Shades physics

[Upon Mars.]

Hi. I'm still working on the project of writing a fanfic and I was wandering: Is there a way to make shades scientifically plausible?

[Lilith]

in real-world science or geneforge science?

 

if the former, probably not

if the latter, then they seem to be made out of essence that kind of takes form and hangs around after somebody's death

[Hobo Elf]

Necromancy is a real thing in Geneforge and it is banned by the Shapers, so my guess is that the ghosts are more than just essence echoes of people, although I don't remember if there were any flavor texts that explained them. It's possible that it is a taboo subject exactly because the Shapers do not understand it on a deeper level, meaning that there may not be any scientific explanation for it. Shapers are very touchy when it comes to things they can't control or understand.

[Upon Mars.]

Well, I was considering a plausible real world explanation for magic and Shades in the world of geneforge, even if it goes so far to change the concept of the shades as immaterial creatures. Does any one sort of chemical or physical processes are at work in gene sequencing? Is there a way to let's say make magic a little more realist in the world of geneforge without creating new rules of physic? (I'm willing to compromise)

[Alorael at Large]

None of the magic in Geneforge is at all realistic. The best you could plausibly come up with without invoking technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic is highly advanced genetic engineering to create entirely new forms of life, and it would look nothing like shaping and could not plausibly produce, say, fire- or ice-breathing velociraptors.

 

—Alorael, who if anything would remove the genes from Geneforge and keep that inaccurate and unnecessary nod to science out of the way of a neat but entirely fantasy conceit.

[Hyena of Ice]

A few shades are actual ghosts-- Tithian or Tithius in the Acidic Valley in G3 for example. Most shades are the result of essence either from a human/creation *usually a powerful vlish* or from a conglomeration of raw essence that takes humanoid form (the shades in the mines in G2 for example)

 

None of the magic in Geneforge is at all realistic. The best you could plausibly come up with without invoking technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic is highly advanced genetic engineering to create entirely new forms of life, and it would look nothing like shaping and could not plausibly produce, say, fire- or ice-breathing velociraptors.

 

—Alorael, who if anything would remove the genes from Geneforge and keep that inaccurate and unnecessary nod to science out of the way of a neat but entirely fantasy conceit.

 

You could also go the paraphysics route that some of the ghost chasers and harmless saucer cults (e.g. Ashtar Command) proclaim. The former claim that souls are made out of electromagnetic energy, just like auras and chi/ki/qi. The latter claim that there are "energy light beings" which are far more advanced than humans and not tempted by the sins of the flesh. They claim that these lifeforms consist of living electromagnetic energy.

Save the alien thing (which is still incredibly unlikely), none of this is even plausible.

[Spukrian]

Shades consist of essence. If you come up with a plausible explanation for essence, then shades will be easy to explain as well. Essence is however difficult to explain however, at least if you want to keep the laws of physics intact. E.g. Shapers store essence in their bodies, how do they do this without gaining size and mass yet they are able to create beings larger and heavier than themselves? So you might have to make some pseudoscientific stuff up.

[Upon Mars.]

Shades consist of essence. If you come up with a plausible explanation for essence, then shades will be easy to explain as well. Essence is however difficult to explain however, at least if you want to keep the laws of physics intact. E.g. Shapers store essence in their bodies, how do they do this without gaining size and mass yet they are able to create beings larger and heavier than themselves? So you might have to make some pseudoscientific stuff up.

 

I never quite understood the mecanics of storing essence in the body. In the fanfic I just regard it being something you can "Stuff" into a jar, pod or a device called an essence thrower.

 

In regard to actual Shaping and essence, would it be plausible if;

 

-essence is a self replicating substance which can build complex chains of proteins and other lifestuffs

-shaping occurs either randomly (throught the use of poisons, solvants, chemical reactions, heat or radiation), making the shaping the simpliest of creatures even in the best possible circumstances a randomly act (which makes power canisters all the more important).

-shaping occurs when living tissues are in contact essence and a catalyst which triggers the production of living tissues by essence.

 

[priumcyaes]

I've always waved it away with "magic is just science's weird cousin who lives in the basement". Thought of essence more as energy than a physical matter, but I dunno. Handwaveium and suspension of disbelief has been helpful.

 

I mean, you could consider shaping a science, of sorts. A chemist with the ability to use magic would probably be able to replicate acid shower or searer (with some effort). In comparing Shaping with modern science, there might be some similarities (plus, it's always been said that Shaping school is brutal and only the best become shapers. Complex stuff they were learning; maybe some of it was anatomy and chemistry by another name).

 

Canisters alter genetics and ability, I think (don't quote me on this; it's been a while since I've played any Geneforge games). They were described as a sort of "mini-geneforge". The geneforge itself rewrites you (and in the case of the GF5 protag it restores you), and the GF4 protag was supposedly horrified by the DNA spirals seen inside of some machine/scope near the end of the game. I don't think that they knew what germs, were, though? Or that this knowledge was just coming into effect around GF5.

[Hyena of Ice]

They know about larger microbes such as certain species of fungi, and probably know at least a bit about other colony-forming microbes (you know, ones that form colonies big enough that you can see the mass with the naked eye-- though they would likely mistake these for some sort of fungus) They'd definitely have to know about toxic algae as well, since a lot of those aren't actually very small organisms.

 

Bare minimum, they'd be at the toxemia-theory-of-disease level (outdated 19th century theory that disease was caused by the toxic byproducts of decaying matter such as compost, rotting meat, and pus-- also fit with the miasma theory of disease, which was used to explain why people get malaria, encephalitis, dengue fever, and other diseases near stagnant water-- germ theory of disease made the toxemia theory obsolete.) Esp. since poison curing spells appear to target disease as well (game mechanics wise)

[Upon Mars.]

Shades consist of essence. If you come up with a plausible explanation for essence, then shades will be easy to explain as well.

 

Well having given already a definition of it, I find Shades being the most complicated of creations to explain; I've tried plasma as an explanation, but the science behind this would make really hard to maintain and would very improbable.

If essence was filled with an advanced form of nanotechnology, shades might be plausible, but that wouldn't explain how ghosts fit or think in the world of geneforge. I have great doubts that a civilisation with the technology of that of the early Shapers would be able to create ethereal thinking beings out of a nanotech base without computers, machinery and technology centuries ahead of ours. Thinking without a stable nervous system causes me also another problem; how do you get information as complex as ideas, rational thought ( of sorts) and other forms of responses to internal and external stimuli without a stable network of connections such as nerves.

[Spukrian]

Well having given already a definition of it, I find Shades being the most complicated of creations to explain; I've tried plasma as an explanation, but the science behind this would make really hard to maintain and would very improbable.

I assume you mean plasma in the biological sense?

 

If essence was filled with an advanced form of nanotechnology, shades might be plausible, but that wouldn't explain how ghosts fit or think in the world of geneforge. I have great doubts that a civilisation with the technology of that of the early Shapers would be able to create ethereal thinking beings out of a nanotech base without computers, machinery and technology centuries ahead of ours. Thinking without a stable nervous system causes me also another problem; how do you get information as complex as ideas, rational thought ( of sorts) and other forms of responses to internal and external stimuli without a stable network of connections such as nerves.

Nanotechnology is how I make sense of it in my head. As for the shades having information, sentience, etc without a brain I just assume that the shade makes a imperfect "copy" of the original mind and the nanotechnology itself (nanites or whatever) acts as the nerve system.

 

As for them being centuries ahead of us.... well, the Shapers had magic, which certainly helped. So I guess it depends on what you think magic should be and how the Shapers learned it.

[Upon Mars.]

I assume you mean plasma in the biological sense?

 

No as a highly ionized gas; as if the shades were like thinking candles.

 

 

Nanotechnology is how I make sense of it in my head. As for the shades having information, sentience, etc without a brain I just assume that the shade makes a imperfect "copy" of the original mind and the nanotechnology itself (nanites or whatever) acts as the nerve system.

 

Aye, but in geneforge shades are described as part alive and part magical. Perhaps as you've said essence tends to replicate both memories and genetic material from scratch. And as stated in the posts above I could make a Shade as essentially some form of golem, with components within the essence.

 

However it still doesn't fit with the idea of ghosts within the world of Geneforge, though I've just made the assumption that Shades are like ghosts, save that shades are not made from dead material.

[Hyena of Ice]

In Fantasy D&D 3x terms, Shades are either incorporeal undead or incorporeal... aberrations?

In either case, the best comparison to anything paranormal would be the whole "ghosts, psychic projections, life energy/ki/chi/qi/auras, and the human soul are made of EMPs *electromagnetic fields*" Along with the mind control beams from the gub'ment weather control machine (which also uses EMPs to control our weather-- oh, and it's also an earthquake machine, which causes earthquakes by sending EMPs between the tectonic plates. Oh, and you know the "theraputic touch"-- where the quacks situate their palms a few inches above the subject's body? Yeah, that involves manipulating the chi/aura/electrical field of the subject's body to like-- speed healing or something like that.) That only covers half of the pseudoscience involving electromagnetic fields (I didn't even cover ley lines/parralels, and their supposed ties to both the Oregon Vortex and spontaneous human combustion, or the people who claim that directed energy weapons took out the Twin Towers, which they visually hid with a gianormous hologram-- which also used an EMP.)

 

Essence would likely be something different, but Jeff based it off of the rules of electromagnetism in "paraphysics".

 

Really, if you want to get to what Jeff has based shades off of, it would be this. Just like Jeff based the Vahnatai off of the hollow-earth aliens in conspiracydom, non-subversive saucer cults, and new-age religions. (in fact, Avernum itself is inspired by the Hollow Earth urban legends, and myths, and Jules Verne novel.)

 

Of course, you still have to ask yourself in-game-wise how it's possible to punch a shade in the face if it's incorporeal and thus has no mass. I suppose you could use the claim that shapers and outsider mages can touch them by channeling essence into their weapons/attacks, but that still doesn't account for how a Fyora can bite a shade.

[Upon Mars.]

Since I'm trying to get the physics behind shades without going pseudo-scientific; I'll have to make Shades not ethereal, not some form of plasma based life-form, but stone solid. Thanks guys!

[Hyena of Ice]

You can't even get the physics of Geneforge without going pseudo-scientific. For example, when a shaper makes a creation, they essentially create matter out of thin air using energy alone. It can't be explained away with "they take the elemental building blocks from the ground and air", either, since they can be created in a concrete building without taking a chunk out of the floor. You can't explain that away without directly violating the laws of physics. Just saying-- no offense.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

You could say that shaping is summoning ectoplasm from a parallel dimension. this should solve a lot of other issues also

[Hyena of Ice]

^^Yeah, but he wants something that isn't pseudoscientific. Which as I said, just isn't possible to do without rewriting a lot of the in-game descriptions of essence-- though the shade/essence problem isn't remotely as glaring as the shaping problem (creating matter from nothing), and you can't really use "they carry pouches of minerals and a lot of water" as that would require lugging around... a lot of resources. Just imagine lugging around enough reagents to create a drayk.

Summoning and teleportation is a problem as well, physics-wise.

[Spukrian]

when a shaper makes a creation, they essentially create matter out of thin air using energy alone

Except that it isn't energy, it's essence. So it isn't really creating new matter from nothing. But you're right that it violates the laws of physics as we know them.

[Upon Mars.]

If you thought that carrying reagents wa a problem: how do creations learn and are able to make complex tasks when they are like blank pages?

Essence isn't just any womb. Imagine having to summon a creature like a servile which has been birthed essence-wise. Most of them would suffer forms of lack of social stimuli etc. What about control? Who would be able to control a Drayk when it's nervous system isn't yet fully formed and it has to learn how to walk, talk in specific environments aka when there's nothing much to control? Even though creatures like crocodiles are known to have instinct some behaviors have to be learned in order to have a viable living organism. Battle alphas, ornks, serviles, thahds, servant minds and placental creatures pose a lot of problems to begin with.