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Aleister

In Depth Geneforge 5 Protagonist FULL Theory - Chronological Story

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Posted (edited)

Here goes. 

 

Geneforge 5 Protagonist. Who are they? We are never explicitly told. But I do think there is enough evidence to provide a flawed but plausible and convincing argument that you are the future version of the heavily altered, mentally deranged, protagonist of Geneforge 3. 

 

Disclaimer: Please, I know that this topic has been the cause of much debate on these forums in the past. So rather then directly creating up another thread saying "lets open up this wasp nest again". I instead am creating a thread here to present an idea to those who are interested and like me, irked that there was never a final verdict. Lets keep in mind that these games contain plenty of flaws, so to speak, in regards to details of the story and as such nobodies theory will be %100 accurate. These are just my ideas, I have zero authority over the facts of what is or isn't "true" in this universe of games. If my theory doesn't align with yours, keep in mind it's possible Jeff deliberately made multiple options possible as a fan service and too promote discussions, which, undoubtedly, he has succeeded in doing. With that said I have been playing and revisiting these games for a decade now and have tried to keep everything accurate as I can, so enjoy the read. 

 

During the events of Geneforge 3:

 

The players school is attacked by Litalia who kills your peers and your teachers. You fight your way out of the school with Alwan and discover that the one teacher that survived the attack, Master Hoge, is acting suspiciously. You then leave the school and are faced by Litalia who tells you of the war raging on the mainland and across the Ashen Isles. All the player knows at this point is that she has killed their teachers, classmates, and destroyed their school. Litalia then leaves and the player, who goes on to meet with Greta, who joins them on their quest to avenge their school. The three contact Fort Kentia, and it is here that the player first comes into contact with canisters. Desperate for the power to avenge their school and knowing that their training is incomplete, they use the canister and upon doing so "feel a strong urge to find more of them". The three destroy the spawner making rouges that harm the island, and the player discovers and uses more canisters left by Litalia as they go.

 

They then travel to Harmony Isle where the player helps the Shaper in command by destroying the network of spawners ravaging the island. Along the way the player, now facing greater threats, continues finding and using canisters, and slowly the side effects begin to show. A fact not unnoticed by Greta*. They are asked by a group of rebels to bring them a canister granting their leader great power but the player refuses, leaving the rebels to deal with the shaper in command now that his island is secure.

 

Note* There are two reasons I've included this. Greta becomes a rebel, for years and years, she spends time in the forts of drakons and in many battles. And yet, she shows no sign, ever, of canister use. I think the reason is that she witnessed what happened to her friend and was put off them as a result. Although that is unimportant to the theory. 

 

They continue to Dhonal's Isle where they meet the traitor Master Hoge who is going mad due to excessive canister use and he attacks them. The three of them drive him back and corner him where he disappears and flees. The player, still accompanied by Greta and Alwan, remains true to their mission of going after the destroyer of their school and destroys the massive spawner left on Dhonal's Isle. When they go to leave the island however Greta tells them that she does not believe in the justice of the shapers and leaves them*. Much to the pleasure of Alwan who dislikes Greta for her lack of conviction to the shaper cause.

 

Note* This lines up with what Greta tells the main character in geneforge 4. She says that she traveled from island to island, fighting the rebels, until she decided she'd had enough and, "doing the unthinkable", left them. 

 

The player continues with Alwan on to Gull Island where they are immediately attacked by servile rebels, but due to the player's continued use of canisters: "When you see that these creatures are challenging you, something strange happens. You are suddenly overwhelmed with a powerful feeling of hatred and disgust for them."; "You have to struggle to control the urge to lash out and instantly destroy them for challenging you". (taken from the scripts of gf3). The player and Alwan then continue on where they come face to face with Litalia. They say that they will kill her but she freezes them, just like outside the school on their first meeting, with a spell. During the conversation with Litalia the player comments on her glowing skin, she replies by telling the player "I can see it, the blessing of the canisters. You should use a mirror. Your skin has the radiance as well." The player also asks her why she decided to join with the rouge creations and rebel against the shapers. She replies saying that she believes the ways of the shapers are cruel and outdated. However, her voice is hollow and she is described as not being concerned with the cause anymore, she is evidently only concerned with gaining power. She then leaves. 

 

Okay. Note from me.  It is this part, and what happens next, that ties my whole theory together. The Shaper you play as in GF 3 fights for the shaper cause*. But their enemies are many and mighty. So they partake in excessive illegal shaping (canisters) so that they can gain enough power to fight and kill Litalia. A classic case of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. After there meeting with Litalia, as the theory goes, the player is shaken and enraged. After all they have done and all the power they have tried to amass, Litalia can still render them paralyzed with a wave of her hand. So the player takes it up a notch, and now reckless due to their deteriorating mental state, actively searches for and uses as many canisters as they can get their hands on.

 

*Note, as stated by Greta, GF4

 

Now. The following is my theory, not directly stated. Read on.

From here the shaper and alwan find and meet with khyryk. They sneak around his back halls, the player still searching for the power to destroy Litalia when they find a console controlling some machinery. The player then has a powerful insight. They have witnessed firsthand the power that Litalia possesses, and they know that they are not strong enough to crush her. So in the moment the player realizes, despite all they have done to fight the rebels , they need their help, and the players mind has been so polluted by their now reckless and animal hunger for and use of the canisters that their judgement is twisted. In that split second the player sabotages the machinery, causing an explosion that injures khyryk. The player, with the help of alwan who is so full of shock he is unable to think about his actions and is consumed by the heat of battle, strike down khyryk. In the moments before his death khyryk attempts to teleport himself away, but the spell fails and is unstable. the energy engulfs and vaporizes him.*

 

Note*. I know that khyryk is alive in GF4. However this is a case of a flaw in the narrative, as no matter what the player does in GF3 to aid the rebels prior, they still demand the death of khyryk. And we know that the rebels win the ashen isles conflict. For the sake of the story we can say that when khyryk attempts to teleport away but loses control of the spell you get a "red skull-tessaract" situation*  where he is teleported far away (even though it appears he dies).

 

From here the player takes the key they get of khyryk's body to the docks in Khors depths and use the boat to travel to the stronghold of rebel power in the ashen isles: The Isle of Spears. But not before they encounter Hoge, their traitorous teacher who has been maddened by canister use and kill him. Alwan, who already had doubts about the player due to their canister use and increasing madness, says: "I'm sorry, Shaper. I can travel with you no longer. I had my doubts, but I thought that you fought for your cause. But then I saw you ... saw you murder Khyryk. Strike him down, in his own home. I was sickened._";  "_Now I see that you are lost to our kind. I need to go offer my services to fight the rebels, and maybe even fight you. It is the only way I can be true to my beliefs. Goodbye._";. Alwan then leaves the player alone on the docks of Khors Depths. 

 

Note from me: This theory sets up Greta and Alwans recounts of their experiences perfectly.

Greta says in GF4 that she traveled with them, fighting the rebels then left them.

Alwan says in GF4 this: From his journal in his room in rivergate keep: "Oddly, a lot of the journal has been crossed out. It appears that Alwan spent most of his journey in the company of a Shaper. However, for some reason, most of the references to this person have been removed." Then when you ask him about it: "Alwan looks suspicious. _How did you know that?_ Hopefully, he won't realize that you read his journal."; "He leans close and whispers, _I do not wish that fact to be known. Association with that Shaper resulted in ... in problems. I am not responsible, but some won't realize that. So, if you are wise, you will keep very quiet._"

See? Seems like we get conflicting information in GF4 from the two of them. Unless this theory is correct.

 

The player did go from island to island helping the shapers, but their lust for power lead them to madness. They betrayed the shapers then joined the rebels so that they can get more power. But then they see Icy End. They see the ways the creations are living in relative harmony together in freedom from the shapers. This inner conflict, combined with their increasing insanity. Leads them, like Litalia, not caring about the cause anymore and getting lost in a pursuit of power. The protagonist aids the rebels by killing Lord Rahul on Dohnals Isle and Akhari-Blaze uses the Geneforge. The player then uses a boat to travel to the mainland and goes to a shaper town and ends the game, if not their story, with the following ending abbreviated courtesy of Preferential Depletement:

 

"You reach a Shaper force, and tell them about everything that happened in the Ashen Isles, to scare them. You are locked up due to your actions. During a successful Rebel attack, the Shaper commander comes in to deal you a mortal wound, but is instead decapitated by a rotghroth. By Akhari Blaze's pronouncement, you are given a command of those servile cultists who choose voluntarily to serve under you. You participate in the ravaging of Terrestia, and you keep fighting."

 

Now. What happens to the Geneforge 3 character between now and Geneforge 5? The answer requires a degree of speculation but as my theory goes: 

 

As the G3 Protagonist continues fighting the war against the shapers they also continue in their new quest: Satisfy their lust for power. They continue using canisters until it's all that matters anymore. Then, at some stage they agree to become an experiment. The rebels develop an early version of the geneforge in G4 for humans. You volunteer as a early test subject. It doesn't work. The process is agonizing, it drains your powers and wipes your mind. Having no further use for you the Drakons throw you out into the wastes of Gazak-Uss.* Either that or you go mad and flee. 

 

Note* Gazak-Uss is geologically very, very close to the drypeak mountains, the location where you are found and captured before you are brought before Rawal. Here

 

Evidence: 

Spoiler

Ghaldring ignores the question. He looks at one of the defensive pylons and asks, absent-mindedly, _There has been a lot of gossip. Rumor. I am curious._";
    text2 = "_You have had time to wander Terrestia. To rebuild some of your psyche._ How did he know about your memory? _To judge what you have seen._";
    text3 = "_Where do your sympathies fall? With the Shapers? Or with the rebels?_";

 

See it? Ghaldring knows about your memory loss. Seems small but Jeff felt the need to include it. Maybe its a clue to help us fill in the gaps between what happened to you between GF3 and 5. Maybe not. Either way its interesting. 

 

From there you are captured by the Shapers, and brought to the foundry. Evidence from the prison in stormhold (in spoiler): 

Spoiler

"And I was there?";
    text1 = "_You were. When they joined us, we saw that two outsiders had the third in shackles. With a hood on. They said they were taking the prisoner to the Foundry. For study._";
    
begintalknode 200;
    state = 194;
    nextstate = 195;
    condition = 1;
    question = "And I was the prisoner?";
    text1 = "_Yes. You were quiet for most of the night. Shackled to a tree. But in the morning, you tried to break free. You shook off the hood. You broke two of the chains and were working on the others when the Shaper blasted you._";
    text2 = "_A bolt of energy, enough to knock you out. And they chained you again. But, before they left with you, I saw ... something._";
    
begintalknode 201;
    state = 195;
    nextstate = 196;
    condition = 1;
    question = "What did you see?";
    text1 = "_I saw your face. You ... You were like an animal. You couldn't think. You were just ... angry. Just furious. That's all you were. And your face ... it was ... It was like wax. It seemed to shift around._";
    text2 = "_And your eyes glowed, and your hands glowed, and ... You've haunted my nightmares. That's all I can say about that._";
    
begintalknode 202;
    state = 196;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = 1;
    question = "What happened then?";
    text1 = "_They left. Quickly. Never saw any of them again. Except you, of course._";
    
begintalknode 203;
    state = 196;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = 1;
    question = "The Shaper ... What was his name?";
    text1 = "He thinks. _You know something? I have no idea. Now that I think about it, he never said his name._";
    
begintalknode 204;
    state = 196;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = 1;
    question = "Thank you for your help.";
    text1 = "_And thank you. It'll be nice to be out of here. You saved my life. Never thought that would happen._";
    action = END_TALK;

 

And from there you work as a laborer. That is until you wake up. And Geneforge 5 ensues. 

 

EVIDENCE FOR MY THEORY IN GF5:

 

Alwan Geneforge 5: Alwan recognizes you 

Spoiler

text4 = "Now that you have agreed to aid him, he looks at you closely. Something about you seems to be bothering him.";
    code =
        if (creature_type(pc_num()) != 46) 
            rs(2);
        if (has_spec_item(2) == 0)
            set_spec_item(2,1);    
            else rs(3);
        sf(42,1,2);
        sf(42,12,1);
        toggle_quest(12,1);
    break;
    
begintalknode 41;
    state = 34;
    nextstate = 35;
    condition = 1;
    question = "What is wrong?";
    text1 = "For a moment, Alwan becomes distracted. This is not a common occurrence. _You look ... You look similar to someone I ..._ He shakes his head.";
    text2 = "_No. Just similar._ He struggles to concentrate again.";

begintalknode 42;
    state = 35;
    nextstate = 30;
    condition = 1;
    question = "You recognize me?";
    text1 = "General Alwan rapidly regains his firm composure. _I have met many people in my travels. For you to resemble one of them slightly is only to be expected. My condition sometimes causes me to ... drift._";
    text2 = "_We will speak no more of it. I can aid you with your mission, if you are not ready to depart._";

 

Greta recognizes you, but presumably  lies about it. Maybe because she knows that if you find out the rebels took your mind, you could be angry, and not help them: 

Spoiler

Greta";     text1 = "As you enter the servile village, you pass a traveler going the other way. She is a lone woman, perhaps in her late twenties. Her traveling clothes are recently cleaned but heavily worn.";     text2 = "You would be concerned about a woman traveling alone on the roads of the Mera-Tev, but you immediately sense the power she holds. As you instantly detect the essence that charges her, she detects the same in you.";     text3 = "You look at each other closely. She seems familiar, but you can't tell from her enigmatic smile if she recognizes you or not. She says, _Greetings, traveler._";

"You seem familiar. Do you know who I am?";     text1 = "She says, _You don't seem familiar. Perhaps I have met you. I meet many in my travels. But I can't be sure._";     text2 = "You have no idea if she is telling the truth or not.";

"(Just walk by.)";     text1 = "You brush by her. She shrugs and moves on. As you walk away, you hear her mutter something. All you can make out are the words, _... soon enough._";     action = END_TALK;

 

She seems to be faking a warm innocent demeanor. And when she says "soon enough" it's as if she knows more then she is letting on or at least, more about what she expects you to do. 

 

Further Evidence:

 

There are 2 pieces of evidence that are the most significant that back up my series of events in Geneforge 3. 

1st) Sage Lara of The Dera Reaches (in spoiler): 

Spoiler

"Tell me who I was.";     text1 = "She nods and stares deeper into the smoke. _You were ... Once, you were significant. You were a linchpin. You are at the point of significance, where your acts ... They made a difference. They changed the course._";     text2 = "_I can't see more than that ... It is turbulent. Were you a hero? A villain? I can't ..._ The pain and stress are plainly visible on her face. _Hard to see ..._";      begintalknode 28;     state = 16;     nextstate = 17;     condition = 1;     question = "Keep going.";     text1 = "Sweat pours down her face. _You were changed. Warped. Changed yourself ... Too much. Warped you. Changed your face, your nature. Took ... Took years for your mind to connect with your body. And ..._";     text2 = "And she stops. She closes here eyes. _It is too hard to see. The forces are too strong. I am like a moth flittering around a roaring bonfire._";     action = SET_SDF 66 5 1;      begintalknode 29;     state = 17;     nextstate = 18;     condition = 1;     question = "Is that all?";     text1 = "For the first time, she turns and looks at you. _I have answered the question. You cannot know who you were. There was another person once. A person who looked vaguely similar to what you look like now. A person who fought, who acted._";     text2 = "_That person is gone. You remain. Whatever victories were won and crimes were committed no longer matter. All that matters is what you do now._";     text3 = "_This is a gift. Take it and go forward. It is all I can say._";     

 

See it? "where you a hero? A villain?".. Hard to see" - You where a hero, until - "You were changed. Warped. Changed yourself ... Too much. Warped you. Changed your face, your nature. Took ... Took years for your mind to connect with your body.". This supports my narrative in multiple ways. First she is confused as to your role, this makes sense if your role was both as a noble avenger and then as a power hungry madman. Second she says you where a linchpin and that your actions changed the course - changed the fate of the Ashen Isles perhaps? Even if no then this still wipes out any theory that you are Jared or Pol or something. You where a protagonist. Then, you warped and changed yourself too much, it even changed your face. this explains why Alwan and Greta don't recognize you right away, and also why they say you look vaguely like someone they once knew. 

 

Final Evidence: 

 

This (IMO) is the most solid evidence that supports my theory as being correct. It is a conversation held with Litalia when you discover her in the Trakovite Lair:  

 

1) Litalia seems to recognize you. 

Spoiler

There is a woman sitting at the head of this table. You meet gazes with her. It is a strange experience. You can't just see her, you can sense her. Whatever strange modifications you have experienced, she has too.";
    text2 = "Her face has the same cold, ageless quality, her eyes the same faint glow. She watches you with great interest. You aren't sure whether she recognizes you or is just pleased to be able to analyze a kindred spirit.";

 

2) You once bore a great grudge against her. 

Spoiler

"Why do you look at me like that? Do you know who I am?";
    text1 = "She thinks carefully before she responds. _No. I do not know who you are. But I do know that you, like me, have been altered, forever separated from our kind by Shaper magic._";
    text2 = "You try to tell if she is lying or not, but her face is blank. For all you know, you bore a great grudge against her once. There is no way of knowing yet.";

 

See? "For all you know you bore a great grudge against her once".

 

This is the story of GF3. A student who seeks revenge at any cost on the woman who killed their peers and teachers. A person who in the process of trying to gain the power to enact justice, lost their way and their mind. Someone who (according to sage lara) committed crimes - Murdering Khyryk and Lord Rahul. Someone who "changed themselves too much" and who's actions changed the course of history. And who is that person? "for all you know you bore a great grudge against her once". It's you. 

 

The final piece of evidence I have is what Litalia says to you if you kill her:

Spoiler

"At last, Litalia, one of the most hated and feared villains of the Shapers, is brought to justice. A powerful and violent rebel, she has at last come up against a stronger force.";
    text2 = "She falls to the ground. As she looks up at you, you can see that she is losing control of the incredible power within her. The energy in essence slowly leaks out, giving her an eerie glow.";
    text3 = "As she slowly disintegrates, she looks up at you. Then she smiles. _Always so ... So driven. Always having to ... to ... Rest. I am sorry.

 

"I am sorry". Why would Litalia feel the need to apologize in GF5 to you?

Because in GF3 she destroyed your school, killed your friends and classmates and threw your life into turmoil. 

Edited by Aleister

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Since you wrote asking for my opinion...

 

Although I too see the G3 protagonist as the simplest possible fit, there is a fair bit here that I disagree with.

 

1) You state at a certain point "the following is my theory" but what you said prior to that is also theoretical.  It's one way G3 can play out, but it's definitely not established as canon.

 

2) Although I agree that the G3 protagonist is the simplest possible fit for "became massively corrupted" plus "gets strong reactions from Greta, Alwan, and Litalia" especially in the context of what they have to say, independently, about the G3 protagonist... the G4 protagonist also fits those things relatively well... and surely there are numerous other shapers and lifecrafters who also had some interaction will all three of those central figures.

 

3) I'm not even going to get into the "Red Skull Tesseract" theory except to say that it is appropriate you have chosen to use a reboot that butchered the original story to describe this, um, unexpected theory ;)

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps this is the wrong thread but... what happens if you try to finish the game as a servile working for Taygen? Are you done for when the disease is released?

 

As for the GF3 protagonist, that's what I want to believe although it creates some loops. Ghaldring also recognizes you I think. Of course he could have met the GF3 protagonist once he was geneforged or something.

 

Random answers: About Litalia apologizing: It's not that she was nice to you in GF4. You were grabbed and Geneforged without anyone telling you would probably end up mad or a ball of goo.

Also: "For all you know, you bore a great grudge against her once. There is no way of knowing yet." I.e. the previous is a hypothesis the protagonist makes.

Edited by alhoon

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1 hour ago, Preferential Depletement said:

3) I'm not even going to get into the "Red Skull Tesseract" theory except to say that it is appropriate you have chosen to use a reboot that butchered the original story to describe this, um, unexpected theory ;)

Just a prompt to help people visualize. Something like that must have happened tho yes? Otherwise how could he be alive in GF4, when the rebels won the GF3 conflict? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Preferential Depletement said:

1) You state at a certain point "the following is my theory" but what you said prior to that is also theoretical.  It's one way G3 can play out, but it's definitely not established as canon.

 

2) Although I agree that the G3 protagonist is the simplest possible fit for "became massively corrupted" plus "gets strong reactions from Greta, Alwan, and Litalia" especially in the context of what they have to say, independently, about the G3 protagonist... the G4 protagonist also fits those things relatively well... and surely there are numerous other shapers and lifecrafters who also had some interaction will all three of those central figures.

 

1) Ah my bad, although I did state at the start that this whole thing was just my theory. 

 

2) Like you said, the GF3 protagonist fits this the most closely. And imo makes for the most interesting story. Besides have u read the bit about Sage Lara? What she has to say doesn't exactly leave room open for it to be anyone other then a previous games protagonist.

Edited by Aleister

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, alhoon said:

Also: "For all you know, you bore a great grudge against her once. There is no way of knowing yet." I.e. the previous is a hypothesis the protagonist makes.

Awfully convenient hypothesis considering everything we know about the geneforge 3 narrative. Sounds a lot more like a vague recollection then a random stab in the dark.  

 

Edit: Not trying to sound overly critical of anyone's opinions or thoughts! Just try to understand that this theory is something I'm invested in, so I'm going to defend it in the absence of evidence to dispute it. :)  Keen to hear what everyone has to say. Just as long as you aren't being overly critical for the sake of it. I know that it isn't bulletproof, but in a world where Khyryk's get ripped to shreds and dissolves only to reappear in the next game, and whole continents cease to exist across games we can only do what we can do

Edited by Aleister

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32 minutes ago, Aleister said:

Awfully convenient hypothesis considering everything we know about the geneforge 3 narrative. Sounds a lot more like a vague recollection then a random stab in the dark.

 

"For all you know" is pretty idiomatically clear.  It's not even a random stab in the dark.  It's explicitly not an attempt at remembering something.  It means: "You have no idea, it could be anything, it could even be this random extreme, it could be this other random extreme, etc."

 

34 minutes ago, Aleister said:

in a world where Khyryk's get ripped to shreds and dissolves only to reappear in the next game

 

What are you talking about?  Khyryk doesn't have to die in G3 even as played by the player, and canonically, he doesn't die in G3.  This is not a conflict of facts.

 

Look, I just think you are jumping to conclusions.  Sage Lara, for example.  I certainly agree that her description would fit a previous PC, and this is obvious enough that I'm even willing to call it suggestive.  But you assert her description "doesn't exactly leave room open for it to be anyone other then" a previous PC, which is nonsense.  This war lasted for years and spanned a continent.  No doubt there were more than two people who found themselves at critical junctures, with the ability to influence what would come to pass.  And no doubt some of those people were heavily modified.  Yes, the previous PCs come to mind quickly, but it's 100% plausible that there are other people who also fit that description.  In fact, given how much both sides seem to enjoy creating lifecrafters and powering them up quickly, once the war gets started, I'd be pretty surprised if there weren't any others.

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7 minutes ago, Preferential Depletement said:

What are you talking about?  Khyryk doesn't have to die in G3 even as played by the player, and canonically, he doesn't die in G3.  This is not a conflict of facts.

Doesn't he? I thought that no matter the actions of the player if you want the rebel ending you have to kill him? And "canonically" the ending for g3 is the rebel ending? So how is it possible for him to be alive other then an inconsistency in the games? 

 

I agree that it is possible for any random who was modified and met Litalia, Greta and Alwan to be who sage lara is talking about. But what would be the point in that? Throw in all this suggestive information and go through all the effort scripting clues into the games just to go - nope, actually ur some random. Suggestive information is all we have to work off. Just because it isn't concrete or their can be alternatives means little.

 

I feel the need to say again: This is just a theory, it's a flawed yet convincing look at the events I personally think transpired in order for the gf3 = gf5 main character add up. We could go back and forwards over the alternative possibilities and minor hiccups. But thats all been done before. I'm offering and vouching for a perspective. That doesnt mean I'm discrediting anyone elses. It is up to the individual to agree or disagree, so long as all the facts are accounted for, as I have attempted to do. 

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57 minutes ago, Aleister said:

Doesn't he? I thought that no matter the actions of the player if you want the rebel ending you have to kill him? And "canonically" the ending for g3 is the rebel ending? So how is it possible for him to be alive other then an inconsistency in the games? 

 

As I said in the last thread:

15 hours ago, Preferential Depletement said:

There are numerous examples of where no achievable ending to a GF game perfectly fits what happens between it and the following game.  It is extremely clear that Jeff does not simply pick an ending and cleave to it.  So even in cases where one ending seems to largely fit, there's absolutely no reason to assume that any details that aren't referenced in future games (like what the PC did) actually played out they way they would have if you the player achieved that ending.

 

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58 minutes ago, Aleister said:

Suggestive information is all we have to work off. Just because it isn't concrete or their can be alternatives means little.

Yes, this is why I agree that the G3 protagonist is probably the best fit.  What the lack of concreteness means -- and the lack of any facts contradicting numerous possible alternatives -- is that it's the best fit among many possible fits.

 

1 hour ago, Aleister said:

I feel the need to say again: This is just a theory, it's a flawed yet convincing look at the events I personally think transpired in order for the gf3 = gf5 main character add up. We could go back and forwards over the alternative possibilities and minor hiccups. But thats all been done before. I'm offering and vouching for a perspective. That doesnt mean I'm discrediting anyone elses. It is up to the individual to agree or disagree, so long as all the facts are accounted for, as I have attempted to do. 

It's a theory that you asked for feedback about and are earnestly defending.  Which is great!  But you don't then get to say hey, it's just my opinion, stop making logical arguments about it :)  And you certainly don't get to say that you want each individual to "agree or disagree" based on your long write-up, but not based on the criticism offered by others.  (Which, maybe is not what you're actually asking for here?  If I'm misinterpreting, please correct...)

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Frankly, the Monarch from GF4 also fits the description and is a fan-favorite. I also prefer to think it's the GF3 protagonist (or GF4 protagonist) but the way the game is written, is on purpose vague so you could assume it's your GF4 servile (if you play a servile) or your GF3 agent (if you play a sorceress-agent-infiltrator). 
What we know is that the GF5 protagonist was an important person that Greta, Litalia and Alwan recognize and perhaps Ghaldring has seen. Nothing else. The rest is conjecture. 

 

Everything you said about the GF3 protagonist, fits the GF4 protagonist too. He\she has met the big four, he\she was over the switch with the "destroy the Unbound" \ "finish the Unbound" (a vastly important decision) and Litalia has reasons to think you are pissed with her for the way she threw you under the bus twice in GF4.  

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9 hours ago, Preferential Depletement said:

Yes, this is why I agree that the G3 protagonist is probably the best fit.  What the lack of concreteness means -- and the lack of any facts contradicting numerous possible alternatives -- is that it's the best fit among many possible fits.

 

It's a theory that you asked for feedback about and are earnestly defending.  Which is great!  But you don't then get to say hey, it's just my opinion, stop making logical arguments about it :)  And you certainly don't get to say that you want each individual to "agree or disagree" based on your long write-up, but not based on the criticism offered by others.  (Which, maybe is not what you're actually asking for here?  If I'm misinterpreting, please correct...)

I'm not saying you can't say anything, I'm just saying keep in mind (etc.). Although I do see the potential contradictions with me asking for feedback - and within that criticism - that I will defend, without turning it into a debate. I was trying to avoid debating the topic as it has been done previously on multiple threads. Alas you can't have your cake and eat it too. 

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2 hours ago, alhoon said:

Frankly, the Monarch from GF4 also fits the description and is a fan-favorite. I also prefer to think it's the GF3 protagonist (or GF4 protagonist) but the way the game is written, is on purpose vague so you could assume it's your GF4 servile (if you play a servile) or your GF3 agent (if you play a sorceress-agent-infiltrator). 
What we know is that the GF5 protagonist was an important person that Greta, Litalia and Alwan recognize and perhaps Ghaldring has seen. Nothing else. The rest is conjecture. 

 

Everything you said about the GF3 protagonist, fits the GF4 protagonist too. He\she has met the big four, he\she was over the switch with the "destroy the Unbound" \ "finish the Unbound" (a vastly important decision) and Litalia has reasons to think you are pissed with her for the way she threw you under the bus twice in GF4.  

 

Agreed: 

Quote

From my last thread: What if Jeff deliberately put evidence (sometimes seemingly conflicting) for the GF 5 protagonist being the GF 2, 3, or 4 protagonist in the Geneforge 5 game as a fan service. Your favorite game GF2? Congrats heres part II of your story. Loved the story of the three survivors going from isle to isle changing the world and potentially avenging their dead classmates and teachers? Congrats, here's part II. Want to know what happens to GF 4 protagonist? U can work with that too etc. I would not be surprised if this was exactly what was going through Jeff's mind when he decided not to give us a concrete answer. 

 

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14 hours ago, alhoon said:

Perhaps this is the wrong thread but... what happens if you try to finish the game as a servile working for Taygen? Are you done for when the disease is released?

 

There's an extra line of text for that specific circumstance. You get very sick but eventually recover, presumably due to being so heavily and repeatedly reshaped that the disease doesn't know what to do with you.

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14 minutes ago, Lilith said:

 

There's an extra line of text for that specific circumstance. You get very sick but eventually recover, presumably due to being so heavily and repeatedly reshaped that the disease doesn't know what to do with you.

Interesting. Are there many other changes to the endings when playing as a servile across various sects? Are there any where the ending is more positive? 

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I don't remember any other differences for playing a servile, but I didn't do every ending as both a servile and a non-servile so I can't say for sure. In general, the number of things that affect the ending text in G5 is quite small (mostly just which faction you sided with and whether certain NPCs are alive), and the possible variations on each faction's ending are pretty minor. There's an older thread that sets out some information about the possible endings, although it doesn't have an exhaustive list of which actions affect which ending.

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On 6/12/2019 at 11:40 PM, Aleister said:

 

*very snip, such text, much wow*

 

See? Seems like we get conflicting information in GF4 from the two of them. Unless this theory is correct.

 

The simplest way for it to be consistent with G4 would be for Greta to leave after the second island because you kill the rebels, and Alwan to leave you after the third island because you repair the creator.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, TheKian said:

The simplest way for it to be consistent with G4 would be for Greta to leave after the second island because you kill the rebels, and Alwan to leave you after the third island because you repair the creator.

 

On 6/13/2019 at 2:40 PM, Aleister said:

Association with that Shaper resulted in ... in problems. I am not responsible, but some won't realize that.- Alwan, GF4

 

The only thing I don't like about this is that it means that Alwan and Greta spent both less time together and with the player.

What your saying here makes sense, certainly simpler then what I've proposed. The reason I went with switching on the next island is because it allowed more time for the player to gain and use more canisters. Which makes their going mad more believable. Swapping sides earlier when they had more sanity would be less consistent with the nature of the player - at least as far as my version of the story goes. 

 

Edit: I just finished a play through of GF3 where I tested to see if this is even doable - it is. I destroyed the spawner on Greenwood Isle, helped the shaper on Harmony Isle, destroyed the spawner on Dhonals Isle, and arrived on gull island with the rebels initially hostile. There is a servile in the caverns of Gull Island that can put in good word for you and allow you to go to stonespire and receive the quest to kill kryryk. You can alternatively just kill him without recieving the quest and the rebels on gull island will still go friendly and give you access to the docks. Doing this will grant you access to the docks in Khors deep and travel to the Isle of Spears where you can join the rebels. Reguardless of how many times you undid their work on previous islands. Greta leaves you at the docks after destroying the spawner on Dhonals Isle and Alwan leaves you at the docks on your way to The Isle of Spears if you killed Kryryk. 

 

 

Edited by Aleister

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It's been a while since I played a Geneforge game, so I can't get into details. As far as I remember, though, none of the evidence is conclusive, some of it is questionable, and a few pieces are vague enough that they could each apply to multiple characters. The protagonist of G3 probably does have the strongest case, if we're going to look at this logically, but it's still (by design) an open question.

 

My preferred conclusion relies on drama to cover what logic can't: The protagonist of the final game in the series is actually the protagonist of the first game (also, possibly, Monarch), the story begun and ended by the same person. There may actually be some evidence against this one, but c'mon - who doesn't like to see an epic story come full circle?

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2 hours ago, ThricebornPhoenix said:

My preferred conclusion relies on drama to cover what logic can't: The protagonist of the final game in the series is actually the protagonist of the first game (also, possibly, Monarch), the story begun and ended by the same person. There may actually be some evidence against this one, but c'mon - who doesn't like to see an epic story come full circle?

If Monarch is indeed the protagonist of G5, it wouldn't make sense because in G4, BOTH the rebels and shapers hated Monarch for letting creations run a muck with no control. The player is given a choice whether or not to release him into the west side of Terrestia (where G5 does take plac), but Monarch would have been hunted down and killed on sight.

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Or gone bat-crazy, insane and locked in the Foundry to be studied by people that don't suspect who he is. 

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