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Tawon Gods(minor lore spoilers)


Owenmoz

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Anyone else kinda disappointed they are just necromancy? I kinda liked the previous lore that said they drew strength and attained godhood through their worshipers and lost it through their loss as well. Idk seemed more romantic and heavy than necromancy. At this point anyone could become a god and facing them is much less awe inspiring.

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As-is I think the gods are too similar to crystal souls: spirits of the revered dead brought back into powerful temporal forms by the rituals of their followers to provide advice and guidance. The only real difference is that crystal souls don't need the intervention of their followers to create their physical form, but even then you only have hearsay that the gods' bodies are necromantic creations.

 

The conception of the gods' existence and power fluctuating with their followers' devotion and attention is more interesting, I think, and could provide an interesting angle on the clear Roman-esque deified emperor thing.

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Im not sure what made tawon gods more appealing than crystal souls. But you're right they are almost the same. Another difference is that crystal souls are "born" mad and then are helped by their peers to attain sanity. While gods are bound to eventually go mad.

And well if you go to the velusa library you actually learn how to do it.

 

Yes i agree that was what really drew me to them. It seems so much more interesting that way. Although that was also taken from me by hearsay only though it appears that like all magic it will fail over time and thats why they get less stable and weaker.

 

Such good lore thrown under the bus for the sake of sense. *Sigh*

Although if its all truly simply due to necromancy it makes no sense that the gods themselves don't really understand what they are and stuff like that.

 

On another point of speculation. Why didn't Nathalie make me into a god when i became keeper? They said they lacked knowledge for longevity. But this is very close to it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anyone else kinda disappointed they are just necromancy?

 

I've been thinking about this (I just killed Velusa last night) and I really like it the way it is.

 

It reminds me of a very human experience I (and maybe you) have had...if you read the scriptures of a religion you don't believe in, especially one with a warlike past, you'll find a lot of crudeness. If you talk to a learned believer about it, he'll tell you it's metaphorical, or loftier than it looks, or beyond your comprehension, or loaded with multiple layers of subtle meaning that repay further study. Encountering Velusa and his followers is kind of like that...the followers are gushing about his wisdom and benevolence, and I'm sure if Jeff cared to write so much dialogue, they could discourse at length about the amazing moral and practical lessons and fulfilling life experiences that they get from following Velusa. But that the bottom, underneath this intricate superstructure the enthusiastic believers have built, is something pretty crude -- a human autocrat who got jazzed up with necromancy, and extended past his "sell-by" date.

 

I especially liked it in context. (nb, I have not played the endgame yet so please don't tell me if it contradicts my speculations) The medal text for "humiliate the Tawon" (which I won) suggests that the god I kill has to be "not an old, feeble god" (implying that someone or something in the game is an old, feeble god). Also,

Velusa fights with "soul jars," an item associated with Redbeard in Avadon I (as I learned from reading the threads; I didn't fight him then). This in turn suggests to me that I have at last learned the real nature of Redbeard, why he lives so long and why he's so strong even though he gives signs of breaking apart. (He's already confirmed to me that he started out as a normal human, though he's very secretive about his birthplace and family.)

 

The idea of gods gaining power from their worshippers has been done many times elsewhere...Terry Pratchett's Small Gods comes especially to mind...so it doesn't trouble me that Jeff went a different direction this time. Also, this way the Tawon gods have no incentive to compete with each other for worshippers.

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Velusa fights with "soul jars," an item associated with Redbeard in Avadon I (as I learned from reading the threads; I didn't fight him then). This in turn suggests to me that I have at last learned the real nature of Redbeard, why he lives so long and why he's so strong even though he gives signs of breaking apart. (He's already confirmed to me that he started out as a normal human, though he's very secretive about his birthplace and family.)

 

Redbeard doesn't use soul jars if you fight him in 2, though. (Staying mum about fighting him in 3 cause maybe that's spoilers.) So, sadly, scotch that theory. The fighting Redbeard endings of 1/2 are obviously noncanon anyway.

 

You DO find the potion stuff Redbeard uses to keep alive in both 2 and 3 in his tower, but you never figure out what it is.

 

Also, Redbeard evidently simply doesn't remember his youth or young adulthood. He can't even remember whether he was involved in assassinating Keeper Telera.

 

The idea of gods gaining power from their worshippers has been done many times elsewhere...Terry Pratchett's Small Gods comes especially to mind...so it doesn't trouble me that Jeff went a different direction this time. Also, this way the Tawon gods have no incentive to compete with each other for worshippers.

 

The second Dirk Gently book does the same thing, with the added feature that gods are created by belief: none exist before humans invent them.

 

I think the necromancy thing is alright, and would be great... if it weren't so similar to the crystal souls. Maybe a better idea would've been to have the "gods" be essentially robots that just think they're dead sovereigns, rather than the sovereigns' actual ghosts imprisoned in a construct body. Oh well.

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I'm agnostic so i go through that loads of times. It doesn't even have to have a warlike past. Although to be fair, the fact that velusa is actually there(physically) draws a line with real life experience. Although true. If im to look at that completely objectively(and, please note im for religious tolerance and my intent in the following comment is not to offend or invalidate any) both are based on something made by humans. One is a super zombie the other is scriptures which divinely inspired or not, were written by humans.

 

That being said velusa is relatively wise and benevolent. Most tawon gods seem to be. At one point or another. But seem detached from humans. As if they actually believe they are gods.

 

In any case my major problem is; the achievement becomes kill a super zombie. Not kill a god. For one it makes my sense of achievement go away, the medal is meaningless. For another it is too crude. I think you yourself said once that fantasy doesn't necessarily need originality, and that clichés can work(with sources to back up) so the other way would be fine if well written.

 

Then also crystal souls rehash(i only liked the crystal souls cause of relative novelty and considerable action in the series you actually get to know some and lore on them is extensive. And they don't see themselves as gods) i don't think a tinkermage construct would be much better though. reeks too much of psycho pass. And its boring and ultimately offensive to man kind that they would be that much of a fool to worship a robot.

 

Besides my favourite games had gods in them and im ever so eager to fight them and ever so iffy about actually killing them(my view is if you managed to become a god you deserve to stay a god, and only you should decide your end. Unless you're an immediate threat to mankind). Cept for gwyndolin in dark souls annoying and undeserving of his godhood. Even if horray for representation. Extremely annoying. Anyway that means i have to go back to a2 and finish the job there. Fighting zombies is so much less exciting...

 

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JGG - Well, maybe soul jars are something you have to set up in your lair over time. In Av-1, people fight Redbeard in an audience chamber, I believe, and the soul jars appear in secret rooms he's set up for that purpose. In Av-2 people fight him in an outlying fort, and in Av-3, it's in a part of his tower he didn't have rigged. 'course Jeff doesn't tell, so we get to fill in the gaps the way we please, but this makes the most sense to me. It's totally in character for him to enforce the laws against necromancy while practicing the art himself, and I don't see any other magic in the game that explains him.

 

I don't believe Redbeard if he says he's forgotten his past...he told me straight how important it is to never let anyone know about your family or background; so if he claims a blackout on his personal background, maybe he's just practicing what he preaches.

 

 

Owen -- Well, then, don't think of the products of necromancy as only "zombies." In a prior generation "undead" meant Christopher Lee or Frank Langella with a noble title and lots of sex appeal...

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I don't believe Redbeard if he says he's forgotten his past...he told me straight how important it is to never let anyone know about your family or background; so if he claims a blackout on his personal background, maybe he's just practicing what he preaches.

 

He doesn't advocate covering up your background, just things about it that might provide leverage to enemies. He openly admits that, for example, he used to paint as a hobby; he just stonewalls on any possible family(s) he might have or have had. The two mysterious portals in his tower certainly imply that he's hiding something though. I don't quite recall but he might mention which Pact state he's from in one of the games... IIRC Callan is from the Wyldrylm and Miranda is Kellem.

 

(Incidentally, Miranda's shade lets slip that she has at least one child, who Redbeard never knew about. Sounds like fertile ground for fan theories to me.)

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If a mortal can kill a god, then it is not much of a god. I just don't see knocking off Zeus or Odin as much of a possibility. As I recall, they were only ever threatened by beings of their ilk (titans or giants). To me, the achievement is that I am smacking down the Tawon by showing that their "gods" are not really gods. As near as I can tell, while Tawons gods are created through Necromancy, they are in fact sustained by the worship of their followers. There are examples in both Avadon 2 and Avadon 3 of their gods weakening when mortals forget about them.

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If a mortal can kill a god, then it is not much of a god.

 

 

In the Iliad, a mortal (Achilles) was able to wound at least one goddess (Aphrodite, who unwisely showed up on the battlefield...though, mind you, she kind of owed the Trojans given her role in starting the trouble). I think Ares also got hurt by mortals somehow...and got a chewing out by Zeus for it...but I forget the details. Mind you, I think being "not much of a god" is kind of the point...these "gods" manage to achieve worship and adulation, but at root they are something much smaller and cruder than their starry-eyed followers see them as.

 

 

(In a way it's also like "The Master" from the first Fallout game. Up above there's a Cathedral full of healing and messages of comfort and joy...but below at the root is just a weird monster that wants to extend its dominions. Scarier, but also smaller, than what the cult would have it seem.)

 

 

As near as I can tell, while Tawons gods are created through Necromancy, they are in fact sustained by the worship of their followers. There are examples in both Avadon 2 and Avadon 3 of their gods weakening when mortals forget about them.

 

 

That's one possibility; though also it seems that the older gods (like the goddess you meet in Av-3) simply get weaker as they get older, and no one can do anything about it. So maybe "getting older" and "being forgotten in favor of someone newer" are just things that happen at the same time, but the former causes the weakness while the latter comes along for the ride. Not the only interpretation, but a good one, I think.

 

 

Another possibility is that these necromantic "gods" need some kind of expensive physical sustenance they can't make all alone...like that "juice" up in Redbeard's chambers...and when they're forgotten, they don't get so much of it.

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Theoretically Gods are traditionally named gods first in creation, second in imortality(although that should have another name, gods can die there are some examples, they just are invulnerable to time) and third for power. In that aspect i suppose redbeard is more of a god than velusa. But usually in fantasy lore even if killed; a creator still maintains status of a diety. Also the main antagonists of many fantasy books are in a way gods. I.e. Melkor, Shaitan, Daedric Princes(although they can't die but lorkhan did die), nouda and ramuthra, etc...

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