Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
katielee

Why The Rebellion? (possible spoilers)

Recommended Posts

Okay, I am at what I think is a bit of a turning point in the game as to whether I want to stay loyal to Avadon or join the rebellion, and it just occurred to me I don't know the reason for the rebellion other than a vague idea of Avadon being unjust.

 

Maybe I did a bit too much skim reading, or it wasn't mentioned enough to get it to sink in to my thick head, but I don't know why all these people hate the Pact and Avadon?

 

Is it possible for somebody to give me a brief explanation (preferably without spoilers please)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It all really boils down to a matter of regional politics - for instance, the Free Road through the Wyldrylm, which to Avadon is a model of fairness, but hurts the natives, who traditionally charged a toll for outsides to travel it.

 

The more obvious reasons, although they never play directly into the storyline of either game, have to do with the widespread perception of Hands as little more than hired knives who're always looking for a bribe. In A2 they also really lay on the popular outrage with plots like the observer from Hanvar's Council who makes you notice the hugely expensive throne rooms Redbeard builds in outlying forts that'll never be used for anything except to salve his ego.

 

But I'm a casual gamer - some of the longtime Avadon players on here can probably tell you more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It comes down to the question of whether you believe that a central authority should wield absolute power unaccounted, and whether the possible abuses that arise from that justify the so-called peace and safety that it enforces, usally in very non-peaceful ways. There's also a wider question of cultural domination and whether individual peoples should have their unique qualities and traits superceded by a larger "monoculture".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one part of the game where knowing the story of Avadon 1 helps; the people of the Wyldrylm have the same complaints in that game. The free road is a source of contention, but perhaps more importantly, they bemoan the loss of the "old ways." Some seem to grudgingly accept some loss of cultural sovereignty in exchange for perceived security and better relations with other nations, but others are resistant to domination by Avadon and the Pact. It seems that, by the time of Avadon 2, this resistance has developed into a full scale rebellion within the Wyldrylm. The rebellion makes sense in the context of troubles that were brewing in Avadon 1; it is a good example of continuity of story between the two games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I really like the idea of Pact, the more I play the game, the more I feel the cultures included are just not ready for such otherwise desirable unification. They cling too much to their distinct traditions and identities to form a stable amalgam - the only thing that unites them is fear of the Farlands and even that just barely. Like real civilizations of old, they probably have to massacre each other first for a few more centuries before they morph into something else. Alternatively, they could be subjugated by force and slowly smoothe their differences under cultural onslaught of a dominant empire. Haven't been to Tawon in Avadon 2 yet, so can't yet say I am Team Tawon, lol

 

Also, Redbeard is a problem. I like him and consider him competent, but I am a vehement opponent of one-man, barely accountable centers of power. Even the most benevolent king or dictator will eventually get tired, start making mistakes, develop severe blind spots and drown in a coterie of yes-men. Keeper should be limited to terms and Avadon as an institution should be less dependent on his or her person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like many of the choices in Avadon, both are bad. If you destroy the corrupt, unaccountable, cruel dictatorship of the Pact/Avadon and achieve freedom, all of the countries of Lyneaus will proceed to use that freedom to slaughter each other. Avadon needs a major reformation, Redbeard needs to go, and the nations of the Pact need to include the civilized farlanders and to grow up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that unless I am just not far enough in the story, that is not A Rebellion, there are many rebellions each after something completely different and extremely unlikely to cooperate with each other after tearing down the Pact, leading to a period of great chaos and bloodshed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After which, we can only assume that some order will be restored.

You do not seem familiar with the cycles of war and peace in human history...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very familiar with them. I find the large quantities of death due to violence, famine and disease depressing and in general prefer a PAX Romana or PAX Britania, which of course only delays the inevitable. I am not disagreeing that Avadon needs to go, I just have not met any revolutionaries in the game who have a chance of creating anything positive out of the ruins. Good revolutionaries are extremely hard to find, most tend to be too hobbled by hate or an unworkable economic system to build a stable country. If I had to pick a side, I would support Dharam and try to remain neutral with/play off against each other the other four nations of the Pact, Khemeria and Tawon. I would endeavor to maintain a defense for my mountain borders, and a limited to total offense as resources allowed against the Svorgald while the rest of the continent proceeded to slaughter itself, allowing the wretches, titans, ogres and corruption to overrun a big chunk of the South.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love that Jeff has apparently created a sufficiently interesting world that someone is now plotting out a strategy for the rebellion. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very familiar with them. I find the large quantities of death due to violence, famine and disease depressing and in general prefer a PAX Romana or PAX Britania, which of course only delays the inevitable.

I disagree about "delaying the inevitable". Long term imperial dominance generally makes the subjugated regions closer culturally, even if they later become independent.

 

I am not disagreeing that Avadon needs to go, I just have not met any revolutionaries in the game who have a chance of creating anything positive out of the ruins. Good revolutionaries are extremely hard to find, most tend to be too hobbled by hate or an unworkable economic system to build a stable country.

Exactly. It is one thing to criticize, one has to offer an alternative to the system. Otherwise, we are just blowing things up and hoping the pieces fall down in an orderly manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Avadon was created by the nations of the Pact as something of a protective clearinghouse, so they could cooperate in defending themselves against outside threats. Avadon became more and more powerful, especially under Redbeard, until rather than protecting the Pact it became de facto ruler of them. Although Avadon became an imperial power backwards, the rebellion, or rebellions, are really the common kind: local powers trying to throw off an outside overlord.

 

The details of how Avadon went from protector to tyrant are muddled, and you can argue about where Avadon actually falls on the scale, but that's the gist of it. And the fact that Avadon's emissaries often get to act as mini-dictators wherever they go, answering to no one but Redbeard, who is largely indifferent to their excesses, is just fuel for the flames of outrage.

 

—Alorael, who has posted more extensively in other threads about how he views Avadon. The short version is that Avadon does a valuable and good thing, but it does it in close to the worst possible way. It also does so under trying circumstances. It's possible there is no good way to hold the Pact together once external threats have receded in immediacy; they are, after all, separate, squabbling nations with as much bad blood and cultural disparity as common ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I both like and hate the Pact. Being more specific, I like the idea of the Pact but I hate the implementation. The same holds true for Avadon.

 

As such, my motivation in runs where I'm going to take down Redbeard are to try to get some reforms going without destroying either institution.

 

That said, I'm sympathetic with at least some of the Farlanders. (Mostly the Tawon Empire.)

 

I think it's incredibly messed up that Farlanders seem to be barred from defending themselves against any threat that comes from the Pact, even roving bands of murderous Pact Bandits. Where instead they have to beg and plead for the Pact to come in and deal with said bandits and the like.

 

I'd like to see Khemeria unified instead of stuck with a bunch of petty warlords.

 

From what's been described of them . . . No real sympathy for Svorgald. Mostly because their gripe seems to be "It's so unfair that the Pact won't let us raid, kill, and plunder as we please! Where's their sense of cultural tolerance?"

 

Still undecided on Titans/Ogres/Wretches.

 

Oh, and I can't stand the Wyldrylm Rebels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what's been described of them . . . No real sympathy for Svorgald. Mostly because their gripe seems to be "It's so unfair that the Pact won't let us raid, kill, and plunder as we please! Where's their sense of cultural tolerance?"

 

I'd say it's more a matter of "turnabout is fair play" -- the Pact bleeds the Farlands of all it can, so it's understandable that some Farlanders would feel justified in doing the same in return. I guess I do have a little more sympathy for Svorgald than they strictly merit, because with their large and advanced navy, and (unlike the Pact) an actual motivation to explore the world, they're the most likely power to pull Lynaeus out of its stagnation by discovering a new continent or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say it's more a matter of "turnabout is fair play" -- the Pact bleeds the Farlands of all it can, so it's understandable that some Farlanders would feel justified in doing the same in return. I guess I do have a little more sympathy for Svorgald than they strictly merit, because with their large and advanced navy, and (unlike the Pact) an actual motivation to explore the world, they're the most likely power to pull Lynaeus out of its stagnation by discovering a new continent or something.

They will sail far, far away and discover a land where wizards create life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far, I consider Dharam the only close to rational land. I would therefore hope that they could be persuaded to allow Tawon to join. They still have the threat of the Svorgald raiders to keep them motivated to remain in the Pact. The problem is that Holklanda and Kellemdereil can't come to a simple compromise on a forest and would rather just kill each other. Take away the bogey man of the independent Tawon emporia and there is no longer much incentive (neither rationality nor humanity seem to be an incentive for those two) for them to stay in the Pact and refrain from killing each other.

Given the current refusal of the nations of the Pact to resolve issues, the only thing that I think will reunite them, and allow them to make true peace with the Tawon and Khemeria would be for Lilith's vikings to find that external threat, either by accidentally leading it back to Lynaeus after discovering a new continent, or by joining with that threat after discovering a new continent.

The Pact (with all of its faults) and Avadon (with all of its extreme faults) can only buy time for the nations of the Pact to either become closer culturally or learn to respect and embrace their differences, and right now, it looks like the Pact has run out of time. Part of the problem seems to be that there is very little interaction between the citizens of the different pact nations. In Avadon 1, there was one married couple between nations, and they lived out in the woods away from everyone. Without the easy transportation and mass communication that we take for granted, it is very hard for the disparate nations to become closer culturally. While Avadon serves part of the function of an empire, they do not seem particularly interested in spreading that unified culture the way that the British Empire did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't recall their names, but we meet one possible Holklandan/Kellem couple on the border outpost next to the Corruption. Though the precise nature of their relationship isn't clear, they're obviously very close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...