G4 Barrier Bros

[Shadow Wulfe]

It's been asked before but I'm not 100% clear. So, can I get credit from both rebels AND shapers if I fix Moseh... then go back and kill Eliza/Shaftoe?

[Randomizer]

Yes, but it's harder to kill them after fixing Moseh. You need to fix/kill Moseh to get into the next area.

[Shadow Wulfe]

Sure, but does it satisfy both parties?

[Triumph]

The answer is yes, because they are different goals. The Shapers want you to fix Moseh. The Rebels want you to kill one of the Barrier Zone defenders. That means if you fix Moseh and kill Eliza or Shaftoe, and make sure to report back to both the Shapers and the Rebels about your "success" before trying to leave the province, they'll both be happy with you, you double-crossing no-good swindler.

[Shadow Wulfe]

Nice! Only asking so I can have some quests open past the Monarch chapter. I'm playing hardline rebel, but at the same time don't want to completely shut off the Shaper side.

 

Edit: So I repaired Moseh and offed the other two psychopaths, but from the dialogue with Pirik... are the rebels still trapped in the province or what?

Edited October 5, 2017 by Shadow Wulfe

[alhoon]

Perhaps killing the others first, reporting to the rebels and then killing Moseh? Of course that means you don't have their help...

[Slawbug]

Those are different goals, but Moseh is the main trigger for how each party reacts.  The only things that you can't combine are helping Moseh and killing Moseh -- it's one of the other on that, and that is what determines the (story) outcome for the barrier zone.

 

http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4q.html

 

If the Rebels seem unhappy, it's also possible your reputation is just on the Shaper side.

[Shadow Wulfe]

Agh, maybe I will just stick with ultra Hardline rebel. They aren't mad or anything , but I just feel like kind of an ass.

[TheKian]

By the way, if you want to play both sides until the very end, the two key moments are giving someone Monarch's papers in the Fens of Azirpah and, of course, Moseh. If you restored Moseh, you need to give the rebels the papers. If you killed Moseh (and lied your way out of getting in trouble with Alwan), you need to give the Shapers the papers. Also, if you do keep sitting on the fence, make sure that you go into Burwood via the Shaper route, or the Shaper infiltrators will be hostile.

[Nim]

3 hours ago, TheKian said:

If you restored Moseh, you need to give the rebels the papers.

This is wrong. Greta will let you go into Burwood anyway.

[alhoon]

I don't think so Nim. I think TheKian is right and if you restore Moseh and give the papers to the Shapers Greta will not allow you to go into Burwood.

[Shadow Wulfe]

Hm, I guess if I wanted to go for a moderate route I could kill Moseh (allowing the rebels to not be bottled in) and maybe give the papers to the Shapers.

 

When I played years ago fencing wasn't that big of a deal, but for some reason this time the Shaper rhetoric is coming off too much sounding like Emperor Palpatine promising to restore peace, prosperity, and order to the galaxy.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Shadow Wulfe said:

Hm, I guess if I wanted to go for a moderate route I could kill Moseh (allowing the rebels to not be bottled in) and maybe give the papers to the Shapers.

 

When I played years ago fencing wasn't that big of a deal, but for some reason this time the Shaper rhetoric is coming off too much sounding like Emperor Palpatine promising to restore peace, prosperity, and order to the galaxy.

 

Yes because the Shapers are the most evil of the two evil sides. The Drakons are bad, but the Rebellion is more than the Drakons.

Edited October 6, 2017 by alhoon

[Slawbug]

Alhoon and TheKian are correct.  If you split the Moseh and Monarch's notes decisions between the two sides, they will both give you access to their exit from the Fens, but if you pick the same side for both, the other side will not give you access.

[Nim]

Yeah no. Restored Moseh and gave the notes to the shapers.

[Shadow Wulfe]

I guess it's settled then, I'll just go whole hog Rebel route, then next time whole hog Shaper. I had been under the impression that killing Shaftoe and Eliza gets them out of the Illya.

[Slawbug]

Hmm.  That's weird.  Maybe there's also a reputation check involved?

 

I don't have G4 installed, but perhaps someone else can look up the script and see what gets checked.

[TheKian]

The rebels don't trust you if you give the Shapers the papers, but they let you through. Greta (should) let you through regardless (there's no reputation check, though the dialogue changes if you killed Moseh before). However, as I was saying, if you are fence sitting you should help one faction with each. Strictly speaking, you don't NEED to help the rebels, but it'll make your reputation with them problematically low.

[Nim]

How exactly is rebel rep being low a problem ?
From what I can see you would lose this if you go all out shaper

Spoiler

 

Khur

clawbug/2x roamer canisters ilya safehouse

firecaster gauntlets

girdle of life

Mental Focus Charm

Stasis Shield
Puresteel Boots

 

Apart from the mental focus charm that seems mostly trash. Low rebel rep doesn't stop you from going for the rebel ending so going full shaper or fence sitting both seem fine. Otoh going full rebel is going to lose you quite a bit more.

[Shadow Wulfe]

For the record I'm not powergaming; I was just wondering if I could get away with Rebel and Shaper win credit for Illya if I did it that way.

[alhoon]

Khur? Khur can join fence sitters? I didn't have him with me and the Shapers were not trusting me either.

Low rebel rep means you have to fight through armies of Drakons that otherwise you can just walk by. 

 

[Triumph]

Spoiler

begintalknode 42;
    state = 20;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = gf(100,12) == 1;
    question = "The papers were destroyed in the fight. They're gone now. (Lie.)";
    text1 = "Greta nods slowly. _I see. I see. That is very ... plausible. Believable, in a way._ But you can plainly see it in her eyes. She doesn't believe you.";
    text2 = "_Then it is time for me to give you your next orders. I will proceed north to Burwood Province. You will stay here in the fens. You will fight the Shapers. You will clean up the excess rogues._";
    text3 = "_For now, you will need to stay out of rebel-controlled lands. Just a ... precaution. Perhaps, later, we will be able to allow you in. But I think we are safest if you stay here._";
    text4 = "You turn to go. As you are about to leave the room, she says, _Wait. I ... I don't have enough help. I do not trust you. And yet I have to trust you. I need to give you one more chance._";
    text5 = "_You've done much for us in the past, enough to earn my accepting this ... shaky story. If you betray us, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold, on the coast._";
    text6 = "_If you betray us, well, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold. It is on the coast. And I curse us for our weakness that makes me have to trust you._";    
    code =
        set_flag(44,13,5);
        toggle_quest(65,1);
        sf(44,10,1);
        toggle_quest(64,3);
        if (gf(100,1) < 5)
            sf(100,1,5);
        if (gf(100,0) <= 90)
            rs(6);
            else rs(5);
    break;    

 

Here's the full script from the encounter in the screenshot above.

From looking in other scripts, I *think* gf(100,0) might be reputation, with the script giving either section 5 or section 6 depending how low or high that reputation is.

[Triumph]

For comparison, consider the conversations with Crowley and Miranda if you fail to give Monarch's papers to the Shapers:

 

Crowley:

Spoiler

begintalknode 21;
    state = 10;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = gf(42,13) >= 5 && gf(100,8) < 2;
    question = "Can I go north to Burwood Province now?";
    text1 = "_Miranda has told me that you have failed us. Just as you failed General Alwan. Though we appreciate your defeat of Shaper Monarch, your persistance in not giving us everything we want is most troubling._";
    text2 = "_After long thought, I have decided that you were sincere in your desire to help us. Thus, I am not going to kill you right at this moment. But I am not going to aid you further._";
    text3 = "_Do not look to the Shapers for succor. We and you are no longer dealing with each other. Get out of my camp. And, if you return, I might not be so merciful._";
    action = END_TALK;

 

And Miranda:

Spoiler

begintalknode 69;
    state = 60;
    nextstate = -1;
    condition = gf(42,12) > 0 && gf(100,11) > 0 && gf(100,12) == 2;
    question = "Shaper Monarch has been defeated, but the stolen papers were destroyed. (Lie.)";
    text1 = "Miranda looks confused, and then alarmed. _Destroyed? I ... I somewhat doubt that. Such a treasure would not be left without powerful protection. Perhaps you were slow. Or careless. Or perhaps you ..._";
    text2 = "She thinks for a bit, considering all the things that might have happened to the papers. Judging from the expression on her face, none of the options look good for you.";
     text3 = "_Maybe you destroyed the papers. Maybe you lost them. And maybe you betrayed us. In these circumstances, suspicion is close to guilt._";
    text4 = "_I am not the one to choose the consequences for this. Go and speak with the general. He will know what is to be done with you._";
    code =
        set_flag(42,13,5);
        toggle_quest(57,3);
    break;

Telling Miranda you "lost" the papers sets flag 42,13 to 5, and then Crowley checks that flag and sees it's greater than or equal to 5. Crowley also checks to see if flag 100,8 is less than 2. In the Rivergate script, when you tell Alwan you helped Moseh, the game sets flag 100,8's value to 2. So, Crowley's text above is contingent on BOTH failing to help Moseh AND failing to deliver the papers. Notice how there's no comparable check in Greta's conversation. The Rebels may not trust you, but they won't give up on you, whereas you MUST do something big for the Shapers in either Ilya or Aziraph to convince them you're useful.

What I want to know is whether, after you fail the Shapers in Illya and Aziraph, you are locked out of the Shaper endgame. Will all the Shapers in Burwood and beyond automatically be hostile to you?

[alhoon]

OK then, Nim is right. From the Script even if you betray the Rebels twice they still allow you to help.

[Nim]

6 hours ago, alhoon said:

Khur? Khur can join fence sitters? I didn't have him with me and the Shapers were not trusting me either.

Low rebel rep means you have to fight through armies of Drakons that otherwise you can just walk by. 

 

Khur joins if your rep is 100 or lower. And where do you get this idea that you have to fight armies of drakons ??? Grayghost Gates/Khima Uss has nothing to do with rep, that's simply the result of giiving the shapers the specs.

 

2 hours ago, Triumph said:

From looking in other scripts, I *think* gf(100,0) might be reputation,

It is.

 

1 hour ago, Triumph said:

What I want to know is whether, after you fail the Shapers in Illya and Aziraph, you are locked out of the Shaper endgame. Will all the Shapers in Burwood and beyond automatically be hostile to you?

Yes, you can forget about heping the Infiltrators and Poryphra will be hostile. If you manage to not get the Restore Moseh quest then you can forget about Shaper Camp Gamma too.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Nim said:

Khur joins if your rep is 100 or lower. And where do you get this idea that you have to fight armies of drakons ??? Grayghost Gates/Khima Uss has nothing to do with rep, that's simply the result of giiving the shapers the specs.

 

Hmm... I didn't know that you could pass mostly-free to the first Drakon city (the one with Salassar) if you had low rebel reputation. 

Taking into account your insight, I should better have said:

The Shapers pay better but if you're a hardcore Shaper and do all their quests you have to fight armies of Drakons.

 

However, I remember several areas swarming with drakons. Are all those reachable "peacefully" by Shaper supporters? (It's not that the Drakons let a rebel in complete peace either).

  won't go combing for scripts, but it seems weird that a clear pro-Shaper would be entrusted by both Litalia and the Drakons to go deep in Drakon-held lands and then Northforge.

 

Khur: Is he the "We're all going to die!" servile? That one joined me. Moseh liquefied him I think.

Edited October 6, 2017 by alhoon

[Nim]

Khur is the servile in Ilya Safehouse whose group was killed in Nort Ilya Woods (?) and yeah he gets killed by Moseh (not sure if he can actually survive that encounter).

 

Looking at the scripts, there is one encounter where shaper rep gets you out of a fight (Matala). Khur attacks you when you go too much towards the shapers. That seems to be it.  The drakons at quessa uss gates certainly don't attack on sight, neither do the ones in grayghost or Khima.

 

How much sense that makes is up to you, I don't think Jeff likes to restrict too much content. And G4 already has the shaper side potentially cutting you off and the unbound specs locking you into an ending and removing some stuff in Khima.

 

[Randomizer]

Khur dies if he is there, otherwise your character loses stat points instead.

[TheKian]

5 hours ago, Triumph said:

What I want to know is whether, after you fail the Shapers in Illya and Aziraph, you are locked out of the Shaper endgame. Will all the Shapers in Burwood and beyond automatically be hostile to you?

If I recall correctly, the Shaper infiltrators will be hostile if you do not enter Burwood via the Shaper passage, and the Shapers in Poryphra will automatically attack you if you enter the city and did not either restore Moseh or give Miranda the papers. I think that Shaper soldiers are hostile to you no matter which faction you are aside from those specific locations (so they'll attack you in the western parts of Burwood regardless, I believe).