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So here are the average numbers from Steamcharts for the past month.

New Avernum 1 19.8 New Avernum 2 10 Geneforge 1 9.8 Avadon 1 8.2 Avadon 2 7.5 Geneforge 5 2.9 Avernum 6 2.3 Avernum 4 1.9 Geneforge 2 1.5 Geneforge 3 1.3 Geneforge 4 1.1 Nethergate 0.9 Avernum 5 0.7

 

A) I'm surprised that the numbers aren't higher

 

B) Geneforge 1, really? I mean, it's one of my faves, but I didn't realise it was the popular one.

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Geneforge can be clunky, but it is by far the most unique series Spiderweb has ever put together. For a lot of people, "weird" has value in and of itself.

 

I'unno. It took me a long while to warm up to the series, and I honestly am not sure I ever actually finished it, but the more I look back, the fonder I think of it.

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It looks like the entry points for series do the best on those charts, which isn't really that surprising.

 

It's true that G1 is technically a bit clunky, but it has very consistently been the highest rated (on average) by members of the community here. It was very fresh, and it has aged well.

 

I'd actually argue that Exile(/Avernum) is the most unique world Spiderweb created. Geneforge's mechanics don't really stand out any more than Exile's; they are all traditional fantasy mechanics with different names, and the manage-your-recruitable-or-custom-units-(probably-monsters) genre has been going strong since the mid 90's. The detailed backstory and atmosphere of life in the caves, and the societies that emerged there, IMO separate Avernum more from standard fantasy worlds than Geneforge's shapers and creations. In both cases though the setting of the original game is a lot more unique than what we get later on -- Geneforge, of course, gets a lot more humans, while Avernum gets the surface and post-peace Avernum, and in both cases it's more Monty Hall fantasy and modern grit and less of a unique world.

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I forced my way through Geneforge 1 despite hating most of it, I liked G2 a lot more at the start, but when the full map was revealed the game died for me. have yet to finish 2 or try 3,4,5

 

I love the concept so much but... PERSONAL OPINION!

 

gameplay wise; the battle mechanics are sooo slow. I might have liked it more siding with the takers or doing a diplomatic/pacifist run but that's just not my style.

Tell me if I'm missing something, but creations are just party members with no equipment, spells, abilities, or personality; making them dull to use in this system. It felt like playing exile with 5 dedicated warriors except less item carry capacity.

 

Story wise; I got tired of serviles and ruins very fast. I just wanted to see what living shaper society looked like, the start of G2 was a bit of that until the big map reveal, although it still more lively than G1 even after that point.

 

I could respect that G1 gave a strong sense of isolation, maybe I'm just not a fan of that.

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Yes, the monsters of Exile were DEFINITELY not lifted directly from tabletop D&D -- campaigns of which Jeff has explicitly cited as the source for some elements of Exile, including, most explicitly of all, the bulk of the giant spiders (the GIFTS). :p

 

This is how rumours get started. If you want to make the argument, make it yourself, don't ascribe it to people from the freewheeling early days of the board and then present it as if it's a sober argument.

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I hear a certain subset of the ancient Australians, millennia before the British started colonizing Australia, worshipped the skulls of their ancestors, and would channel the spirits of the dead through the skulls, which they believed were talking! That was the true origin of the Xian Skull in Avernum 3, and if you take the Xian Skull to the Cult of the Sacred Item, and put all the items in a crate and shove it into the water without killing a single cultist, the cult will reveal its true history, regarding the sacred items in general and of course, the mysterious Xian Skull itself...

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I'd actually argue that Exile(/Avernum) is the most unique world Spiderweb created. Geneforge's mechanics don't really stand out any more than Exile's; they are all traditional fantasy mechanics with different names, and the manage-your-recruitable-or-custom-units-(probably-monsters) genre has been going strong since the mid 90's. The detailed backstory and atmosphere of life in the caves, and the societies that emerged there, IMO separate Avernum more from standard fantasy worlds than Geneforge's shapers and creations. In both cases though the setting of the original game is a lot more unique than what we get later on -- Geneforge, of course, gets a lot more humans, while Avernum gets the surface and post-peace Avernum, and in both cases it's more Monty Hall fantasy and modern grit and less of a unique world.

 

Eh... I'd say while Avernum might be the most extensive and detailed, Genefore still beats it soundly in terms of conceptual uniqueness. Avernum's pretty straight up fantasy with some unique elements, but Geneforge is this conceptually divergent sci-fi hybrid that I at least have basically nothing to compare it to.

 

I'm not saying Avernum isn't my favorite Spiderweb series - I'll defend it to my dying breath. But really, how much of it, if it hasn't been done before, has at least been done since? Avernum, while still very unique compared to what I'd consider "main stream" (Dragon Age, Forgotten Realms, ect.) is still awash in many staples of the genre.

 

I just think that if you had to compile a list of things that are truly unique, or even largely unique to Avernum, that list would be a whole lot shorter than what Geneforge has to offer.

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I'll go out on a limb and say that Geneforge is still more unique.

 

What do we have in Avernum? A generic kingdom with generic monsters and an evil oppressive empire, but this time it's in a cave. That gives some fun setting detail, like glowing moss and canyons, as well as some good reasons to cast the Empire as a evil, because of how awful it is to eat mushrooms and sick cow as your entire diet. Your team of adventurers fights demons, dragons, giants, bandits... The nephil and the slith are both cool and unique, especially as their societies are (violently) explored, at least, but their rudimentary idea is just "cat people" and "lizard people". It's not your standard romp through fantasy land, but it isn't too far, either. Later games have some unique improvements (crystal souls, the Anama) and some more generic additions (Vahnatai in general, Valorim).

 

Geneforge has an abandoned, ruined magical laboratory / society. That's not the most unique setting, but the abandoned slave race that has independently formed into three distinct social groupings is. The Sholai, I feel like, are much more on the unique side in general though not totally unknown. My history is blurry, but I feel like the moral complexities that G1 got into were ahead of their time in gaming. The later explorations of Shaper society are pretty cool. Geneforge very well could have been a genre piece, if it stuck to Jeff's original plan of writing it as sci-fi, but as fantasy it breaks conventions.

 

Avadon is the most generic.

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When the first colonists were sent to Australia there were similar rumors that there was no air down under and everyone would die a mercifully swift death.

 

—Alorael, who also believes several early explorers (erroneously) stated that there was no natural sunlight, and therefore no natural vegetation, as the sun had no no interest in being envenomed and/or kicked to death and therefore stuck to northern latitudes when passing over Australia.

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Although it's fun to play along, I really don't get the "Everything in Australia is trying to kill you" thing. Yes we have some venomous creatures but most people don't encounter them very often. Deaths from snakes & spiders are mercifully rare.

 

On the other hand, America has BIG mammals with claws & teeth that can rip people to bits. You have bears and coyotes and killer bees and rattlesnakes and wolverines & mountain lions & rabid animals (no rabies in Australia!). Things some people carry guns to protect against. We have kangaroos which are only a problem when they jump in front of your car.

 

I'd be much more scared of a bear than a piddly redback spider.

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The way I see it, Avernum has generic monsters and a fairly generic plot, but a unique location/environment for its setting, and revisiting it often causes you to feel a lot more connection to the places. Geneforge has unique monsters (mostly) and unique themes behind it (It's not good vs evil at all, mostly), but a fairly generic location/environment and the fact you change locations in each game means less connection.

 

It's all about which you prefer.

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On the other hand, America has BIG mammals with claws & teeth that can rip people to bits. You have bears and coyotes and killer bees and rattlesnakes and wolverines & mountain lions & rabid animals (no rabies in Australia!). Things some people carry guns to protect against. We have kangaroos which are only a problem when they jump in front of your car.

 

in fairness having an animal the size of a large adult human jump in front of your car is actually a pretty big problem. fun fact: in the US deer kill more people than any of those animals you mentioned just from the car accidents they're involved in

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The way I see it, Avernum has generic monsters and a fairly generic plot, but a unique location/environment for its setting, and revisiting it often causes you to feel a lot more connection to the places. Geneforge has unique monsters (mostly) and unique themes behind it (It's not good vs evil at all, mostly), but a fairly generic location/environment and the fact you change locations in each game means less connection.

 

It's all about which you prefer.

This seems like a pretty good summary, although I would assert that Avernum has a distinctly non-generic backstory.

 

Also, I gotta disagree on the uniqueness of Geneforge monsters. With the notable exception of the Vlish, most Geneforge creations are just a generic fantasy monster with one or two tweaks and a different name. This is most obvious with Drayks and Gazers, who have basically their original name, basically their original abilities, and almost exactly the classic behavioral/personality traits of the monster. I do think that they are well implemented and a positive part of the Geneforge world, but unique they are not. I think the genericness of most other creations would be revealed if only their names were different: imagine the same creations, but referred to as Giant Slug, Stunning Bug, Draconian, Bugbear, War Troll... even some of the more unusual ones, like Rotdhizons, appeared in Avernum games, with identical stats, as "Pustulent Zombie" and the like.

 

I'm not criticizing the Geneforge creations here -- I just don't think most are even as unique as Nephils and Sliths, who are admittedly just very well fleshed out, alternate takes on lizardmen and catpeople/felpurrs.

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I too agree with that characterization, though I disagree with Slarty on the unique backstory for Avernum. It's just a spin-off of oppressed pilgrims making a home in a new, dangerous land. It even has some of the same righteous overtones, though I wouldn't describe Formello or the Castle as a city on a hill.

 

I don't know if Jeff originally intended to have each Geneforge game in a different location, or if he realized that as he went due to how the plot was pushing him, but I have to admit that it gives the games a little bit of freshness. I would have liked to revisit some places, of course, but it was also exciting getting to explore places that had been discussed at length in prior games, such as Dillame.

 

I might quibble and say that the Geneforge setting is more unique with everything being creations, from many of the doors to the livestock and farm animals, but I'd be wrong. On the surface, yes, the setting is very generic (with a lot of swamps). The techno-bureaucracy is kinda a cool fantasy government that you don't see too often, though! I'm also not quite sure that some of the creations are as generic as Slarty says, but many of them - drayks, war tralls, clawbugs - are in fact. Battle alphas, vlish, Drakons (to an extent) are all pretty neat though!

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Was Dillame actually discussed at length? I thought it was just vaguely mentioned once. Could be misremembering. Still, I'm not sure how that's any fresher than seeing how a town and its inhabitants evolve over time.

 

Battle alphas are neat? The creation so generic it gets an abstract noun and a letter of the alphabet for a name? Genuinely confused. What am I missing here?

 

And minor quibble: they aren't oppressed pilgrims, they are oppressed and unwilling arrivals. Big difference, not minor spin-off, IMO. The majority of the folks who show up in X1 could never be there if Avernum were a land of pilgrims.

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re: Dillame. No, I don't believe it was discussed at length, but many of the games hint at cool places that you then get to explore in other games. Valeya and Poryphra were also examples of that, now that I think of it.

 

re: Battle Alphas. do they have the coolest name? No. But they are still cool, in my subjective opinion.

 

re: Pilgrims. Sure, they were forcibly banished, but in the narrative I was thinking of people were forced to leave due to oppression as well. So, still forcibly ejected, just not to a specific place like Exile. I still think the comparison has some validity.

 

In the end, both games obviously have aspects of fantasy genre and other aspects that are more or less unique. I don't think we can or will agree on which is more so; de gustibar non est disputandum.

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Randomly mentioning a city with almost no specific description or meaningful context in the ending text of G1, and never elaborating on it again, is not really the same thing as hinting at a cool place.

 

Can you... give any reason, however subjective, why you think battle alphas are cool? I realize that it's subjective judgment, but I'm curious to try and understand it better.

 

"Get out of our country" means you end up in some other land. It might not be as nice, there might be serious material consequences, it might lack cultural significance -- but that's still a far cry from "you're going through a one-way portal into a cave system full of monsters and demons, where we've been sending criminals and bloodthirsty demihumans as well, and if you somehow survive you'll never see the sun again, or your loved ones, or eat normal food."

 

I also think there's a real difference between ejecting an entire people en masse, and ejecting individuals who are not otherwise connected. That part about being forcibly separated from everyone you know...

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Avernum may be one of the more extreme cases of exile, but you have to give Geneforge credit - the "creator, creation" relationship is still pretty unexplored, particularly when compared with the idea of banishment. Even then it's mostly relegated to deities, or "elder races" or the like, not contemporary political powers. As Shapers, they're not just the ruling political force - they hold a position generally reserved for Gods and the extremely godlike.

 

I guess Battle Alphas are one of the more "generic" monsters Geneforge has to offer, but really... it's a high-end biogolem. In most settings, a generic golemn in and of itself is a big deal. In the midst of all of Geneforge's menagerie it's easy for that fact to get lost in the shuffle, but overall the Battle Alpha is still pretty unique.

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Geneforge has golems. They are pretty much the same as Avernum's golems, and they don't seem to have much in common with battle alphas. But they are definitely a lot "higher end" than a battle alpha.

 

I guess I'm asking for anything specific about the battle alpha that makes it unique, rather than the assertion that it just is unique.

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"Get out of our country" means you end up in some other land. It might not be as nice, there might be serious material consequences, it might lack cultural significance -- but that's still a far cry from "you're going through a one-way portal into a cave system full of monsters and demons, where we've been sending criminals and bloodthirsty demihumans as well, and if you somehow survive you'll never see the sun again, or your loved ones, or eat normal food."

 

I also think there's a real difference between ejecting an entire people en masse, and ejecting individuals who are not otherwise connected. That part about being forcibly separated from everyone you know...

Speaking of Australia.....

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My final word on the battle alpha, because I think the tangent has gone off too long.

 

I don't know what makes Avernum's, or even Geneforge's, golems "higher end" than battle alphas, aside from just power. I also don't care too much.

 

Battle alphas look cool, that's their main feature that I appreciate about them as nice. I cannot think of many things that look like battle alphas do. Sometimes, they can talk, which is also cool.

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