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I bring you a most important message


keira

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Bad wolf is an important message for every boards... Sylae shows us why a wolf is bad, because it is a bad wolf, and why a bad is wolf, because it is a bad wolf... It is a very vital message to a burning board...

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-A

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Originally Posted By: Miramor
Fail post is full of fail!

I followed "New Who" for a while, but eventually gave up. Too much cheese, too much silliness, Britney Spears soundtracks didn't help.

Had some great stuff though, e.g. almost all of The Empty Child.


How far did you get? I didn't start watching New Who till David was on the set and I distinctly remember thinking it was way better than it started.
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Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black

How far did you get? I didn't start watching New Who till David was on the set and I distinctly remember thinking it was way better than it started.


A little into the second season. Then I skipped over a lot of episodes, then I stopped watching. I was very annoyed that they got rid of Christopher Eccleston... In retrospect, that was probably because angsty 18-year-old me loved his tough-guy exterior. These days I prefer heroes who have less Manly Stereotype about them.

Looking back:

- The romance between Rose and the Doctor strikes me as fanfic-ish, and generally just cliched and way off. Also weird and creepy, especially for a "family friendly" show... I mean, the Doctor is an ancient, alien time traveler, and Rose, though resourceful, was really young and naive.

- The plots were all over the place, often literally, and character interaction tended towards hyperactive.

- Too much deus ex machina, too much unexplained coincidence. At times the Doctor seemed to get things accomplished while stumbling over his own feet. Mind, that's a terrific missed opportunity... I mean, he's a time traveler. He can go forward or backward in time to set things up for his past or future self, so that he comes out on top in seemingly impossible situations. Repeated failures to incorporate that into the plots make me a sad SF buff.
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Originally Posted By: Miramor
- Too much deus ex machina, too much unexplained coincidence. At times the Doctor seemed to get things accomplished while stumbling over his own feet. Mind, that's a terrific missed opportunity... I mean, he's a time traveler. He can go forward or backward in time to set things up for his past or future self, so that he comes out on top in seemingly impossible situations. Repeated failures to incorporate that into the plots make me a sad SF buff.


While they're not really explained, at least in New Who, it is made clear that there are limitations on the Doctor's abilities, as well as on time travel in general. There exist fixed points, which cannot be altered. Also, because non-fixed time can be rewritten (for the most part), going ahead to see what happens and how to fix things doesn't work. In the newest episode, they actually play well on what happens when the Doctor knows what is going to happen. It isn't pretty.

Also, he seems to have an internal code of what is and is not acceptable. Keep in mind that he's been doing this for centuries. If there were better ways to go about things, he probably would have figured them out by now.


I realize that I'm giving these explanations greater suspension of disbelief that I do explanations for most sci-fi. I guess that's because I really enjoy watching Who, so I'm okay with taking their word for why things work (or why they don't).
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Doctor Who is sort of fantasy in sci-fi garb (sometimes not even much of that- see "The Shakespeare Code" or "Tooth and Claw"). Seen in that light, it's easier to accept its tendency not to explain everything. I have to hold my temper in at Futurama for some of the same things.

 

For those of you disenchanted, although I wholeheartedly accept that not everything is for everybody, I invite you to try some of the episodes that won me over when I was a bit underwhelmed: "The Girl in the Fireplace", "Blink", "The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon". And yeah, they're all written by Steven Moffat. If you don't know who he is, check out "Sherlock" and perhaps "Coupling".

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Originally Posted By: Actaeon
Doctor Who is sort of fantasy in sci-fi garb (sometimes not even much of that- see "The Shakespeare Code" or "Tooth and Claw"). Seen in that light, it's easier to accept its tendency not to explain everything. I have to hold my temper in at Futurama for some of the same things.


bro futurama is a wacky animated comedy from the creator of the simpsons, why were you expecting serious science from it in the first place
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Originally Posted By: Miramor
He can go forward or backward in time to set things up for his past or future self...


Did you miss the episode where Rose goes to see her dad? The new Who set up pretty early how that kind of thing is a bad idea for him.

Besides... it's funner to watch him stumble over his own feet and still come out on top. Gives me hope for myself. tongue
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Originally Posted By: Actaeon
I would like to assert that the Silence are scarier than the Weeping Angels. Anyone care to disagree?


Yes. The Weeping Angels are freaking terrifying, especially in 'Blink' (they remain scary in greater numbers, but never as scary, in my opinion). The idea that they could be anywhere you're not looking, plus the amazing speed, and the fact they only have to touch you to kill you makes them much scarier than some tall gangly things that you forget once you've seen them.

I think in-universe the angels are portrayed as more terrifying too; the Doctor never really beats them, he just has to run away. They have no weakness; as Tennant says, "you can't hurt a stone". And, they have one advantage over pretty much every living creature; eventually you have to blink, or drop your gaze. And they can wait for as long as it takes for you to do that; the only thing that can hold a gaze for as long as a Weeping Angel is another Weeping Angel, and guess what? You're not one of them.

The Silence, on the other hand are pretty easily trounced as soon as somebody sticks a hard drive onto their eye.
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Originally Posted By: Jerakeen
I think Nikki has this right, although I can think of several ways to "hurt" a stone.


What, can't the sonic screwdriver whip up some thermite or plastic explosive? I'd think that would be pretty effective in taking out errant statuary...
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Originally Posted By: Jerakeen
Plus, honestly, the Silence look slightly ridiculous in their suits and ties.


*stops adoring Slender for a moment* You have a problem with suits and ties?





I have a bunker with crap loads of food if the earth ever decides to turn off it's gravity and fling us into the sky. Screw the bottomless pit.
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Originally Posted By: Jerakeen
I think Nikki has this right, although I can think of several ways to "hurt" a stone.


Paper wraps stone.

Apparently Christo and Jeanne-Claude are saving us all from Weeping Angels. Or at least from weeping buildings and bridges, which must be an even greater threat.

It sounds as though Doctor Who has come rather a long way from the days I remember, when the Cybermen lurched around in tinfoil and the Daleks looked about as threatening as shopping carts.
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Originally Posted By: Tyranicus
Snip


On the one hand, I'm miffed you posted that before me: I tend to post it maybe once a month on my Facebook page (currently twice sonfar this month!), and wanted to do so here. On the other hand, I cannot be mad at Neil Patrick Harris, and especially not at Barney.

Suits are indeed awesome, and suiting up is my favourite pastime by far. tongue
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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
It sounds as though Doctor Who has come rather a long way from the days I remember, when the Cybermen lurched around in tinfoil and the Daleks looked about as threatening as shopping carts.


The Daleks and the Cybermen remain, to my mind, among the least interesting enemies of the Doctor. The effects have certainly improved, although I'm not sure James Cameron would give them his stamp of approval. The writing varies from episode to episode, providing a range from just as campy as the old ones to television gold.
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That's a funny point. As I remember the series in the Tom Baker epoch (4th Doctor), it generally was quite interesting — but the enemies were rarely what made it so. It was normally the situation that was intriguing, and the Doctor's response to it. The enemies themselves weren't much more interesting than a rock, but the stories would put the Doctor under a rock about to fall, and he would find a way to stop it or escape.

 

The single scene that sticks most in my mind, after all these years, had some setup about the Doctor on Gallifrey looking for a tremendous artifact with the outward form of an ordinary key. The Doctor is President, so he can just order the key handed over; but he has to get the Time Lord officials to comply.

 

Eventually he corners some chancellor dude in some office where there's a wall display holding hundreds of keys all jumbled together, and the old guy reluctantly picks out one totally undistinguished key among them, and tremulously hands it over. So you're thinking, Huh, those clever Time Lords, hiding the ultimate super-key in plain sight, in a jumble of ordinary keys. But as soon as the Doctor gets the key, he flings it angrily aside. This itself was dramatic; Tom Baker's Doctor was never angry.

 

The chancellor-guy slumps, opens a desk drawer, and pulls out another key, also totally undistinguished-looking. He hands this one over; it's the real one. So the clever-hide-in-plain-sight deal was itself just an even cleverer blind, but the Doctor somehow saw through it immediately.

 

You can get a summary of the whole story by googling; apparently it was the 'Invasion of Time' series. The scene with the keys has stuck in my mind for over thirty years.

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Originally Posted By: Miramor
Originally Posted By: Slenderman.

I have a bunker with crap loads of food if the earth ever decides to turn off it's gravity and fling us into the sky. Screw the bottomless pit.


Something tells me that wouldn't work very well...


If he was smart he would of built it upside down.
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Okay, so I just had to rant somewhere and this seemed the most appropriate place.

 

For some reason my DVR did not record the latest DrWho episode, The Angels Take Manhattan, so after trying to find it elsewhere for two weeks I finally break down and spend two bucks for the rights to watch it over and over on Amazon. I just can't contain how...

 

 

...disappointed I was with all the plot holes... I mean really, so the Doctor can't ever go anywhere again in New York. I can believe that; incorporate it into the cannon... but WHY can't he meet them in Jersey? Even if it was set up that it was no longer safe or possible for the Doctor to enter the entire state of New York without ripping a hole in the fabric of time... what's keeping Amy and Rory from hopping a train or a boat or a stagecoach and going somewhere that the Doctor CAN travel? It just makes no sense that the brilliant Doctor cannot see this very simple solution.

 

How they should have written it: Knowing that the Doctor would never actually give up so easily or abandon Amy and Rory to the past, it would have been so much better/more dramatic/believable if they just decided they didn't want to travel with him anymore. I mean Rory would do "anything" to save Amy and they both nearly died committing suicide so why not just get in the Doctor's face and tell him they're saving each other by never travelling with him again? The rejection would still give Matt plenty of drama to work with. They've been thinking about it all season and poor ole Rory's dad just asked the doctor to keep them safe. It could have even been the Doctor's decision after seeing them willing to kill themselves to save the world... That easily could have kicked in the Doctor's own protective instinct to leave them behind for good. So many GOOD ways to play it, they had to go with the plot hole riddled ending...

 

Other asides, since when can the doctor use his regeneration energy to heal someone? I know it's how River saved him from the poison, but she had recently regenerated. The energy was ripe for the giving, then. IF the doctor had this ability to give some of his life energy to heal others he would be long dead by now saving every character on the brink of death that he cared about. If nothing else, at least his daughter in season 4. (Which, I really want to know when he's going to meet her again. Awfully big opening left just hanging there...) Saying he has this ability now just is not plausible.

 

Another aside, how was River going to get the book to Amy to publish and for her to write an afterward in when they could never see them again? What, so, they could travel back in time and send them a manuscript for a book, but they couldn't send them a note saying, "Hey, we're just a short drive away. Come over here so we can go travelling again."?

 

Final bit, After the heartfelt first/last kiss while River was still in jail, how does that work with the pardoned older River running around with the older Doctor. I thought they were supposed to be going in opposite directions. I know they didn't show River and the Doctor kissing in the episode, but they obviously could have without messing up the time stream. River is supposed to be getting younger in their encounters but apart from the whole 'best friend' reveal, she hasn't seemed younger at all. Poor planning, I say...

 

Edit: I would have been happier if they had actually died. Much more believable.

 

 

And /rant.

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He can't see them again because he had already read that the cemetery in New York was the scene of their last goodbye (which was clearly stated in the book). To go back and see them (even in another location) would create a paradox. That's where the emotional drama of the episode actually comes from; they're still alive, but unreachable. It's made clear throughout the entire episode that once we know our own future, we HAVE to follow it through (and heck, the whole notion of "spoilers" in the River Song arc (and the whole Library episodes) bring home this point. The Doctor is terrified of spoilers).

 

I guess this is why River can travel back and see them, too: we don't actually know where we are in her timeline at this point (she mentions she's a professor, which is she in the Library episodes so we can infer that it's pretty late on for her), but her timeline is *never* in sync with the Doctor's. There's every chance she sees Rory and Amy again before she dies in the Library in which to hand over the book.

 

I mean, eh, it's not perfect, but I think it's more internally consistent than it might appear. Also you didn't note the biggest issue (literally): how the heck did the Statue of Liberty move without anybody in New York City seeing it?!

 

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