on, which is hand for picking off enemy casters), a priest type for healing and blessing (and later area damage) and a mage for general area damage and debuffs. The only real restriction is mages can't cast in too much armour, but that doesn't apply to priests, so if you felt like it you could have all your characters with minor healing abilities.

Normal difficulty isn't too hard generally (except for one tricky end game bit, but you can use potions for that).

Summoned monsters don't do anything about experience as far as I know, though they're mostly hit point fodder in Avernum 1. Avernum 2 after a while lets you have some control over what you summon and you can get some handy buffs from summons, but they don't tend to do much damage compared to the PCs.

Edited June 18, 2020 by ThomasCats

[Randomizer]

Priest summoned monsters are especially useful because they are immune to all mental attacks. They can take those attacks so you don't have to suffer from charmed and terrified player characters. They don't take away experience. 

[Edgwyn]

As ThomasCats said, the character classes are irrelevant.  They have different starting stats, but you will acquire some many skills and abilities through advancing levels that the tiny bit of sub-optimization does not matter at all, especially on normal.  Having a fourth character will make the game easier, simply because you can do more (inflict damage, heal, buff, summon, whatever) each round. 

 

Having a melee focused character will make it easier, because melee is hard to avoid.  Rooms are only so big and some fights you just can't get away from.  

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ThomasCats said:

The pre-determined character classes are mainly irrelevant, you're all rebels or, the Empire made you rebels even if you didn't plan to be. 

 

I am aware, but I still want to play a rebel that is a rebel class. 🙂 From what you said, I will get a rebel and specialize her in priest magic. 

Thanks for all replies. 

 

I decided to go with: 

- Lifecrafter  Rebel that will specialize in priest magic and will have tools and lore

- Rotdhizon Melee tough guy that will hopefully at some point get some nasty damage-over-time attack

- Cryoa Ranged warrior that is not a total zero in melee 

- Wingbolt heavy damage spellcaster that should stay out of combat

 

I frankly named the soldier "Rotdhizon", the sorceress "Wingbolt" and the archer "Cryora". 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by alhoon

[Vinlie]

My deal with playing such a perfect, polished game series as Geneforge, every other RPG that's similar I often would draw comparisons from that game to Geneforge, only to realize that Geneforge sits on the absolute pinnacle.

[alhoon]

I don't expect Geneforge levels of depth here, I expect a deep and entertaining game. So far, (a couple of hours in) I am happy with this game. If this game is 70% as good as Geneforge I would be glad. 

[alhoon]

After a big absence from the game (sister's wedding, other things), I returned to it for the past couple of days. I see guides say that dual-weapon is the way to go and that archers suck. 

Well, I want Melee-Archer-Mage-Priest because that's what I like so even if it is suboptimal, I will go with it (normal difficulty). Then I saw some strange things with battle disciplines and such and got confused about how I should make my (already suboptimal) party. Someone here also told me that there's simply not enough cash... so I have to scour and sweep each place for valuables to sell to squeeze money. 🙁 With the new and improved graphics that's a problem since things don't show up as clearly (or I am not used to them) and I miss things. I also find it time consuming and grindy. 

 

So... a few newbie questions, considering I have a suboptimal party and little knowledge on how to progress my party plus an aversion to reading long guidelines plus an attitude of "That may be suboptimal but that's the way I like to play". 

 

- Dual wield: Do I need to invest a few points in the trait first? Or for my starting levels I can get away with increasing melee to get that battle discipline everyone talks about, that allows several attacks? 
- Since I play in normal difficulty but with suboptimal party (because of inexperience but also preference), do I need to use guides and stuff to find the best trainers at the right time? 
- Do I really need to sweep the floor for valuables? If I mod the item values to make all of them +100% more expensive (as I sell much more than I buy so far) can I get away with some "Oh, wait, let's open that barrel there to see if it has crystal... nope, trash. How about that box? Nope, blankets" tedious searching? Or there are items I need to buy so that x2 price for selling/buying will bite me in the rear end? 
- Does spellcraft works like in GF? I.e. if I invest there would it make my daze spell more powerful? 
- What are the "soft caps", if any? Divided by 2 after 10? 

 

Also, I think (not sure) that my stats increase a bit weirdly. Is that a glitch or they go up even if I don't put points on them? 

[Randomizer]

Dual wielding has a huge penalty (-40% to hit chance), so at the start it is better not to go that route and build up to it in the middle game with strength, melee weapons, and a few levels of dual wielding skill. Fighter attacks start already with a slightly lower base to hit chance compared to some spells and too much penalty to hit chance armor can make you unable to hit.

 

The guides tell you the cheapest trainers and where to get the better stuff, but you don't need to do that. 

 

Money is tight at the beginning, but eventually gets better. So sweeping to get every last bit does go away or just get used to not buying everything you want at the start. More worthless items exist in the remake to convince you not to grab everything.

 

Spellcraft improves damage, spell effect duration, and healing. It acts like an extra level of mage or priest spells that way, but doesn't count towards the level to use a spell for casting. Since it works on all spells like Geneforge, you want to keep getting it .

[Slawbug]

The penalty for Dual Wielding is never -40%.

 

In A:EFTP, it's -20%.  The -20% to-hit is really only meaningful at very low levels, after that you'll cap to-hit with a good build anyway.  The -20% to damage sounds bad, but it's really -0.2 to the damage multiplier, and there are eventually a lot of things that add to that -- various skills, traits, spell effects, and item attributes.  Even ignoring those, you're getting two 80% hits instead of one 100% hit.

 

In A2:CS and A3:RW, it goes up to -35%.  This sounds like a lot, but dual wielding still outclasses single wielding more than handily.  This is, however, one more thing that adds to the dominance of spell damage in A2:CS.

 

Spellcraft does not act like an extra level of mage or priest spells.  It adds to the spellcasting damage/healing/duration multiplier, just like Blademaster does for melee attacks.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, TM Paladin said:

Spellcraft does not act like an extra level of mage or priest spells.  It adds to the spellcasting damage/healing/duration multiplier

So, does it increase the effectiveness of daze or not? 

[Slawbug]

That is unfortunately unclear, as those hit formulas are hard to look into.  But based on the way damage works, it probably doesn't -- most likely, it can affect duration (as with "blessings"), but not the chance of success.

 

IIRC, this was a change made between the G/A4-6 engine and the Ava/AR engine.

[alhoon]

OK, how about these, that are maybe different because of the engine change:

- How can  I close doors in this game? I can't seem to be able to click them. 

- How can I move around just a single character and leave the rest in a corner? 

- How can I see the hp of NPCs (right clicking on them has no effect) ?

[TriRodent]

Doors don't close, something about the magnetic field underground attaches them to the nearest wall (something like an electromagnet) & they can't get unstuck until after you leave the city & come back (they'll reset while you're gone)

 

For thieving purposes I assume?  I stick my party in an unobserved room/alley, go into fight mode, have one guy (or potentially gal, no need to be sexist after all) go do the ... er ... income redistribution, & the others stay put out of sight.  After your pockets are filled (it may take a turn or three to get to where you want, open chests, etc) then leave fight mode & stroll away whistling innocently.

 

Open up the character screen & the hp/mana info is listed up near their picture

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, TriRodent said:

Open up the character screen & the hp/mana info is listed up near their picture

 

I was asking about the NPCs. I  wanted to check how many hp the guards have etc, like we did in GF. 

 

Wealth redistribution and fighting income inequality was of course  my main reason for wanting a character  to go around alone and what you said with the fight mode is what I need. You all say that money is a "little tight" but with 4 characters I really have to focus. I thought to buy the first couple of points for quick action for all my 4 chars. That is, simply put impossible. 
Money is not "a little tight", money is very scarce. I barely could afford to buy a boat and now I regret it. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by alhoon

[TriRodent]

55 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I was asking about the NPCs. I  wanted to check how many hp the guards have etc, like we did in GF. 

 

Ah,  in my mind the way I tend to play, the first character listed is 'me' & the other three are NPCs.  No, I don't believe you can get the info you're seeking about the other people wandering around towns.

 

Money is tight, no question.  You'll eventually need to buy two boats so don't sweat the one (one for the big wide open 'sea' south of Cotra & one up in Ft Draco for the little inland river - lots of things to do down south & the one up north is needed to move towards one of the end game quests). 

 

With a little self justification you could use the cheat code "iampoor" (500 gp each time).  You say you want to buy 2 points each of quick action for everyone ... negotiate a bulk training rate for the group... Say each point costs (pulling number from my butt here...) 800gp or 3200 for the group for one point.  You 'negotiate' a group rate of 1700gp to teach everyone one point at the same time (in other words you have to have the 1700 on hand & not just buy one point per person when you can afford it).  So buy everyone one point & 'refund' yourself 3 "iampoor"s (1700 + 1500 'cheat' gp = 3200 that you actually have to spend to get the point).  Come back when you have another 1700 built up & get the other point (or even work out a bigger bulk discount if you get all 8 points at once... you get the idea).

 

It just depends on how 'pure' you want to keep the game (& in some of SW's games, iirc using a cheat code locks out some medals if that's a concern).  Myself (when just playing & not testing), I tend to use 'imdrained' to reload points rather than hiking back to town to do so.  However I will make my party walk back to the front of the dungeon before doings so (with the assumption that it's a clear shot back to town) & then head back in to do some more monster thumping (I 'won't' do it however if I have to go somewhere where there is no backtracking as that goes against the spirit of (my personal) cheat usage).

 

Good news though, when you get to A3 there is potentially unlimited money through the job boards so that headache is much reduced.

[Slawbug]

alhoon, what hasn't come up -- and I think you're running into -- is that A:EFTP is 100% open world.  Unlike even the less linear Geneforges (2 and 5), you can go almost anywhere at the start of the game.  You can go through the world in whatever order you like.  As a consequence, money has a different dynamic.  In Geneforge, a given area tends to supply you with what you need in order to patronize the shops there.  There isn't typically stuff in the first couple of zones that you can't afford (and don't need) until much later in the game.  Early areas have less loot and cheaper shops.  In Avernum there's no pressure for spending opportunities to line up with loot.  Expensive stuff, like skill trainers, are spread out all over.  Cash is still concentrated with tougher enemies.  Because you have so many more spending opportunities, you can't buy everything nice when you see it, and you'll have to prioritize.

 

From my guide:

 

Spoiler

===============================================================================
                                      [4]

                       EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY: TRAINING
===============================================================================

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4.0] EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY -- VERSION DISCREPANCY!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the original Mac versions of the game (v1.0 and 1.1), buying the second
level of a skill or spell cost twice as much as buying the first level.

The PC, iPad, and Android versions were released several months after the Mac
version, and had their own round of beta testing.  During this time,
Spiderweb decided to change the payment scheme.  In these versions, buying
the second level of a skill or spell costs the same as the first level.
Additionally, the cost of the critical Dispel Barrier spell was halved.

Spiderweb has said they are incorporating this change in a forthcoming update
for Mac.  As of 4/22/12, that update has not been released.  This guide was
written with the original system (Double Price) in mind.  The majority of the
advice applies to either system; however, under the Single Price system, you
will be able to buy basically 50% more skills and spells than you would
otherwise.  It doesn't change which skills and spells are the best options,
but it means you'll be able to buy more than what is listed here.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4.1] EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY -- MONEY
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much money do you get to play with?  I did some grep fu with Randomizer's
game atlas, followed by some excel fu, and came up with the following
approximations.

60,000 cash available directly
  * a lot of this is quest rewards, some are late, some is the castle treasury,
    etc.  So let's reduce this to 50,000 to be safe

480,000 gold worth of saleable goods (likely an underestimate)

96,000 gold
  * for selling these items individually at the regular 20% rate... OR

134,000 gold
  * for selling these items individually at the 28% rate with 4 Negotiator

A decent chunk of these, cashwise, are the "most powerful items" which you are
unlikely to sell. on the other hand, this does not include ANY random drops,
some of which are significant -- you can get a lot of valuable spears from the
hundreds of sliths you fight, for example. But we'll play conservative, so
let's say you get 2/3 of this number. That's

64,000 gold for selling items regularly, or

89,000 gold for selling them with 4 Negotiator

That means each Negotiator trait should be worth in the realm of 6000-7000
gold, AT LEAST, over the course of the game.

This also gives us a ballpark budget of around 115,000 gold regularly, or
140,000 with Negotiator.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4.2] EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY -- SKILLS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a list of all the skills at their lowest trainable price:

 800 Arcane Lore (Erika)
 900 Cave Lore (Vermeers)
 960 Bows (Hrror) *
 960 Thrown Weapons (Skatha / Hrror) *
 960 Sharpshooter (Hrror)
 960 Gymnastics (Eleanor / Hrror)
 960 Magical Efficiency (Erika)
1100 First Aid (Etheridge)
1120 Hardiness (Hrror) **
1120 Resistance (Skatha) **
1200 Parry (Hrror) **
1200 Quick Action (Eleanor / Hrror)
1280 Melee Weapons (Hrror) *
1280 Pole Weapons (Skatha / Hrror) *
1280 Mage Spells (X) *
1320 Riposte (Etheridge)
1440 Blademaster (Hrror) *
1600 Spellcraft (X / Erika) *
1600 Lethal Blow (X) *
1980 Dual Wielding (Etheridge)
1980 Sniper (Etheridge)
2200 Tool Use (Etheridge)

Not trainable: Priest Spells, Luck

I've put a single asterisk by the skills that are a good value for the first
point. These are skills that we don't care about maxing out, but we can use a
cheap point in. The weapon skills all help reach Adrenaline Rush. Mage Spells
we are happy to have a point in, but don't have a cap to get past so don't need
to pay double for a second point. Blademaster, Spellcraft, and Lethal Blow are
all worth second points if there is money for them -- and there may be
eventually. But they can start out with one. Hardiness and Resistance are
probably worth the second point for everyone and Parry is definitely worth the
second point for folks up front. Dual Wielding and Tool Use are just too
expensive to be practical, although you could make them work if you wanted to.

REMINDER: In the Single Price game versions, most of the asterisked skills
will be good values to train in twice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4.3] EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY -- SPELLS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at spells:

 240 2nd level of Bolt of Fire (Mairwen) (level up: bonus damage, 30% cleave)
 360 2nd level of Call Beast (Mairwen) (level up: buffs)
 360 Slow (Mairwen) (level up: ???)
 360 Icy Rain (Mairwen) (level up: bonus damage, 40% immobilization) **
 480 2nd level of Cloak of Curses (Mairwen) (level up: ???)
 480 2nd level of Daze (Mairwen) (level up: ensnare, stun)
 480 Haste (Mairwen) (level up: bonus duration, 30% battle frenzy!!) **
 640 Spray Acid (Evysss / Ambrin / Miles) (level up: 30% cleave, lightning fx)
 720 Cloak of Bolts (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: bonus damage)
 800 Minor Summon (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: buffs)
 800 Lightning Spray (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: bonus dmg, 40% weak. curse)
 960 Blink (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: war curse, daze)
1120 Cloak of Blades (Evysss) (level up: bonus damage) **
1120 Summon Aid (Evysss / Erika) (level up: buffs)
1400 Arcane Summon (Solberg) (level up: buffs)
1500 Cloak of the Arcane (Solberg) (level up: bonus damage) **
1600 Arcane Blow (Solberg) (level up: 100% war curse, bonus damage?) *
1600 Howl of Terror (Evysss / Erika) (level up: war curse, ?)
1920 Fireblast (Evysss / Erika) (level up: bonus damage, bonus damage!!) **
4000 2nd level of Dispel Barrier (Mairwen) *

 240 2nd level of Minor Heal (Toddric) (level up: bonus healing, 100% regen) *
 360 2nd level of Curing (Toddric) (level up: cure multiple afflictions)
 360 War Blessing (Toddric) (level up: bonus duration, 50% spine shield) *
 360 Call Storm (Toddric) (level up: nothing, bonus damage) **
 360 Summon Shade (Toddric) (level up: buffs)
 480 2nd level of Smite (Toddric) (level up: bonus damage, 30% war curse)
 480 2nd level of Protection (Toddric) (level up: bonus duration, 50% regen) *
 720 Unshackle Mind (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: cure mult. afflictions) *
 720 Ward of Thoughts (Claudette) (level up: stronger) *
 800 Heal (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: bonus healing, 100% regeneration)
 800 Mass Healing (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: bonus healing, 50% regen) **
 960 Mass Curing (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: cure multiple afflictions)
1120 Ward of Steel (Evysss) (level up: stronger) **
1120 Domination (Evysss / Erika) (level up: more consistently effective)
1600 Divine Fire (Evysss) (level up: bonus damage, bonus damage!!) **
1600 Ward of Elements (Evysss / Erika) (level up: stronger) **
1920 Return Life (Evysss / Erika / Healing Monastery) (level up: ???)
2240 Divine Retribution (Erika) (level up: slow, ?) **
2400 Divine Restoration (Erika) (level up: bonus healing, ?) *
2560 Divine Host (Erika) (level up: buffs)

Again, asterisks indicate the number of levels that are worth buying. No
asterisks doesn't mean a spell is useless, just that 1 level from a spellbook
should be sufficient. Most spells that you need, but you only need at level 1,
have easily accessible spellbooks. The exception is Unshackle Mind, which is
important, relatively cheap to buy, and relatively hard to access in spellbook
format -- you need to reach Khoth.

Dispel Barrier is expensive. You need it, but it is definitely worth visiting
the Aranea web for that first point, even if you need to wait to do it --
that's 2000 gold you save.

Cost of spells I suggested:

23120 for spells you only need cast by 1 person
 8440 per career mage
17640 per career priest
 3360 per minor priest

So, that's about 50,000 gold for a relatively picky selection of spell
purchases, or possibly more with 3+ casters. That leaves about 65,000 gold in
our imaginary purse, or 90,000 with 4 Negotiator. To simplify things for skill
purchases, that's about 16,000 per PC, or 22,000 with 4 Negotiator.

A singleton can probably get by without Negotiator -- she'll still have more to
sell, since only the top pick for each equipment slot need be kept. Overall, a
singleton should have plenty of money to train every skill twice and purchase
whatever spells she desires.

REMINDER: In the Single Price game versions, you have more money to work with
and can afford to be a bit more generous when it comes to picking up spells.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4.4] EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY -- ITEMS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty much all the best equipment is found, not bought. In fact, it's hard to
buy equipment upgrades that will last very long at all before being superseded
by something you didn't have to pay for. I have only been able to identify
one exception:

Reflective Pants (+10% Curse resistance) from 2 different merchants
  * near Formello and in the Tower of Magi

It's not crystal clear, as there are various greaves that provide better armor
and other bonuses. However, they all come with to-hit penalties, their other
bonuses are mostly not useful, and curse resistance is both useful and rare.
You can buy 1 or 2 pairs of reflective pants early, stick 'em on your rear
spellcasters, and they can last for all or almost all of the game.

DON'T buy Wisdom Crystals (or ingredients like Mandrake to make more). A few
hundred gold for under 200 XP might sound like a bargain, but remember, it's
under 200 XP for a single character. If that were actually a fifth of a skill
point, that might work out. It's not. Since skill points and even stat points
become scarce after level 30, it's really less than 1/25 of a skill point, plus
1 HP and 1 SP, for a single character. You're better off spending your money on
trainers.

 

[alhoon]

TM Paladin, thanks.  I was running from some ogres to go to that tower of the eeeevil Shapers mages that Shaped made the fungi and all... only to find out I can barely afford 1-2 spells. Load-game, back in the North. Are you sure it was just 8440 for a career mage? The spells I saw were very expensive. 
That boat set me back. 😞 I also bought a sword because I haven't thought of the use-fight-mode "wealth redistribution" scheme. I stole another one in front of the shopkeeper, because I guessed that I can get away with stealing 1-2 items.  

 

The Trainers? 1200 gp for quick action, 1100 for acrobatics. 4x1200 = 4800 + 4400 for acrobatics. Perhaps I am a bit off so let's say 8500. 
I would wear my fingers raw if I tried to "Iampoor" even half of that and I don't have 4500 anyway. I simply will do without quick action. 

Is there perhaps an equivalent of Canisters books that train you like in GF2? Books that don't ask 1000+ to give you a not-that-good skill? 
EDIT: If I may ask, where can I find this Hrror person that would soon start bleeding me dry?  
EDIT2: And that Etheridge person for tool use?

 

What about the "wandering monsters"? Are they limited? What I mean is that if I escape an encounter because I have some Cave Lore, would I lose money? Or they respawn? If they respawn... is actually any ones that are worth it? Because so far I have got like 20-40 gold from such encounters if I am lucky. 

 

Those boards with jobs @TriRodent mentioned, there are some in this game too, do these jobs "respawn"? 

 

I follow what the NPCs tell me so far to find "proper for my level" areas. If there's a warning "Danger, nobody returned from this path!" I don't go there. If people tell me "for amateurs, perhaps try the caverns here" I go there. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by alhoon

[TriRodent]

8 minutes ago, alhoon said:

What about the "wandering monsters"? Are they limited? What I mean is that if I escape an encounter because I have some Cave Lore, would I lose money? Or they respawn? If they respawn... is actually any ones that are worth it? Because so far I have got like 20-40 gold from such encounters if I am lucky. 

 

Those boards with jobs @TriRodent mentioned, there are some in this game too, do these jobs "respawn"? 

 

Wandering monsters will show up on occasion (usually scaled with how difficult that particular area is - don't expect goblins west of Ft Remote nor drakes strolling around the Eastern Gallery), depending on the monster type you'll usually get a little bit of loot that you can sell/a few gp.

 

How much did you spend on the boat?  IIRC it was only 4-500 (?) gp, a big chunk of your pocketbook near the start of the game but it shouldn't have broken the bank a few levels in.

 

A3 has two different kinds of boards.  Quest boards (which are what you're seeing in A1) & job boards.  Quest boards are 'not' respawning, but they do occasionally have a new quest/job put up so check them occasionally.  Job boards (A3) do respawn & are of the "go deliver 'x' item to 'y' person in 'z' city' variety (or go kill 'x' monster & deliver it's head to 'y' person in 'z' city).  Once you do get to A3 make sure to read the Strategy Central advice/warnings about accepting jobs as they can bite you if you aren't paying attention.  Two different types of boards, sorry about the confusion.

 

Honestly you shouldn't be worried about/using trainers until mid game or so (at least the way I play).  Most skills (other than melee, ranged, magic) have a cap of 10 skill points... BUT you can train 2 levels also.  So if there's a skill you really like/use, train to 10 & 'then' go to the trainer to get it to 12 (otherwise if you've bought two earlier in the game you can only get 8 points (+ the two you bought for ten).  I will use a trainer later on for those skills that I don't particularly want to train in (first aid, cave lore, etc - I'll put a couple of points into them so I'm not completely incompetent but there tend to be better uses for skill points), but money can be better used to by a level of a useful spell here & there.  I 'never' buy any equipment, you're going to be finding plenty all over the place (ok, never is a bit strong but it does apply to normal items.  There are some unique items that you may want to buy much later in the game).  Same applies to potions, scrolls, wands, etc (I will gather herbs & make some potions though).  Money 'is' somewhat tight but it shouldn't strangle you (apropos of nothing in particular, a visit to Ft Dranlon might be in order...)

 

[Slawbug]

57 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Are you sure it was just 8440 for a career mage?

 

If you read the explanations and do the math, that should be what you get.  You'll notice that most of the spells aren't essential, and a few of the essential but expensive ones are one per party spells, not one per mage spells.

 

Also note that it will be less for you, since this guide was written for the first release where 2nd levels of training cost double.

[alhoon]

So... I shouldn't have blown 1000+ on spells, got it. Good think I reloaded.  

 

Man, that game needs a guide. I would be completely lost without you guys.