So why creations don't become ghosts?

[apolloooo]

if you pay attention to my recent topic you'll know i'm playing trough G2, and there's some interesting conversation that i read. i forgot the exact words and with whom it was, but it said that nobody never see servile ghosts or other creation, intelligent or not.

 

the player ourselves in g1 and g2 at least, never encountered creation ghost either, it's all humans either by will, curse or magic. is it because creation basically don't contain "soul" in them? since they are made from the essence goo, raw genetic material and magic? pretty much they're like organic golems. but what about bred creations? and creations that can use magic? in g1, we know that person with powerful magic can bound part of their soul to stay as a shade after death (like the shaper ghosts in shaper tomb), say can magically adept servile do the same and and somehow make a part of them stay as a shade after they perish.

 

the closest we have to creation "ghosts" is thahd shades, which is not ghost at all, just incorporeal living being. i dunno if this is explained/shown further in g3/4/5, but i can't wait so long because how intriguing i find it is

[Blxz]

Honestly, I don't know if they ever cover it. Although the shades in general were always the weakest part of the lore in my opinion. I much prefer the tangible things in the game lore rather than the prevalence for ghosts with ice attacks.

[apolloooo]

yeah, but partly they explained how shades came to be in crystal cavern. they are natural occurrence in area with high-concentration of magic energy where it mutates and form life of its own somehow. that's why thahd shades is possible to make. but now, ghosts, with the context the soul of dead people isn't exactly explained well aside from they exist.

[Hyena of Ice]

It was partially explained in Geneforge 2 in Ellarah's crypt (or whoever's crypt that was)There are ways to create creations that are shades. In G3, there is a creature called a "Thahd Shade", which is of the Mindless rather than Creation type (Creature Type 3 instead of 1) There was no undead category prior to G4, and G4's itemchars.txt file lacks a thahd shade, but it's most likely supposed to be undead. I do not recall where they appear in G2 and G3, though.In G4 the only undead are the shade type (though I think there are some unique/boss/zone-specific enemies of the undead type)None of the other G2 or G3 monsters outside of the Shade type appear to be shades.

 

ghosts, with the context the soul of dead people isn't exactly explained well aside from they exist.

Actually, it is explained several times.Shades can be created naturally/spontaneously from strong concentrations of magic. These were never souls of the dead, and are typically more blob-like than humanoid.

 

Shades of the dead can be created in various ways-- one way is similar to the natural shades, except that this occurs when a corpse is exposed to such magics, or someone is killed by powerful magics.

G1 has this to say:

Shapers don't usually like to have the dead so close to their work. It can have unpredictable results.

 

G3 has this to say about the spirits in Phasia's Workshop:

You can't be sure whether these shades were created by the leaking magic of the smelter or some sinister spell of the traitors that murdered them. All you know is that something has caused the spirits of those who died to be stuck here.

 

Which brings up the second cause of spirits of the dead-- necromancy. Which the shapers have barred.

 

There is also a third cause, in which sage-like characters (such as Thithin in G3) remain in the world of the living for the purpose of self-contemplation.

[Goldengirl]

It's probably one of the things that the Shapers "programmed" into their creations, much like how most creations are designed to be sterile to stop rogue infestations from becoming a persistent problem. Not worrying about abused creations coming back as ghosts is just another such thing to defend against in preventing rogues. That's more of a hypothesis, though.

 

I think that the type of magic is wildly different from Shaping, and so doesn't get much focus in game mechanics nor in the larger universe at all, since Shaping is seen as the dominant form of magic. A lot of the ghosts we see once we get to G4 and G5 are ancient ghosts from civilizations long gone, which would have had different forms of magic than Shaping. That's been my interpretation, supported by the existence of places like Travald's Crypt in G5.

 

Also, I think there's also just a lack of opportunity. Creations would first have to be intelligent, which is relatively rare until the Rebellion. They would also have to be able to use magic, or have someone do it to them; that definitely didn't happen until the Rebellion. They would have to have access to an entirely different type of magic, which is hard since they struggle to get every bit of knowledge that they get. And lastly, they would have to have a strong, malevolent urge for revenge or hatred of something in particular, to help tie them to the mortal realm. That's a lot of boxes that have to be checked, and not a long time for creations to have the opportunity to check them.

[Sudanna]

You do meet plenty of plain old Shaper ghosts, though. A few of the Sucia researchers end up as ghosts, don't they? There's the one guy on Dhonal's Isle in his own crypt that you can talk into giving you a stat boost. Probably more, that's just off the top of my head,.

[apolloooo]

It was partially explained in Geneforge 2 in Ellarah's crypt (or whoever's crypt that was)There are ways to create creations that are shades. In G3, there is a creature called a "Thahd Shade", which is of the Mindless rather than Creation type (Creature Type 3 instead of 1) There was no undead category prior to G4, and G4's itemchars.txt file lacks a thahd shade, but it's most likely supposed to be undead. I do not recall where they appear in G2 and G3, though.In G4 the only undead are the shade type (though I think there are some unique/boss/zone-specific enemies of the undead type)None of the other G2 or G3 monsters outside of the Shade type appear to be shades.

 

ghosts, with the context the soul of dead people isn't exactly explained well aside from they exist.

Actually, it is explained several times.Shades can be created naturally/spontaneously from strong concentrations of magic. These were never souls of the dead, and are typically more blob-like than humanoid.

 

Shades of the dead can be created in various ways-- one way is similar to the natural shades, except that this occurs when a corpse is exposed to such magics, or someone is killed by powerful magics.

G1 has this to say:

Shapers don't usually like to have the dead so close to their work. It can have unpredictable results.

 

G3 has this to say about the spirits in Phasia's Workshop:

You can't be sure whether these shades were created by the leaking magic of the smelter or some sinister spell of the traitors that murdered them. All you know is that something has caused the spirits of those who died to be stuck here.

 

Which brings up the second cause of spirits of the dead-- necromancy. Which the shapers have barred.

 

There is also a third cause, in which sage-like characters (such as Thithin in G3) remain in the world of the living for the purpose of self-contemplation.

ah that is a great explanation, but as far as creation shdes, in g1, level 3 of create thahd unlock the creation of shade/phantom thahd. but the whole necromancy thing makes sense. yeah most of the ghosts we met in g1 is the tribal native that almost nobody know about. and the shape in sucia island probably have the knowledge of necro magic and since it's going to be barred soon anyway, they use it on themselves. thanks

[Elyssaen]

Hyena, I've recently binged on 2-5 and I think it's clarified somewhere that shades aren't the same as the ghosts of the dead. It's also explicitly said by one NPC that only human ghosts are encountered – not serviles or thahds. A good example of ghosts are the victims at Dead Pass in Geneforge 2. They're not the same sort of creature as the shades at the Shade Patrol in the same game: they don't even look the same. Ghosts have a translucent version of their appearance in life, whereas shades are more featureless.

 

I think the answer is that creations must lack a 'soul', but I always saw it as implied that soul and essence were related, and we know serviles can have at least some essence. I think it's possible that serviles and drakons (which definitely have essence, as well as presumably their drank predecessors) can becom ghosts, but it just hasn't happened yet.

 

If serviles can't become ghosts it makes the theory that serviles were Shaped from humans originally (a G1 NPC's theory, I read) slightly suspect. Then again, I find that odd anyway: if serviles are Shaped from humans, and if they can be quick-Shaped on the fly like the PC's creations, why has no-one quick-Shaped humans from scratch?

[Blxz]

why has no-one quick-Shaped humans from scratch?

 

Well we know they can be shaped as that is what the geneforge and canisters do. As for 'from scratch' the question is: Why would you want to?

 

There are obviously no shortage of humans around that can be bullied and dominated into doing what is wanted. But they are also considered to have more rights and needs and all that when compared to serviles. There seems to be no functional reason why you would want to shape a human from scratch.

 

tl;dr version: Serviles will do most jobs and when you do need a human you can normally just get one without the need for shaping.

[Elyssaen]

I'd do it if I was a immoral Shaper in Geneforge 5's full-blown war. Quick-Shape a few adult humans: apparently they'll have the innate ability to walk right away, as we never needed to teach our fyoras to walk. Select ones with Shaping potential, absorb the others. Train skilled indoctrinated Shapers very quickly, who you can re-absorb if needed. Throw a control tool in if you're Rawal.

[Goldengirl]

I think the answer is that they can't be quick Shaped, they're more resource intensive. The games say multiple times throughout that they can be Shaped, but that it's so intensive that it's easier to just let them reproduce naturally.

[Hyena of Ice]

Hyena, I've recently binged on 2-5 and I think it's clarified somewhere that shades aren't the same as the ghosts of the dead.

 

Not true. The text in the crystal cave in G2 says specifically:

There are shades haunting these chambers. Shades are insubstantial magical creatures. They have human form, but are not always ghosts. Sometimes, they form naturally and spontaneously in areas with high natural magic.

In other words, "shade" is a very broad category of essence-based beings with quasi-physical bodies. This includes ghosts of the dead, "essence shades" (essence constructs used to relay messages), thahd shades, natural (crystal) shades, etc. As for Thahd shades, I am aware that they are not thahd ghosts. They are thahds created in shade-form.

 

why has no-one quick-Shaped humans from scratch?

Presumably this would be quite forbidden, for multiple reasons. Though it is only explicitly stated that augmenting humans/shaping already-existing humans (presumably this includes the unborn as well, though Jeff goes out of his way to keep children out of his post-A3 games) is forbidden (it doesn't say anything about shaping one into existence)

 

I think the answer is that they can't be quick Shaped, they're more resource intensive. The games say multiple times throughout that they can be Shaped, but that it's so intensive that it's easier to just let them reproduce naturally.

That, too. Serviles are the same way.

[Elyssaen]

Ah, we're just talking about a misunderstanding of a sentence then. We agree: I was saying shades and ghosts aren't the same, which is true. But when you said "can" and "never souls of the dead", I misinterpreted you as meaning there were no actual souls of the dead. So yep, we're on the same page.

 

The resource intensive theory is interesting. I definitely picked up on a lack of quick-Shaping serviles in any scene. We know very inexperienced Litalia made a whole bunch but not if it took vats. But is it getting to into the metagame to ask why ur-drakons can be quick-Shaped but not serviles?

[Lilith]

The resource intensive theory is interesting. I definitely picked up on a lack of quick-Shaping serviles in any scene. We know very inexperienced Litalia made a whole bunch but not if it took vats. But is it getting to into the metagame to ask why ur-drakons can be quick-Shaped but not serviles?

 

I don't think it's ever directly addressed in-game, but a reasonable explanation would be that serviles need a significant amount of knowledge and judgement in order to do their jobs well, and that isn't easy to just shape into something. If you create a drakon, it can function just fine in combat with just its instincts and the orders you give it, but even serviles intended for manual labour would be a lot less efficient if they needed constant supervision from the shaper who created them.

[Goldengirl]

That's a good bit of analysis that explains why the main character's Drakons (or even Ur-Drakons) can't speak, do magic, or Shape, which is ubiquitous among natural born Drakons.

[Hyena of Ice]

I don't think it's ever directly addressed in-game, but a reasonable explanation would be that serviles need a significant amount of knowledge and judgement in order to do their jobs well, and that isn't easy to just shape into something. If you create a drakon, it can function just fine in combat with just its instincts and the orders you give it, but even serviles intended for manual labour would be a lot less efficient if they needed constant supervision from the shaper who created them.

This is actually bolstered by the text in the Ruined School in Geneforge 1, where it talks a bit about how serviles are raised and educated.

 

For additional evidence,

 

 

Even Shaper Monarch, the master of quick-shaping, doesn't create serviles. He kidnaps and then (psychically) lobotomizes them.