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Avadon 2 Final impressions thread (Spoilers onboard!)


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Seeing a lot of final impressions and reviews at the forum lately and, since I've recently completed the game myself, I thought it would be cool to create a thread for posting the final impressions/reviews in one place without spoiler restraining. So, post your own if you feel in the mood ^_^

 

Let's start then; as always, I would like to say that I'm not exactly english fluent, so my apologies if this text becomes a grammar mess. I'll do my best.

 

Avadon 1 was my first spiderweb game. Despite some flaws, I became bewitched by the game, loving it as one of the best viodegame surprises I had in years. After some fiascos with Bioware, it was very refreshing to experience an incredibly well written game with an oldschool vibe so well implemented. So, after that, I wanted to experience more of Jeff's universe, and bought Avernum Eftp and the Geneforge saga. More or less, I loved them all (altough I must admit Avernum's rpg style is not exactly my cup of tea; I'm more inclined to Avadon or Geneforge). When Avadon 2 was finally in GoG, I purchased without blinking -my expectations were pretty high.

 

So, before trying to summarize my impressions, I'm going to say that I loved Avadon 2 as much as the first one. Without doubt, I've become a Spiderweb fan, and I will be around here looking for new games as long as it exist. So, despite the complains and criticism that I'm going to present, I really, really liked the game.

 

The Good things

  • The plot general idea and cadence are better than in the first one; some nice twists here and there, and also better presentation in almost every aspect. The reverted image of Redbeard in the sequel is a fresh surprise after the godlike aspect Avadon1 inserted. Also, how your character rises from a low scout to a legendary Hand feels much better than the "Miranda plaything" it turns to be in Avadon 1. The Corruption and Tawon parts were specially interesting.
  • As always, boss battles were amazing. Despite some annoying scripts, they were always fun and challenging in the best sense. The four optional bosses were way better than Zephirine, Belloch and Mr.Redbeard-souljars inferno. The final moments with that wind infernal were specially satisfying.
  • Great characters; the cast of companions is both interesting and creative. How the relations with them could turn to be...well; I never expected that outcome with Yannick turned into some kind of deranged chaotic wizard. Also, their personal quests, despite ones being better than others, always put some strong moral choice that made me think and rethink the decision. Yhosiria quest, for example, it puts on the table not only your loyalty to Avadon, but also a sense of survival that is very interestingly resolved at the epilogue.
  • Tinkermages are very welcomed. Completely unexpected for me, also. I find them original and very, very fun to play. It also adds some flesh to Dharam, probably the less developed country in lore terms in Avadon 1. The idea of engineering crossbow turrets in the tide of battle is bold, but it results in a very creative and interesting tactic approach.
  • The sense of urge, that feeling of Avadon being in critical times, with new active parties directly present, like the Hanvar council envoys, trying to hinder the black fortress... all the ambience felt very natural and a logical consequence of the first Avadon; that remind me of Genforge games, since despite this pesimistic feeling about the "lawful" forces, you can actually align with them and make the difference; in that regard, the epilogue does a great work giving the feeling that our choices mattered.
  • The confrontation with Miranda, following her through The Corruption. One of the most irritating aspects from Avadon 1 ending was the inability to confront her to the end. So, that fight at the core was very satisfying. It also concurs with one of the most interesting plot parts, where the "grey" morals that usually decorate Spiderweb's games reaches an intense conundrum.

 

The not so good things

  • As always, the absence of OST. It really hurts everything. I would really, really, really love to see a Spiderweb game with OST some day.
  • Despite the fact that the corruption and its expanse in plot terms were welcomed, I cannot stop thinking that it has been a lost opportunity. The core part, with the different visions that turn to be ¿false? illusions, and conclude with the exact same text lines (something about discovering corruption's origin) felt a bit disappointing. I understand that the ambivalence was at play here... but I somewhat feel it could have been much more exploited.
  • Silke was welcomed; I think that all in all, the romance experiment was well developed and handled...until you reach the climatic point. I understand why Silke is only romanceable if you become a traitor, but I didn't liked it. I would have appreciatted the chance to have a romance while being loyal to Avadon.
  • The level cap kills one of the most fun parts about rpgs. I didn't liked it in Avadon 1, and I don't like it in Avadon 2. Even worse in this sequel, since it is attainable much earlier than before. More or less, I was at level 30 at Konstina's final quest. I think Jeff should look for some kind of alternative for this; just stoping the player progression really hinders the experience. I understand the benefits for doing it from a developer's eye... but for players it just feels weird, adding monotony to what it should be the climatic parts.
  • The absence of older Hands from Avadon 1 feels... weird. Just a vague mention from Miranda, and complete silence from everyone else. I'm not saying that future Avadon games should become a cameo party, but it would be a nice surprise to know what happened to some of the characters, not that they just vanished from Avadon's universe.
  • I understand why Redbeard is going to a secondary role for future Avadon games... but I really think he still has a lot of potential to become one of these legendary videogame characters. I really hope Jeff does not completely abandon him. One of the few things that I don't liked from the epilogue is Redbeard's fate... he just disappears or dies?
  • Trash mobs are way too abudant. This gets specially irritating since the level cap is reached way too soon, too, and these fights become terribly monotonous.

For the moment, that is all I can remember. I would add more things later, since I have the feeling I'm forgetting something important .

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[*]Tinkermages are very welcomed. Completely unexpected for me, also. I find them original and very, very fun to play. It also adds some flesh to Dharam, probably the less developed country in lore terms in Avadon 1. The idea of engineering crossbow turrets in the tide of battle is bold, but it results in a very creative and interesting tactic approach.

 

There are a couple of pieces of dialogue that imply that tinkermages aren't literally building the turrets from scratch mid-combat, but that they carry around kits of some sort that they can just fold out and set up.

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There are a couple of pieces of dialogue that imply that tinkermages aren't literally building the turrets from scratch mid-combat, but that they carry around kits of some sort that they can just fold out and set up.

 

In addition, there's that loading screen art that depicts a couple of soldiers and a tinkermage carrying a bolt flinger about to be ambushed by Wyldrylm rebels.

 

Dikiyoba.

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While I have no in-game support for this, the way I saw Tinkermages is that they employ a different kind of magic than do sorcerers. It is not too dissimilar from the kind employed by the Shapers in Geneforge for crafting life, except that they can use magic abilities to summon mechanical constructs into existence or manipulate existing ones. The Tinkermage needs to have a working design for something, and more complex designs require greater focus on the part of the Tinkermage.

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I'm inclined to believe all the PC from Ava1 got killed while challenging Redbeard - either he killed them directly, or they just died of boredom during the endless battle. Their total absence is a little odd, consider Jeff had no problem using PC allies Greta and Alwan as NPCs in later Geneforge games.

 

Is there any way to maximize the random conversational interludes with your party members in Ava2? So far, aside from Khalida's seizures, not much stands about any of them (and the seizures aren't exactly a defining personality trait, just a handicap). I'm hoping for more vivid characterization at some point.

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Is there any way to maximize the random conversational interludes with your party members in Ava2?

 

Not exactly "random" but the only thing I know is to hit them up in Avadon itself between quests; they do add more than they did in the first game. I thought my conversation with the blademistress (after I carried out her quest but did not give her the "happy ending" she wanted) was quite poignant.

 

Other than that there's guessing which character will have the most to say in a given area and bringing that one along...the shadowwalker is likeliest to comment on the military/tactical side of anything, the sorcerer on Tawon ruins, etc. While I always want to see more of this dialogue, I thought the game did a pretty good job of letting you understand these characters' top priorities and personal weaknesses.

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I think of the Tinkermage's constructs as rickety, jerry-rigged affairs, held together by magic and spit. Which is why they only last a few rounds, and fall apart if the TM stops concentrating on them (ie dies). Making permanent independent turrets would require advanced knowledge, better equipment than could easily be toted around, and of course the absence of anything in the immediate vicinity that is actively trying to kill you while you work.

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I'm inclined to believe all the PC from Ava1 got killed while challenging Redbeard - either he killed them directly, or they just died of boredom during the endless battle. Their total absence is a little odd, consider Jeff had no problem using PC allies Greta and Alwan as NPCs in later Geneforge games.

Redbeard mentions once that he gave one other the opportunity that he's giving the PC in Avadon 2 (to choose a new position). This appears to be a reference to the PC from Avadon 1. But, given that the PCs from Avadon 1 are nowhere to be found, death in combat does seem plausible (that is, the PC was given the choice, and the PC chose to fight Redbeard).

 

Not sure how to interpret this, really. It's also odd that it's clearly Nathalie in one of the loading screens, but she appears nowhere in the game.

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Redbeard mentions once that he gave one other the opportunity that he's giving the PC in Avadon 2 (to choose a new position). This appears to be a reference to the PC from Avadon 1. But, given that the PCs from Avadon 1 are nowhere to be found, death in combat does seem plausible (that is, the PC was given the choice, and the PC chose to fight Redbeard).

 

Not sure how to interpret this, really. It's also odd that it's clearly Nathalie in one of the loading screens, but she appears nowhere in the game.

 

Hmm. Well, if you fight Redbeard in Avadon 1 and the fight goes on for long enough, he'll give you the opportunity to surrender and return to serving Avadon, but all of your companions who helped you fight him will be sentenced to death. It's possible that that's what happened, I suppose.

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In addition to the lack of encountering Nathalie, I have some issues with that picture being her. While it is certainly a sorcerer with a wounded arm. Nathalie was white blonde not yellow blonde and her face was substantially thinner in her portrait in Avadon 1. Also while her quest implied some long term damage to her arm, she was fully using it for the rest of the game. While certainly hair style and expression can change, the picture in Avadon 2 does not, to me anyway, look like Nathalie plus two years. The pictures in Avadon 1 G137 and G427 are quite different from the picture in Avadon G173. The hair color is closer to that of the PC Sorcerer, but she is even skinnier than Nathalie.

 

While I would have like to see the old characters again, I believe that they all left Avadon right after the immediate mess of the attack was completed. None of them were loyal to Avadon, and their loyalty to the PC would only last so long, especially if the PC was killed on some sort of mission.

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Redbeard mentions once that he gave one other the opportunity that he's giving the PC in Avadon 2 (to choose a new position). This appears to be a reference to the PC from Avadon 1. But, given that the PCs from Avadon 1 are nowhere to be found, death in combat does seem plausible (that is, the PC was given the choice, and the PC chose to fight Redbeard).

 

This makes sense. I think he deliberately wrote it in such a way as to be compatible with the PC doing anything except killing Redbeard (which for most players was somewhere between "too hard and too tedious" to "impossible"). But I think it's equally possible for that bunch to be alive and simply off screen.

 

Consider this - a major part of Spiderweb game "reality" is that a large part of any population you see is simply invisible. I never went through the towns and counted the population, but the numbers of people are such that even large, thriving communities don't have a thousand inhabitants each, and I'm not sure they've got even a hundred. Yet they're also portrayed as rich enough to support the inns, merchants, palaces, and for that matter the money economy we encounter. I think that means there's a lot of population walking around that you don't see on the screen, because your interactions with them simply don't matter and would be way too tedious to program.*

 

If you count up the hearts you actually meet in Avadon, they wouldn't make a brigade staff, let alone a general staff for an army big enough to do what Avadon does. You get to meet the top figures yourself because you're involved in such important missions...but the numbers involved imply to me that there's a sizable hierarchy "off to the side," with multiple hearts and hands engaged in missions of which you know nothing, or even in Avadon itself but invisible for game purposes like most of the population. The PC and NPC's from the previous game could easily be there, so that whether they're dead or not is left ambiguous. If Avadon is only the few dozen people you see on screen, that's strange; but if there are thousands unseen, it makes a lot more sense.

 

______

*In Geneforge 2, I found it a little jarring that the Drakons were the only ones who stood and fought to the death in the villages I'd seen. Jarring because I'd already killed them all before I returned to the Shapers. But if you assume that the PC never interacts with more than a fraction of the people who are actually there...it makes a kind of sense.

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You are correct, there has to be far more people to support the economy that is indicated. For that matter, there has to be a lot more rooms in Avadon. While the dining facility might be big enough for the staff, the only rooms for hands seem to be the ones for the six characters, yet there has to be billeting for a whole bunch of hands, eyes, hearts and support staff.

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There is truth to all you are saying, but there's also the reality that Jeff has a penchant for NPC persistence - the highlight of this is probably Solberg, but numerous other NPCs show up time after time, game after game, in the Avernum and Geneforge games. Jeff's first experiments in NPC companions, Greta and Alwan of G3, went on to be central characters of G4 and significant figures of G5. And those are just the most prominent examples. If Jeff didn't frequently bring obscure NPCs back for sequels, the disappearance of the Ava1 NPCs wouldn't be notable. Given that he DOES have a record of doing it, though, it's more odd that they vanished, and I don't find the "They are just off-screen" satisfying.

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My current headcanon is that the PC from your last game tried to kill Redbeard, but only got to the point where he offers to allow you to live if you'll sacrifice all your companions and go into exile, before the player got fed up with the fight and said okay. He or she's now one of the nameless guards in Monitor Base C. (There's at least one shaman there, several sorceresses and plenty of warriors who might be shadowalkers or blademasters.)

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As I recall, the first Avernum trilogy made reference to previous PCs, but only in the same vague, elliptical way as Avadon 2 does. If I remember correctly, the canon was that the Avernum 1 party vanished (rumored to have escaped to the surface), and the Avernum 2 party stayed in Avernum, doing good deeds while the Avernum 3 party was on the surface.

 

So it's not all that odd that we get only the vaguest answers about the canon for the Avadon 1 PCs. It just would've been fun to see some of them again. Well, mainly Nathalie, really.

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I also picture Nathalie locking herself up in some tower. Maybe she claimed the huge tower from Khemeria. At any rate... I was expecting to see something about the old companions. Greta and Alwan were nice surprises back then when I played the Geneforge saga.

 

Maybe we can expect Nathalie as one of the optional super-hard battles in Avadon 3? That would be cool, and, also, a good excuse for justifying her presence. Nathalie makes a tower of horrors and uses Yannick as his mad-commander...mmm, the more I picture, the more I like it ^_^

 

Also, one thing I didn't mention earlier: I can count up to two allusions to Geneforge saga in Avadon -one place, don't remember where, that some weird goo turns to monsters, and the text says something about forbbiden magic that creates life. And, well, when Yannick speaks about the potential magic that the countless past civilizations could gather, he says something like "It's even possible that the old magic could create life!".

 

Also, it's possible that I'm seeing much more than what it is really there...but the faint allusions turn the idea of Geneforge being some kind of prequel for Avadon too attractive.

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Jeff's first experiments in NPC companions, Greta and Alwan of G3, went on to be central characters of G4 and significant figures of G5.

That they went on to become so important provided an easy escape route for the writer. Also helping is that they were only two and were already clearly on the way to being on opposite sides of the war from the start. There are more factors involved in keeping the four previous Hands around, especially if you want to preserve any ambiguity about the events at the end of the first game.

 

My current favored theory is that the PC and all companions failed to even reach Redbeard and were all killed in the defense of Avadon. But really, who knows? They could show up in Avadon 3. I'd be okay with that, too.

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And Shapers = Vahnatai, so the sequence is Avadon -> Geneforge -> Avernum. Right? Right.

 

Oooor, maybe the Shapers turned themselves into big machines with the help of tinkermages and all of them turned into the first reaper! Mass Effect is the sequel to Avadon! :D

 

Soooo, in fact, the sequence is Avernum -> Geneforge -> Avadon -> Mass Effect.

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As I recall, the first Avernum trilogy made reference to previous PCs, but only in the same vague, elliptical way as Avadon 2 does. If I remember correctly, the canon was that the Avernum 1 party vanished (rumored to have escaped to the surface), and the Avernum 2 party stayed in Avernum, doing good deeds while the Avernum 3 party was on the surface.

 

So it's not all that odd that we get only the vaguest answers about the canon for the Avadon 1 PCs. It just would've been fun to see some of them again. Well, mainly Nathalie, really.

Avernum 2 was very clear on the fate of the PCs from Avernum 1. Many of the NPCs talk about 'the great heroes' and comment on their sudden disappearance, and speculate on how they must have found a way back to the surface. Similarly, Avernum 3 is very clear on the fate of the PCs from Avernum 2. There's a plaque in their honor in Fort Emergence that states they are still serving in mainland Avernum--but since the Avernum 3 PCs' job is on the surface, they don't get to interact with the old Avernum 2 adventurers. The fate of the Avernum PCs is canon in a way that the Avadon 1 PCs don't get.

 

Dikiyoba definitely wishes there was concrete evidence of the fate of the Avadon 1 Hands (and for that matter, to meet one or two Hands in Avadon proper, so it feels fully staffed and it's not weird when you suddenly meet a few Hands late in the game who know all about you even though you've never heard anything about them).

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Considering that Redbeard is alive and well and in command of Avadon at the start of Ava2, I'm not sure what ambiguity about the ending of the first game one could possible hope to preserve.

 

After killing Redbeard, the Avadon 1 PC realised that public knowledge of a new Keeper's appointment would only further destabilise Avadon, and so impersonated Redbeard and ruled in his stead.

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After killing Redbeard, the Avadon 1 PC realised that public knowledge of a new Keeper's appointment would only further destabilise Avadon, and so impersonated Redbeard and ruled in his stead.

 

The Avadon 1 PC hides in a secret chamber above Redbeard's throne, manipulating his carefully preserved corpse Weekend at Bernie's-style using an elaborate set of marionette wires. You know how Redbeard sometimes looks like he's dozed off in Avadon 2? That's when the Avadon 1 PC is taking a bathroom break.

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Considering that Redbeard is alive and well and in command of Avadon at the start of Ava2, I'm not sure what ambiguity about the ending of the first game one could possible hope to preserve.

^This, especially considering how Redbeard and Mamora deal with those threats they get their hands on. (My Ava1 characters would have preferred death to a fate like Lexrem's, and none of them ever considered letting a companion die in exchange for Redbeard sparing them.)

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Considering that Redbeard is alive and well and in command of Avadon at the start of Ava2, I'm not sure what ambiguity about the ending of the first game one could possible hope to preserve.

"The absence of older Hands from Avadon 1", followed by about a dozen posts discussing what could have happened to them and how.

 

Avernum 2 was very clear on the fate of the PCs from Avernum 1. Many of the NPCs ... speculate

Not entirely clear, I think. :)

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Not entirely clear, I think. :)

It's very clear that the party disappeared. It's not explicitly said that they found a route to the surface, so you're free to come up with your own reason for their disappearance if you wish, but the game does push you toward the escape-to-the-surface conclusion--enough so that I knew that Avernum 1 featured a major quest involving finding a route to the surface just by playing Avernum 2. And Avernum 3 literally has signs in the starting town describing what happened to the previous PCs. It's hard to get much clearer than that short of actually meeting the PCs and asking questions about their lives for an hour.

 

Dikiyoba.

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The Avadon 1 PC hides in a secret chamber above Redbeard's throne, manipulating his carefully preserved corpse Weekend at Bernie's-style using an elaborate set of marionette wires. You know how Redbeard sometimes looks like he's dozed off in Avadon 2? That's when the Avadon 1 PC is taking a bathroom break.

 

This isn't the first time this has happened, either: Redbeard was actually killed only a few years after ascending to the position of Keeper. That's why he never appears to age, and why no amount of physical injury is enough to kill him (note that in the Avadon 1 Redbeard fight, it's explicitly mentioned that it's not any particular one of your attacks that finishes him off: he just runs out of oomph and drops dead on his own). If someone tries to assassinate Redbeard, and the current puppetmaster is sick of holding up the charade and thinks the potential replacement is worthy of the job, they'll drop down a note explaining everything and suggesting that the would-be assassin take over.

 

Redbeard seemed smarter and more alert back in Avadon 1, because there was a whole team of people working in shifts up there. Now they've quit and there's just one overworked Hand.

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This isn't the first time this has happened, either: Redbeard was actually killed only a few years after ascending to the position of Keeper. That's why he never appears to age, and why no amount of physical injury is enough to kill him (note that in the Avadon 1 Redbeard fight, it's explicitly mentioned that it's not any particular one of your attacks that finishes him off: he just runs out of oomph and drops dead on his own). If someone tries to assassinate Redbeard, and the current puppetmaster is sick of holding up the charade and thinks the potential replacement is worthy of the job, they'll drop down a note explaining everything and suggesting that the would-be assassin take over.

 

Redbeard seemed smarter and more alert back in Avadon 1, because there was a whole team of people working in shifts up there. Now they've quit and there's just one overworked Hand.

 

And Redbeard's mysterious disappearance at the end of Avadon 2? Well, at that point Redbeard's body was finally starting to physically fall apart beyond repair from repeated assassination attempts, plus simple wear and tear from being moved around so much (which is why he never leaves Avadon if he can help it -- well, that and the need to set up a new secret puppeteer's chamber above wherever he's being moved to). Whoever was operating Redbeard decided that the ruse had run its course: confidence in Avadon and Redbeard was low enough that public knowledge of a new Keeper couldn't make the situation any worse than it already was. And so, Redbeard disappeared: he retreated alone into his tower, and the infernal servants working up there walled his body in, never to be found.

 

it is genuinely eerie how much of the mystique around redbeard can be explained by this wacky fan theory i cooked up after three cuba libres

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I initially liked the corruption, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. It really seems more like it should be in an Avernum game or something. The appeal of Avadon is suppose to be its politics, but since the politics of the game are all so dry and kind of boring (I have a hard time telling the factions apart and what they believe--or caring about them when I can tell them apart), inserting a "Great RPG Evil" into the center of this seems like a cheap way to add drama.

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This isn't the first time this has happened, either: Redbeard was actually killed only a few years after ascending to the position of Keeper. That's why he never appears to age, and why no amount of physical injury is enough to kill him (note that in the Avadon 1 Redbeard fight, it's explicitly mentioned that it's not any particular one of your attacks that finishes him off: he just runs out of oomph and drops dead on his own). If someone tries to assassinate Redbeard, and the current puppetmaster is sick of holding up the charade and thinks the potential replacement is worthy of the job, they'll drop down a note explaining everything and suggesting that the would-be assassin take over....

 

In short, there is no Dread Pirate Redbeard...

 

JC - disagree on the Corruption. Firstly it isn't really a "Great RPG Evil" in and of itself; based on what the last golem-things tell us anyway, it's not going to expand and engulf the pact unless a human (like Miranda) makes it happen; and it acts in such a way as to prevent her from doing so (namely by letting you get in and stop her). It comes out less scary than it seems at first...something that can live and let live...leaving the human factions, as before, the real danger. It can't be conquered but it can be kept in check.

 

I thought the political choices in this game were a little better than in the last one...mainly because in this one I could see two or three viewpoints that made sense to me: (1) Loyalty to Avadon, A to Z, on the grounds the Pact needs it to survive; (2) Loyalty to the Pact and Avadon, but wanting to see Avadon held accountable to the civilian government (Hanvar's Council); (3) Loyalty to Avadon, but belief that Redbeard is too unstable and needs to step down or be replaced. And given that you're basically soldiers, not free-ranging adventurers, that's a pretty wide choice.

 

("Join Dheless and the Tawon to help them get revenge on the pact, and rebuild their empire," that doesn't work for me; "Join the rebellion, betray the pact, and weaken them for the Tawon conquest...so you can get a kiss from Silke," that doesn't work for me either.)

 

In the first game, your only options were pro- and anti-Redbeard, and I could not then, and cannot now, see why anyone would pick anti-Redbeard on principle. (Miranda made sense because she had a personal grudge, and decided her personal grudge was more important than keeping the peace or the Pact; but I saw nothing to bring the PC to this view.)

 

(btw, if as some have suggested Geneforge lies in the past of the world of Avadon...is it possible that Trajkov's people are from Svorgald? I don't remember if his country got named but I remembered walking away with the impression that they were vaguely Viking-like, as the Svorgaldians are...)

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I could see betraying Avadon to weaken the Pact and force them to negotiate with the Farlanders on fairer terms instead of ruling through brute force. That's admittedly a dangerous game to play, considering it's pretty clear that the Tawon would like their empire back if at all possible and not at all clear that that would be an improvement for anyone outside the Tawon. Still, it's at least a conceivable motive, and one that's consistent with most of the pro-rebel dialogue options in the endgame.

 

To me, one of the central questions of the Avadon series so far is: "to what extent does 'peace through superior firepower' actually work?" And everything we've seen so far suggests that in Lynaeus, it doesn't work out in the long run -- it didn't work for the Tawon Empire and now it's failing to work for the Pact. Give the Pact twice the army it's got and it'll just use it for further infighting and imperial overreach. If it's going to survive, it needs to go through a crisis big enough to shake up the philosophy it operates under -- which could also be a crisis big enough to destroy it altogether, but if things keep going as they are, one of those is going to come along sooner or later no matter what. The Stone Wall Beyond is crumbling, and arguably the most anyone can possibly do is minimise the number of people who are crushed as it falls.

 

In short: if it's true that the Pact as presently constituted is doomed, and will probably fall to some combination of revolution, invasion and civil war in the fairly near future no matter what anyone does, then working with the rebellion starts to make sense, both in terms of personal benefit and as damage control. And there's ample if not overwhelming evidence in-game to support the conclusion that the Pact is in fact doomed.

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(...)

 

In short: if it's true that the Pact as presently constituted is doomed, and will probably fall to some combination of revolution, invasion and civil war in the fairly near future no matter what anyone does, then working with the rebellion starts to make sense, both in terms of personal benefit and as damage control. And there's ample if not overwhelming evidence in-game to support the conclusion that the Pact is in fact doomed.

 

You know... during 2/3 of the game I had this feeling of impending doom for the pact, but as the plot unfolds, and you see the true extent of the rebellion -both wyldrim and tawon-, the farlanders threat turns to be less impressive than it seemed at first. They go from a mysterious and godlike smart bunch (Dheles) to a little band of overly dependent commandos. Despite Konstina's bragging and Dheles suposed brainpower, both are defeated or terribly scared.

 

I'm saying this because I think that given this set of events, what it truly seems to be killing the Pact are the internal affairs; if the scope of this "affairs" could be diminished, probably the pact and avadon would survive.

 

Then again, after playing Geneforge, seems clear that Jeff's intentions are similar to what the Shapers must endure during the saga.

 

Alberich: if Svorgald is what is left from Sholai people, what a sad outcome for them... I always perceived the Sholai as a refined society. And Svorgald, at least for what the codex says, it's more or less a dark version of Monkey Island pirate society.

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It's not explicitly said that they found a route to the surface, so you're free to come up with your own reason for their disappearance if you wish, but the game does push you toward the escape-to-the-surface conclusion--enough so that I knew that Avernum 1 featured a major quest involving finding a route to the surface just by playing Avernum 2.

So they made their escape... didn't bother to take anyone else along, return, or even write a letter... and somehow everyone (in a society that's maybe a half-step above the Stone Age in terms of technology and a world in which two dozen types of human-killing monsters roam the wilds between towns) knows what happened? I know that in RPGs rumors and ancient prophecies are generally regarded the most reliable sources of information, but I'm just too much a skeptic to take some cave cow herder's nth-hand news for truth.

 

And if they did escape and just leave everyone else to suffer wasting illness, early death, and terrible wine in Avernum, they're not exactly the most noble of heroes, no matter how many reputation points they earned.

 

And there's ample if not overwhelming evidence in-game to support the conclusion that the Pact is in fact doomed.

I'm really amazed at just how much the Pact states seem to resent each other. They've gone through a polar shift - they willingly joined the Pact to ward off the invasions of the Farland peoples, and now many of them are working with Farlanders (who now hate the people of the Pact more than ever) to undermine the Pact. Has anyone even mentioned the idea of reworking the Pact through negotiation? Or anything that's even slightly reasonable?

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The Pact was a victim of its own success. It was established for the singular purpose of keeping the Farlands down. It succeeded to such an extent that many citizens of the Pact do not perceive a threat from the Farlands anymore and therefore do not see a need for the Pact. The Pact does not appear to have done much to bring the people of the Pact together. They did create the free road system which is a measure that theoretically would help with mobility and therefore interaction between the people of the different states, but that interaction just does not seem to have happened.

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I could see betraying Avadon to weaken the Pact and force them to negotiate with the Farlanders on fairer terms instead of ruling through brute force. That's admittedly a dangerous game to play, considering it's pretty clear that the Tawon would like their empire back if at all possible and not at all clear that that would be an improvement for anyone outside the Tawon. Still, it's at least a conceivable motive, and one that's consistent with most of the pro-rebel dialogue options in the endgame...The Stone Wall Beyond is crumbling, and arguably the most anyone can possibly do is minimise the number of people who are crushed as it falls.

 

In short: if it's true that the Pact as presently constituted is doomed, and will probably fall to some combination of revolution, invasion and civil war in the fairly near future no matter what anyone does, then working with the rebellion starts to make sense, both in terms of personal benefit and as damage control. And there's ample if not overwhelming evidence in-game to support the conclusion that the Pact is in fact doomed.

 

There's some truth in that or at least it's arguable...but the problem is that, if the stone wall falls, the individual nations are all doomed and even more so. If the Tawon want not only their empire, but revenge for their satellite status, they're out to conquer and humiliate, and weakness (you fought yourselves into exhaustion against this short-sighted rebellion, thank you, please do that anytime) will simply be an invitation to them...unless your point is that the PC sees Tawon conquest as inevitable and simply wants to hasten the process. Even there, though, there's the risk the sides will fight each other into exhaustion, leaving themselves more vulnerable than ever.

 

And if these countries aren't united (or they are but are depleted from civil wars followed by wars of conquest), Svorgald will keep raiding individual countries, being simply grateful not to have Avadon or their unified forces to deal with. The titans, wretches, and dragons will have the same incentives to raid and loot, and there will be less force to resist them.

 

For now, at least, none of the threats the Pact countries face will be any less once the Pact crumbles; that's why I don't see the rebellion as any kind of "damage control." Even if the Wyldrylm reunites with its Farland cousins in Khemeria, it will share borders (or, in the case of Svorgald, coasts) with most of its old enemies, and (I think) be weaker than before...

 

Miranda, I understand, would answer all this with an "I don't care; I want my revenge."

 

(Looking at the geography makes me think that may be how Svorgald gets important in game #3. Dheless convinces some of Avadon's enemies to really work together, instead of raiding and invading from four or five directions in poorly coordinated ways...so the Svorgald use their ships to ferry wretches and titans to Khemeria for a surprise deep thrust right at Avadon itself...)

 

DP - I quite agree. I don't remember much of anything about the Sholai so I could be off base. For the rest, I suppose the question is whether internal Pact tensions can be reduced while the Pact retains its current form...or if this confederation has to run to a different extreme, either a unified government (maybe a monarchy supplied by an Avadon coup?), or fragmentation followed by conquest. I'd like to think the Pact can survive in its current form because it's the alternative I'd most like to live in.

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I'm really amazed at just how much the Pact states seem to resent each other. They've gone through a polar shift - they willingly joined the Pact to ward off the invasions of the Farland peoples,

 

I question how much of that "willingly" may actually be the case. Consider that Hanvar's Council is named for the individual who was Overlord of Holklanda at the time, and then consider the possibility that the Pact might not so much have been willingly entered into as presented as a "do this or else".

 

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that nobody really pays much attention to inconvenient history. Av2 has a Dharamite talking about how utterly removed Avadon is from the Dharamite way of things ... when it was the brainchild of another Dharamite.

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Born out of defensive necessity generations ago, the Pact has serious legitimacy issues today, if it ever really had legitimacy among its members to begin with. The five member states are very distinct cultures, some of whom have a fairly entrenched and irreconcilable animosity toward another member over some grievance or another. Avadon, serving as enforcers of a police state, was its own necessity to keep the pact from tearing itself apart from within as much, if not more important than, protecting from existential threats from the Farlands.

 

I fail to see, going forward, how the pact can be something more than the fairly loose NATO alliance in the real world, a pact of member states, many of whom share mutual dislike, but bonded together in response to aggression by (at the time) the Soviet Union. So my prediction is that if the Pact can be preserved, it will be solely a military and trade alliance with little, if any, power over the internal workings of each of the member states.

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The Pact and its Avadon Hearts/Hands/Eyes should never have been used for internal policing. The people in the countries that make up the Pact were not interested in a strong central government that they perceive as taking away their rights and whose servants have ultimate power and no accountability and only do "good" if they are paid.

 

If the Pact had been founded like NATO then it might have survived, although as the perceived threat from the Farlanders dropped, so would everybody's interest in paying for it, just like NATO.

 

In another forum I gave my opinion that the while I am a Pact loyalist (while wanting to curb the excesses of Avadon), the Pact is doomed unless a new threat emerges that is so overwhelmingly powerful that it causes the majority of the rebels to put aside their differences. If that happens, the Pact would have a short window during and an even shorter window after the crisis (assuming it successfully dealt with the crisis) to make structural reforms, arbitrate disputes and build unity among the people of the pact in order to survive.

 

My backup plan was to take as much of the resources of Avadon as possible and try to hold Dharam against assorted problems until everyone is exhausted from killing each other.

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I'm more optimistic about the pact's prospects, in part because I see it as less like NATO and more like the United States under the Articles of Confederation, with Hanvar's Council standing in for the Continental Congress and Avadon for the Continental Army. (Which I suppose makes Redbeard into a much grimmer and scarier George Washington.) (Yes, I know, the parallels aren't all that close. Thank heavens.)

 

In some of the endings, like the one I got, you end with Hanvar's Council deciding to stop abdicating its authority, and asserting control over Avadon at the end...and that's the sign that gives me hope; it shows the Pact representatives really wanting to make the thing work, with the rule of law and the military power firmly subordinated to the civilian. With that kind of goodwill at the top I think the Pact has a decent chance of holding together, and maintaining its legitimacy...as long as it isn't simply overwhelmed.

 

A league like that still might atrophy or drift apart once the external threats are gone...but if in the meantime Avadon helps to settle their land disputes and so forth, there's a decent chance of peace between them.

 

In some of the other endings, as for example if you

kill Redbeard and take his place, with Avadon very strong,

Avadon ends up defying the Council's authority...putting the Keeper well on the road to crowning himself emperor. (And there was a movement to have Washington do just that after the Revolutionary War...but Washington himself adamantly refused.) That could change the dynamics greatly - the choice for the Pact members would no longer be "our Pact, that lets us run our own countries our way, versus the Tawon Emperor," but rather, "which of these two emperors, Tawon or Avadon, will rule us?"

 

If, as I suspect, Avadon 3 is the end of the series, and given that Jeff seems to like upbeat endings for his sagas even when the intermediate stories are grim (see Geneforge), I'm hoping the ending I got is the "canonical" one for Avadon 3.

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If, as I suspect, Avadon 3 is the end of the series, and given that Jeff seems to like upbeat endings for his sagas even when the intermediate stories are grim (see Geneforge), I'm hoping the ending I got is the "canonical" one for Avadon 3.

 

i dunno about this. avernum 6's ending isn't exactly catastrophic but even the best possible outcome is pretty much the definition of "downbeat"

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A6's ending? Ehh, I didn't think it was too bad (at least the regular ending - I suppose the ones where Melanchion or evil-wizard-dude dominate are kind of depressing). But maybe that's because it's relatively less depressing than the endings of G3 or G4 (G2's endings are also fairly grim, though not quite as hope-crushing IMO). Relative to those, I found A6's ending plenty satisfying. It's a not grandiose triumph and golden age, but I don't think you need that in order to reasonably call something a (relatively) happy ending.

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Now I'm curious: I remember hearing that in G5, in some paths one had to kill Greta in order to get a more positive ending. The only character I recall anyone ever expressing liking for in Ava1 was Nathalie, and Jeff already seems to have surreptitiously done away with her. (I'm pretty sure based on comments that a lot people wouldn't have minded killing Jenell themselves. She seemed like a jerk / arrogant twit, from what I recall.) Is there anyone that qualifies as a "popular" character in Ava1/Ava2 that we should put on deathwatch for the end of the series?

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I actually preferred Jenell to Nathalie, myself. Nathalie I thought was the arrogant one; Jenell was more the reserved/thoughtful type from my point of view. (Which admittedly can come across as arrogance, so I can kinda see where people might get the idea that Jenell was arrogant.)

 

Ava2... I will admit to having developed a reluctant liking for Alcander. (My blademaster, on the other hand, thinks he needs a high five to the face with one of his own turrets.) I think my favorite NPC, though, is Dedrik. He comes across as both likable and believably conflicted, and he's obviously willing to listen to differing opinions.

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