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Owenmoz

I know its not happening but heres geneforge 6 for me.

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Owenmoz   

I would say more lore, like irrelevant to the gameplay and such but would make the world feel more real(specially comical lore, love those. Might be in the description of objects, like on avernum).

 

A good sense of mystery would be good, as in not exactly knowing what the main plot is about up to mid-game and so, but you still have freedom.

 

I think companions, even one and even if not playable are a good thing, they should also be somewhat important to the plot. (Sort of like shanti but more relevant)

 

While not exactly factions as that would kill the mystery on the plotline, it would be great to have various different endings as costume for spiderweb games.

 

I think graphics are not a must. Geneforge 3 didnt have atrociosly old graphics, nor too realistic and it was pretty good.

 

I think however think that deserts should deffinitelly not be the last/hardest area to explore, im not sure why, actually i am, deserts are frustrating to look at. Better in the first/easiest part.

 

New spells would be good but I couldnt think of any. So maybe a complete change of creation and spell engines so veteran players have to figure out how to go about stuff and experiment a bit.

 

I would also think that it has to be in a great time distance in relation to the first geneforge saga, because that story in itself is over and trying to pick up there would be a stretch.

 

Areas that are completelly dark would be cool(like the one on avernum 5), as in you can only see with a lamp, a spell or a piece of clothing that "shines".

 

One great idea would be either the shapers exploring the sholai lands(which while habitated are not populous) or the sholai exploring terrestria after unnamed disaster made it nearly( people are important) deserted(in my head im having overgrown thickets and forests with free roaming rouges which can and sort of should be the same rougues as found in the first saga).

 

Im thinking sholai because little to nothing is known about them so you have a lot of wiggle room to be creative.

 

I think money should be less of an issue than in the first games, and I think that some spells and techniques should be given in exchange of favours/quests but not exclusivly so.

 

Another important thing is that paths you take wont be one-sided or evil for evil's sake(except one only just for fun if you feel like leaving only ashes behind), there should be consequences to your actions no matter what the end, that way there is no good and bad "factions" and players can finish the game at random as in no one faction will be obviously more popular than the other (this whole part is hard to explain, english isnt my first language, but i'd like all paths to be morally ambiguous).

 

Finally I would think it cool to have an arcade adition to the game, its not necessary tho, but my idea was you get to manage a town, build up the town economically, physically and intelectually making guards and creations to fight off random hordes of monsters, no cheats should work in this mode. My reason for saying that would be a good idea is, firstly like chess helps the players develop strategy. Second, there will be,less mounting pressure for a sequel to the game because people can get to play it without repeating the story lines and thus it will take more time for them to get over it, thus giving you(the game creator) enough time to figure out the sequel. If no sequel is to ensue, I think most players will be a bit less frustrated than otherwise. Well this is all disorganised. Sorry about that.

 

I know its probably a dead topic but i'd like to know if you agree or have something to add.

Also, Mr Jeff V. Im not above shameless befging and emotional blackmail >.>

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Jerakeen   

If I may make a suggestion, Owenrus, paragraph breaks make walls of text easier to read. :)

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Actually, none of the endings to G5 were particularly conclusive, there were more loose ends than I would have liked and it didn't really wrap the story up with as much a sense of finality as I'm hoping. I'd like to see G6 pick up where G5 left off. I'd been thinking about this a lot lately. I have to run out the door at the moment but when I get back home I'll go into more detail about my ideas.

 

I do agree with the OP about the desert thing (or snow, for that matter)

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Owenmoz   

Actually, none of the endings to G5 were particularly conclusive, there were more loose ends than I would have liked and it didn't really wrap the story up with as much a sense of finality as I'm hoping. I'd like to see G6 pick up where G5 left off.

 

Even if it left loose ends i don't think it was enough to build a story. Even if it were. Terrestia is all ravaged by war and Jeff couldnt bring new areas and such. I mean lose ends and all specially if you fight for ghaldrin. But the story is tired-ish. Looking forward on reading your thoughts on this though.

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so my idea is roughly as follows: 5-15 years after GF5 there's an uneasy truce holding out between the Shapers and Rebels, the land is slowly healing from the wounds of the war. There remains, however, internal strife within the Rebels and Shapers between the moderate, centrist factions who engineered the truce and are getting very close to working out a final diplomatic 2-state solution that would truly end the war and the hardline radicals (Alwanites&Drakons). the PC is a part of an envoy sent to the summit where the final deal will be brokered (I had an idea that you could pick between starting as a shaper or rebel) On the way you're attacked, and when you finally arrive at the location for the summit, it gets bombed. No one is quite sure who is behind it at first, but the way it plays out is that the radicals on both sides, unwilling to settle for peace instead of absolute victory both stage a coup. There's now an open civil war between the human/servile rebels and Drakons, and between the progressive and hardline shapers. Since the moderates on both sides are working together this effectively becomes a 3 way war between the Alliance, the Alwanites, and the Drakons.

 

Early in the game before everything totally goes to hell the PC is sent to investigate who was behind the attacks and why. Both attacks will have been made to look as though it was the opposite side who was responsible but are actually false-flag attacks by the radicals in your own faction. when you figure this out, it's your first "faction choice" you can opt to go along with the Alwanites/Drakons and help their radical goals, or remain loyal to the moderates. Eventually you can join the Alwanites or Drakons if you want even if you started as a rebel or shaper (respectively), much like how you have the same freedom in the rest of the series when choosing sides.

 

I keep using the term "Alwanites" in this scenario, Alwan is dead but there's a faction within the shapers dedicated to his hardline views agitating for war instead of compromise and they launch a coup against the more moderate elements of the council.

 

I thought about maybe there being another unaligned faction out for its own gain fighting everyone, pillaging and profiting from the chaos, like neo-Barzites or something but I feel like that's probably too similar to the Shaper Monarch in G4.

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Owenmoz   

Ok i actually get you there but arent you tired of the open war scenario? Honestly the first 3 games where more about exploration and discovery and you have little idea what the hell is going on. I mean in open war first you work for someone. Then your decisions dont matter and stuff. I mean i really get like how the end didnt convey lasting stability or anything. But after playing all the option on g5 part of me was glad that part of the story was over. It really is much less personal than the rest.

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Also g5 kinda ends in absolute victory for every faction. There really is no ending that can lead to an uneasy truce as the enemy faction gets completely wiped out in a fairly scorched earth manner.

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Lilith   

Also g5 kinda ends in absolute victory for every faction. There really is no ending that can lead to an uneasy truce as the enemy faction gets completely wiped out in a fairly scorched earth manner.

 

Not really? Unless I'm misremembering badly, the Ghaldring, Astoria and Litalia endings all end in a truce where the shapers get one half of the continent and the rebels get the other.

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I could be wrong. I haven't played it in a few years do I don't really remember the ending texts so well. I do remember wiping out the council or the rebel leadership to end the game and there are endings with complete domination. (I think)

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Owenmoz   

Most games end up in truces sorta. Even for alawn but in that case he only leaves the ashen islands to the rebels. Since it would be hard to remove them from there. Tbh the rebelion started with a single drakon and a few serviles leaving any kind of truce wouldnt work out. Maybe imediatelly but on the long term I agree with idontexist. But thats not a part i'd like to revisit. Also the ghaldrin ending ends with the start of a new rebelion. The only definite would be taygen's ending as it would kill drakoms and serviles leaving only the human part of the rebelion. But im not sure if they were also obliterated. Long time ago.

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Spukrian   

I'd like to see a new Geneforge game set between Geneforge 2 and Geneforge 3. I feel that there is a "gap", both in the timeline and the story, between them. Since every game explores areas unseen in previous games, I imagine the game would be set somewhere between Okavano Barrier and Western Morass. You start as a Rebel, but as a twist, you can only choose between Servile, Shock Trooper and Sorceress.

 

The main task in the beginning of the game is to slowly infiltrate the small settlements in the area, while sabotaging Shaper operations and gathering resources for the rebellion. The first steps would be that the PC helps the Rebellion take control of the roads in and out of the swamps. The PC is then ordered to explore the area and search for a secret Shaper research facility, where classified secrets from Sucia and Drypeak are stored. Secrets that Ghaldring needs to build a new Geneforge.

 

There would be two main factions that the PC could join, Rebels and Shapers. Within both groups there will be moderates, which the PC could help (or not) and this would be reflected in the endings. There would also be the beginning of the Trakovite faction present in the swamps. This faction would be the antagonists of the game, having designed a weaponized disease that targets only those who could Shape.

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My other Idea is a prequel set on Suica island during the time back when the original geneforge was created. clearly something must have gone terribly wrong for them to shut it all down like that, I always wondered what exactly it was.

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Owenmoz   

Spukrian thats not a bad idea but it will go in conflict with the rest of the story since if you have rebels and work for them in the heart of shaper land sabotaging and recruiting would be slightly unrealistic since you know... the shapers would have found out. But the gap time between 2 and 3 is big and not really explained. Maybe if we were to play as litalia from drypeak to sorta rebel queen. But that would make one complicated map.

 

A prequel for geneforge one is actually good since like we know almost nothing about why sucia was bared. All we know is that it was. But then im not sure how it would work. As its a shaper research facility only factions wpuld be shapers. And who would you be? An aprentice? a servile? How would you get more powerfull? Would there be rank system like on avernum's army? Who would you fight? Etc..

 

Idk if im just stuborn but i still think the distant future would be easier to make and less constraining. But the prequel is a good idea and could actually work. So is the gap between 2 and 3 although im not seeing any major decisions being made by the protagonist without disrupting the canon.

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I'm guessing that in a prequel there'd be factions within the Shapers, probably the most basic division would be between the Traditionalists/Purists that balked at what was going on and wanted to shut it down and the researches who wanted to plow ahead, consequences be damned (For Science!!). Maybe a radical group similar to the Barzites that wants to use their newfound power to stage a coup.

 

Being an apprentice would probably be a good starting point, and some kind of rank system before the faction divides become more significant later in the game would probably work well. As for gaining power, the same way we always have: trainers, and of course, the CANISTERS. This was where they were invented after all, and I suspect that they were making a LOT of them. Shapers getting cracked out from canister abuse probably played a large role in prompting the shutdown.

 

this also occurs before Drayks were barred, and so having some of them around would be interesting. And I'd love to know more about the natives who left all those mysterious ruins everywhere.

 

the biggest issue, gameplay wise for a Suica Island Origin/Prequel would be the absence of the 4th&5th Tier creations we got so used to from G2 on. Maybe more upgraded variants than just the single one? deeper customization using the gene technology?

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Owenmoz   

I'm guessing that in a prequel there'd be factions within the Shapers, probably the most basic division would be between the Traditionalists/Purists that balked at what was going on and wanted to shut it down and the researches who wanted to plow ahead, consequences be damned (For Science!!). Maybe a radical group similar to the Barzites that wants to use their newfound power to stage a coup.

 

Ok with the rest i can agree also im sure since it was a research facily you could add 4th and 5th tier creations without having to worry too much about the implication. They would have to be different than the ones we know that way it could be agreed that the research was barred and creations unstable. Actually i tend to agree with everything. But only shaper factions would be too one sided. Im thinking maybe have a shaper like khyrik that wants to give autonomy to serviles. And one that is sorta like a mix between taygen and traskovites. This could actually work.

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Being an apprentice would probably be a good starting point, and some kind of rank system before the faction divides become more significant later in the game would probably work well. As for gaining power, the same way we always have: trainers, and of course, the CANISTERS. This was where they were invented after all, and I suspect that they were making a LOT of them. Shapers getting cracked out from canister abuse probably played a large role in prompting the shutdown.

 

Ah, yes, there is a ruined academy there, isn't there? Problem is that apprentices would not be allowed anywhere near the center of research on the e. half of the island. Not just because they're an apprentice, but also because of all the regulations and rules that the researchers were violating, such as keeping human cadavers at one of the research centers.

 

Another problem with a G1 prequel is that (according to Corata) nobody who was associated with the inner workings survived. The Shapers who managed to evacuate the island were nowhere near the Geneforge nor the main lab where that chemical leak was. So there is no possibility for a happy ending for a G1 prequel (even if some of the researchers DID make it off the island, Corata all but states that they would have died a short bit later from the poison)

 

 

 

One great idea would be either the shapers exploring the sholai lands(which while habitated are not populous)

 

Personally I'd much Prefer Jeff do a Sholai spinoff series that centers on naval exploration (there would be zones like geneforge, but also a naval overmap, with naval combat.

Skill system would be a cross between Geneforge and the Pre-remake avernums, save that there are extra misc skills-- e.g in addition to leadership mechanics and luck, you also have nature lore and naval lore. Combat skills would be simplified like Geneforge and magic would simply be split between magery, priestcraft, and spellcraft.) You wouldn't get to visit Terrestria but you would get to visit some of the Shaper-controlled islands for bonus areas. The first game would start bet. G1 and G2. Second would take place the same time as G3, and the third would take place after G5 (with the Trakovite ending likely being official-- it just seems like the most natural conclusion to the series) I picture the governments falling somewhere between Avadon and Avernum. The Sholai lands would be just one of several that you can visit.

 

I even dreamed up a scene in the second game where you encounter Alwan and Greta (staying at the inn in Dhonal w. Keep while the G3 Protagonist sneaks around to find a way into the keep. (Alwan, as Greta says, has the stealth of a boulder, while she looks rather shady, so they got left behind temporarily and are unhappy about it) Greta is fascinated with you because you are explorers from a foreign land, while Alwan is INCREDIBLY unfriendly and constantly scolds Greta for talking to you.

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Owenmoz   

 

 

 

One great idea would be either the shapers exploring the sholai lands(which while habitated are not populous)

 

Personally I'd much Prefer Jeff do a Sholai spinoff series that centers on naval exploration (there would be zones like geneforge, but also a naval overmap, with naval combat.

Skill system would be a cross between Geneforge and the Pre-remake avernums, save that there are extra misc skills-- e.g in addition to leadership mechanics and luck, you also have nature lore and naval lore. Combat skills would be simplified like Geneforge and magic would simply be split between magery, priestcraft, and spellcraft.) You wouldn't get to visit Terrestria but you would get to visit some of the Shaper-controlled islands for bonus areas. The first game would start bet. G1 and G2. Second would take place the same time as G3, and the third would take place after G5 (with the Trakovite ending likely being official-- it just seems like the most natural conclusion to the series) I picture the governments falling somewhere between Avadon and Avernum. The Sholai lands would be just one of several that you can visit.

 

 

You had me sold at naval battles! Do you get to upgrade ships? Hire new crews? Who will you fight? Will you secure aliances to fight a bigger enemy(as the sholai generally are very diplomatic and do their best not to antagonise the natives, and according to the real world experience thats unrealistic so maybe they need those aliances for something.) Do you get sholai classes? So many possibilities. This has to be one of the better ideas i've seen in this site.

 

But i wanted geneforge 6 because i like the ability to create stuff. But yes sholai spinoff is great! Only big problem i see is that the map would have to be huge! And if we go with creating aliances the endings cant be cannon. Also you should have to make hard choices. Such as to gain support of one you'd have to destroy another. Etc... Can we put this to vote and send it to jeff? If he is open to sugestions that is. Hyena of Ice i salute you!

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Do you get to upgrade ships?

Probably-- I didn't think about that aspect and was mostly thinking about that Naval Lore would cover most of the ship-related skills and combat (Nature Lore would still be used for certain hazards) Yeah, now that you mention it, you probably would need weapon and hull/sail/poopdeck/etc. upgrades.

 

Hire new crews?

I didn't think about that aspect, either, but you probably would have bet. 2-4 people accompanying you. With the first title, I pictured the opening starting with you being new mercenaries or explorers under a mentor, and your first high-seas quest is to pick up the remaining non-augmented Sholai from Sucia (I haven't played G5 yet so I don't know if the situation was explained there, but I would imagine that someone would have made it back to the Sholai lands in a smaller vessel that could not hold all of the survivors) On the way back to the Sholai lands, something completely unrelated happens that acts as a launching point for the main plot/quest for the game.

 

Who will you fight?

Who knows.

 

Will you secure aliances to fight a bigger enemy(as the sholai generally are very diplomatic and do their best not to antagonise the natives)

Of course.

 

Only big problem i see is that the map would have to be huge!

I envision the naval map as being an Avernum-style overworld map, and you can dock at certain places to access a Geneforge-style region map. But yes, that would be a truly massive world. The good news is that once the seas overland map is made, it would mean far less work for the other two titles. Obviously not all nations/islands would be accessible in every game (partly because it would be too much work to redesign region zones for each one for each title)

 

And if we go with creating aliances the endings cant be cannon.

Doubtful, as the trilogy would allow only very limited exploration of Shaper lands, and we don't hear much about the other kingdoms of the planet.

 

Also you should have to make hard choices. Such as to gain support of one you'd have to destroy another. Etc...

Well of course, since it would be a Geneforge spinoff. :)

 

Can we put this to vote and send it to jeff? If he is open to sugestions that is.

I was told by Lilith that he is not open to suggestions, otherwise I would have suggested it to him.

 

Oh, and in my idea of the convo with Greta and Alwan in the second title, one of the things you can say (to either of them) is "Sorry to interrupt your lovers' quarrel, but there is something that I need to know..." (the response is the same regardless of which one you are talking to-- both get pissed, Greta turns away angrily, and Alwan forces you out of their room and into the hall, with a forced end to the conversation. But you can just talk to them again without any consequence, and can even bring up that convo as many times as you want >:D Well, until you escape the W. Keep that is.

 

I would imagine that "I noticed that you wear different uniforms than other Shapers" would be one of the few questions that Alwan would actually answer.

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Owenmoz   

That way it gets the best from both avernum and geneforge(cept creations). I could actually see that. Its just plain awesome. Sorta like mass effect but better. Cept cannon endings :(.

 

Im having some trouble coming up with the storyline. But its too good.

And yah the world map avernum style would work. Specially since it would need little improvement over time.

 

And yes to that too. I always wish i got the chance to really express myself to those two in g3. Its like get a room already folks. It would bring on a huge wave of nostalgia though.

And yep you do grasp Alwan well xD

This has to happen.

Im thinking if jeff decides to retire the lot of us buy the rights and codes? Hypothetically that is. Let me make a post on that to see how people would feel about it.

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Im having some trouble coming up with the storyline. But its too good.

And yah the world map avernum style would work. Specially since it would need little improvement over time.

 

Same here, beyond VERY basic concepts-- mainly totalitarian dictatorships/military dictatorships and rogue militias/cults/what have you. The main or one of the main plot baddies could be a powerful group of pirate raiders, a budding but quickly expanding totalitarian military dictatorship bent on world domination, a rogue kingdom which has broken several treaties, or a secret order of mages or cultists who are unleashing treaty-violating creatures.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I can think of more in-depth about the plot-- or at least the setting.

 

Treaties between kingdoms and tribes would be a major element in the series-- something like a cross between The Pact in Avadon, the UN, and the EU, with lopsided power structure and oppression based on kingdom. There would be different types of treaties as well-- you would have some that are more international and UN-like, while certain groups of neighboring kingdoms, nationstates, or cities would have something more akin to The Pact or the EU.

The global treaties would include bans on say-- demon invocation and certain types of necromancy, while some of the continental-based treaties would include a ban on magically augmenting animals (including Shaping-- but the trilogy setting would include natural fantantastical and magical creatures, along with dangerous wild animals)

Certain religious orders and/or tribes would take a very puritarian view on this, to the point of killing any Shaper they meet on the spot (this would likely be more of a thing in the third title, as the Sholai at the W. Dhonal Keep in G3 tells us that there are few Shapers in the Sholai lands-- the Shaper/Rebel war OTOH, would result in more Terrestrians leaving for other continents-- though this would have to be done illegally because I get the impression in G4 that intercontinental travel has been banned due to the war-- the Shapers would not want rebels to escape the continent in order to regroup and return later, nor would they want to lose conscripts and future conscripts.)

 

The classes I came up with are very generic and focus more on freelancers-- classes like mercenary (instead of soldier-- has training in melee combat, may come from a military or tribal background), swashbuckler (your more dextrous-based warrior, the pirate warrior), scout (your rogue + archer class), explorer (wilderness rogue/warrior-- very similar to the ranger, but with weaker combat skills and stronger naval/leadership skills-- begins with 1 level of priestcraft), mage (your wizard class), and spiritist (very generic priest class that is a mix between cleric, shaman, and druid) Nowhere near the number or variety of Avernum classes (no mage/priest mix, no barbarian, also no magely equivalent to the ranger)

 

I also just last night thought up another funny line from that scene.

 

Alwan walks over to Greta and leans in closer to whisper to her. They seem to think that you can't hear them for some reason, but you can.

Stop talking to these shady foreigners. We could be in enough trouble as it is. Disobeying Shaper Diwaniya's orders and going to visit those filthy Rebels. Dealing with them, and then leaving without even killing a single one... Violating the quarantine... Not to mention the number of keys that our leader has stolen..."

 

Speaking of a grasp on Alwan, did you know that there is a dummied forced conversation with Alwan in G3? A pity it wasn't included because it gives a better picture of Alwan's gradual change over the game (also somewhat amusing when he takes his frustrations out on Greta unprovoked)

If you are interested, the file with the dialog is in the Scripts folder, and its title is "z15eastdockdlg.txt"

Here are a few of lines from it:

 

"My training is as a Guardian. We are warriors, soldiers. We receive guidance from the Shapers. We are told where to go to war, and when."

 

"I have not been taught how to react to these situations, what the Shaper laws and guidelines are."

 

He points at Greta. "Even she is better suited to this. Agents, even failed ones..." She looks away, annoyed by the insult. "They study our code, so they know what to do, even when apart from our leaders."

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I have an idea for the plot of the Sholai idea: Takes place shortly after G5, shaping has been introduced to the Sholai lands and of course, chaos ensues. There's some rogue Sholai captain like Trakov has started trying to use shaping to take over and subjugate the rest of the Sholai, and whichever ending of G5 turns out to be cannon (I know it never exactly follows any of the endings but one of them's usually close, I think Astoria's is best to use because it leaves the most pieces on the chessboard so to speak) there's remnants of the more radical factions of the Rebels and Loyalists trying to regroup in the Sholai's territory, and a flood of refugees from Terrestria. Whatever sort of centralized government the Sholai have is trying to figure out how to deal with it all, whether to stay neutral, or back/ally with the moderate or radical shaper factions, and fend off the man who would be king (the aforementioned rogue captain).

 

If the Sholai have a clan/tribal structure then perhaps they have a kind of parliament where the heads of the clans meet and there's a sort of prime minister/arch-chancelor who isn't true head of state but just sort of presides over the legislature even though they have the real power. There'd be factions within the sholai paired with all of the different outsider (funny how the shapers become the outsiders here) vying for control, and a sort of Xenophobic faction that wants to kick out all the refugees and stop letting people in. The Trakovites of course will be present, not directly allied to the xenophobes but sort of working with them to keep shaping from spreading even though they want to help the civilian refugees.

 

The radical parts of each outsider and corresponding sholai faction will be treating with the man who would be king, promising to aid his coup if he then backs their cause once in power. His goal is simple conquest so he'll side with whoever he feels is most expedient and can offer the most power (and thus probably leaning towards the Drakons). He's the guy who's trying to build a Geneforge this time, since there's got to be at least one in every game.

 

Your character would start as a relatively low ranking captain, who as with all the Geneforge games somehow becomes the deciding force to tip the balance of power. Somehow you have to have gotten the ability to shape (wouldn't properly be a Geneforge game otherwise). Perhaps you unwittingly sail into a naval battle between some of the factions and come across a canister. You get captured by the man who would be king's forces and then have to fight your way out, rescue your crew and ship. During this escape you first encounter members of the other [moderate] factions who are also prisoner, and envoys from the Radical ones, just to introduce the whole cast. You could rescue either the [moderate] shaper or [moderate] rebel ambassador who was on their way to meet with the Sholai's real government. I suppose with high enough leadership you could help both since they're diplomats from factions that are theoretically at peace who just want to get on with their mission.

 

If this is to be a seafaring game, then having an upgradable ship that serves as your home base would be nice. You could get an anvil eventually, more crew members, etc. On land it'd behave similarly to normal gene forge zones like with G3 (or have Avernum's open world, why not?) except when you leave via boat it doesn't just teleport you, it puts you on your ship and you consult that world map to sail around. Sometimes you'll be interrupted by a naval battle, some of which will be key plot point that always happen, others just random pirates and sea monsters. I would love it if your companions that aren't creations (like alwan and greta in G3) actually had full inventories, and you had a little more control over their development as they level up. Part of why I want this is because I enjoyed the party dynamic from Avernum, but also because I hated how in Geneforge you'd get all this shiny loot and you'd just sell it all because what you had was better. This way it doesn't all go to waste, you can give it to your companions. You wouldn't have this degree of control over your whole crew, but over the core group. Probably limit this core party to 4; you+3 companions, you can change who comes with you each time you leave your ship (a la dragon age and mass effect) out of a pool of maybe 5 or 6 tops. Some companions will be more powerful than others by default and some will be associated with factions, some could be mutually exclusive even aside from faction divides.

 

For you, in terms of faction choice, there's two main branches; first you decide whether to join the man who would be king, or become an agent of the Sholai's legitimate government. From there, you determine which of the outsider factions your chosen side ultimately aligns with. The usurper side (shorter than having to keep typing "the man who would be king") is excluded from the Xenophobes or Trakovites because he's enthusiastically embracing shaping, and also excluded from the moderate factions who want peace. Their ultimate goal regardless of which sub-faction you pick is to (with your chosen sub-faction's help) overthrow the legitimate government.

 

Loyal Sholai who want to side with the outsider radicals start by joining the Sholai faction that sympathizes with them and must first convince either the Drakons or Alwanites (as I called the radical shapers in my other G6 idea) that it's better to help them gain control of the Sholai government and work with them than it is to side with the Usurper and overthrow the legitimate government, and then after securing that alliance help their sub faction take control of the legitimate government and then together crush the Usurper. Moderates skip that first bit but have to suppress the radical-sympathizing sholai factions and then proceed to crushing the Usurper. Xenophobes help their faction gain dominance and then proceed to merrily slaughter everyone not Sholai.

 

complicated. But it'd be mad cool.

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I suppose to simplify it's implementation, the multiple sub-factions within each main grouping, or who share common enemies, will have to kill roughly the same sets of people and do similar stuff but with different dialogue.

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Only to an extent. It would be similar to 20th and 21st century coalitions, axises, UN treaties, NAFTA, the EU, things like that, some of which would change between games (and also involve a few new ones/disappearance of old ones between games)

 

And regarding task of scripting the overland naval map, BTW, it's already half to 2/3rds done via the Avernum remakes. Most of the remaining scripting would involve the editing of blockage types and the naval battle screen & all that entails.

Everything else would still be a monumentous task, though.

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Owenmoz   

I made the thread on buying the rights. Unlikelly to happen. But this all seems like such a good idea just to throw away. And yeah. Using modern day institutions as base adds for realism of the game. I like the subfactions idea. I dont likw the stereotypical power crazed usurper idea. I strongly believe in morally ambiguous factions. I also liked how you included shapping into it. But i'd find it complicated in terms of mechanics since ifyou have an avernum style party with mass effect/avadon recruitment build creations couldnt fit. At most they would be non permanent summoning style things. And i agree with geneforge 3 style mapping for internal ones. So much potential... *cries*. also yah got the deleted scripts but i liked how alwan developed. I was happy to see both of them in the later games. They really change over time become somehow alike. And despise for eachother got molded into mutual respect

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I also liked how you included shapping into it. But i'd find it complicated in terms of mechanics since ifyou have an avernum style party with mass effect/avadon recruitment build creations couldnt fit.

 

I agree 100%. Esp. since it's not a Geneforge game, it's a spinoff series.

 

And yeah, now that you mention real life factions/orgs, I just remembered the Spice Wars of the 19th century, which would be an obvious component of this type of setting/genre.

 

I dont likw the stereotypical power crazed usurper idea.

 

The crazed usurper could be a consequence of the unequal power thing that I mentioned earlier, much like Nazi Germany and the Treaty of Versailles-- which, for a refresher course, bankrupted the country and left the desperate citizens looking for promises of a way out, and an enemy to blame the situation on-- of which Germany had plenty. This made it easier for a charismatic dictator to exploit the people, and also remember that the actual degree of Nazi atrocities was kept secret from the populace. Enemies were based off of nearly 1000 years of antisemitism and antiziganism (anti "gypsy" racism against Roma and Sinti) as well as extremist nationalism AND blood feud (specifically, abuses against German civilians by certain countries' militias during the first World War)

 

Throughout human history and prehistory, for most wars, blood feud has been a key motivator in war crimes. In the Sholai setting, the usurper would most likely be a militocracy led by a charismatic general that ousted the royal family in a coup that likely consisted of an assassination(s) with a hated neighbor or tribe framed for it (It would very much be a facsimile of would have happened after A5 had the Darkside Loyalists won)

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The grey can come in as a question as to how crazed or not crazed this Usurper really is. I'd like him to have a better ideological motive than Barzal's world domination for its own sake to avoid cartoonish mustache-twirling villainy. I just hadn't really gotten that far when I typed my previous post.

Perhaps he feels the current government is too weak and indecisive to handle what's going on with the refugee crisis and arrival of shaping and feels they need to consolidate into a more typical nation-state and bulk up their military via shaping to survive in the global conflicts occurring instead of being preyed upon in their disunity. That's part of where helping him pick whether to back the shapers or Drakons comes in, if it were about power alone the Drakons would be an easy choice. He has to balance expedience with his purported ideology. Does he favor absolute order, or freedom at the risk of anarchy? does he truly support either side or is he using them to further his own end and plans to turn on them later?

 

The Trakov ending of G1 shows trakov to be a remarkably enlightened ruler, perhaps he looks at whats going on and wants to similarly remake the world, feeling that it will be more prosperous under his rule. Very few real-world conquerors were cartoon villains, and even those that were (hitler) had an ideology they believed in and viewed themselves in a heroic light.

 

I was thinking that if you've got a 4 person party, then you simply have less creation slots available than you would otherwise, not all that different than how companions like Alwan and Greta, or Brodus Blade, or Mekhen and such work already.

 

 

It's the shapers and rebels who are most mercenary here, particularly the radical subsets; to them the Sholai are just a tool to further their ends be it the current government or the Usurper (sort of how like the US and Russia mucked around in the middle east and we both picked dictators to back and essentially used the place as a sandbox for proxy wars- and still do). You, as a Sholai character have to decide what you feel is ultimately best for your people. The moderate shapers and moderate rebels are sort of on the same team, and just want to root out their own radical splinter groups. They throw in their lot with the current government by default because they don't really want to rock the boat while the radicals court the one who wants to overturn the status quo rather than maintain it. Cold war vs. hot war.

 

The Xenophobes aren't totally unjustified either, they see that their country is being drawn into a conflict they want no part of and don't know how to stop that from happening except to drive them all out by force. The Usurper by contrast sees that it's inevitable and isolationism will only hamstring them in the long run.

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It'd be interesting to see where existing characters like Greta, Alwan, and the other councilors, Litalia (especially Litalia) fit in. And does Alwan's dedication to the law and order make him side with the moderates to uphold their treaties even though he disagrees with them? or does he back the radicals who can't stomach dealing with the Rebels at all even though they're seditious against the establishment? And if we assume an Astoria-ish ending to G5 where Ghaldring dies, who will fill his shoes amongst the Drakons? And whatever the equivalent of the G5 PC is up to? All the Geneforges have been rather vague about what happens to the previous protagonists. G1 guy is dead or something probably as is G2 (if I understand correctly Litalia is part of the cleanup crew sent after whatever the G2 PC did canonically, not the G2 protagonist) The G3 protagonist presumably took the rebel path, as did the G4, where did they vanish to? did they die? is the G4 protagonist just some rebel general in the east where we don't see him? you'd think that people who so drastically tipped the balances of power and directly steered the course of fate would get more mention than just vanishing into obscurity and vague references. God only knows who the G5 protagonist used to be anyways? (I suspect G1 protagonist, actually)

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there's remnants of the more radical factions of the Rebels and Loyalists trying to regroup in the Sholai's territory,

 

Whatever sort of centralized government the Sholai have is trying to figure out how to deal with it all, whether to stay neutral, or back/ally with the moderate or radical shaper factions, and fend off the man who would be king (the aforementioned rogue captain).

 

Oh, I just want to specify that the Sholai nations are just one of the many nations of the setting. So it would be the government coalitions who are trying to sort it out. Also, it would likely include more rogue factions than just a Trakovite one, as the peoples of other nations would also be tempted. The Sholai most definitely would not stay neutral on this if the rogue Shapers/Rebels are endangering the populace of Sholai lands with rogue creations. The players, of course, ultimately have to decide which side they ally with.

And of course, the Wyldrym-like purists would be killing any Shaper, any servile, and any Terrestrian that they find.

 

Somehow you have to have gotten the ability to shape (wouldn't properly be a Geneforge game otherwise).

 

But it's not a Geneforge game. It's a spinoff series.

 

If this is to be a seafaring game, then having an upgradable ship that serves as your home base would be nice. You could get an anvil eventually, more crew members, etc. On land it'd behave similarly to normal gene forge zones like with G3

 

Yeah, we already thought of that. Possibly up until a certain point in the game, you have to dock and pay a crew (but not a whole lot, for balance sake) to repair your ship, but at some point in the game you recruit someone who will repair it for free (whenever you dock at a friendly town) after helping him defeat/save him from one of the regional big bad guys (e.g. the boss at the end of a sub-mission who you have to defeat in order to get access to the next area/region of zones) And of course there would have to be upgrades to weapons, hull armor, etc.

 

On land it'd behave similarly to normal gene forge zones like with G3

 

Yeah, that's the idea.

 

except when you leave via boat it doesn't just teleport you, it puts you on your ship and you consult that world map to sail around.

 

Actually, my idea was that when you board your ship, it opens up an overworld map like in the Avernum remakes (and the original first Avernum trilogy) Or maybe that's what you were trying to describe.

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I sort of ran with the Sholai idea separately from yours. I'd rather this be considered a proper Geneforge game than a spin-off, as interesting as that might be. And involving more people than the terrestrians and the Sholai would be broadening the scope too much imo, I'd rather the coalitions be between clans within the sholai rather than new nations we hadn't heard of. Almost like ancient greece with loosely affiliated city states but they're still all greeks. I don't want to dilute the iconic Geneforge feel too much, or decentralize the narrative too much and I think my idea already has a lot going on. Besides, if I wanted a game that didn't feel like Geneforge, I'd go play some other game that wasn't Geneforge rather than a tangentially related one in the same world. No offense, this is all just our personal visions for something that more than likely will never actually happen. I just wanted to clarify that I was diverging from your concept and my reasons for doing so.

 

the over world thing isn't how I was picturing the ship, at least not entirely. I viewed it more as a hub and home base, almost the way your ship is in Mass Effect. it could zoom out into an over world type thing from there, or perhaps merely during naval battles that interrupt your standard geneforge fast travel (like what happens in DragonAge). That's one thing I always felt Geneforge lacked, place that was YOURS where you could stash stuff, and potentially have to defend rather than just jacking someone's house and dumping all your stuff there. Like in G5 the anvil in the whitespires I just have all my crafting ingredients dumped unceremoniously on the floor.

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And this is why I wish Blades of Geneforge was a thing. So many possibilities. I really do want to make up a tabletop version so I can enact my ideas somehow, and anyone else who wants to can enact theirs.

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Owenmoz   

Ok, i think i have to call on both of you not to get too territorial with the ideas. Just try to get where one and the other is coming from ok? This was going much better when we were contributing and cooperating. I think the concept has room for both ideas to merge at the cost of some compromise i guess cause you both have good ideas. Now

I want to say i agree with i dont exist when it comes to your own place, tbh i got the idea first after getting done with cratoa-kel(or how you pronounce it? At the end of mera tev in geneforge 5) And i figured, it would be pretty neat to get your own fortress to protect/upgrade and organise, like the warden's keep in awakening except where you get new traders to sell in, they give you better prices, you upgrade your units, organise your creations and the like, get an anvil at some point etc. I'd like it to be raided with some frequence for like extra fun extra strategy and experience. In an arcade-ish way. But im guessing that could be the ship. But its slightly more complicated to map a ship and naval battles and so on. But i like the ship idea. Like one place where you're the boss and you control what happens.

 

Second while i agree that bringing too much outside forces and kingdoms and factions would make it a little bit like avadon and very not centric to the main story. But i also think they should be there. If you start as a sholai and its a seafaring game it would make sense that terrestria wont be the only place you explore. Maybe not too many other kingdoms. But im thinking at least two. And a bunch of minor civilisations that would act as servile cultist regions. Just for lore sake. I'd love it if the was a place made of ruins from another place. Like in geneforge 1. So just sholai and shapers seems a bit empty unless you're flying solo. I.e. my idea on top. But as part of a nation and capitain of a ship or what its best to have a bigger world. Maybe not engage all of it at the same time. Or like avernum and mass effect.

 

I would also like a conceptually scary main antagonist but i feel like there must be a build up to it. Maybe its only slightly mentioned in the first, introduced in the second and fought in the third. It has to be ancient and powerfull. The rest can be figured out over time.

 

I have to stress that i like the refugee crisis idea. Gives for more realism when it comes to the sholai people.

 

And i want to insist on the avernum style mainmap.

 

On shaping. I love shaping one main reason i loved the geneforge series. But if you want a dragon age/mass effect/avadon style rooster where you pick people. Specially if they have back stories or contribute/react differently to your actions it would be unlikelly you choose your creations over them. It g3 it was easy because they were just 2 and in g2 you'd favour your own creations due to the fact that you can control them. So unless you have limited recruits it would be complicated. I suppose maybe creations could only be used in the ship? Or idk. It doesnt matter much. It can be figured out. I'd rather have shaping but on this line due to setting and mechanisms its not necessary.

 

I just had an idea for a minor boss fight. A proto shaper. That could twist you and your party into different creations at any point temporarilly. So during the fight you could fight him as a fiora and as a gazer etc.. Of course each time he shifts you you lose health and you can only access your inventory in human form. So only the still humans in the party could heal you. That would be neat. Im thinking i agree with hyena of ice's timeline for the game but. Maybe first game during g3, second slightly after/during g5 and the last later. Otherwise no refuge crisis.

 

On the usurper, the thing about trajkov even if he was a very fair leader on his ending, going for him wasnt the natural course if anything the game sorta tried to position you against him. Same with barzhal(he wasnt fair though), and the rebels in g3, i guess g4 was the only really balanced game in that aspect. You didnt want to betray the rebels and you didnt really want to release the unbound so people ended up opting for the powergame. What im trying to say is i dont want one faction to be obviously more favored than another. I want people to have a really hard time choosing and the choices to be fairly distributed.

 

And deff yeah. Blades of geneforge would be awesome. Its so unfortunate jeff won't do it :(

 

And back to what i said first. In all likellyhood there wont be any geneforge 6 or a spin off. So there is no need to be overly assertive on your positions. They are just ideas and i think blend them in and you have a solid and diverse interesting plot/concept. Feel me? Not that i never do it, i think even in this thread i have been a little here and there. But colaboration in better than antagonism.

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That's why I did propose a limit on crew members you could take with you on land, leaving room for creations.

 

I don't really see any need to merge our ideas since none of this will happen anyways. He has his vision, I have mine, and we're both independently explaining what they are. It's not antagonistic, and there's no reason to collaborate to create…. nothing? an imaginary game? it's not like we actually are trying to create a real product where we have to compromise and work together. If the two of us were actually employees for some game company tasked with making a GF6, then yeah we'd have to find a middle ground but this is just hypothetical.

 

It make sense that other cultures might have token mentions and representation, much as there were always a couple random Sholai in each GF, there could be people from other places visiting the Sholai lands without really being part of the larger story.

 

Both of my game ideas are set firmly after G5 because they hinge upon the events of that game. Distant prequels are easier to do because the past is shrouded in mystery than it is to do games set between the existing ones where you're more tightly constrained by existing lore and story lines.

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Owenmoz   

That's why I did propose a limit on crew members you could take with you on land, leaving room for creations.

 

It make sense that other cultures might have token mentions and representation, much as there were always a couple random Sholai in each GF, there could be people from other places visiting the Sholai lands without really being part of the larger story.

 

Both of my game ideas are set firmly after G5 because they hinge upon the events of that game. Distant prequels are easier to do because the past is shrouded in mystery than it is to do games set between the existing ones where you're more tightly constrained by existing lore and story lines.

 

Yeah reduced companion crew options would solve that.

 

Also im thinking. Thats the thing prequels are constrained due to cannon ends. Sequels are constrained due to cannon beginings. To be honest i'd enjoy any. Its not likelly to happen though.

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Yeah reduced companion crew options would solve that.

 

Also im thinking. Thats the thing prequels are constrained due to cannon ends. Sequels are constrained due to cannon beginings. To be honest i'd enjoy any. Its not likelly to happen though.

 

yeah. Prequels for non-interactive media work well because you get to see how things came to be without feeling like your actions are irrelevant, the forgone conclusion becomes a positive rather than a negative. Star Wars is probably the best example, or any superhero origin story. For games, especially RPGs where player choice shaping the story is a big deal, that predestination becomes a negative since it makes your choices irrelevant. Sequels are constrained by cannon beginnings, but from there it's a blank canvas to paint on so I feel they're more suitable for a RPG unless it's a distant prequel where there's more wiggle room.

 

 

The thing I like about having 3 slots for crew companions when out and about on land while having a larger pool to choose from is that it creates its own interesting gameplay choice; who's best to bring with you for this mission? who works best together, what role do they fill that a creation can't, or what creations might I need to fill a role my party members can't. It's a mechanic that works very well in Bioware's games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

 

Also I would like to see the shaping system expanded somewhat, not adding more power creep with a 6th Tier, but more lateral expansion; give us maybe a third variant of each creation, possibly give us poddlings, which provide an array of de-buffs depending on which one you choose but have their damage reduced to compensate and make them fill a support role. Add a healing Vlish. Let us make those cryoroamers and guardian roamers, let us make searing AND plated artillas, Stinging AND plated clawbugs, maybe the redshell ones. Battle Gammas (I've always wanted to be able to make those) The thadh shade and the corrupted version; I thought the charged creations in G4&5 were great and added an interesting new mechanic but I disliked how they displaced other creations I'd grown attached to. Might be a bit odd if you're a Sholai to gain access to so many different types, but that's what Canisters are for, right???

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Owenmoz   

 

 

 

 

The thing I like about having 3 slots for crew companions when out and about on land while having a larger pool to choose from is that it creates its own interesting gameplay choice; who's best to bring with you for this mission? who works best together, what role do they fill that a creation can't, or what creations might I need to fill a role my party members can't. It's a mechanic that works very well in Bioware's games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

 

Also I would like to see the shaping system expanded somewhat, not adding more power creep with a 6th Tier, but more lateral expansion; give us maybe a third variant of each creation, possibly give us poddlings, which provide an array of de-buffs depending on which one you choose but have their damage reduced to compensate and make them fill a support role. Add a healing Vlish. Let us make those cryoroamers and guardian roamers, let us make searing AND plated artillas, Stinging AND plated clawbugs, maybe the redshell ones. Battle Gammas (I've always wanted to be able to make those) The thadh shade and the corrupted version; I thought the charged creations in G4&5 were great and added an interesting new mechanic but I disliked how they displaced other creations I'd grown attached to. Might be a bit odd if you're a Sholai to gain access to so many different types, but that's what Canisters are for, right???

 

 

Well it worked better in mass effect than dragon age. As in DA it is important you try to take all the party members sort of equally otherwise some quests and interactions won't happen. In mass effect most interactions happen in normandy. So you can actually just pick what you think is usefull. I gotta say that the idea is good though. Just unless you dont give the much personality/background it will be hassle to fully complete the game.

 

Also i always toughts of making new creations you know? Like maybe make first tier obsolete and add new ones. Or just completelly change the creations. Or to a lesser extent what you said. Allow for further upgrades.

 

I honestly disliked charged creations though. To me they were fancier more expensive pyroroamers. A complete waste of essence.

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Second while i agree that bringing too much outside forces and kingdoms and factions would make it a little bit like avadon and very not centric to the main story.

 

Depends on whether you're going for the Geneforge 6 or Spinoff idea. In a spinoff setting, you probably wouldn't be visiting Terrestria at all (except for the Alwan/Greta cameo in the 2nd title) because it would be too much work for Jeff (esp. in regards to the scaling-- kinda like he gave up on trying to insert the A5 map into A6) Personally I'd rather see the rest of the world rather than more Terrestria and more Shaper this, Shaper that. I want to see the Sholai and the nations they interact with.

We have 5 games that take place on Shaper lands. How about 3 games that take place on the same world, but DO NOT involve Shaper lands at all aside from a few optional islands with bonus regions/dungeons, a brief stop at W. Dhonal in the second title, and a stop at or near Sucia at the beginning of the first title?

 

Also, keeping the interactions with Shaper Lands and non-rogue/mad Shapers in general would avoid problems with the G1~5 canon.

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Owenmoz   

Ok. But we all agree its not to be in terrestia. Or known shaper lands.

 

Yah. That i really dislike cannons. But i'd like some context to it so in that aspect cannons would be usefull. Has two sides.

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