What Faction do you support?

[RaustBlackDragon]

I suppose the biggest annoyance for me with G3 was that a significant portion, at least half, of the shaper/rebel alignment questions you get asked pertain to servile rights, even though it quickly becomes apparent that this is only the tip of the iceberg. I wish they'd ask questions on some other topics rather than assuming that I support the rebels by expressing compassionate views about creations.

 

That's really the worst part, the fact that in G3 the shapers come across as incredibly creepy, intolerant, paranoid and obsessive. I said absolutely nothing critical of the way Shapers run things, only that I would not personally mistreat any serviles under my care. And yet word of these responses spread like wildfire, and these kinds of sentiments seem to deeply disturb almost any shaper I talk to. It's just incredibly weird, and felt almost like a glitch in the code or something.

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

The first "intelligent servile" encounter with a servile named

 

Hanna, in the Greenwood Academy, I said she was a traitor and killed her. After that impulsive attack, I began to mellow out.

 

[Dikiyoba]

That's really the worst part, the fact that in G3 the shapers come across as incredibly creepy, intolerant, paranoid and obsessive. I said absolutely nothing critical of the way Shapers run things, only that I would not personally mistreat any serviles under my care. And yet word of these responses spread like wildfire, and these kinds of sentiments seem to deeply disturb almost any shaper I talk to. It's just incredibly weird, and felt almost like a glitch in the code or something.

Shapers are intolerant, paranoid, and obsessive. They've been paranoid and obsessive since G1, and intolerant since G2. They want complete control of and authority over anything related to Shaping and creations, including the treatment of serviles. That doesn't start to change until they get worried that they might lose the war in G4 and G5.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

A fair number of them are also nice to their creations, though. It would be fair to say that the dialogue options don't always mesh well with the binary Rebel/Shaper reputation scale.

[Catoblepas]

This is true, I don't think anyoen is going to argue that the Shapers do not have these traits (although I would argue that the rebel hierarchy suffers from these exact same problems, some to an even greater degree, as well as their own, unique problems).

 

It's a shame that the player never really gets the chance to express anything like a moderate shaper stance however. It is true that a lot of moderate shapers don't end up in a good position in the end-exiled like Kyryk for example. However, I don't think it is too far-fetched for there to have been such an option considering the existance of the Trakovite faction. Even if it resulted in the main character being exiled to some desert or a swamp island in the middle of nowhere instead of being hailed as a hero, it would be nice to see the character have the option to take such a stance.

 

I seem to recall Alwan in G3 (might have been G4) confiding in the player at one point that although he took a hardline, unquestioning stance, he wasn't blind to the existance of the various problems, just that war was the wrong time to create divisions amongst the shapers, and that reform might be possible post-war. I think It would have been neat to see something like that as possible in the epilogue for moderate shapers.

 

In my opinion the shapers are the faction that could most easily be salvaged, so It's a shame to see the rebels beign so ever-changing and giving the player so many ways to express differing ideologies (with the exception of G3) while Shapers never really get that option, even on a single issue such as servile rights. Even Alwan considers the relationship between shaper and creation to be one like parent and child, so it seems odd that such a notion can gain so little traction amongst the shapers.

[The Reincarnated Baron von Steuben]

Yes, Catoblepas. All factions have their flaws. All factions also have their "pros", too.

[wackypanda]

Even Alwan considers the relationship between shaper and creation to be one like parent and child, so it seems odd that such a notion can gain so little traction amongst the shapers.

Did he mellow in G4 and G5? This certainly doesn't seem true of the Alwan in G3, where near the endgame (if he is present) he asks the PC what they intend to do after everything. If you say that you want to treat your creations with more kindness and compassion to prevent future wars, he chastises you for being weak and for having the attitude that led to the war to begin with, following up with "No offense". ("Well, I've always thought you were completely useless compared to my ranged creations. No offense.")

[Catoblepas]

He starts off pretty strict in G4, throwing rebels spies into cages to die and all that, but by the end of G4 he

makes a point to say that he considers the main character a 'shaper', and will follow through with his promise to do what he can to see that the main character isn't executed at the end of the war, including making the palyer essentially the governor of the resetttled turncoat rebels, with the Main character possibly even retaining their right to use their lifecrafting powers, if the alphas/betas in the ending picture are anything to go by.

 

 

In G4 he's even more reasonable

The character's cannister-junkie/possible former rebel background seems to be pretty much a non-issue, and in his ending he spares the defeated rebels instead of executing them, even ones like Greta and Akhiri Blaze, who were responsible for the fall of the Ashen Isles, the creation of theUr Drakons and unbound, Alwan's crippled state, and the Death of Miranda

 

 

Alwan is probably my favorite character from the last three games. He has a pretty rough exterior what with his hardline stance, but I think it shows that he only does the things he does because he feels it is the only way, and given the opportunity, he seems more than able and willing to show some compassion. On top

[RaustBlackDragon]

Sorry for the thread necro, but just wanted to add my two cents again:

 

There is, at bare minimum, one incredibly good thing to be said about the shapers: They are by far the most responsible group I have ever seen in all of video gaming, possibly in all of fiction. Geneforge 1 makes this exceptionally clear. Shapers know full well the risks of what they do, and they take all, I repeat, all of the necessary precautions to avoid massive catastrophic horrors being unleashed upon the world. It is a miraculous art that they wield, and they wield it with a care, caution and responsibility that is pretty much without peer.

 

The rebels, on the other hand, though they certainly have lofty ideals, wield their power with no such caution at all. If they were all a bunch of hippie liberals peaching pacifism and kindness, then we might have some semblance of an argument here, but they assuredly are nothing of the kind. It became obvious to me as early as Geneforge 2 that if the rebels (particularly the drakons) were ever to succeed in overthrowing the shapers, they would bring about a reign of tyranny so atrociously hypocritical and horrible that it disgusts me endlessly, and they wouldn't even have the shapers' incredible caution with the art of shaping. In short, if the shapers were ever to be violently overthrown, I'm quite certain that would be the worst concievable outcome ever for the entire Geneforge universe.

 

As a result, my general policy has been to side with the most creation-friendly faction available that does not have, on its list of goals, "overthrow shapers". This has been the awakened when available, and the shapers at all other times so far.

[wackypanda]

There is, at bare minimum, one incredibly good thing to be said about the shapers: They are by far the most responsible group I have ever seen in all of video gaming, possibly in all of fiction. Geneforge 1 makes this exceptionally clear. Shapers know full well the risks of what they do, and they take all, I repeat, all of the necessary precautions to avoid massive catastrophic horrors being unleashed upon the world. It is a miraculous art that they wield, and they wield it with a care, caution and responsibility that is pretty much without peer.

I have a bit of a problem with this. The entire plot of the games started because they found their art going places that they didn't want it to go, and their response was "Shut down everything, that never happened", making it possible for the dangerous knowledge to be discovered by people who were not even trying to discover it and who had to draw their own conclusions about whether that power was legitimate.

 

To draw parallels to a real-life situation (which always backfires ), this would be like cloning Dolly the sheep and then thinking "The same technique could be used to clone humans which is unethical for reasons XYZ, shut down everything that never happened", only for a scientist to stumble upon records of the cloning technique in a file cabinet that you never destroyed, and because you preferred to forget everything rather than impress into everyone trained as a scientist why you forbid cloning, he goes "Why is this hidden here? Having a clone of myself would be awesome!"

 

"Responsible" is not how I would describe someone who tackled problems with their art that way.

 

(As an aside, the Shapers certainly don't have a problem impressing into their acolytes that creations are tools, and that anyone who says otherwise is thinking ungood thoughts. So why do they have a problem conveying other important conclusions they draw about their art?)

[Student of Trinity]

We just had this argument a while ago so I don't want to undertake it again, but to state my contention in brief: I think the opposite is true. The Shapers are irresponsible, to the point that it looks like stupidity. They say they are careful and responsible. That's the incompetence talking. In fact their track record shows that their precautions are never enough, and yet in spite of their track record, they keep trying their crazy shaping tricks again — and claiming, again, each time, that they know what they're doing.

[Nim]

We just had this argument a while ago so I don't want to undertake it again, but to state my contention in brief: I think the opposite is true. The Shapers are irresponsible, to the point that it looks like stupidity. They say they are careful and responsible. That's the incompetence talking. In fact their track record shows that their precautions are never enough, and yet in spite of their track record, they keep trying their crazy shaping tricks again — and claiming, again, each time, that they know what they're doing.

And yet that track record is a necessity considering that this is a game. But yeah, we had this before, it's a pointless debate.

[Triumph]

I think it's a testimony to the quality of Jeff's writing that he presented the Shapers as such a multifaceted group that people can plausibly argue either way (i.e. that they were a highly responsible if unethical research organization, or that they were a reckless band of incompetent mad scientists who paid only lip service to safety and care).