Geneforge 5 Musings

[Kelandon]

After finishing GF4 in this topic, I've started in on GF5. I'm playing as a Lifecrafter (heard about the increased power of Shaping, thought it would be fun to try it). The most striking thing that I'm finding is that there isn't a natural progression of areas as there has been in virtually every GF game up to this point. Either that, or I'm completely failing at min-maxing (which is likely).

 

What I mean is that I couldn't take down even a single unbound until I hit about level 25 or so, and I still can't deal with the hive of them in the swamps. The peripheral areas on the northern map are still giving me heck, and I'm at level 33 at this point. I've spent a lot of time wandering up and down to find new areas that I can handle: "I'm too weak to deal with the Dera region in the south, so let me hang out and kill Glaahks in Hatra for a while. Okay, I've dealt with Hatra, so I'll go back north and hit Lerman's pass. Can't deal with the eye, so I'll come back south and work on the Abandoned Farms. Hey, Thistlewood looks good. I'll fight some bandits out there."

 

I've done a LOT more of this bouncing around than I've done in any other GF (or, frankly, any other Spidweb game except Avadon, and it was mandatory in Avadon).

 

I think part of my issue is that I have the wrong creations. Right now, I'm traveling with two Wingbolts, a Kyshakk, and a Cryodrayk. I've had the Wingbolts for a while, so they're around level 38. The Kyshakk is level 31, and the Croydrayk is level 36. I've pumped Int but not as much the Shaping skills, so I have a lot of Essence, but I think my creations are lower level than they should be, and Wingbolts just aren't as good as in GF4. I now have the ability to make all tier 1-4 creations, although only a few enhanced (Cryodrayks being one of the only ones), and I suspect that I should toss my Wingbolts and Kyshakk for something else (more Cryodrayks, maybe, or some Rotgroths).

 

I think the other part of the issue is that I don't have the right spells. I still can't cure poison/acid very well (takes two or three rounds of my basic curing spell), and lightning aura from Kyshakks was deadly until I got regeneration aura to (partly) counteract it. I do a lot of killing one enemy and running for the exit to go to a friendly town to heal statuses, and this just seems silly, but I haven't yet seen exactly what I'm missing.

 

I also have a significant cash crunch, maybe because I'm not selling enough junk. I have piles and piles of gemstones that I'm probably never going to use, and I've not yet made any equipment with my enormous stash of eyes, scales, and such from different kinds of creations.

 

Given all of the above, suggestions? I feel horrendously underpowered, and I'm pretty sure that I'm playing this game altogether wrong, but it doesn't seem as simple as the Avadon strategy (pump Dex, get critical hits and missile skills, and crank the middle columns).

[Dikiyoba]

Poison and acid will always suck since the cure spell was nerfed really badly. Curing spores will work, though.

 

Keep the wingbolts and replace your other creations with rotghroths. Replace them with rotdhizons as soon as you can.

 

If you have lots of mechanics and living tools, make a break for Gazaki-Uss as soon as you can and loot the canisters hiding in the labs there.

 

Dikiyoba would pump battle shaping (and intelligence) so that you can swarm everything with rotdhizons and war tralls as well as selling off loot to buy living tools, because you'll probably need them.

[Randomizer]

Jeff put in lots of things that act as zone mini bosses to keep you out of areas that are meant for just before end game like Eyes. So don't expect to complete zones the first time you can enter them. I did lots of clear a quarter zone and retreat to recharge to full strength. This game lets you get to a higher level than the others.

[Student of Trinity]

This game has a whole bunch of factions, and there are late-game faction quests for one or the other of them scattered all over the continent. There are also a lot of optional tough fights, for which there's an easy way (though maybe only later) and a hard way, and the most natural thing to do plot-wise is sneak carefully past some bad stuff. It you really want to toast everything, there's a ton of loot to be had, but yes, there are a lot of very tough areas even rather early. You can't just steamroll from beginning to end.

 

The other thing is that battle creations are finally good in G5, especially the tralls. This comes as a surprise, since battle creations have never been any good in any previous Geneforge game, with the partial exception of rots. Kyhsakks are disappointing, Wingbolts are okay but nerfed in comparison with G4. The disposable Shock Tralls are quite worthwhile, since they get two attacks per turn. A pseudo-singleton shaper-type who creates seven fresh Shock Tralls at the beginning of every zone can trash anything pretty easily except for the final challenge zone, and you can get to that well before the end of the game, if I remember rightly.

[Kelandon]

On Diki's suggestion, I replaced the Kyshakk and Cryodrayk with two Rots, and this did help a lot. The issue I was having was that the two Wingbolts and the Kyshakk were doing magic damage, and the Cryodrayk was doing cold, so if I fought something with significant magic immunity (lots of higher-level things), I couldn't do much to them. Also, Wingbolts can take magic damage well, and Cryodrayks can take cold damage well, but nothing could handle acid or physical damage. Rots handle acid much better. The types of damage done and damage resisted line up much better with two Wingbolts and two Rots.

 

I think now I can go up to the Western Passes and see if I can track down that Rot canister. At that point, I might be able to buy the second level of Rot, too, and get Rotdhizons. I'll report back.

 

EDIT: And the answer is a firm NO, because the Rot canister is behind an Eye. Definitely don't have the firepower to deal with that yet. Maybe I'll go back to the Shadow Road, pick up some infiltrator garb, then head back to Gazaki-Uss to get some more canisters and Shape a War Trall.

 

That is, assuming I can handle the creations that were in my way before, which is questionable.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Yeah, you will be able to take on a lot more things once you get the war trall, it does 200+ damage and can take a hell lot of punishment.

(BTW the eye should have been doable if you forced it into melee with the wingbolts and rotties, you don't even need to keep the rotgroths alive as they will be replaced by the bigger version in any case)

That is, assuming I can handle the creations that were in my way before, which is questionable.

If you mean the ones in the path of Gazaki-uss, you can run past them and don't need to fight them, just take the commander's advice and stay close to the road.

[Brocktree]

To survive on Torment in Geneforge 5, you needs lots of War Tralls, and lots of mental magic. I wouldn't worry about Rotghroths, just get War Tralls ASAP and level them up.

[Kelandon]

Am I right in thinking that you need the Gazaki-Uss canister or to join a faction to get War Tralls? That's what it looks like from the various Strategy Central topics, but it's a little hard to tell. If so, I'll head straight back to Gazaki-Uss, because there's no point in doing anything else right now.

 

I'm putting off joining a faction for as long as I can, partly on purpose and partly because I can't seem to do the next step for any particular faction at all right now.

 

I seem to be a little too far on the Shaper side at this point to get some of the Rebel faction missions (Trakovites, Ghaldring, etc.). I'm finding that without the equivalent of Slarty's GF4 reputation analysis, it's a little hard to figure out what I'm doing on the factions. GF4's playing both sides was really nice.

[Brocktree]

Am I right in thinking that you need the Gazaki-Uss canister or to join a faction to get War Tralls? That's what it looks like from the various Strategy Central topics, but it's a little hard to tell. If so, I'll head straight back to Gazaki-Uss, because there's no point in doing anything else right now.

 

I'm putting off joining a faction for as long as I can, partly on purpose and partly because I can't seem to do the next step for any particular faction at all right now.

 

I seem to be a little too far on the Shaper side at this point to get some of the Rebel faction missions (Trakovites, Ghaldring, etc.). I'm finding that without the equivalent of Slarty's GF4 reputation analysis, it's a little hard to figure out what I'm doing on the factions. GF4's playing both sides was really nice.

 

You can train in war tralls if you don't kill the rebel mage at the abandoned farms.

[Kelandon]

You can train in war tralls if you don't kill the rebel mage at the abandoned farms.

That person is offering me Drayk, Kyshakk, Battle Alpha, and Rotghroth. I don't see an option to train in War Trall.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

That person is offering me Drayk, Kyshakk, Battle Alpha, and Rotghroth. I don't see an option to train in War Trall.

Yes he doesn't teach War Tralls and yes apart from that canister you will have to join some faction.

[Brocktree]

Oh, my mistake. Does Astoria teach it if you join her?

[Lilith]

According to the trainer guide, the Astoria and Alwan factions both teach you to create War Tralls after you've joined them and helped them out enough. There's also training available in Zephyr Oasis (for any Shaper faction) and in Dera South Shore (for rebel sympathisers, based on your leadership and reputation).

[Brocktree]

So if you want War Tralls early, you're best off joining Astoria. Getting to the Dera Reaches, or taking on the Control Core for Alwan, are both *painful*.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Actually if you have a few living tools to burn the best option is Gazaki-Uss.

[Kelandon]

According to the trainer guide, the Astoria and Alwan factions both teach you to create War Tralls after you've joined them and helped them out enough. There's also training available in Zephyr Oasis (for any Shaper faction) and in Dera South Shore (for rebel sympathisers, based on your leadership and reputation).

I looked at the trainer guide, but it looks as though you have to join a faction to get any of those trainers to train you in War Trall. I'm a little unclear on the Ellek'Sss situation, but it doesn't matter, because I haven't gotten to the Dera South Shore yet anyway. I broke into Gazaki-Uss and got the canister.

[Randomizer]

Ellek'Sss will help Rebel faction members, but it is late in the game.

[Kelandon]

All right, with the War Tralls and some creative use of running away so I could exit the zone at will as the battle went badly, I took down the Eye in the Western Passes and got my third level of Rot. Now, with a Rotdhizon, two War Tralls, and one surviving Wingbolt, I'm feeling a bit less underpowered. I still can't just obliterate everything in my path, but things are a bit better. I cleared my way to the third fort on the line. I think I'm going to try to do things in the southern part of the map for a bit and see what happens. I'll report back later.

 

I'd never noticed Rot acid immunity or Wingbolt magic resistance mattering so much in previous GFs. Is the degree to which immunities matter new for GF5, or was I just oblivious before?

[Lilith]

Wingbolt energy resistance was a pretty big deal in G4, but mostly against other Wingbolts or Gazers, since those were the main things that did significant energy damage.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Acid and poison immunity is certainly a big deal in G5 compared to the previous games, acid is a real killer in this game and almost no creation apart from the rotties survives it very well.

(well, Ur-Drakons do but you don't get them till the final area.)

[Hawat]

If you haven't, get the girdle of genius and the skein of wisdom (charm). The quicker you have enough essence for your endgame creation group, the more time they have to level up. One drayk is useful because they've got superb fire resistance. Given that you have four essence heavy creations already, three drayks (possibly one of them a cryodrayk) isn't a bad way to fill out the roster. Drayks, at high levels, have greater damage output than cryodrayks and are quite versatile. As a lifecrafter, you are wholly dependent on your creations, so equip accordingly. Projection Band, Lifeforce Gauntets (if you're tricky you could get the essence infused iron to upgrade to Lifecraft Gauntlets fairly soon, though it would be a tough fight), and thirsting knife are good places to start. Make sure you're buffed before beginning tough fights (switching to blessing buffing gear before buffing up right before a fight then immediately switching back is a good idea). Once you've leveled up high enough, you can afford the intelligence loss of switching to the projection belt. The Transference Suit comes a bit closer to endgame, but is very handy also.

[Kelandon]

I've now gotten myself two Rotdhizons, two War Tralls, and one very long-lasting Wingbolt. I'm keeping the Wingbolt around mostly because every now and then it's handy to have something that does/resists magic damage, and it's usually still pretty good in combat, but it's clearly the weakest of the lot in terms of taking damage.

 

I've also gotten to the point where all three Rebel factions want me to swear to them. I haven't gotten to that point with the Shaper factions, which is my next task. Then I'll have to, you know, make a decision. I did end up using Greta to boost my Rebel cred, largely because Ghaldring will offer you Rebel quests based on reputation and Leadership, but Litalia seems to consider only reputation.

 

I'm at level 40 now, which I think means that I'm getting close to maxing out. Given that the factions are clamoring for me, I think that means I'm approaching the endgame, although I still can't kill a freaking Unbound. When I join a faction, though, I'll get another level of War Trall, make some Shock Tralls, and see what happens.

 

It seems as though it's much easier to join some factions than others, which I think is weird. Joining the Trakovites seems to be just about the easiest thing in the world, but joining Rawal might still be a little too hard for me yet. Killing Platano seems nontrivial. Same with joining Alwan.

 

Wait, duh, I just realized something. This whole time, I thought that there were five factions, but aren't there six? Three Shaper (Rawal, Alwan, Taygen) and three Rebel (Trakovite, Ghaldring, Astoria)? The game explicitly says in a loading screen that there are five, though. (If the answer to this involves spoiling the ending—i.e. two of the factions are secretly the same—don't bother, but if this is an error, I'd be interested to know.)

[Lilith]

Wait, duh, I just realized something. This whole time, I thought that there were five factions, but aren't there six? Three Shaper (Rawal, Alwan, Taygen) and three Rebel (Trakovite, Ghaldring, Astoria)? The game explicitly says in a loading screen that there are five, though. (If the answer to this involves spoiling the ending—i.e. two of the factions are secretly the same—don't bother, but if this is an error, I'd be interested to know.)

 

It's not an error.

 

 

One of those paths doesn't have a true ending associated with it.

 

[Randomizer]

Rawal has an ending, but it's different from the other Shaper ones. There is a seventh ending but it's even worse.

 

Attack a friendly in certain places and there is an auto kill node ending when you are hunted down and the control tool is used.

 

[Kelandon]

Rawal didn't seem as though he was going to turn out well, so I guess that's not much of a surprise. I keep wanting to call him "Barzahl," which gives you some idea what I think of him.

 

What takes down Rotdhizons? The problem I keep having in Control Core B is that I can kill everything else but the Rots, and those are doing enough damage to my Rots that I can't handle the other waves. I've made it as far as into the fifth of the six waves, but by the end, my Rots are down to basically no health and are running off, confused, while my other creations can't do enough damage to the Rots to make any difference. And then one of the minds dies, and I restart.

 

I've gotten Alpha and Beta to agree to help me, and i can fight off the Gamma wave easily. The Rots in the other waves are giving me hell, though.

[Randomizer]

I think Rots take cold damage worse than anything else. Best if you can do it is charm to make them fight each other while you deal with the main problem of the minds.

[Kelandon]

Charm! This must be the piece that I've been missing this whole time. I think I read that Charm was particularly effective at one point, but I ignored it because I was having trouble with golems and such at the time, for which it would make no difference.

 

I finally made it to Ellek-Sss, and it turns out that you don't have to have joined a faction to get her to train you. This is kind of important. Ellek-Sss, as Lilith said above, trains based on reputation and Leadership, not based on Rebel faction membership. (Faction will also do it, but it's not necessary.) So now I can make Shock Tralls.

 

I went back to the Fens to the Unbound city to see if I could now take down an Unbound with four Shock Tralls, and the answer is still no. Clearly I need to play more with Mental Magic, because right now I just don't see why I can't do this.

[Dikiyoba]

Hmm. Do you have regeneration aura on your creations? Are you fighting the unbound one at a time? And using at least one creation to pin the unbound to a wall and melee it so the unbound prefers to use its much weaker melee attack over its ranged attack?

 

Dikiyoba played the entire game on normal without any mental magic whatsoever, so it is possible (although the challenge areas involved far, far too much reloading).

[Kelandon]

I'm playing on Torment, so Regeneration Aura is pretty much irrelevant. An Unbound gets two attacks per turn and can kill any of my creatures with those two attacks. I don't know what people are saying with this "much weaker melee attack" thing, though. I've read about that, but when I did manage to pin the thing against a wall, its melee attack was maybe 75% of its ranged attack. That still kills any of my creations in two hits (i.e. one turn).

 

I did finally manage to take down Control Core B with a lot of Charm spells and copious use of spores. I've now gotten to the point where the five major factions all want me to join. I'm tempted to go kill Platano and then find out the disaster that is Rawal's path, but I think maybe I'll join Astoria and see where that takes me.

[Lilith]

Unbound attack with energy and have zero resistance to energy damage themselves, so a horde of Wingbolts or Gazers is perfect for dealing with them. Tralls should be able to do it too, though.

[Randomizer]

You might not want to do this with your game, but I had a high resistance high health player character pin the Unbound against the wall. The other thing is to stun it out of some of it's attacks.

[Hawat]

It's a bit surprising you had such trouble with Control Core B. In my current play-through (torment), the Rots there were no trouble at lvl 32 (fire creation only shaper), though I did have to burn a curing spore for each one I killed to clear up the acid they splash on death (haven't got cleanse group yet). The unbound really shouldn't be giving you such a hard time either. I'm thinking something may be going wrong with your equipment, skill allocation or tactics.

 

In control core B, did you take out the western rogue groups before challenging synthesis mind? With the Unbound, have you tried buffing your wingbolt with essence armor and then sending it in first to sort of duel the Unbound for a round before engaging with your other creations? What do your skill levels (particularly shaping skills and intelligence) and equipment look like? What buffs do you use before combat? Do you use ensnaring fibers and such for tough fights?

 

You mentioned that you'd tried four Shock Tralls, so I'm guessing you'd absorbed some of your other creations. That may not have been wise (leveled up creations are much more useful), but it would give you an opportunity to re-do your creation mix. I'd recommend at least one Gazer - they're a hard counter to unbound, cryodrayks, drayks and podlings and a soft counter to drakons, making them awfully useful. Also, for endgame purposes it just doesn't make sense, IMHO, to run with less than 7 creations. Use more drayks and fewer essence heavy creations if essence cost is a problem. A leveled, buffed drayk will do 200+ damage a shot, average (assuming you're wearing creation buffing gear), for only 60 essence. Two drayks will do way more damage than one war trall.

[Brocktree]

I found Control Core B incredibly difficult for when it appears in the game. If you don't utilise mental magic, I have no idea how you'd complete it on Torment.

[Hawat]

Basically, damage. One tank creation and lots of damage dealing creations. For instance, in the current playthrough, I've got one drakon, two cryodrayks and 4 drayks. Buffed, they do around 1,500-1,600 damage/turn. The drakon tanks stuff, the player character heals the drakon, the drayks melt the monsters. Also, clear out the rots, patchworks and war tralls before dueling the synthesis mind. I've also done it (again with no mental magic and torment difficulty), at a bit higher character level, with one gazer, 5 vlish and a plated artilla (this was an experiment with really high levels of magic shaping, so they were all higher level than is normal). It worked, but it was a bit tricky due to the lower aggregate damage output and limited range of damage types. It's much easier with drayks.

 

A bit off the topic, but I think fire creations get a bad rap. They're a powerful, versatile group, and drayks and ur-drakons are just awesome (and you can get ur-drakons with a whole lot of game left if you simply rush to endgame then back out of inner gazaki-uss after using the necessary canister). Even without ur-drakons, for most of the mid-late game, a party two kayshaaks, one drakon, two drayks and two cryodrayks smoothly handles anything you throw it at, even without mental magic. You have both damage in and resistance to cold, fire, energy, and physical, good total damage output, lightning status, and most of the damage is ranged, which is tactically useful. Named gazers are a pain, but I'm pretty sure they are just always a pain, and the kyshaaks tank well enough to do the job.

[Lilith]

Kyshakks are kind of bad in my experience: they have lots of HP, but their damage output isn't great, and their low resistances mean that they'll die easier than their HP would suggest. Also, on Torment they have problems with accuracy.

 

Other fire creations range from excellent to so-so. Cryoas are great for the early game, Roamers are okay but kind of feel like slightly inferior Vlish, Drayks are very solid throughout the midgame but their fragility and lack of resistances outside of fire eventually becomes a problem, Cryodrayks are useful in certain circumstances (they do well against gazers and a few other enemies that are only vulnerable to cold) but have low damage output for the point in the game where you get them, and Drakons are powerful but overpriced.

 

Really, the main "problem" with fire creations is that War Tralls become available halfway through the game and have the power of a fifth-tier creation for the cost of a fourth-tier one, which kind of forces the other two shaping schools to work to justify their existence from that point on.

[Hawat]

I think perhaps those observations are more true if you've invested in more than one shaping branch. The fire creations work extremely well together. A Kyshaak, all things being equal, just isn't as good as a War Trall for the same essence cost. But within an all-fire creation play-through, the kyshaak fills a needed role. It resists and deals energy damage, and applies lightning. There are fights that would be very, very tough for fire creation only characters without kyshaaks (or ur-drakons, but they do come a bit later). Drakons make outstanding all-around tanks, even if for their essence cost their damage isn't inspiring. Their ability to act as a damage sponge is valuable because, as you you mention, drayks can only take a couple decent hits. Cyrodrayks are usually a bit underwhelming (greater essence cost and less damage than drayks), but there are times when either the cold damage or cold resistance are useful. By the time the relative fragility of drayks becomes an issue, you can have ur-drakons which are superb tanks (and your drayks will be around lvl 50 and not all that fragile).

 

Focusing on one shaping branch, you can raise the shaping skill to 10 or so and have that skill point investment improve all seven of your creations. Roamers are kinda awful, but it's not that hard to either use cryoas through the stoneworks or stealth through to the kyshaak canister in the secret lab (that one does take a bit of patience but is quite doable). Higher creation levels also help with accuracy issues.

 

Compared to for instance magic shaping, vlish and gazers are awesome but every other creation is underwhelming, and the set of creations doesn't synergize well together. Not much in the way of mixed damage types or resistances. Battle creations are good, but offer no elemental damage at all and nothing than can tank energy damage. Fire creations to me seem more of a harmonious, stand alone group (which might be why the skill is more expensive - the one big downside of the fire branch).

 

I do wonder whether a gazer might not be a better bet than a kyshaak though, even for a character with level ten skill in fire shaping and one + six from items in magic shaping. I'd think the much higher level, lower essence kyshaak is probably the correct call, but it's tricky.

 

Edit: Didn't notice your paragraph on fire creations versus war tralls before posting. That's certainly a valid point, but in my vastly more limited experience (for anyone reading, trust anything Lilith says over anything I say) drayks are more essence efficient than war tralls mid-game (two drayks cost one less essence than one war trall and do way more damage) and ur-drakons are more powerful than war tralls mid-late game. A few opponents heavily resist physical damage also, which would seem to present issues for a battle-creation only user.

[Lilith]

Yeah, I imagine how and to what extent you invest skill points in shaping will make a significant difference. My first playthrough was with a Sorceress, so I made a minimal investment in shaping skills but pumped Intelligence heavily for spell energy and essence. This meant I could make a full team of seven war tralls not too long after having access to them, and that using lower-tier creations into the late game wasn't a winning proposition due to the lack of level bonuses from shaping skill leaving them underlevelled.

 

Enemies with very high physical resistance do exist, but they're rare: the two or three times I ran into enemies with near-total immunity to physical damage, I was able to deal with them using my main character's battle magic.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

@Hawat

You do actually realize that you can't have Ur-Drakons till the last area of the game without cheating?

Also while two Drayks will slightly outperform the War Trall in terms of damage, the Trall is a much much better tank.

Also having at least one Rotdhizon simplifies the game to a great extent with their acid resistance.

I agree about the Kyshakk though, it's a bit underwhelming at lower levels but quickly becomes a monster at higher levels where the limitations of low hit chance and limited energy disappear, It's almost certainly better than a wing bolt and probably not much worse than a Gazer provided you keep them for some time.

Al in all, I think that while Fire creations are good, they are not as good as Battle creations.

[Hawat]

SPOILERS

 

"The last area of the game", Inner Gazaki-Uss, contains the canister, but the combat choke point for getting there (Alwan faction) is actually Control Core B, which can be beaten on torment not too far past level 30. Nearly every other quest to get to the canister can be stealthed, and you've got help in the entrance to gazaki-uss and gazaki-uss which can carry you to inner gazki-uss. Slip in, take a glance at the end boss, use the canister, go back out. You've got a lot of game left to have fun with your new ur-drakons.

 

Drayks are for damage, not tanking. Fortunately it's not too hard to keep most incoming attacks focused on a designated tank (either your drakon or kyshaak, depending on whether the enemy is doing energy damage or not). Realistically, it's tough to have enough essence for 7 war tralls early - that's 1,001 essence assuming you want control of them. A couple of designated tanks (drakon and kyshaak) and a bunch of drayks will tend to be more powerful than an equivalent essence cost rot/trall force.

 

I think perhaps the perception that battle creations>fire creations is partly due to people not knowing/caring that you can get ur-drakons and not end the game five minutes later. Ur-Drakons are really, really good. They have great resistances and do sick damage, and leave lightning aura. Mosquito, have you actually tried them?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Mosquito, have you actually tried them?

Yes I have, and they are superb in both offense and defense, but the point you are missing is that if you go the way you are telling me to, you are forced to choose your faction early in the game without exploring many areas beforehand which might influence what you want to do, although yeah from a strictly min-max. view point nothing beats them.

Also a shaper will generally manage to have 1000 points of essence about 6-7/10th into the game and after that the Trall-Rothdhizon party will outperform the Fire creation party, you are also missing how much of a pain poison/acid is in the game and none of the fire creations except the Ur-Drakons do well against it.

(Basically if you get the Ur-Drakon's early fire creations are equal or probably superior than Battle, without them they are not.)

[Kelandon]

The conclusion that I'm drawing is that Jeff did a much better job of balancing GF5 than he did of balancing, say, Avadon or Avernum 1 (not A:EFTP). We get a rather large amount of disagreement about what to do in GF5. Most of the hardcore min-maxers say that creations are relatively strong and Battle creations are good, but there's no consensus around the general approach one should take.

 

Come to think of it, the totally unbalancing approaches in Jeff's games have tended to hinge on the same thing: don't get hit. In Avadon, Dex is so strong because you don't get hit. In Avernum 1, Gymnastics makes a lot of combats a joke because you don't get hit. One of the ways people got such crazy results in BoE (I'm told) was by blessing so many times that you couldn't get hit.

 

This is one way that a game can be broken, but not the only way. It's conceivable that you could do so much damage that it wouldn't matter whether you got hit or not, because the opponent would only get in one hit anyway. It's conceivable that you could have so much health that getting hit was irrelevant. But Jeff's games rarely seem to depend on either of these approaches. The best strategy is not to get hit.

 

Come to think of it, that was what everyone was going on about with Parry in some set of games, but I never quite followed which ones it was.

 

The biggest problem I'm having in GF5 is that I get hit a lot, and I can't seem to avoid it. The Lifecrafter can't seem to do anything but make creations that get hit all the time. The closest we get is having good immunities, such that some hits matter a lot less than others. But once I get hit by something that does huge amounts of damage (Unbound, Rotdhizons, Eyebeasts) or renders an effect that I can't do much about (poison, acid, lightning aura), I'm in a lot of trouble pretty quickly.

[Lilith]

Come to think of it, that was what everyone was going on about with Parry in some set of games, but I never quite followed which ones it was.

 

Parry was at its strongest in Geneforge 2, where having it maxed out gives you a 75% chance to fully block melee attacks and a 50% chance to fully block missile attacks, and gives you a chance to reduce the damage you take even if the attack gets through at all. It's useful in every SW game where it exists, though: spending a few skill points to block 30% or more of all melee attacks directed at you is always going to look like a pretty decent proposition.

 

The biggest problem I'm having in GF5 is that I get hit a lot, and I can't seem to avoid it. The Lifecrafter can't seem to do anything but make creations that get hit all the time. The closest we get is having good immunities, such that some hits matter a lot less than others. But once I get hit by something that does huge amounts of damage (Unbound, Rotdhizons, Eyebeasts) or renders an effect that I can't do much about (poison, acid, lightning aura), I'm in a lot of trouble pretty quickly.

 

Making tough creations to get hit in your place is almost as good as not getting hit, provided you can keep them healed. This is half the reason why creations are good in every Geneforge game, the other half being that a squad of creations will pump out way more damage per round than you can on your own.

[Hawat]

I think it's pretty close to a consensus that mental magic + war tralls is a good approach in G5. Mental magic is the closest thing to a G5 "don't get hit" method due to its crowd control capabilities. War tralls are powerful, versatile and cheaper than they ought to be. I just don't think it's the only valid option.

 

Personally what I love in G5 is seeing how powerful I can make my creations. Every equipment decision, skill point expenditure, even what faction I join, is dictated by increasing the power of my creations. So I end up with an incredibly weak player character with no personal damage or crowd control ability protected by monstrous creations soaking up hits and dealing massive damage. I don't claim it's the optimal approach, but it works and is fun.

 

Going all-out for powerful creations (+4 character attribute gloves instead of +5 magic skill, crafting the +4 shaping skill belt and pushing shaping skill to it's end level asap to give creations longer to level up, wearing the projection belt and transference suit, etc) you can push out enough damage that enemies drop before getting too many hits in, which is a form of defense also I suppose. It's particularly useful against enemies that cast acid, poison or lightning - never give them the chance.

 

I agree that G5 is unusually well balanced, and with Brocktree that fire creations are equal to or better than battle creations if you rush for ur-drakons, otherwise battle creations are preferable.

[Kelandon]

Well, I finally managed to take down an Unbound all by myself without burning through tons of spores and letting my creations die. (I'd done it previously with some assistance from nearby guards, too.) The key thing seemed to be to get it to run away enough that it only fired off a missile attack once per round, and then to back it against a wall with my Rots. My Rots could actually take one missile hit per round or two melee hits per round, though barely, and only if I healed them heavily, and only if I managed my attacks and buffs just right.

 

I'm getting to the endgame now (Astoria faction), and I'm finding the approach to Gazaki-Uss to be more of a problem that it seems like it ought to be. It's not as though I can't make it through; I just keep screwing up one little thing, being a little too aggressive and attacking when I should fall back and heal or something like that, and then the drayks kill my PC. This is kind of a cool fight, but I'm finding that I don't like it very much, because it's too hard.

 

This leads me to believe that I probably shouldn't be playing on Torment. I don't think I enjoyed GF5 as much as I might have, because I really should've played it on Hard. But I'm nearly done, so I think I'll just tough out the final sequence.

[Hawat]

You might consider dropping it down to hard. What comes next is worse, if the drayks are giving you trouble. Preemptive suggestions:

 

SPOILERS

 

Use the pyramid formation with your player character in the back. Make sure you bring enough leadership buffing gear to get to 10. Clear the entry area first, then go back and ask for help. Try to let the soldier and battle gammas tank. Bring essence pods. Hold your rots back until the battle gammas engage the line, or else they'll get shredded. If you have open roster slots, consider a drayk or two - nothing tanks drakons better (including your own drakons). If the allied kyshaaks pick out a gazer, take it down fast so they'll retarget something they can actually damage. On torment, at one point, you'll be up against around 8k incoming raw damage/turn. You've either got to use mental magic to reduce that or deal enough damage to whittle down the enemy force while the battle gammas live. Your allies can mostly win this for you, you just need to support them adequately.

[Kelandon]

To be fair, I'm probably going to go back and clear other areas now. It doesn't appear that I actually have to go to Gazaki-Uss yet, and I'm only level 42, so I could stand to gain another few levels. I still haven't dealt with the Unbound in the Fens, and I haven't explored the Secret Laboratory at all. And optional areas? What optional areas? I haven't even found those yet.

 

Crafting does seem to have made a little bit of a difference. My creations jumped another 4 levels with crafting items, because I had such high skill levels with items that I could reabsorb them and get them higher still.

 

This suggests to me that I pumped Int too soon and Shaping skills too late. I kept some semblance of balance, but in hindsight, I probably should've leaned heavily on Shaping skills first and Int only later. Oh well. Too late now. Maybe I'll play through GF5 again someday with better min-maxing.

 

Uh, being somewhat dense, I ask: what does one do with the Shaped blades and armor? Do you just stick those items with "[blah blah] enhancement" on them (such as spines)? If so, they're useless for my Lifecrafter, no?

[Randomizer]

There are two access crystals that open the bunker in the southeast of the Okavano Barrier. This is a really tough expert area.

 

Shaped armor and blades are normal item enhancement so you can sell them.

[Student of Trinity]

Yeah, the G5 expert area is probably the toughest of all of them, though it arguably makes the least sense plot-wise for it to be there.

[Kelandon]

I'm now finding the same odd thing that I've been noticing throughout all of GF5: even in the endgame, I hit a wall and can't get past an area, so I backtrack to other areas that I couldn't deal with before, finish them, and use my additional strength to make it through the area that I couldn't get past earlier.

 

I think I've put my finger on why I find this so odd, too. It draws focus. It does nothing but draw focus. I just had an exciting encounter with the Shaper Council that had end-of-game screens. They tell me to make haste to the assault on Gazaki-Uss. Time is of the essence. I'm going to assassinate Ghaldring and end this war. But what's the first thing that I do? Go back to the Mera Fens and kill Unbound. And next? I wander off to the Secret Laboratory and kill a drakon who's trying to create deadly bugs. I'm not exactly sure when I'm going to kill Ghaldring, but it's certainly not right now. And that's kind of the feeling I've had for the whole game.

 

So next I'm going to try to get to the Dera Lost Vault. If I can't do that, I'll try to gain one more level first, or maybe craft another artifact, and then try again. After that, I may try to kill Ghaldring. Or I may stall a little longer and explore some more. But I'm definitely not going straight to the assault on Gazaki-Uss, which just feels weird to me.

 

I think that's part of what I liked about the linearity of Avadon. Not matter what you say about Avadon, you can't say that it draws focus in the way that GF5 does.

[Randomizer]

Jeff started with Geneforge 4 and Avernum 5 having mini boss areas that you needed to return to later in the game when you are much more powerful than the first time you enter the area. I think Nethergate: Resurrection was the last game until Avadon where you could complete the game without doing most of the side quests on normal difficulty.

 

It doesn't help that beta testers only get the game in sections so we tend to do everything while waiting for the next part. This makes for higher level characters than players going through along the main quest path.