Geneforge Guardians "weak"?

[Vinlie]

I read a lot of forums and Youtube comments on Geneforge because I find them to be enjoyable and entertaining. A topic that keeps coming up is that Guardians are "weak" and "not viable". I exclusively play Guardian whenever I play through Geneforge and I've never felt handicapped or inferior to a magic user in the slightest. My build would consist of high melee weapons, quick action, parry, and intelligence (for a couple of creations mainly varying in the Fire Shaping column) and everything in between. I would often feel *too* powerful despite playing on Torment. Does anyone else share the opinion of Guardians being quite underwhelming? If so, let me know why and what you would to do change them. If not, share your Guardian build! I'm curious on how someone would do a missile weapons build, I've never done one before. 

 

Long live the Rebellion

-Vinny

[Randomizer]

Guardians are not weak! At least not if they are built correctly as you pointed out. Agents are easier and can do most everything a Guardian can, but that doesn't make them weak.

 

I've played missile weapon build Guardians and they are easier in the early games where you run out of action points closing with your enemies and can't attack. The chief problem I found in GF2 was running out of the best missile weapons and choosing when to upgrade to make it easier to kill on Torment difficulty. But being able to attack from a distance especially when faced with creations using mostly range attacks is great.

[alhoon]

Long live the rebellion comrade.

First, it's not Guardians, it's warriors and Warriors-that-trained-with-the-hated-Shapers. :P

 

I also thought Guardians Warriors were the weakest. I still think they are weaker than Shapers Lifecrafters in GF3-4 but perhaps that's just my playstyle. In GF3, at least in the not-late parts, more Vlish = more power. My Shaper rarely gets into combat as I keep back and bless\heal my Vlish. They are simply better than my spells or attacks although I haven't used a Guardian in GF3 to see if he can outperform the Vlish by the time the difference in levels grows large enough.
People say that GF2 is the Guardian's game but... I prefer Shapers so I went with that.

 

PS. We've made a mod for Guardians for GF5 that incorporates Gamerman's artifact batons mod and also has some artifact weapons.

Edited August 30, 2018 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Warriors are weaker because Jeff set the default resistances lower for them compared to Guardians. That's the only real difference.

[Vinlie]

Guardians Warriors are super fun for me because once I get mass energize I can instantly just pummel any opponent in front of me lol. 

[alhoon]

4 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Warriors are weaker because Jeff set the default resistances lower for them compared to Guardians. That's the only real difference.

Don't they also get a little more essence?

Edited August 31, 2018 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

Guardians start out with more essence, but fall behind Warriors according to Slarty.

[Vinlie]

So in the end are Guardians or Warriors more viable in terms of all around versatility?

[alhoon]

10 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Guardians start out with more essence, but fall behind Warriors according to Slarty.

In GF5 that is the only game with both Guardians and Warriors, once the warrior hits 15 intelligence and 25 level, I think the guardian is left behind despite the early bonus. And with so many very powerful creations available, more essence = more power.

[TheKian]

On 8/31/2018 at 3:38 AM, alhoon said:

In GF5 that is the only game with both Guardians and Warriors, once the warrior hits 15 intelligence and 25 level, I think the guardian is left behind despite the early bonus. And with so many very powerful creations available, more essence = more power.

I believe that the Guardian in GF5 (and the other Shaper classes, for that matter) still have higher resistances than their counterparts.

[Vinlie]

Uh I believe S e r v i l l e s are master race?

[Slawbug]

What no one has mentioned, for some reason, is that the relative strength of Guardians is very different in different Geneforge games.

 

G1 - Definitely an effective class, though not "easy mode" like shapers are

G2 - Arguably the best class, certainly a strong and straightforward option

G3 - Seriously nerfed; weakest option by far

G4 - Warriors instead of Guardians; still very weak

G5 - Still very weak, although the unintentional inherent resistances of the 3 older classes at least offer some reason to use a Guardian

[alhoon]

Having played a Guardian in GF5 I have to say that he's not very weak. I had to increase the difficulty of some battles because a well equipped Guardian backed with a couple of Tralls is very formidable. Not as much as Shaper but still even without completing every quest, you can take down the final battles without too much trouble especially if you invest in inventory that makes your creations stronger instead of making you stronger. 4-5 high tier creations at +2 attack is better than you at +4 attack since they make more attacks. Speed spores and that chaos spores thing help as well.

And since I suck at using magic for offense properly, Agents \ infiltrators would be more difficult for me IMO.

 

But I would agree that on GF3 the Guardian is the weakest option. But not "by far" IMO. A Guardian will not probably have as much intelligence as an agent so he would have less ability to back creations with mind-bazooka and blessing magic. But since he won't need essence for much else, he could squeeze by to have as many or perhaps more creations than an Agent and theoretically he would get them earlier and at a bit higher Shaping bonus so I think they would be a few levels higher than the Agent's.

[Vinlie]

Geneforge 3 Guardians didn't seem underpowered for me. Well, maybe at the beginning it was a little tougher because you had no HP and tons of enemies attacked at once, but around 30% of the way through the game it just got extremely easy (thanks to the access to the Crystalline Shroud, +2 AP points and 13% HER), hell, at the end I was just way too powerful for my own good, and I wasn't even playing a canister junkie.

https://imgur.com/a/YPE72dW

https://imgur.com/a/NOEzYz7

Edited September 3, 2018 by Vinlie

[Slawbug]

None of the Geneforge games are very hard with any class, if you are good with tactics and pay attention to what works and doesn't in the engine.  Yes, that is even true for most parts of the game on Torment if you really know what you're doing.

 

That doesn't mean the classes are all equally strong.  And, indeed, they aren't, not even close.

[Vinlie]

What's the hardest Geneforge game then? I'd say G3 was the hardest, but it wasn't frustratingly challenging, just harder than others IMO.

[alhoon]

Shaper on the first part of GF3 is next to cheat mode. Although that Guardian you presented seems immortal.

Edited September 3, 2018 by alhoon

[Vinlie]

Yeah that's late game with the best gear infused with Golden Crystals so immortal is correct. I've never even played a Shaper playthrough before so I wouldn't know how powerful it is.

[Randomizer]

Shapers depend upon what creations they use and which game since Jeff kept tweaking them. Also when you upgrade to the next tier.

[alhoon]

Equipment for Shapers in the last two games is very important too. My Shaper's equipment in GF5 gave my creations like +8-12 to all stats.

[Vinlie]

Idk I exclusively use Fyora-Cryoa-Drayk-Drakon as a Guardian because they get 2 fire shaping off the bat. Shapers are just hella frail and it ain't my style. My style is my Guardian and 2 creations of my choosing being buffed by Mass Energize and Protection. Really quick and effective strategy tbh.

[alhoon]

Well, my style is my Shaper in a corner 2 expendable creations and 4 big ones that I level and treat well. 5 when I can afford it. What I consider as "big" depends on what I have available. I always keep my trusty Cryora though through the whole game.

[Vinlie]

Hah I do the same thing! I love keeping a Cryoa the whole game too lmao

[alhoon]

My Shaper's Cryora can take an Unbound by late game without me using blessing magic on her. She can beat your Cryoa every day of the week! :P

Edited September 3, 2018 by alhoon

[Vinlie]

Okay you win my Cryoa can take on a Drakon but not an Unbound. May I ask how much health you Cryoa has?

[Slawbug]

G4 is probably the hardest -- its semi-linear progression through areas means that you can't always "just wait till you're stronger", and it doesn't have any of the things that made particular classes "easy mode" in the previous 3 games, nor does it have the nutso bonus resistances of G5.  G5 is probably harder than the first three as well -- not as much as G4, but it at least does balance out some of the creations that were a little too good in G4 (*cough cough* wingbolts)

 

Alternate answer: G1 and G2 are the hardest because you have to use that @#$ inventory interface

[Randomizer]

15 minutes ago, Into consciousness madeconscious outofthe darkness said:

Alternate answer: G1 and G2 are the hardest because you have to use that @#$ inventory interface

GF3 is worse because you have that inventory interface and the islands where you can spend lots of time just shifting the stored extras from island to island and across each island to get to the next boat.

[alhoon]

I found GF2 harder playing as a Shaper than GF5 to be sincere.

[Vinlie]

Geneforge 3's inventory and in general gives me hefty frame lag. Anyone know how to fix it?

[PerishedFraud]

I fixed mine by installing a mod for ddraw support. The usual method wouldn't work. It wasn't a geneforge-specific mod, rather something for all games like that.

 

It also worked for G2 and G1.

 

 

[Vinlie]

Could you elaborate a little bit? D'you think you could quickly explain how one installs that?

[TheKian]

On 9/3/2018 at 10:05 PM, Vinlie said:

Could you elaborate a little bit? D'you think you could quickly explain how one installs that?

There is a stickied thread about performance issues. If the solutions in there don't work, here is a thread from GOG which likely concerns the DDraw mod previously mentioned.