The constant remaking

[Ruttiger]

I've been playing spider web games for a long time. The exile series is easily one of my favourite series of all time. BoA I put so very many hours into. I'm sure I played every major release for it that graced the internet. I loved these games, because they had the ability to grip me. I was legit frightened for my struggling team as they descended the waterfall warrens. I was excited when my team in 3 first made it to the surface. It's not that the descriptions and conversation were always so engaging, it's that there were so many little details packed in the entire world was engaging. And of course, the game system itself was quality, letting me advance in a number of ways to power.

 

But here's my problem, with every new release I see the original diminished. Avernum truly added nothing game system wise. Maybe it was easier to fathom, but I've never needed or wanted easy in this context. Now we have Avadon, which is essentially another rewrite of the same material. That would be fine, except when I played I again saw a further dilution from what I saw in Avernum. Skill trees? Do we really need that?

 

If the core material is only being minorly reworked, in the end the only upgrade is a graphical one, since by my accounting the game system continues to be pulled back towards simplicity. It's incredibly disappointing to see that across the course of so many years so little improvement, particularly where I'd still probably enjoy playing the exile games.

[Valdain the King]

Jeff really deserves props and I agree with his motto but mostly because its an indie company. If it was big company that would be hard to do at least in my eyes. I think when he does it, maybe he makes it so a game which captured a large amount of people, the next time around might capture a new crowd or the people that couldnt get into the 1st deal. The idea is not for everyone but it makes sense to me.

 

I will say one thing though-Graphical improvements on my end do nothing. They're cool but I grew up on pokemon, golden axe and the works. Many of my friends say those games have bad graphics. I would say otherwise

[Lilith]

Remakes happen for three reasons: they take a lot less work to make than a new game, they produce relatively reliable sales while a new game is more of a gamble, and they make older games available in a form that runs well on newer computers without having to worry about compatibility issues. As long as there's a market for them and Jeff Vogel is still actively working in the games industry, you can probably expect that remakes of Spiderweb games will continue to be produced. Sorry if that's not the news you wanted to hear.

[Randomizer]

Avadon is a different than the other series. Some features that started out with Avadon were transferred to the Avernum remakes.

[Alorael at Large]

If you still enjoy the Exile series, by all means continue to play Exile! No one's taking that away from you. In fact, it's now available for free to anyone who can get it to run.

 

 

It's also disingenuous to talk about the remakes being graphical updates. That's certainly part, but there are huge mechanics changes too. You don't like them and think they're moving towards simplicity. You don't have to like them to acknowledge that they may be to someone else's tastes. I prefer Avernum to Exile and have since its release. I still prefer Avernum's stat system, honestly, but the Avernum remakes have better combat.

 

—Alorael, who also notes that you praise the writing and worldbuilding. Well, that quite literally hasn't changed in the remakes, for the most part, and new Spiderweb games still run more on the strength of Jeff's writing than on anything else. The more things change, the more they stay the same?

[Kelandon]

But here's my problem, with every new release I see the original diminished. Avernum truly added nothing game system wise. Maybe it was easier to fathom, but I've never needed or wanted easy in this context. Now we have Avadon, which is essentially another rewrite of the same material. That would be fine, except when I played I again saw a further dilution from what I saw in Avernum. Skill trees? Do we really need that?

I think you may be a little off-base here. (And I'm going to assume that when you say "Avadon," you mean A:EftP, because Avadon is not a remake of anything.) The point of the remakes has never been to make them easier. The point has been to improve their compatibility with newer Macs and to create a consistent look-and-feel throughout Spiderweb's games (the Geneforge look-and-feel, or at least it originated there). It was necessary to remake Exile when Apple dropped Classic mode, and to remake Avernum when Apple dropped Rosetta. Granted, the remakes weren't perfectly timed with those developments, but the writing was on the wall, so I think the remakes were driven in part by those changes.

 

I can understand being frustrated with the remakes because you're not getting much in the way of new writing (which is really where Spiderweb stands out in my opinion), but, to be fair, the remakes aren't the majority of Spiderweb's output. By sometime in the next year or two, Jeff will have remade Exile 1-3 twice and Nethergate once. At the same time, he will also have released Avernum 4-6, Geneforge 1-5, and Avadon 1-3. That's 7 remakes and 11 new games in about 15-ish years. It's worth keeping some perspective.

 

And, to be fair (again), the remakes have changed the graphics, the game mechanics, and the engine. These are real changes. I don't think it's accurate to say that the game mechanics have been simplified; A:EftP deleted some things but added others (such as traits). The net effect seems to me at least to be a set of mechanics about as complex and interesting as what I've seen in Exile or the original Avernum. You may not like the new game mechanics, but that's a different complaint than that they're being dumbed down.

 

So really your complaint boils down to the fact that Spiderweb has spent a little less than half of its time over the past ~15 years remaking some games to change the graphics, game mechanics, and engine in ways that aren't particularly aesthetically appealing to you. That's fair, and I agree in part; I quit halfway through Avernum 2: Crystal Souls and may not finish it. But my reaction is more a shrug than anything else. I probably will skip a remake or two, but Spiderweb is still putting out plenty of new stuff, and I'm looking forward to Avadon 3.

 

If Spiderweb really does decide to remake Geneforge, as is rumored right now, then I have to admit that I'm pretty skeptical. But I'll wait and see.

[Brainless Void]

 

If Spiderweb really does decide to remake Geneforge, as is rumored right now, then I have to admit that I'm pretty skeptical. But I'll wait and see.

 

And all of this time I thought all the mods were Jeff's guardian angels. LOL

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Not all angels are on the side of good

[Slawbug]

lolololangelfishinglololol

[Brainless Void]

lolololangelfishinglololol

 

What does this even supposed to mean? LOL

[Necris Omega]

Angel with an angle? ...

 

Anyways, I never mind the remakes, and in fact think they provide an interesting study into how the industry has evolved with time. This isn't someone remaking something, this is the exact same guy remaking something, minimizing the variables involved.

 

I guess my only complaint is that I really do have to side with the notion that, overall, the games have been dumbed down. Yes, yes, I know, one man's "dumbing down" is another man's "streamlining", but even in just the item system things have become progressively simpler. No more alchemy, a comparably paltry number of spells, graphics that have traded technology for art and diversity... I mean, don't think it's all sour grapes - I love how much more developed the "warrior" archetype has become since those days, but taken as a whole... if you find the phrase "dumbed down" to be too insulting, perhaps a better way to put it would be a loss of depth and detail.

 

But maybe it's just that it's always easier to see and complain about losses than all one has gained.

[Brainless Void]

Now Im starting to wonder how someone who played the remakes first then switched to the older games (i.e. playing A:EFTP, then Avernum 1, the E1.) would feel.

[Randomizer]

Now Im starting to wonder how someone who played the remakes first then switched to the older games (i.e. playing A:EFTP, then Avernum 1, the E1.) would feel.

Lousy interface, having to record things because there is no quest log, and really small window for Exile version.

[Lilith]

also getting hopelessly lost and starving to death a lot

 

i mean in a sense that was just part of the experience of the game but it's not like making it more accessible was an unalloyed evil

[Jerakeen]

A lot of it is improving balance and eliminating exploits, making the games more accessible and less opaque. Which is good. But I've been playing BoA for the first time in a long time, and I have to say that I had missed some of those crazy mechanics. Fortunately, they still exist.

[Kennedy]

Actually I'm rather looking forward to the upcoming remake of "Ruined World". This is likely Spiderweb's largest game (in sense of the world) it has ever made and I'm quite excited to see what they've done with it and any new enhancements.

[Goldengirl]

Here's hoping some of the more generic details of Valorim get filled out a bit...

 

Although there certainly was a certain charm to the giant sibling-merchant class servicing the whole continent, all named "Merry" by unimaginative parents.

[Tyranicus]

Surely the various Provisioners can get actual names.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Surely the various Provisioners can get actual names.

actually that was usually the sign that there wasn't much to the town, so no need to linger

[Thynar]

While I look forward to Avernum 3: Wuined Rorld, I am sad that the two remakes of Avernum thus far do not feature doors that can be closed.

I hope that other 'features' that the game had will not be cut. For example, Avernum 3 had horses, and events that happen over time.

Towns slowly get destroyed or worn down over time, and a major story event takes place after 120 in-game days.

I could see this potentially being merged to occur with quests as to streamline the experience, but I personally feel that it would detract from the charm that the original game had.

A lot of the spells and customization options have already been slimmed down, such as the skill-trees in the newer Avernums, rather than a list of points whom even equate to each other if you get enough, so I'm not entirely hopeful for this.

[Brainless Void]

What I want too coming is the option to fall off ledges and the self inflicted damage of bashing doors. Sometimes, there are some days when we are really suicidal...

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Not getting what you want is part and parcel with small coding shops. They don't have to cater to you, because there aren't enough of you to build up a groundswell of support that would change their economics to the degree that they have to listen. But a large company with a large following? It's fairly simple for a vocal minority to make a huge deal over some small detail and through the use of the company's own social media force them to change their plans.

 

tl, dr; Jeff's not afraid of hurting your feelings.

[Raf]

I played the original back as a teen, when I was 14 - 15 years. I don't remember much details of it (it's been 15 - 16 years), but I was excited to see these games reappearing in a new form. Got them all, the whole shebang: Avernum, Geneforge, Avadon, Nethergate, ... . I'm quite fan of playing this sort of games in windowed mode, not full screen, and was kinda disappointed that most didn't allow that. Thank god (or Jeff, as he coded it in) Avernum 2: Crystal Souls does allow it!

 

I ended up trying the first Exile remake, and it kinda just didn't feel right. It kinda rubbed me the wrong way, for some reason. Still can't put my finger on it why. I then tried Geneforge, and it indeed felt like a dumbed-down version of the Exile games I played and loved as a kid.

 

Then later on, Avernum 1 got remade, and I got that game. Played it... and played it til I finished all quests, got all endings, and all. I just loved it, just as much as dumb little me loved the originals! The moment I walked out of town, vague memories came back, like: "Oh yeah, there's a cave there. And that town, I remember that!" I didn't care about mechanics not being like the original or whatever. I just enjoyed the game, and was surprised about the amount of depth that went into the world.

 

Now, a year later, I'm playing Avernum 2: Crystal Souls. I'm loving it even more than I loved Avernum 1: Escape from the Pit. No idea why (well, maybe partially due to the windowed mode ), but it just rubs me the right way, even moreso than Avernum 1: EftP. Again, I don't care if it's a front-to-back copy of the original or not. I just enjoy the world, and the depth that is in the game. I'm enjoying exploring, finding new, random stuff, walking into traps then fighting my way out, planning my quests ("So I need to go there. Let's see what quests are there, and what quests from here that require something from there"), and figuring out how the hell I can get back to the Waterfall Warrens (any tips are more than welcome! :grin: ).

 

In the end, that's what these games are about. They're not about how close they are to the original. They're worlds, where nearly every character and place has their history, where places have a history of interactions between them, and where enough [censored] is hitting the fan to keep you busy. In other words: they're not just games, but entire worlds to mess around in!

[gem helper]

I am a huge, huge fan of Exile 2, and kind of a partisan of the original series (one of my primary games growing up was Blades of Exile, after all), but I have been cautious about recommending it, or the Exile series, to friends. I do find the mechanics more generally satisfying, and absolutely have a powerful aesthetic affinity for the old graphics.

 

But I've had to recognize that the way I came to know and love the series was wholly contingent on how I first encountered it. Me and the first boy I had a crush on bonded over playing Exile 1 together (and in retrospect we were completely terrible at it, constantly starving to death). What I read of its dialogue and events stuck with me hard, and Exile 2 was an improved version of that experience. It hit me at the exact time I was capable of understanding the plot and themes - 10 or so. Having gotten the demo on AOL, I was served an old 1.x version rather than the 2.x versions with the updated graphics set. (This separates me from even a lot of other people who grew up thinking of E2 as one of the best games they'd ever played. And that's fine!)

 

There's a primal magic to all of it, a sort of itch being scrached, that wouldn't be there for my friends even if the version I played could be trivially delivered to them. (It's a hell of a jury-rig.) They're not children figuring out what spells and items work best from trial and error, or PC-exclusive kids stepping into a slightly foreign and strikingly pretty visual dialect. The combat is liable to be confusing and clunky, the graphics crude and dark.

 

But genuinely I think there are things to these games beyond childhood nostalgia. The writing is fantastic; the setting and plot are both pretty outside the beaten path, treating themes and including people that video games even now are kinda uncomfortable with. I think those things shine just as well in the remakes, and there might be a twinge of regret and an odd sense of loss to it, but they're what I recommend to friends. I am excited about the A2 remake because it is bringing something that I loved, something that was a big part of me being the person I am, to people who would not otherwise have played it.

 

That's kinda cool, you know? A part of me wishes the people I recommend A2:CS to - or the modern 10-year-olds saving coins and doing odd jobs to buy it - could cross the same river I did, but that's not really possible. The river they get to cross is still pretty nice.

[Chessrook44]

Personally playing through the remakes there were a few things that I was saddened to find weren't included, just because it helped with the immersion: Guardians and Secret Passages.

 

Guardians and Black Shades, frustrating as they were (especially if you had spellcasters), had a unique mechanic to them that you don't really see anywhere: Permanent invisibility that you had to work to find. Frustrating as they were, that moment where you finally figured out their exact location was always lovely.

 

Secret passages are still in the remakes sure, but I much prefer the "push your head against the wall" method. It feels more natural to go "Huh, I think there's something in here, let me check the walls", and to accidentally stumble into one is a lovely bit of discovery.

 

The being able to jump down ledges, that was mentioned above, is also a nice thing to have that helps with immersion, and being able to kill small weak minions without having to constantly enter combat made the game move much more smoothly.

 

Unfortunately, I realize that the entire reason these weren't included was because of the change in movement controls. Because you move by clicking in a spot and not moving in a direction, you can't bash into a wall, enter an occupied space, or jump down a ledge.

[Kelandon]

I don't know that I think the consequence is lack of "immersion," per se, but I do miss all three of those things. The A3 engine was kind of crap, so I'm looking forward to the remake of that, but A1 and A2 were good enough on their own that little things like these three become things that I miss in the remakes (because I'm not distracted by how much better the engine is, as I expect to be in the A3 remake).