playing geneforge 4. it's crazy how my opinion of shaper changed over 4 games

[Blxz]

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion

No, you're just telling me I have no right to debate in these threads and that I need to stop because I have no clue what I'm talking about.

 

*Sigh* I guess you're right, though. I'll try to remember not to participate in these threads anymore. I'll probably forget, though. You'll have to remind me if I forget.

 

No need to be passive aggressive about it.

 

To be fair, debating in absolutes, which is what you have been doing, really isn't the best way of approaching a topic when you apparently don't know about the most recent third of the source material.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with your assessment but then again I have yet to finish G5 either. I think it would be a stronger argument if you could actually refer and refute the things that other people are quoting with concrete evidence.

[Hyena of Ice]

Do you have any idea how much copying and pasting that would involve? I'm not even sure that quoting that much game script would be within the TOS...

[Slawbug]

We all have access to the games. In a lot of cases, people can refer to things without quoting them, and everyone else will either recall the same thing, or check it out and refresh their memory if they don't.

 

Look. If I read FOTR and TTT but not ROTK, I would absolutely still have opinions about LOTR, and they would be valid and interesting and worth sharing with others. However, if I got into a debate about, say, Frodo's character, where there are pretty significant developments in the final volume, it would be a little silly for me to be absolutely sure about my position and to, as Blxz put it, debate in absolutes. That's all I'm saying.

[alhoon]

I was totally in support of the rebels even in GF4's ending. Yes, they fight dirty and yes the Unbound would kill much of everything. But the Unbound don't kill everything and certain other weapons made in GF5... are not released by the Drakons. Since that's a spoiler I won't share more.

OK, humans could return to being 2nd class citizens in a magocracy (and I would ask people to see how they treat the human soldiers; barely less expendable than creations).

But what is the alternative for Drakons, Drayks and Eyebeasts? Just say "OK, we lose" and commit mass suicide?

What is the alternative for serviles? Servitude without any rights, self-determination and not even in control of their progeny?

I would also say that from fighting Unbound in GF4, they didn't seem unstoppable, just very hard.

 

That's not an alternative. To fight back the rest of the continent, the Drayks had to work with the Drakons. And when it comes to the push? Drayk-wise, if one side is to be obliterated it better be the other side than their side.

And while the Drakons are... kinda open about their plans to become the new shapers it causes the Cryodrayks to rebel against the Drakons in GF4.

 

I would also respectfully disagree with a certain poster about Greta's character and most importantly: That the GF4 rebellion is Drakons and friends. The human\servile side has a Geneforge too. They human\servile side loses to Alwan, they're not the lesser side.

And only the psycho Litalia is happy about the Unbound in GF4 (yes Blxz she totally is). Greta gets behind the plan out of pure desperation as the rebellion is about to be crashed, serviles made dumber and restrictions more severe. If you don't release the Unbound that's exactly what happens.

The only one faction that gives a more or less respectable ending (far from good, but not catastrophically bad) is the Trakovite ending with the single bunch of unbound that crashes the Shaper army and then the sane part of the rebellion tells the Drakons that enough is enough.

 

About Greta from GF3 (I should totally get back to that game ) beginning at least: She's indecisive to join that "rebellion" because by the time the rebellion reaches her it's mainly a mad mass murderer that killed all of her aquintances and left a bunch of monsters in her wake to make life hard for everyone.

[Hyena of Ice]

About Greta from GF3 (I should totally get back to that game ) beginning at least: She's indecisive to join that "rebellion" because by the time the rebellion reaches her it's mainly a mad mass murderer that killed all of her aquintances and left a bunch of monsters in her wake to make life hard for everyone.

 

You're forgetting one of her first lines-- the first one on the Captured Bridge, where she says that it's best to avoid violence "unless they have to" (I'd say that rogue thahd on a bridge who could go even more rogue at any moment would be a "have to" scenario). She also gets quite upset when you absorb the rogue artilia in Ft. Kentia that will soon pose a danger to the townspeople.

Even in the Beastmaster's Woods she says that she doesn't want to resort to violence in order to overthrow the Shapers. Like I said, a bleeding heart (though she begins to change her tune in Stonespire when you are asked to assassinate Khyryk)

 

Also, I just want to clarify-- maybe I haven't articulated myself well, but unless otherwise specified (such as when I bring up G3), I am only referring to G4 and how the characters are in that game, not how they are in G4.

 

BTW, something else I wanted to mention about G4 Greta (kinda misc. trivia) Unless I am remembering incorrectly, I'm pretty sure she's on drugs. Unless I am remembering incorrectly (very possible) she has a pipe in her desk at the Southforge Citadel. She also has one in the box at her cubicle at Quessa-Uss (again, please correct me if I'm wrong about the Southforge Citadel) I assume it's some sort of painkiller for chronic pain.

[idonotexist42]

It's difficult to successfully argue a point if you're missing some of the background information that the other side is basing their opinion on. It'd be like if I tried to argue with someone who'd seen the whole star wars trilogy about whether vader could be redeemed or not but I hadn't seen episode VI. They KNOW Vader gets redeemed because it's cannon, I would only be speculating. You won't lose anything by playing G5. It's a great game, well worth the money. Plus I think I got the whole Geneforge saga off GOG for like $10 last year (I owned one and two back when they first came out but not the rest of the series)

 

I'm replaying G5 now, and while my conscience is telling me to side with Astoria, my emotions are telling me to side with Ghaldring so I can gut Rawal like the rat bastard he is. I'll feel bad killing Astoria, but I'll take great joy in crushing Alwan and Taygen underfoot as well. Not quite as much as I'll enjoy killing Rawal, but I'll certainly take pleasure in it. The shapers in G4 were much friendlier trying to recruit you. In G5 they're so goddamn arrogant and I'd be pissed at them for their disrespect even without having binged on every single canister I could find. The shapers just piss me off even though ideologically I sort of side with them and Astoria being the closest thing to my old buddies the Awakened since G2.

 

In a way it reminds me of the time I played the Barzites in G2. Every other faction treats you like their errand boy, Barzal treats you as his right hand man and you actually get respect. They're dicks to the serviles but unlike the shapers who are also dicks to me, the Barzites stroke my ego like a particularly enthusiastic hand job. And in their ending you take over the world and essentially become a god. Don't have the moral high ground but it's indulgent and satisfying in its own way.

[alhoon]

Unless I am remembering incorrectly, I'm pretty sure she's on drugs.

She's on canisters although she doesn't go too far.

[idonotexist42]

We know in G5 Alwan has a drinking problem, to deal with the pain of his injuries. We don't really know what sort of intoxicants they have besides alcohol in the Geneforge world, based on the way the pipes look I would assume they've got something akin to tobacco. Opium and hash pipes look quite different, and we don't know if they have any equivalent psychoactive plants to opium and pot, it's never mentioned. The canisters seem to make you pretty cracked out if you take too many but I don't think they qualify as a drug in the conventional sense. While she may well have a pipe and smoke, there's never any mention that she has chronic pain and she doesn't seem to act as if she does. If she were on anything along the lines of Opium, I think it'd be more obvious. Also if they have something like Opium, I would think Alwan would use that over alcohol which is pretty inferior as a painkiller. Again my guess is that it's like tobacco which is calming under stress but viewed as a normal pastime, as well as not being too heavily intoxicating (generally). It's not like Avernum which had that herb, Skrima or something, can't remember what it was called.

[alhoon]

idon... not everyone in this discussion has finished GF5. One is playing it now and another hasn't touch it.

[Hyena of Ice]

We don't really know what sort of intoxicants they have besides alcohol in the Geneforge world, based on the way the pipes look I would assume they've got something akin to tobacco.

 

We can assume that they've got some illegal herb based on the dried herbs in the locker at the Customs Office in Ft. Wilton in G3. Or at least it's implied, unless that is just a lost-and-found locker full of the pocket contents of those arrested at the customs office. (It's kinda like how it's implied but not stated that the bodies of the teachers were gnawed upon by giant rats, due to the fact that you encounter a bunch of rats in the room with the bodies.)

 

there's never any mention that she has chronic pain and she doesn't seem to act as if she does

 

It says at the beginning of G4 that she has many scars and walks with a limp. That generally entails chronic pain.

 

If she were on anything along the lines of Opium, I think it'd be more obvious

 

She received Shaper training-- albeit incomplete (I think she was a third-year apprentice *It is implied that Alwan is one year ahead of you, AND assuming that an apprentice goes through 4 years of training prior to the 5 years of of menial field work mentioned in G1 and G2* like the protagonist, but with far fewer hours due to being dismissed from so many classes for disruption). Remember that you encounter Miranda when she's piss drunk and it doesn't affect her behavior at all.

 

Also if they have something like Opium, I would think Alwan would use that over alcohol which is pretty inferior as a painkiller.

 

You do have a point there, unless the "something like opium" is an illegal drug.

 

Opium and hash pipes look quite different

 

The pipe sprite is a render of a 3D Poser model. The digital artist goes with what they have-- DAZ does not nor has it ever sold models of illegal drug periphenalia, so arguing about the appearance doesn't work, esp. with the graphical discrepancies between rendered/line art scenes and game sprites (e.g. the diminutive size of Fyoras compared to in-game sprites, Greta in the opening menu having a ponytail and normal-colored skin as opposed to her radioactive-green skin in the game. Alwan's G5 scene render and in-game sprite is probably the most radical example, however-- and the reason for the difference is because his sprite is Michael 2 with the Outlander outfit and no hair *and much darker skin-- and glowing green eyes*, whereas the 3D scene renders of him are of Michael 3 low res with the M3 version of the Knight Errant armor, I *think* the M3 Bodysuit, and I don't know what hair that is *looks like Alexios hair, but that doesn't have a Michael 3 version listed*)

Or how Guardians look like the G1/2 Guardian in G4/5 sketched/rendered scenes, despite the use of the G3 sprite, which I think is supposed to represent apprentice guardians (Looking at the sketches from G1 to G4, there is definitely a noticeable difference in the uniforms of apprentices vs. full shapers, and the average full Shaper vs. Shaper council members/rulers/elites *well, at least regarding Guardians and Agents-- The only evidence I have that shaper apprentices have different uniforms is Litalia's statement in G3 about getting the "robes" upon full initiation*

[alhoon]

About Miranda, I think aside of being hinted to be Alwan's girlfriend, she also hits on you while plastered. I may remember it wrong, but she was always kinda flirting with you and the way she asks you to join her drinking, alone, in a room with beds...

[Hyena of Ice]

She wasn't alone in that room though. Shotwell and that servile scribe were in the quarters with her.

[idonotexist42]

Ah, I didn't know that's where the artwork came from, I just assumed they were hand done individually, at least for items. The sprites you can tell are 3d renders but the flat pictures for items I didn't suspect.

 

I must have missed the lines about her injuries, I'll take your word for it.

 

I had always assumed that the changes in sprites were just changes in art style on Jeff's part, deciding the more closely fitted jacket type robe was better than the flowing open one of G1-2 (which I sorta miss) and that the newer guardian sprite was a supposed graphical upgrade from the original more simplistic one that was eventually phased out totally. We do seem to see an assortment of different robes in the artwork beyond the sprites and I'll take a look at those again to see if I can find any pattern to it other than just personal variation. Barzal, a guardian, used the shaper sprite which I didn't find too odd since he presumably just put the robe on over his armor, but it made me wonder if full shapers of any class wore the robes or if he just felt like it and broke from tradition.

 

I'm not all that fond of the newer guardian model, the pecs look like "moobs" and I think the round open faced helmet is less impressive than the crusader type pot helmet of the old one. Would have rather seen a larger more detailed rendition of the old look but hey, I'm not the one who made the games and the games are awesome overall so it's a moot point.

[Blxz]

The G1/2 shaper robes were awesome. I liked the simplicity. The later ones are ugly, but not nearly as ugly as the lifecrafter robes.

[idonotexist42]

I'm ok with the new shaper robes, they're not better or worse than the originals imo, just different. I agree with you that the lifecrafter robes are god awful and that's why I've never played one. such an ugly sprite.

[Owenmoz]

Miranda was by far my favorite character in all the games. So down tp earth. While she didnt treat you like an equal in the begining man did she not have the self righteous atitude about her. And later on she has even more chill. If there was one thing that pulled me to side with the shapers was miranda. And killing her as a rebel sided player was more hard than killing alwan(although noteworthy very hard to do too)

 

Talking about sprites has anyone pulled out the green one? I usually do default and/or blue. On shaper robes i think at one point it is said that they are given to you once you become a full shaper. A mark of honor more than anything else. I'd understand the uncerimonial simple one from the first two. But i also understand the embroided type fancy one from the last three. I had to agree with idontexist over the new guardians seeming slightly obese and less imposing than the first ones. But the first were just plain. And showed little to no distinction to the rest of the military units.

[idonotexist42]

I usually go for the pink/purple one, just because it stands out most from the other in-game NPC sprites. I also modded my scripts so that the shapers of different factions had different colored robes, to differentiate them from the blue of the loyalists. This was most important in G2, and then for the rest of them it was pretty much just Litalia.

[Blxz]

Bright green is normally my go to colour.

[Hyena of Ice]

Miranda was by far my favorite character in all the games. So down tp earth.

I dislike her greatly. She's a huge [censored]. You and Alwan are the only people that she even treats like human beings. Even her fellow shapers are just pawns to her (she scolds you for wasting your time to save those stranded Shapers in the swamps) Why would Jeff name such a vile character after his daughter?

 

she not have the self righteous atitude about her

Are you kidding me? She's worse than most shapers. Anyone who isn't either you or a superior is just trash. What does Alwan see in this woman? How can he even stand to hear anything that comes out of her mouth? She doesn't bat an eyelash even if a fellow Shaper dies, if they are of lower rank than her! Hell, she even looks down upon Alwan, in secret, and even says so behind his back! (the "typical Guardian" comment-- as if SHE has somehow seen more of the world than he has, give me a break. Disgusting woman, no redeemable qualities IMO.)

[Slawbug]

Friendly mod post here. Hyena, please remember that we are a "family friendly" environment -- and moreover, a "friendly" environment -- and don't use language like that here. Saying "_-word" doesn't make it better when everyone knows what you mean. In this case, put alongside the rest of your post, it sort of builds an impression of misogyny, which I'm guessing was not your intention. Thanks.

[Hyena of Ice]

Dammit. See, I knew I'd end up doing something like this! Now I'm already warned, and next time I slip up, I'm banned, right?

Actually, it's probably best that you do ban me now, since I'll just slip up again in the future, and we can see how I only debase threads rather than add anything positive to them...

[Nim]

Wait, calling a fictional person a [censored] is now misogyny ? Wtf

 

Edit: Nice, didn't even know there was auto-censoring here.

[Owenmoz]

Calling anyone anything isn't mysoginy. Mysoginy is thinking for example that miranda just for being a woman should have less rights and oportunities than her peers. Calling her disgusting and other things is a matter of opinion. Wrong as it might be of course calling names is being over agressive about it. But nah. You're a nobody even in the rebel army if she treats you well she's cool. Being pragmatic however is something people with decision power should be. Plus it was war time. People will die. Crying over it wont solve anything. Idk whatever flaws she had were justifiable and her qualities were awesome. But thats *maybe* cause i associate her with some real life person. Anyway i think slartibus was tryna say you can express your dislike over her with other words. Don't feel too ostracised dude. I don't think there is an ongoing meeting on your future here.

[alhoon]

Anyone who isn't either you or a superior is just trash. What does Alwan see in this woman? How can he even stand to hear anything that comes out of her mouth? She doesn't bat an eyelash even if a fellow Shaper dies, if they are of lower rank than her!

eh?

She's angry with the Shapers for being evil, genocidical and complacent to the point that the empire breaks up but does her job. In GF5, she would be probably siding with Astoria.

Alwan listens to her cause he agrees with her to a degree about how naive and complacent the Shapers have been and of course because she has a very good success record as an agent.

 

Miranda doesn't treat other shapers like trash, except if they're trash (the vast majority). She's one of the very few shapers in GF4 that accepts you even if you're a rebel and Geneforged. She doesn't see you as a creation and she doesn't underestimate Drakons and Drayks because they're creations. And of course, she's angry with the Shapers that keep their arrogance in the face of defeat! That arrogance has cost the Shapers a lot and it's the reason they go through a 10 year-civil war.

The comment about Alwan isn't an insult, lack of loyalty or backstabbing. It's just a friend\significant-other\lower-rank criticizing her friend\significant-other\superior.

[Owenmoz]

 

eh?

She's angry with the Shapers for being evil, genocidical and complacent to the point that the empire breaks up but does her job. In GF5, she would be probably siding with Astoria.

Alwan listens to her cause he agrees with her to a degree about how naive and complacent the Shapers have been and of course because she has a very good success record as an agent.

 

Miranda doesn't treat other shapers like trash, except if they're trash (the vast majority). She's one of the very few shapers in GF4 that accepts you even if you're a rebel and Geneforged. She doesn't see you as a creation and she doesn't underestimate Drakons and Drayks because they're creations. And of course, she's angry with the Shapers that keep their arrogance in the face of defeat! That arrogance has cost the Shapers a lot and it's the reason they go through a 10 year-civil war.

The comment about Alwan isn't an insult, lack of loyalty or backstabbing. It's just a friend\significant-other\lower-rank criticizing her friend\significant-other\superior.

 

Thank you!