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alhoon

GF2 - My playthrough (full of spoilers)

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The big thing in G2 was that it introduced a second dimension to the sects.  Instead of just being about servile rights, now the sects also dealt with the question of responsible use of power (which was a separate question in G1).  So you get:

 

Loyalists -- no servile rights, restrain power

Awakened -- servile rights, restrain power

Barzites -- no servile rights, unrestrained power

Takers -- servile rights, unrestrained power

 

This misses a few nuances -- the Awakened are less absolute in restraining power than the Shaper Council; the Loyalists are less absolute in hating serviles than the Barzites; etc.  But it is the basic setup.  See also:

 

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/9051-geneforge-philosophy-gridg5/#comment-97023

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

Servile rights or creation rights? The Barzites treat the creations HORRIBLY. All creations. Except that one Gazer. They make no effort to make creations comfortable and their "pacification pylons" cause creations pain. OK, the Shaper cities are also full of that terrible whips that they use to discipline serviles and creations, but they don't keep them in constant pain.

 

11 hours ago, Triumph said:

...So they are rebellious but NOT rebels? :p  LOL.

 

No it's not. The Shapers are know to exterminate those who violate their law (as you've referenced repeatedly with the story of Litalia et al.). Every group in the Drypeak Mountains knows it's only a matter of time before the Shapers come and try to wipe them out for they way they break from Shaper orthodoxy. It's perfectly possible for an Awakened or Barzite to be making war preparations while insisting they don't want war and only want to be left independent to go their own way. "I don't want to fight a war with the Shapers, but I also don't want to be completely defenseless when the Shapers inevitably come to murder me." (The Takers, of course, do desire to wage offensive war against the Shapers, so that's a little different.)

 

 

Not met the Takers, but I have met Drakons in GF3-5 so I know what you mean.

Now from what I've seen: (Have practically not made any faction quests except give Carnelian spores I stole from the Bazrites)

Awakened "prepare" for war by trusting not-so-slowly going insane Tuldaric and a school of magic. Beyond that, it's crossing their fingers and hoping that this time, the Shapers won't kill them all. They are horribly unprepared for what's coming. One Shaper can't take them. 8 Shapers can simply by spam-Shaping battle creations from their corner in greater rate than they can. And 8 Shapers, with a few guards in a fort, are safe enough from everything the Awakened can throw at them except treachery.

And for some reason I didn't see vats of poison or Tuldaforged assassin serviles. The servile infiltrators of the Awakened just try to find disloyal serviles, not preparing to slit the throat of sleeping Shapers.

I applaud, I really do, that the Awakened are pacifists and if it comes to war they want to "play fair".

But ... SERIOUSLY?!  They would perhaps delay a real Shaper force for... 2 weeks?

 

Bazrites rebellious but not rebels:

I meant the real rebels. Those that I can see myself aligning with. Not the worse faction I've seen in Geneforge (including Taygen's faction) after the Monarch.  

 

Bazrites preparing for a  defensive war:

They claim they do, but it's more like "Of course, all these you see, the glorious Drakon army we assume people that used 3 canisters can control, the severely mistreated alphas and glaahks we assume will remain obedient to us once we stop mentally torturing them for a moment, is JUST for defense Shaper! Really!" *wink and smug smile*

"You just winked."

"Nah it was your imagination" *wink and smug smile*

I am sure the Awakened are right about the Bazrites. They are preparing for an offensive war with the Shapers but they don't want to burn down the whole Empire like the Takers. But they know (and they are right) that they have to do more than sit in a valley and fend off attacks for ever. They know they have to march out and burn and loot and destroy to force Shapers to give them independence.

 

 

Now, I ASSUME that the rumors are right and Takers are making a huge creation army. I hope they're not too Ghaldring-y yet and they want to use that army to conquer the Shaper Empire, dismantle the magocracy and institute freedom for creations. Not just  dismantle Magocracy and institute magocracy 2, the reptilian version.

(No spoilers please; I have some way to go before I find the Takers; A lot of Barzites to talk to still. I was in a discussion with Bazrahl when I started drifting off from exhaustion and went to bed last time).

Edited by alhoon

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Triumph   
21 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I meant the real rebels. Those that I can see myself aligning with.

So the true definition of "rebel" is actually "those who share my views"? ;)

 

 

I will also just say that you may not have seen all there is to see of the Awakened's plans. They may still be naively idealistic, but they also may not be quite as out of touch as you think.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Triumph said:

So the true definition of "rebel" is actually "those who share my views"? ;)

 

 

I will also just say that you may not have seen all there is to see of the Awakened's plans. They may still be naively idealistic, but they also may not be quite as out of touch as you think.

 

Good. I want to align with them, but ... they seem at the time completely hopeless. I can attach myself to a poor-seaworthiness ship in a coming storm, but not an already sinking one.

If I may, I wonder how their views survived to reach Astoria, or if Astoria came to the conclusion without realizing she's an Awakened supporter.

 

What I meant to say is "The Rebels of GF4-5" (The GF3 ones are even more obnoxious than Drakons so I pretend they don't exist. I am looking at you Hoge and Litalia.)  

Edited by alhoon

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TheKian   

I will say that the only sect I have actually completed is the Awakened, but I can tell that it is definitely the 'best' end to the game. All I'm going to say...

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Interesting question about Astoria.  I don't think there's any indication that their views propagated successfully.  Even in G3 their disappearance is barely mentioned at all.  Although, if there is enough memory of the villages on Sucia to name towns after them in G5, presumably that includes memory of the Awakened as well.  (Not a spoiler, I think, since Pinner and company talk about it.)

 

10 minutes ago, TheKian said:

I will say that the only sect I have actually completed is the Awakened, but I can tell that it is definitely the 'best' end to the game. All I'm going to say...

 

 

I think I disagree.  The situation at the end is a little reminiscent of another ending from later in the series, actually.  (Not spoiling which.)  There is a more satisfying (and better-sounding) ending, though you may not be aware it's an option.

 

Come to think of it, though, the Awakened ending may be the single best piece of evidence to support one of those contentions Alhoon is always making ;)

 

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TheKian   
Just now, Cotra, when the walls fell said:

I think I disagree.  The situation at the end is a little reminiscent of another ending from later in the series, actually.  (Not spoiling which.)  There is a more satisfying (and better-sounding) ending, though you may not be aware it's an option.

 

Come to think of it, though, the Awakened ending may be the single best piece of evidence to support one of those contentions Alhoon is always making ;)

 

But the Tr- oh, wait, no spoilers.

 

Anyway, do you refer to the unaligned option? As I understand it, that's probably the canon result of G2, right?

 

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Triumph   

The Awakened, Barzite, and Taker endings to G2 are all fascinating pieces of alternative history to me, what-if scenarios for the Geneforge world. We can see presented with the godlike authority of the game's author (rather than mere speculation) how it could have been. In a way, I think these endings make the canon ending more meaningful, by showing that things didn't have to happen to way they did. The course of history was contingent on the choices made by the Shaper Apprentice, and had those choices been different, instead of the events we know as G3-5, history would have taken a different course.

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alhoon   


Met Barzahl at last. FIRST thing I noticed, is that Lying Zakary the Deceiver's misdirection, knows no bounds. He told me Barzahl was a Guardian. HE IS A SHAPER. Should have expected it. Frankly I can't think of any statement of importance that Zakary didn't lie at.


 The intro describes Barzahl as a cruel-to-creations arrongant-to-blindness Litalia. Can't say I am impressed. Litalia seemed more threatening just because she wasn't making such obvious tactically flawed decisions.
The man himself explains to me that they will do better than the Geneforge, that it was crude. Good going buddy, everyone should have goals.


I am now looking to find his library, steal his books and some research, find someone to train me to make Drayks and leave this god-forsaken place of madmen.
I will not sabotage their machinery that keeps the creations suffering at the time (and that's a hard decision) in order to be able to progress the story before I'm locked out of their ending so that I can retract less when I try to complete all of them.
Of course, on the way to the Radiant College I had to meet some serviles that have been treated badly and do errands for them...
And I have to find swamp spores so a Servile here can make a cure for the disease. I've seen one Swamp and I didn't like it. It was the roamer-fest.
Also I met a Taker Spy. Another one in a long list of Takers that tell me that I should go to their fortress and that I will be attacked viciously on the way. I start to see where Litalia got the attitude of "Look, I won't stop making monsters. But I will change you so you can defeat the monsters I send at you".


RADIANT COLLEGE:
Met a nice modified superhuman alchemist. She says Bazrites realized the canisters make people mad so they give a couple to you first, see if you adapt well and then they go to the good stuff. And they have a college to educate Shapers in more traditional ways. Not bad. It seems the Bazrites are heading towards the right direction in that regard, but slowly. Too slowly. Either I or Litalia and her buddies will wipe them out first.
Most probably I'll sabotage them and Litalia will take care of them.
I also found a Gazer with a familiar name: Siakus Eye. Was he in one of the other games or I remember wrong? He seems quite obedient here. No rogue tendecies.
Gazers seem easier to handle than Drayks; the Drayks of the Barzites need a very firm hand (and torture) to remain loyal. Speaking of Drayks, in the Radiant college I led the golems to the cryodrayks they positively wrecked them! The Drayks didn't even got a hit.

Shaper rushness and puresteel:
When Litalia and her superiors wiped out the Bazrites, they didn't take note on how they make puresteel. So we're left with just a handful of people in the Dera Reaches able to make puresteel.


WAY TO THE TAKERS:
Met a Barzite guarding a road. He tells me to explain myself. Having met with Barzahl, I tell him "Nevermind, I'll leave". He calls me a spy and kills me in one shot. :/
Hide from him in side passages. Deactivate some mines. Move forward. Something that I didn't even see hit me for 95 hp (I have ~55). :/

 

QUESTION:
Barzal's place is -crawling- with 650hp guards. Is it possible to wipe them out by late game? Zakary I will probably be able to take cause I will just camp in his essence pool and send waves of tier 3-4 creations to do the dirty work. Or perhaps I'll finally invest in blow-up roamers and have them soften up the enemy.

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Triumph   

It's possible to wipe out everyone everywhere, if you really want to.

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alhoon   

Good. I'll make Litalia's job easier then. After all, the Barzites are after the Awakened, so I assume the crazed witch will first wipe out my friends and then move to my enemies.

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Yeah, the Barzahl Guardian/Shaper thing I think is just a continuity error.  Though it might also be plausible that Barzahl was a Guardian, but gave up his warrior ways and focused on shaping as he augmented himself more and more.

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alhoon   

Yeah, GF2, which I like and enjoy very much, seems to suffer from several flaws that the other games don't have.

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TheKian   
16 hours ago, feat. Ganrick said:

Yeah, the Barzahl Guardian/Shaper thing I think is just a continuity error.  Though it might also be plausible that Barzahl was a Guardian, but gave up his warrior ways and focused on shaping as he augmented himself more and more.

I should like to point out that people in Rising call him 'Guardian Barzahl'. It strikes me that it is more likely that he was indeed a Guardian, but started pretending to be a Shaper because of his research.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

After a lot of frustration, reloads, inglorious deaths, rage-quits, dead-end run-arounds... I cannot breach the Bazrite Gate to go to the Takers. I have to find a different route, perhaps from the Awakened or something.

I can't even take my frustration to that rude Barzite guardian either, because he's too tough for me yet. He can kill me before I manage to run away and my creations have a low chance to hit him even if I do escape...

 

But as we say here, "laughs better, the one laughing in the end " you arrogant Bazrite piece of crap. Make all the snide comments you want about your gates and pylons and power. You don't know that

 

 

 


Litalia_is_coming.jpg

 

(Yes, I spent the time to edit the image to make that. That's how frustrated I am at that gate. I have not explored half the Awakened part, so I have no idea where the other route would be)

 

Edited by alhoon

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TheKian   
4 hours ago, alhoon said:

After a lot of frustration, reloads, inglorious deaths, rage-quits, dead-end run-arounds... I cannot breach the Bazrite Gate to go to the Takers. I have to find a different route, perhaps from the Awakened or something.

I can't even take my frustration to that rude Barzite guardian either, because he's too tough for me yet. He can kill me before I manage to run away and my creations have a low chance to hit him even if I do escape...

 

Stun lock 'em with blessed Glaahks. Killing the Guardian to the north of Rising (two zones up) is especially important, since he's the object of a quest that gets you a free Skein of Wisdom.
 

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

Blessed... Glaahks? I'm 19 level. I cannot afford Glaahks since I spent my money on Drayks (not worth the money, bad investment of 3000 coins. Damned Barzites)

My Vlish cannot hit him, except Horrorshiver (Terror Vlish).

Edited by alhoon

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Nim   

Do you have no leadership alhoon ? Iirc you only need around 6 or so to get Krogst to calm down. And same with the gate guards. And just fyi he is a special QA trainer, so maybe don't kill him yet ?

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alhoon   

I will kill him because I don't like him at all. Or, well, let Litalia kill him. Or actually kill him because I want the Wisdom charm. :p 

I can convince him to let me go. But if I attack him, he kills me.

 

The gate guards? I found some serviles in a gate house but they just didn't attack me, they didn't deactivate the Pylons or anything. Can I convince them to let me pass? I have leadership 10.

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Nim   

There is a box in the guard house with the serviles that deactivates the pylons.They should let you go to it if you tell them you forgot your pass, you def have enough leadership. After that you have to hit 2 more boxes iirc on each side of the gate and that opens it and clears the area so you can finally go north.

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alhoon   

...

 

I looked in that place for like 20 minutes. And I have missed a whole box? I've found the 2 boxes. Perhaps the 3rd too...

to be sincere, I opened the 2nd door and didn't step out to see if I'll get zapped to death. If I am that stupid I believe I'll stay in Drypeak to be purged by Litalia along with my awakened friends.

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Nim   

You could always join the Barzites, that would make sure the pylons definitely don't attack you :grin:

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

There's no way I could sleep at night if I did that. I am not even sure I would be able to join those abominations to see all endings (like I couldn't do Taygen in GF5). I didn't think there would be people treating creations worse than Taygen.

I was wrong.  

 

I always sympathized with the serviles. They are treated as living tools, killed for sport when needed or armed and thrown to ... a potential recruit (me) for the lulz and to test me.

I never liked the Drakons. Never. But to see a Drakon in the Radiant college immobile and held in firm control by constant suffering? That was somehow a slap to the face. And we're talking about Drakons here, that I dislike. The 4 drayks around Barzahl, that the text says they are in constant pain? That don't even look at me according to the text?

That's too far.

 

I really plan to go Litalia on them when I get the levels, and start spamming creations from a corner to kill everyone in their zones. Including the suffering Drakons and Drayks. They would prefer to die fighting I think, from a life like this. Especially the Drakon. Ghaldring would understand.

Edited by alhoon

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Nim   

Oh, you are going to like the Takers :grin:

 

Just checked, the box that switches of the pylons is between two blue serviles near their beds. After that it's two levers to the left and right of the gate.

 

pqvvTF8.jpg

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

Oh great... I missed it.

 

Thank you very much. Not sure I'm going to like the Takers. I was told they're creations only (or mostly; can't trust the gossip of other factions). That means... Drakons. Never ever liked Drakons. That I dislike them less than the Bazrites  doesn't mean I don't dislike them.

And I bet they will want to kill my Awakened friends, before the Litapocalypse.

 

As a note I already got the "coward's ending" by leaving after meeting with Barzahl, without trying to align with anyone. 12 Guardians go just to kill Zakary before they get their butt handed to them. I guess that's where Litalia and co come in. So it's definitely more than Litalia's insinuations in GF4-5 of "We went up there with a handful of Shapers, but awesome me did most of the work, really."

Edited by alhoon

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27 minutes ago, alhoon said:

As a note I already got the "coward's ending" by leaving after meeting with Barzahl, without trying to align with anyone. 12 Guardians go just to kill Zakary before they get their butt handed to them. I guess that's where Litalia and co come in. So it's definitely more than Litalia's insinuations in GF4-5 of "We went up there with a handful of Shapers, but awesome me did most of the work, really."

"I guess" != "definitely"

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

True, but 12 Guardians in the first wave... is definitely more than what Litalia said in GF5, and more than I guessed from her comments in GF4 since I wouldn't call a dozen Guardians "a handful". Even if it's just those 12 Guardians initially and the council sends Litalia alone afterwards (highly unlikely) it's still 12 Shapers + Litalia.

Edited by alhoon

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TheKian   

Leaving early != canon.

Keep in mind that Litalia is actually only there in the 2 possible canon endings. She's an apprentice at that time. She came with a Shaper handler.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, TheKian said:

Leaving early != canon.

Keep in mind that Litalia is actually only there in the 2 possible canon endings. She's an apprentice at that time. She came with a Shaper handler.

 

That's what she says in GF4, but not what she says in GF5...

Also, in GF4 she says she was told to kill disloyal serviles under a watcher. While probably she meant the Drypeaks, she may refer to the early days of the Shaper attack, or before it.

 

And regardless of her importance in the attack (which she probably inflated) ... I don't know anyone else to blame from the bunch that will kill my friends! So I'll bunch them up with Litalia since she was there burning serviles and making hordes. And I believe her when she says she led the final assault on the Drakons (because if she didn't, how could she have saved Ghaldring and the rest?)

 

But I figured leaving early was not canonical from the ending I read.

Edited by alhoon

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TheKian   
4 hours ago, alhoon said:

I don't know anyone else to blame from the bunch that will kill my friends!

Blame me, because I'm presently going omnicidal neutral. Once I'm ready, I'll kill everything I can find past the secret tunnel. ;)

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Triumph   

You keep going on about Litalia. Let's review the facts.


Litalia's "original" origin story, as told in G3, is that "I was sent to a remote outpost, where the Shapers were weak and confused, and they had let things go wrong," adding that the problem was "A lack of discipline. The environment was harsh, and the serviles had become disobedient. And then rebellious." No mention of drayks or drakons or canisters or Drypeak or being part of a larger force of Shapers sent to suppress an uprising. After the incident, she fled her Shaper handler and later encountered Ghaldring in the wilderness.

 

In G4, she spins a different tale. "I was a Shaper. But I was ... disillusioned. Then I met drayks and drakons, when I had been tasked to hunt them. I gave them the chance to speak with me. And I saw that the Shaper ways were not just." Later she adds "I was sent, with a Watcher, to deal with disloyal serviles. I did this by slaughtering them." Presumably, if this telling is true, then after being "disillusioned" by the first incident, she was assigned to hunt drakons and drayks and instead found and joined them. But that's rather different than saying she fled her Watcher and met Ghalding next.

 

Then, suddenly, in G5, she claims she wasn't an apprentice being tested before becoming a full Shaper. No, she was a promising, powerful Shaper given an important mission - a mission to Drypeak to purge the mountains of the works of a rogue Shaper. Then she led assault on the rebel base, and there in the underground lair, met Ghaldring. She helped him escape and joined his rebellion. Do you notice how different this tale is from the story told in G3 and G4? The first two stories are different, but with some significant overlap. Not until G5 does she start claiming she was a mighty Shaper given important missions who conquered a rebel fortress only to save Ghaldring.

 

Suppose I were doing historical research on a person (I mean, that's actually what I do in real life). And I found this hypothetical person had participated in a famous battle of some war, and left two accounts of his involvement. The first account was in a letter he wrote just a few years after the battle, and in it, he described his behavior as rather pathetic, melting down in combat and running for the rear. The second account comes from many years later, after he had become somewhat famous and the head of a large organization, and in it, he told a dramatically different version of the same battle. In this telling, he was a powerful and impressive warrior who played an important role in the outcome of the battle. Which of those two accounts would I believe? I'd say it's overwhelmingly more likely the first account is true and the second is false.

 

Can you see how Litalia's stories fit a similar mold? My inclination is to be highly suspicious that Litalia actually had anything to do with Drypeak. I find it highly plausible that as she positions herself as savior of the land, leading the world to accept Trakovite wisdom, she decided to adjust her origin story to make herself sound more glorious and important and thus more worth following. She'd rather present herself as a full Shaper who singlehandedly saved Ghaldring than a mere hopped up apprentice who suffered a meltdown after killing some serviles and was later found by Ghaldring.  Or perhaps she's delusional thanks to so much self shaping abd believes it all. Yes, MAYBE the G5 story is the true one. Maybe. But it's also eminently possible that she made that part up, appropriating details from other stories to make her own history more impressive or for some other reason, and was never part of the Shaper assault on Drypeak. Something to consider. :D

 

 

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It also shows that Litalia is an unreliable source -- her level of canister use makes this point as well -- as I think alhoon agreed earlier in the conversation.  I don't think it makes sense to assume that anything an unreliable source says is true unless there is outside evidence for it.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, feat. Ganrick said:

It also shows that Litalia is an unreliable source -- her level of canister use makes this point as well -- as I think alhoon agreed earlier in the conversation.  I don't think it makes sense to assume that anything an unreliable source says is true unless there is outside evidence for it.

 

Pretty much that, as I've learned to my horror from dealing with Lying Zakary the Deceiver... As we discussed before we play in GF5 a person that lost his memory from canisters. A few spotchy spots on Litalia's memory that she chooses to fill with glory are expected. And of course there's the reason for her to lie as you describe.

 

As for Litalia in Drypeaks: The GF3 part you mentioned doesn't mention her melting down and running for the rear disillusioned, more like deserting for the Rebellion disillusioned. It is the GF4 version with less details. And I believe she gives less details because the Rebellion is starting and she's below the Drakons at that point, calling them "masters". She's also already mad. In the GF4 the way I interpret the story is that she became disillusioned on the Drypeaks and then met Ghaldring. She also mentions that killing serviles was a task she did but she "failed" the loyalty check. I.e. the GF3 version is not much different from GF4. Her involvement is not stated to have ended with dealing a few disloyal serviles and then deserting.

Litalia however seems to have been talented even before the Canisters. Jared also uses tons of canisters and he never reaches the level of importance, or power, that Litalia has.

 

The second account, which I agree seems less reliable, is also Litalia out of the Rebellion. She can be more open about hitting the Rebellion hard because she's not as emotionally invested in it any more.

So I believe the truth is somewhere between the GF3/4 tale (which I find similar enough) and GF5 tale. Perhaps more towards the GF3/4 tale than GF5 tale. While I don't remember specifics, Litalia is not the only one mentioning she was in the Drypeaks; Ghaldring says that too I think. I have to go find him in GF4 and read his tale. It would explain partially his iron-clad loyalty to Litalia.

 

 

And the bottom line is this: I know that Litalia was not the deciding factor in the Shaper victory in Drypeaks. She was too young to be the Alwan of the place crushing the rebels or have any significant authority in an era where Shapers felt invincible.

However... Litalia is the only one I know and she had had her hand in several genocides. If Lord Rahul had told me he was the leading Shaper in the force fighting in the Drypeaks, I would have believed him and I would be blaming him now for killing my friends. Litalia has the name-recognition so to speak and gives me a target to blame (even unfairingly) for the fall of my friends.

So, I will still keep referring to the approaching purge as "Litapocalypse" and the Shaper expeditionary force as "Litalia et al.". I realize that's twisting the story and putting the blame on the one individual that had a small part of the blame and instead helped Ghaldring escape making the rebellion possible.

 

It feels nice on the tongue though. :)

And would positively infuriate the many other Shapers that took part in the battle and did the heavy-lifting to sideline them and remember only the apprentice that deserted.

 

 

I realize that for a person making a living on historical accuracy that's worse blasphemy than a Barzite saying power is overestimated. Please don't take this as a kind of disrespect for the work you do or an indication on my stance on real world historical persons. In life, I don't put the blame on one or two persons for anything.

I.e. I wouldn't blame the Roman empire's decline on 2-3 bad emperors or something "cause it was shorter than going through the long list of reasons and persons and I never liked Nero."

 

TL;DR:

I agree 2/3 with you Triumph. But it still is convenient and feels nice for me to put it all on Litalia for reasons. I do this for the game not in real life.

Edited by alhoon

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Nim said:

Oh, you are going to like the Takers :grin:

 

Just checked, the box that switches of the pylons is between two blue serviles near their beds. After that it's two levers to the left and right of the gate.

 

pqvvTF8.jpg

 

 

OK found it.

But thankfully I am not (that) stupid. You see, I use the graphics enhancement mod, so here's what I was seeing:

 

 

 


adawdas.png
 

 

 

As you can see, the box was barely visible and I assumed the guards were there are ... guards. I expected to find one box near the gate.

 

EDIT: Now a question please.

Is there an "unaligned" faction?

I met some Shapers hiding in a fort while looking for a way past the gate and their Shaper boss told me that being unaligned is wise. I also already "finished" (year right) the game with an "unaligned" sounding ending.

Or the Shaper boss meant "remaining unaligned won't get you many enemies and you don't want to make friends with these things either, even Zakary is unworthy, the traitor", thus giving me a wink and a nod kind of "there's an unaligned ending"? 

 

EDIT2: Takerland

Platform for Shaping. Took out 4 Alphas and a couple of Glaaks (they were spawned 1-2 at a time) without a single hit. Confident like an Ashen island Shaper opened a door and chuckled at the message "the smell of death and rotting flesh, something bad is there". What can your creations do, pfft, kind of thing.

Turn a corner. Rot.

One hit and I'm dead.

Lesson: Vlish can't save you if you're at the head of the line...

Lesson 2: Remember my roots. Underestimating creation will be the undoing of many Shapers. You would think playing so many GF games I would have learned that...

 

EDIT3: I read a sign; North-east to Zahk-Uss. I take the North-east exit. I end up in a cave of "misfits" (That's the actual name of the zone!) that I find people kicked out by the takers of all people. They seem to have been more picky in GF2 than in GF5... I am told there's a Gazer that if he hears the alarm would make everyone attack me, even the nice cultist servile that is polite and smiling and tells me he will have to attack me. Apparently the Gazer will attack me too if he hears the alarm so I'm not clear that the not-brightest servile is right that the Gazer would make them attack me and not the alarm would make the Gazer make them attack me.

 

So of course, I have to explore that nice and interesting cover next time I play instead of going to meet the Drakons with their beautiful logo (Drayk head and under it two swords).

Edited by alhoon

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Nim   

God that looks hideous :/

 

And yes you can go unaligned, as long as you are not in any faction when you leave the valley and have taken care of the threats the loyalist encampment shapers told you of you'll get the unaligned ending.

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Owenmoz   

Yoo Alhoon long time, im glad you finally finished g3. There is an unaligned option but the ending varies according to how much/little you sabotaged the other factions. idk if it qualifies as a spoiler. but if you see your quest list the main quest should tell you exactly what you need as minimum requirement to end the game. 

that being said i wouldnt say Litalia is bad because canister use but geneforge has a bad track of retconing stuff so the whole lore is a mess and in the end it varies with what you personally take as canon. cause i.e. g5 rewrites some pieces of history but i think many here don't take g5 as the correct version so... Also you take zachary too much to heart, he is so forgettable idk what possibly got you to feel so strongly about him.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Owenmoz said:

Yoo Alhoon long time, im glad you finally finished g3.

 

I didn't...

I'm half-way through since I have put it on pause to finish my mod. I liked GF3 and I will finish it, but the Rebels, my beloved rebellion, doesn't make much of a convincing argument to join after Litalia attacked my character's school, killed the people my character has spent most of his time the past 4 years with and then tried to bully him \ tempt with power.

I am not yet in GF3 at the point where defeat seems inevitable and canisters seem so sweet that I would join; what I saw from Canisters so far is a traitor melting and a psycho-path mass murderer with glowing eyes.

I have left the game as I meet my first drakon. And I don't like drakons.

 

In short... the game paints the rebellion in bad light and I find my Role playing dedication (Shaper student, pro-serviles but not mass murderer that saw his whole teen-age society collapse and die) at odds with my convictions as a person and player (Shapers need to go and they need to pay for their crimes).

You see... Shapers need to pay for their crimes, but killing teenagers is wrong and so far the carrot\stick is not enough to sent me towards the Rebellion. I've been meeting a lot of pompous butthole Shapers but still not enough to join a madwoman and reptilian monsters.

 



but geneforge has a bad track of retconing stuff so the whole lore is a mess and in the end it varies with what you personally take as canon.

That true, but in the case of Litalia we can "explain" what is indeed probably an overwrite of the character's history 5-6 years after the event by an author that felt this paragraph suited the narrative better than the older narratives.

I get the impression the author is not big on continuity.

 

Still, we could try and explain the change as Triumph said above (while as I said, I am pretty sure the author just went with the text that fit best not caring if it contradicted slightly some paragraph written years ago...)

Edited by alhoon

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14 minutes ago, Owenmoz said:

but the ending varies according to how much/little you sabotaged the other factions

This is not actually the case, unfortunately.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, feat. Ganrick said:

If you still haven't finished G3 either... then you don't even have all the info on Litalia!  Dude.

 

Never said I do. All the examples of Litapocalypse I mentioned are from GF4-5 and I never professed to be an expert on Litalia-lore nor, I think, based the "Litalia did it!" on deep knowledge but was sincere and open that I base it on "convenience".

 

And as I explained above, I am 90% positive that the contradictions in her story by the author are not intentional since he doesn't seem to be too much concerned with the minutae of continuity and if a line here contradicts a paragraph written 5 years ago.

Edited by alhoon

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Owenmoz   
1 minute ago, feat. Ganrick said:

This is not actually the case, unfortunately.

really?

i thought that if you just go home after finding out barzhal, shanti and zachary you get a relativelly shitty ending, if you ruin the plans of half a half decent ending and if you ruin the plans of all the best one? ik its not necessary to kill every living being but i do remember coming back as a  hero vs having the shaper council disapointted on you.

but i was thinking about starting over anyway so myb i can see for myself, eventually.

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Owenmoz   
9 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

I didn't...

I'm half-way through since I have put it on pause to finish my mod. I liked GF3 and I will finish it, but the Rebels, my beloved rebellion, doesn't make much of a convincing argument to join after Litalia attacked my character's school, killed the people my character has spent most of his time the past 4 years with and then tried to bully him \ tempt with power.

I am not yet in GF3 at the point where defeat seems inevitable and canisters seem so sweet that I would join; what I saw from Canisters so far is a traitor melting and a psycho-path mass murderer with glowing eyes.

I have left the game as I meet my first drakon. And I don't like drakons.

 

In short... the game paints the rebellion in bad light and I find my Role playing dedication (Shaper student, pro-serviles but not mass murderer that saw his whole teen-age society collapse and die) at odds with my convictions as a person and player (Shapers need to go and they need to pay for their crimes).

You see... Shapers need to pay for their crimes, but killing teenagers is wrong and so far the carrot\stick is not enough to sent me towards the Rebellion. I've been meeting a lot of pompous butthole Shapers but still not enough to join a madwoman and reptilian monsters.

 
Dude.. Did you seriously quit a game because your fave faction was ~Problematic TM~ in this one? The game doesnt paint the rebelion in a bad light. the game is simply from a shaper pov. same as g4 rebellion is from a rebel pov. g4 start also p much w a raid on the southforge citadel.  so its equality. in any case. finish the game, it has some necessary bits of story as well as one of the best characters in the series.

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Triumph   
31 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Never said I do. All the examples of Litapocalypse I mentioned are from GF4-5

 

5 hours ago, alhoon said:

While I don't remember specifics, Litalia is not the only one mentioning she was in the Drypeaks; Ghaldring says that too I think.

 

Specifics or it didn't happen. I can find nothing of Ghaldring ever describing his first encounter with Litalia, certainly nothing that would verify she ever came anywhere near Drypeak or saved him from a Shaper assault. You can disregard all evidence aside from Litalia's obviously super sketchy G5 claims, or you can recognize that you might be scapegoating Litalia and turning her almost into a propaganda symbol, an emblem of all that you see wrong with the Shapers, even though she doesn't deserve it. I don't quite understand your love-hate relationship with Litalia, but regardless, facts matter.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Owenmoz said:

the game is simply from a shaper pov. same as g4 rebellion is from a rebel pov.

If G3 was from the Shaper point of view, then it did an incredibly awful job of making the Shapers look like good guys. Meanwhile, the game you claim is from a rebel point of view actually did a far better job of humanizing the Shapers and making their cause seem sympathetic or valid. No, the truth is that G3 makes both sides look  vicious and cruel. The rebels come out slightly worse, yes, but not because the game skews to a pro-Shaper portrayal.

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33 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

I never professed to be an expert on Litalia-lore

 

And as I explained above, I am 90% positive that [conclusions about Litalia]

These two statements would seem to be conflicting.

 

You haven't seen all there is to see about her in-game.  You don't claim to be an expert.  Yet, you feel comfortable saying you are 90% positive in what you say about her despite having an elementary gap in knowledge?  (And this isn't a not-first-language thing.  90% is a number :) )

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Owenmoz   
3 minutes ago, Triumph said:

 

If G3 was from the Shaper point of view, then it did an incredibly awful job of making the Shapers look like good guys. Meanwhile, the game you claim is from a rebel point of view actually did a far better job of humanizing the Shapers and making their cause seem sympathetic or valid. No, the truth is that G3 makes both sides look  vicious and cruel. The rebels come out slightly worse, yes, but not because the game skews to a pro-Shaper portrayal.

ok tru, but in any case i dont think the game was biased against rebels.

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alhoon   
2 hours ago, Owenmoz said:

 
Dude.. Did you seriously quit a game because your fave faction was ~Problematic TM~ in this one? The game doesnt paint the rebelion in a bad light. the game is simply from a shaper pov. same as g4 rebellion is from a rebel pov. g4 start also p much w a raid on the southforge citadel.  so its equality. in any case. finish the game, it has some necessary bits of story as well as one of the best characters in the series.

Of course I will!

I did all (well most) endings in GF5 and the Shaper ending in GF4. I am a completionist.

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alhoon   
Posted (edited)

 

 

EDIT:

OH COME ON!

I lost a nice big reply. :(

In short:

 

A)The "90% confident" was about my assumption that the author is not concerned too much about minor contradictions on the story.

I wrote some nice explanation but it was big. Suffice to say that I am confident about that even if I haven't seen all content. GF2 even contradicts itself in some cases.

 

B )  I agreed with Triumph that I am scapegoating Litalia and mentioned I've admitted that in previous posts. (And mentioned I don't do that for real historical persons!)

 

 

8 hours ago, alhoon said:

TL;DR:

I agree 2/3 with you Triumph. But it still is convenient and feels nice for me to put it all on Litalia for reasons. I do this for the game not in real life.

 

 

I have agreed earlier with every person here that said "There's consistent evidence that Litalia was not an unstoppable force at that time but an apprentice\prospective. Do you really think Litalia would be leading an assault force that could take the force you have seen?"

and I said mostly "not really, no. I just say Litapocalypse for convenience".

 

I didn't agree that there's (to my limited knowledge) evidence to suggest that Litalia was not at the Drypeaks. There's perhaps not enough evidence that she was, but I didn't find so far any evidence she was not.

I also said that I consider GF4/5 more canonical than GF3 since they came later. So even if GF3 Litalia says indicating (not outright proving) that she was elsewhere during the Drypeak Purge, I would consider the GF4/5 to take precedence. Sure, if GF3 Litalia says something along the lines of "I wish I was at the Drypeaks while the Drakons were there, but alas I have not been there" then I would say GF5 Litalia lied.

 

Edited by alhoon

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Dude.  Now I call foul.

 

Alhoon, your "90% confident" line was NOT about anything about the author's intention.  You just edited your previous post to make it look like that!  Let the record show everything that came after "90% positive that" was completely different until after I wrote my post.  (I mean, there is no record, but everyone CAN see the record of you editing that post after I replied to it.)

 

I am not going to engage with someone who deliberately edits their comments after they have been replied to, then claims the people replying were wrong about what you said.

 

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