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Can a "noob-party" win Avernum 5?


Cfant

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Hi everyone!

 

Bought Avernum 5 and played a few days, like the setting very much, but I'm getting quite frustrated. I'm quite new to Spiderweb Software games, although I (successfully) played a lot of rpg in my gamer life :) But here I have several problems. Reading in the forum makes me fear, I have to surrender the game, so I decided to ask you "veterans" of Avernum ;)

 

1. What's this for a leveling system? I read, that beating enemys don't bring me exp? How can I plan to level up?

2. I turned down difficulty to easy already, as most (harder) fights are a "try - reload - find proper tactic - have bad luck - reload until luck is on my side - win" issue - which of course is not very funny. Now, on easy, I get stamped into the ground by Persephone and her guys in Exodus. Is it a especially hard fight, or isn't it just a game for me?

3. How can I help my heroes against spell/acid/fire attacks? I find no helpful spells, and armour I get bring me 5% or somethin like that - nearly each "special" attack of the enemy hits (what of course brings me down quite fast). And my guys reach new levels very seldom (level 11 at the moment), so I can't level attacks skills and defensive skills often enough.

4. How can I see, how far the enemy can go? Is there any way to keep distance in fights?

5. Enemys block a lot of damage (even bats block 20 of 40 damage). My supermen are equal to bats, although they wear armour. Is that wanted?

6. At least, it's all just one major question: If you play this game, handle your party as would be proper in most rpgs, level the guys according to you common sense - is there a chance to beat the game? Or will it be an eternal reload-session? An eternay try-and-error way, consuming time I don't have since my students day ended years ago? :(

 

If it's a game, where you need to experiment a lot with several teams and talents and so on - well, then it's fine, but not mine ;)

 

Thanks and greetings!

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Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Otherwise you can lose it reading the conflcting advice from the Boards. :)

 

1. You get experience from doing quests and killing monsters, however as you gain levels you will get less experience from weaker monsters until you can get nothing. Do a quest or kill a monster that is harder will get you more. Some quests give no experience since they are meant to direct you in the game.

 

2. Some fights are very hard and are meant to be done when you are much higher level than when you first encounter them. Lark's quests are a good example. Persephone was a hard one too since she gets surprise and you may find retreating to a better position helps in the start while you heal and buff your characters to have speed, protection, and war blessing.

 

3. Endurance will eventually make you shrug off acid and poison. It also helps to get health to survive a fight. Augmentation mage spell gives extra health until you return to a town. Essence shield reduces spell damage.

 

$. Distance takes practice. Creeping up on an enemy can let you lure one at a time away from a group so he follows you back to be killed. Missile weapons have slightly greater range than spells.

 

5. There is a whole debate on whether that few extra percent armor is worth a lower to hit chance. Some players create a tank character with high health and armor to stand out there an attract opponents while the others do the damage.

 

6. Jeff tried to make this game have less weak opponent mob fights and more mini boss fights where some need a special tactic to go easily. You can beat the game with almost any party, but it will be easier if you specialize characters to concentrate on doing damage with either a weapon or spell.

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@Randomizer: Thanks for your very valuable advice! I have some rpg-experience, it's nearly always good to specialice (same in strategy games :)), so I did. Still it's quite a fight, even on easy... The game also doesn't give you much help, which areas are harder and which are easy - difficulty differs very much it seems. On the other hand, I like the idea of many boss-fights instead of hack and slay... By the way: How do I find secret doors? Often I see a dark point in a wall, a few times I could click it and open a door, but mostl times I cannot click it? And: Which weapon should I use - the one with the most damage or a blessed one with lower damage? In other words: Are there any other important stats on weapons other then damage?

 

@Mosquito Slayer: Well, I tried to solve all the quests I found. Only a very few I could not solve already. For example the cat-test-chambers ;) No chance. Sigh.

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Avernum games let you use the "u" command to highlight objects that can be clicked on like the switches for hidden doors and containers. Jeff deliberately added extra fake switches and even rooms that can't be accessed.

 

Usually the weapon with the highest damage at the start. Later in the game weapons with bonuses that deal out extra damage (fire, cold, acid, ...) or improve to hit and/or stats. You may want to swap swords since some monsters are immune to a damage type.

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Avernum games let you use the "u" command to highlight objects that can be clicked on like the switches for hidden doors and containers. Jeff deliberately added extra fake switches and even rooms that can't be accessed.

 

Also, some of the secret switches have a Tool Use requirement to activate, although usually it's not very high. You'll get a message in the transcript window if your Tool Use isn't high enough.

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I most propably won't. :( Guess I'll give it up. Even on easy it's ridiculousy hard. At least for me. Rats (!!!) can absorb 15 damage from my level 12 hero and attack him twice a turn. And their little teeth bite through all the armor of my heros, bringing them down in two or three combat-turns. I mean: Rats! I only know them as tutorial-enemies in other games :) Not to talk from the really hard ones. Got to a pylon with whispering voices, which sent a guardian against me. No matter which weapon: Blesses pole, special sword, magic, spells, summoned ghosts: Nothing could do more than 1 or two damage - he had 1200 healthpoints.

I guess it's a game for people, who like to try again and again and try out several ways of character development. Of course that's fine - sadistic Jeff can make games however he wants. :) But if his mission was to create a world for hardcore rpg-players AND people who just want to adventure after work he failed, I guess. ;) It brakes my heart, for it's a really thrilling world with so many great ideas! But to reload so often and see no chance against so many enemies takes the fun...

Well, had to say that :) But really thanks for your help, guys!

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The whispering pylon is a special mini boss fight. You have to deal with the summoned ghosts first and each one takes most of its damage from a specific attack type.

 

Jeff went overboard on clever mini boss fight that require figuring out how he planned to do the fight. Plus this is the first game where he asked beta testers how they did fights and promptly eliminated every game exploit we were using. :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes I pretty much gave up too for now atleast, I admit I was playing on hard and was willing to try hard with the stronger enemies but those super-vicous thick skinned rats with titanium teeth really demoralize you.. its a shame since A5 looked like it had a story plot better than A4 (which I liked alot).

 

I might try it again in the future on easy after Ive read about it here and made the best possible party I can, but if even then I cant play il probably be really angry at myself for wasting all that time and effort. :p

 

Also I read here somewhere people talking about playing A5 on torment... how did that happen? :p whoever did it should post his strategy for playing and how he made his party, unless he was just really really determined. :p

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There are opposing views on how to play on torment. Some like specialization and others prefer each character has multiple skill groups.

 

min-maxing-on-torment is an analysis.

 

Most players view specialization in one weapon or spell type for each character as a key to success. For instance two fighters, a mage, and a priest is a typical party. Fighters concentrate on strength, endurance, weapon skill, quick action, and parry. Spell casting characters have intelligence, mage or priest spells, spellcraft, and magery. The idea is to maximize damage and have a tank character to stand in front and absorb damage.

 

For traits, everyone likes Divine Touch since it adds to ever¥ character's fighting ability and gives a natural armor bonus of 20%. Fighters usually take Elite Warrior for extra fighting ability and defense. Mages take Natural Mage for extra armor and increased spell damage.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Unless I missed my mark, Avernum 4 was easier for me for half the game compared to 5 or 6. In Avernum 4, I could at least get to the Chitrachs which were hard but doable. Avernum 5 is easy until you get to the docks and have to fight the mage and other thugs. From there its ridiculous even on easy. I usually stop playing 5 when I get up to the bandit fortress of the Beast. The reason is that the fights are more ranged combat based than melee like Avernum 1 and its remake. You get destroyed if you don't plan every move as your last. I fought the beast once and he's just ridiculous. Avernum 6 I didn't play as much as 4 or 5 but they did some things right. There were more characters/npcs that joined your party for a little while. That's kind of cool for a change. If I had to choose between playing any of them above the half way mark, it'd be either 6 or 4. I'd say the games might be worth completing but not really much of a replayability.

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Ranged combat is one of the reasons I developed the Mad Monk Squad. I know that it is not min/max compliant but it reflects a style that suits me.

 

http://www.harehunte...dMonkSquad.html

 

I love ranged combat too. But it depends on the game. When I play any of the Avernum games, for some reason the main character that is leading the group (for me) has to be a fighter. When I play Avadon, I'm the exact opposite. I told one of my friends who is in the military that Avadon is the one party based game where ranged combat is not just fun and powerful, its awesome. Every time I read more of Avadon's history, war, politics, alliances-it all makes me believe that jeff had the mindset of a military style rpg. Think about the tactics, get a guy that is armed with more health/armor/what not to rush the enemy drawing their fire, while the finesse marksman comes from behind/far away and takes them down. Its somewhat easy to pull this off in avernum, but in Avadon, its almost required.

 

So yeah I find ranged combat awesome it just depends on the game.

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Having been in the military myself I tend to see the PC characters from a small unit perspective rather than an individual person. My first player is essentially an armor unit, and while their primary mission is to engage in close combat, they also have a heavy weapons section to provide ranged indirect fire. My number two guy is a heavy infantry /combat engineer (high skill in tool use) and they also have mortars available. My two hedge wizards are my primary artillery units, And every unit has a medical team attached to it. But that is just me. I have never played singleton or torment, just never had the time or patience. Besides, I enjoy cartography even more.

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Harehunter,

 

Thats cool. Yeah a number of my friends are in the military and each one of them is always usually into anyone of party-based games. If they dont like baldurs gate, then its d and d turnbased games like TOEE or Avernum. I was in the rotc but I didnt like it as it just didnt suit my lifestyle. I did go to boot camp for 3 days and it was brutal and later-was funny. Some fool didnt keep the watch and as protocol goes, they woke up everyone in the whole compound up. They couldnt wake me up for a few minutes as I was sound asleep. Eventually the chief picked up my bed with both hands. That got me up, lol.

 

You obviously know a great deal more than me with tactics. If you dont mind me asking, what branch were you in? My grandfather was in WW2 and was lucky to be a messenger. Uncle was in vietnam and responsible for sending rescue units to pick up soldiers whose plane crashed. I watched a movie named Harsh Times about an extremely powerful soldier that was in iraq or something similar and was suffering from post traumatic stress. After watching the movie I think that anyone that was in any of those situations should be allowed free therapy when they get out.

 

Its only right as these people do more than anyone thinks for this country. War isnt fun, but luckily we offer more assistance than most countries.

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I was in the Army as a combat engineer officer. Four years active duty, plus 12 more reserve. My dad was field artillery in the Pacific, my step dad was army air corp in Italy.

 

My ROTC camp was six weeks in the middle of Kansas in the middle of the summer. It was a good thing the barracks had no air conditioning; it made it easier to become acclimated to the heat. My officer basic course was in Virginia in the winter. Our infantry phase field exercise was the last week of January in a foot or two of snow. While I was never in combat, I was prepared for what ever did come down the pike.

 

One of my jobs in the reserves was with the battle simulations center. We ran command and staff exercises on computers that simulated the troops in the field. A lot of my tactical knowledge came from that experience.

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The whispering pylon is a special mini boss fight. You have to deal with the summoned ghosts first and each one takes most of its damage from a specific attack type.

 

Jeff went overboard on clever mini boss fight that require figuring out how he planned to do the fight. Plus this is the first game where he asked beta testers how they did fights and promptly eliminated every game exploit we were using. :(

 

Randomizer, got a question about the mini boss fights. I noticed that a lot of them are geared towards starting and abandoning only to come back later. I find that works the best as I usually cant do them when right away. I now have the hint books so I guess that is why I don't have as much problems. But my main question is is it SUPPOSED to be hard if you do it right away and am I doing the right thing?

 

Im only asking as I noticed that some of the creatures are naturally tough when you fight them without the right stats/items. But usually when I come back, I always am able to win. I just hope that Im not supposed to be able to get through asap. That would mean I made my party weak, lol.

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