Suggestions for Improvement?

[carbon_dragon]

I know a game with this many scenarios under its belt probably is just the way the users like it at this point so feel free to ignore these suggestions, but I had a few thoughts based on playing some other games. As a software engineer I'll try to keep them reasonable. Also I like the game so I'm not saying it's not already a great game (at a great price too).

 

1. Find a way so that when you're trying to touch something on the map, what you want to see isn't right under your non-see-through finger.

2. I'm continually moving a character when I want to fire a bow or a spell. It seems that when there is an error (too far away for a bow) it somehow exits the multiple touch system and as a result when I try to reselect the target the character moves instead, usually right into the middle of a bunch of monsters that kill them. Frustrating.

3. It would be nice, not necessary but nice, for the clothing/armor the characters are wearing to be visible on the characters moving around the board. Temple of Elemental Evil did this very well. I pretty sure Realmz did too but I can't remember for sure.

4. It would be nice if the quests showed not only the quest but also what you have accomplished on it. Skyrim does this well. It's hard to remember how many bat colonies you've wiped out when you need to wipe out 4 and so on.

5. Pathfinding needs improvement (to be fair, so does Skyrim). Often I touch on a square 4 away and the character ends up trying to run around the world to get there because of some obstruction I don't see, right into a bunch of monsters that kill her. Again frustrating. Temple of Elemental Evil when you touched the square drew you a waypoint path that showed how the character was going to get there. That was sweet and clever and should be replicated here if possible. It would avoid a lot of pain.

6. Some of the armor items seem more heavy than they'd be in real life. This is a mistake made in most games. Weapons are often also represented as so heavy no-one would ever really be able to use them. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it might be useful to go through the various equipment and do some weighing gear to see if there is any improvement possible. Encumbrance has never been all that much fun for me as a part of the game. That said, this game does a good job of not making it onerous. I just think some of the stuff is a bit too heavy.

7. Why just one ring? D&D limits you to 2 and even that is artificial. Try explaining that to a D&D player. Maybe you should at least allow 2 rings.

8. When you sell something to a NPC, why does he not have it to sell afterward? Sure he might sell it at some point, but I think the things you sell him should add to his inventory. It makes you think you're affecting the world.

9. Replay -- Realmz had a system where you could switch characters in and out of your party from a larger "farm team" group. This allowed you to transfer some decent starting gear off to another group of characters and when you started a new game, you could have them start out with less than the usual pathetic gear. Maybe not many would want to do that, but it also allowed you to bring more mages for some encounters and more fighters for others which was useful.

 

Well, none of these are musts, just suggestions. I wonder if Avernum 7 might be called "Into the Light" and be an adventure above ground in the Empire and below ground in Avernum?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Funnily enough, 8 was a part of the original Avernum Trilogy, there were also NPC's who could join your party (something like 9) but both these were removed from A4 on wards.

[carbon_dragon]

Many games have followers you can recruit but usually there are restrictions. Skyrim allows basically one though you can get around that on a PC. There's a guy who does videos on YouTube who goes around with an army and it's pretty funny. Traditionally, in D&D you have 4-6 characters in a party. In early computer RPGs you tended to have 6, though some used 4. Often you could recruit some small number. One I saw but didn't play started you with one and you could then recruit an entire party.

 

I guess the idea is to keep it from being too easy, but why not just leave that up to the player? You do have to design the real estate, but it seems to me that 6 would be viable in Avernum and would allow you to carry some specialists like thieves or an extra mage or cleric. I think Might and Magic had MU/Fighter classes I think called Bishops? (or was that Wizardry). Of course Avernum allows you to build your own though the fact is that my fighter isn't going to be a great mage without the traits and attribute points. I did enjoy in D&D based games rolling and rerolling the stats to get a really good character.

[Lilith]

I guess the idea is to keep it from being too easy, but why not just leave that up to the player? You do have to design the real estate, but it seems to me that 6 would be viable in Avernum and would allow you to carry some specialists like thieves or an extra mage or cleric. I think Might and Magic had MU/Fighter classes I think called Bishops? (or was that Wizardry).

 

That was Wizardry, and Bishops were actually mage/priest hybrids; the fighter/caster hybrids were... well, there were actually quite a lot of them in the later instalments since there were four schools of magic, but Lords, Valkyries and Samurai were the ones that existed from the start. M&M had Archers and Paladins.

 

Some hybrids are actually quite viable in Avernum. Mage/priest hybrids work fine, fighter/priests can work under the right circumstances, and most characters can benefit from some investment in archery skills in Avernum 4-6. It's really only in Avernum: Escape from the Pit that hybrids don't work very well.

[adc.]

Well, none of these are musts, just suggestions. I wonder if Avernum 7 might be called "Into the Light" and be an adventure above ground in the Empire and below ground in Avernum?

 

I think Avernum 3 is similar to that. And yes, Avernum does have its lower, main and upper sections.

 

But I don't think there will ever be a seventh, because Jeff is holding a cupful of Avadon.

 

I can't really say anything about your suggestions. As a fifteen year old, I haven't played PnP nor Skyrim. But if you're talking about D&D Online, then I have all the answers I'll try to answer them though.

 

1.) Yes. I would vouch for that. But sometimes, you need to keep a keen eye out for stuff like that as an added difficulty by Jeff.

 

2.) No trouble with that. I don't use archers.

 

3.) That appeared on Avernum 3, but I doubt that you'll appreciate pixel changes in armor

 

4.)...

 

5.) I hate that part, but that's the consequence of my laziness. You have to click square by square to cross any obstructions.

 

6.)...

 

7.) Yes, even so does D&D Online limits you to two rings. But enhancements don't stack if you have the same bonus. Like +2 Charismatic helm and a +1 Charismatic +5 Perform cloak. You get no benefit from those

 

8.) That happens on Geneforge, but with added price.

 

9.)...

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-Nightwatcher

[carbon_dragon]

Even D&D has changed over the years, but I was talking more paper and pencil. I haven't played online. Yes the current edition does have some rules about stacking the same kind of rings. In the old days I don't think that was true and it was all up the DM anyway. Given that players have all kinds of magical doodads, the idea that you can only have 2 rings is a stretch. Why for instance a ring, armor, and gloves and not 3 rings? No way to really justify it, it's just the rules for keeping the game power levels under control.

 

In real D&D games, the DM keeps things under control by what he gives the players. It still gets out of control eventually. Even if items don't get out of control, 2nd Edition AD&D (where I played the most and DMd the most) gets almost unplayable in the high level teens due to the mages becoming so powerful. In computer games, you typically become so powerful that you'd be unplayable in a paper and pencil game (or it wouldn't be fun) but it's fun in the computer game. In fact, mostly games like Avernum just take 1 component of real RPGs (the combat and a little story) and run with it. All the human interaction and cooperation is missing and that's really the heart of the experience. Perhaps you get a little of that back with an online MMORPG.

[carbon_dragon]

I just want to reiterate on how important I think it is to address the pathing issue. Go play Temple of Elemental Evil with its preview system. Basically you click on a spot and hold your mouse button (or finger). While you do it draws the path your character will take to get there. Even if the pathing remains broken, you can at least avoid the really stupid routes that the character would NEVER NEVER NEVER take. Some of these battles are hard enough without this issue.

 

Number 2 is confusing waiting with hitting a bad guy right next to you. The wait button should be a button on the UI way away from the actual map. That way there would be no misunderstanding.

 

Avernum 6 is fun so far, but I could wish it was a little less linear in that you can't go some places (like the Eastern Gallery) until a certain point on the main quest. Also it's been hard for my poor Mage who has had to train for mage, bowwoman and thief all at once. Maybe that's my fault but the Priest is usually keeping us alive and the fighters are usually fighting so it seemed like the only choice. I use all the knowledge brews and crystals for her but she still can't keep up.

 

Now if you excuse me, I have to go explore Fort Avernum ... well what's left of it anyway.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

I generally give tool use to one of the fighters, A fighter, magician and thief in one is too much.

[Randomizer]

Avernum 4 is the only game where tool use needs to be with the mage since it combines to improve the unlock spell.

[carbon_dragon]

I read that and thought it applied to A6. Oh well, my bad. I just stopped into old Fort Avernum, oh the memories. I just asked to borrow a cup of mushroom meal and they about bit my head off. Some people have no sense of humor.

[Questionably Legal]

 

Well, none of these are musts, just suggestions. I wonder if Avernum 7 might be called "Into the Light" and be an adventure above ground in the Empire and below ground in Avernum?

Like Avernum 3? Already happened.

 

 

I read that and thought it applied to A6. Oh well, my bad. I just stopped into old Fort Avernum, oh the memories. I just asked to borrow a cup of mushroom meal and they about bit my head off. Some people have no sense of humor.

Might I borrow a cup of meal?

[cbecker78]

In fact, mostly games like Avernum just take 1 component of real RPGs (the combat and a little story) and run with it. All the human interaction and cooperation is missing and that's really the heart of the experience. Perhaps you get a little of that back with an online MMORPG.

 

This cooperativity is the main reason the Ultima series stands out for me still as the most enjoyable computer rpgs I have played. By the time I got to Ultima VI and VII, meeting up with Shamino, Iolo, Dupre, Janna, etc., almost felt like meeting up with old friends for an adventure. The ability to talk with them when you wanted during the game and the extra comments interjected in conversations (e.g., "How darest you! Don't you know you speak to the Avatar?") went a long way towards helping me forget I was sitting alone in the dark at 2:30 in the morning trying to figure what to do next. Playing the Ultima series as "yourself" after traveling trough a mysterious portal also helped me feel more personally engaged, somewhat compensating for the lack of sitting around a table of friends. The lack of those aspects in Ultima VIII is why I never considered buying that game.

 

Spiderweb games come closer to recreating the above for me than anything else does, I think. However, I find it is easier in the Avernum series to feel detached from your other player characters when you need to maintain both your personalities and theirs. There is also loss of continuity where it is clear you are never the same person in a sequel as you were in the last game, even if you make the same characters in terms of stats and names. "Avadon" goes a long way towards a more enjoyable PC interaction with companions, though it is not difficult to find most of them somewhat irrational and annoying by endgame.

 

It is funny though, even the action of having a dog along as in the Bard's Tale IV, and occasionally having the bard exclaim "Why didn't I get a dawg sooner!" or similar made a big difference in the feeling of companionship during gameplay. Little hovertexts or random comments from party members such as "I'm hungry" or "yeah let's go get em!" etc. also help substantially to remind us we are having an adventure with others rather than just moving game pieces around a virtual board to "win".

 

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MMORPGs though? My only experience there was watching 50 or so sprites at a time all clustered around the same NPC giving out quests, and then running around watching people stand around changing race and gender, droping like flies in battle, and popping in and out of the "world". Far too hectic for the simple adventurer that I am. Playing Halo in arena mode with a group of friends via XBox live was fun though. I think it all boils down to whether I am playing with a group of people I am thrilled to hang out with, or whether I am alone running with a bunch of strangers. I don't think care if the strangers are controlled by real people or Game-engine AI; and to some extent I also don't care whether those I am thrilled to hang out with are also sprites controlled by real people or just very familiar contsructs of my imagination and/or the imagination of the author/developer.

 

That's just me though...

 

Edited b/c I can't count in roman numerals, apparently.

Edited July 30, 2013 by cbecker78