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What Faction do you support?


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Well sure, but then that brings us back to our original problem. What's so wonderful about the shapers ideological goals? Why is the continued subjugation of the sentient serviles noble, or at least a necessary evil?

 

You could ask the same questions of the Rebellion, though. They back-stab, have underhand dealings, and as the series progresses, end up being subjugated in much the same way they were before they kicked off. The rebels might have nice ideals, but they get their hands just as dirty.

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The Shapers do considerably more than subjugate serviles. I doubt that anyone defends that particular practice, since it is slavery.

 

They have successfully controlled the power of Shaping for a very long time without it laying waste to huge tracts of land/the entire world. They have also directed it, often for the good of their subjects, and with care. They are a totalitarian state, but they're not an unjust one, to their human subjects at least.

 

The Awakened obviously have the best overall ideology. But supporting the Obeyers isn't without sense. None of the three are clear winners, but that's sort of the point.

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Well sure, but then that brings us back to our original problem. What's so wonderful about the shapers ideological goals? Why is the continued subjugation of the sentient serviles noble, or at least a necessary evil?

I agree with you, which is why I haven't taken a pro-shaper position in any of the three geneforges I've played (1-3). I've seen arguments that what the Rebels eventually become is worse than the Shapers. I can somewhat buy that argument in the later games, but not in G1 - in G1 the Awakened (philosophically) and the Takers (practically) make the most sense to me. The events of the later games haven't happened yet when you are playing G1, so from a role-playing perspective, I don't take them into account.

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I've seen arguments that what the Rebels eventually become is worse than the Shapers.

That I think is the chief problem, I do not like shapers, but the rebellion with all it's unbounds and so on tends to get pretty desperate, hints of that are see in G1 as well when Takers actually want you to kill the awakened, now Awakened are probably the best side in theory but the only rebel side with any real chance is the Takers, however as soon as they want me to kill the leader of fellow serviles who too want freedom for shapers never mind the other means, I lose all respect for them.

P.S. I am only slightly insane.

That's cheating!!!!! you were supposed to leave all of the sanity outside when you came in.

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The Serviles were meant to be under shaper control. Infact, willingness to please the shapers were input into their minds.

 

"Not know shaper. I plant."

"Maybe you should go back inside the school."

He looks confused and scared of disobeying a shaper. "But shaper! Other shaper told me to stay out here and garden!"

You leave the simple creature to it's business. It seems happy to be listening to a shaper.

 

Or something along those lines. I'm really just using memory here.

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The Serviles were meant to be under shaper control. Infact, willingness to please the shapers were input into their minds.

 

"Not know shaper. I plant."

"Maybe you should go back inside the school."

He looks confused and scared of disobeying a shaper. "But shaper! Other shaper told me to stay out here and garden!"

You leave the simple creature to it's business. It seems happy to be listening to a shaper.

 

Or something along those lines. I'm really just using memory here.

 

I would argue that that is at least as much nurture as nature - i.e., they were raised to be obedient. As evidence, I'd cite the fact that when they were left alone (as on Sucia Island) so many of them became Awakened or Takers, as opposed to Obeyers.

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The Serviles were meant to be under shaper control. Infact, willingness to please the shapers were input into their minds.

 

"Not know shaper. I plant."

"Maybe you should go back inside the school."

He looks confused and scared of disobeying a shaper. "But shaper! Other shaper told me to stay out here and garden!"

You leave the simple creature to it's business. It seems happy to be listening to a shaper.

 

Or something along those lines. I'm really just using memory here.

Are you referring to that servile outside the school gate in G3?

man, that was both hilarious and tragic.

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Serviles are created to have tendencies towards obedience, subservience, and relative stupidity. There's variance among these traits, as there is in humans, but generally, serviles are those three things. Then they are raised as slaves.

 

It should be noted that it took many generations of serviles before dissident factions, or indeed factions at all, arose on Sucia, and several times, one will have to fight its impulse to obey you. There's no question that serviles were shaped to be servile.

 

Which would be fine, if they remained servile. But on Sucia and with the Rebellion, many have decided to be otherwise, and revealed that their intellect is, for whatever reason, perfetly capable of matching that of humans, so enslaving them is no longer acceptable and the enslavement of serviles in general must be reexamined.

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Just a clarification for Raust, being on a barred island and attempting to kill a Shaper (you when you first start) are both crimes punishable by death.

 

Technically they weren't trying to kill me, and they had no idea it was barred until they got there. And I'm not talking about laws, laws can be made without moral justification, I'm looking for ethical infractions. You seem to strike me as being lawful neutral, I think I might be Neutral good or Chaotic good.

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Just a clarification for Raust, being on a barred island and attempting to kill a Shaper (you when you first start) are both crimes punishable by death.

Besides, these are the laws of the Shapers, why should they apply to some completely different set of people?

I mainly refer to the barred island law, killing someone is of course much more serious and probably deserves action.

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In G1 although I have pro-servile views and stay unaligned, I still get the conservative pro-shaper ending where you kill trajkov, destroy the geneforge or at least take goettsch' geneforge gloves off the isle. In other words I stay the same evil master who keeps a slaver society running the world, no mater how progressive i seem, which is a tragedy really. G1 is absolutley pessimistic about your political choices.

 

 

The best ending is for me the one where you kill rydell which prevents the obeyers from being enslaved by the Shapers and using and then destroying the geneforge, which creates such a power gap that it allows serviles being free. It's a difficult choice but neccessary.

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Damn, I'm playing Geneforge 3 and I'm really wishing that an actually sane faction will show up, one that advocates the total integration of serviles into shaper society, so serviles get treated like non-shaper humans, serviles are actually allowed to learn magic and shape, but the vitally important safeguards and concerns for social order are not thrown to the winds. Seriously, why do I have to be a racist to advocate social order? Why on earth are those treated as mutually exclusive?

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Technically they weren't trying to kill me, and they had no idea it was barred until they got there. And I'm not talking about laws, laws can be made without moral justification, I'm looking for ethical infractions. You seem to strike me as being lawful neutral, I think I might be Neutral good or Chaotic good.

 

Actually the very beginning where they shoot your drayk in the neck. They do try to kill you. BOOM! NECKSHOT!

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Damn, I'm playing Geneforge 3 and I'm really wishing that an actually sane faction will show up, one that advocates the total integration of serviles into shaper society, so serviles get treated like non-shaper humans, serviles are actually allowed to learn magic and shape, but the vitally important safeguards and concerns for social order are not thrown to the winds. Seriously, why do I have to be a racist to advocate social order? Why on earth are those treated as mutually exclusive?

Yeah, in G3 there really aren't any satisfying choices - the shapers and the rebels are both cray-cray. I'm pretty sure that was intentional.

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...that advocates the total integration of serviles into shaper society, so serviles get treated like non-shaper humans, serviles are actually allowed to learn magic and shape...

 

Hm but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of shaping serviles ? I mean, they were only made to do work. So if they could also cast spells and shape, wouldn't there be a definite risk of them rebelling sooner.

 

What do you mean by safeguards and concerns for social order ?

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serviles are actually allowed to learn magic and shape

Problem is that till G3 shapers still felt that they were absolutely in command, and any such faction will be opposed to death no matter how sane it appears to others or its other principles are, thus eventually it will probably emerge as pretty much the same faction as that of rebels, not really anything different.

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Hm but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of shaping serviles ?

Yes, that's the point. To stop shaping serviles, free them all, and treat them as equal to humans in every way.

 

Seriously, why do I have to be a racist to advocate social order? Why on earth are those treated as mutually exclusive?

Because the current Shaper social order is completely dependent on treating serviles as though they were animals. Serviles farm, transport goods, clean, and do all the other drudge work. What servile owner wants to give up their valuable property. What human wants to take on the difficult and boring work the serviles had before? Who wants to pay more for their goods because you suddenly have to pay for all the work that was previously done for free. And that's just economics. Imagine all the ideological barriers to free serviles. The Shapers defend their rule of Terrestia by maintaining an appearance of perfection and control (especially over their creations), and don't let anyone who disagrees with that into their order. They can't just admit that they were wrong and give up the idea that some creations can't be controlled.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Shapers can stop creating serviles and other sentient creations, but what do you do with the ones that are already around? Serviles can breed, so they aren't going to just all die of old age and be gone.

Exactly, they made serviles who had absolutely no problem with shaper rule in G4 ,but the problem is about the existing serviles.

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They're to be left alone to become productive full members of shaper society, obviously. And the goal isn't to make serviles that like Shapers - they have those already, in all five games - it's to make creations that aren't sentient and so won't mind a reasonable amount of enslavement, or at least can't revolt en masse.

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************************SPOILER ALERT**********************

 

 

At the end of G1, if you choose to go Obeyer, it says that the Obeyers and Rydell were commended for their obedience by choice, not by force. Thus, the Shapers gave some rights to them.

 

Edited by Randomizer
spoiler box
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That's a common phenomenon in the Geneforge series. The canon established in G4 doesn't perfectly correspond any ending of G3, either. I don't specifically remember any major continuity problem between G2 and G3, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd forgotten something. Overall, though, despite some foibles with the endings, G1-G4 fit together fairly well as far as I know. And then in G5, continuity issues are practically a joke. :D

Edited by Triumph
Dude, where's my continent?
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That's a common phenomenon in the Geneforge series. The canon established in G4 doesn't perfectly correspond any ending of G3, either. I don't specifically remember any major continuity problem between G2 and G3, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd forgotten something. Overall, though, despite some foibles with the endings, G1-G4 fit together fairly well as far as I know. And then in G5, continuity issues are practically a joke. :D

 

They're not that bad, are they (poor geography not withstanding)?

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Someone (Dikiyoba, maybe?) once listed out for me a number of continuity issues in G5, and they sounded pretty annoying. The most famous is the continent, but I'm pretty sure the Shaper Council changed drastically, the story picks up in a way incompatible with any ending from G4 (if this were the only issue, it might be forgivable), and I'm pretty sure there were other issues.

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In G1 and G2 I generally side with the Awakened, but in G3 and G4 (the two "shapers vs. rebels" games) I tend to stick with the starting faction. Basically, if the world is going to burn no matter which side I'm on, I'm not going to add being a traitor to my list of regrets. :p

 

Wow, never thought of it like that.

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In G1 and G2 I generally side with the Awakened, but in G3 and G4 (the two "shapers vs. rebels" games) I tend to stick with the starting faction. Basically, if the world is going to burn no matter which side I'm on, I'm not going to add being a traitor to my list of regrets. :p

 

I tend to play as pro-shaper in G2 + G3 for a similar reason. It never made a whole lot of sense fro ma rp perspective for a member of the shaper order to defect without a very good reason to do so, and to be frank, the rebels in G2 and G3 can be pretty awful-there really isn't enough reason to give up everything the player has strived for in life up to that point considering how much the rebels stand in opposition to everything the PC has strived for in life up until that point. This is not to say that I don't have sympathy for the plight of the rebels (well, the serviles at least) but the games don't really give any avenues for shapers who want to change the system from the inside, which leaves my characters as pro-shapers pretty much by default. 1 and 5 I feel a bit differently, as the player feels sufficiently removed from the shaper hierarchy to try out different paths. In G4 I usually play as pro-shaper because of lingering ill-will towards the rebels from G4, and because the rebels force you to use the geneforge pretty much at knifepoint right off the bat. I can't imagine someone not feeling at least some ill will at being strongarmed into mutating themselves without being made aware of the severity of the potential side effects. Add to that the amount of carnage the rebels purposefully inflict on civilians and the disregard they hold un-shaped humans and creations, and sometimes I really wonder what outsiders see in the rebellion. I think I play pro-shaper so often because of these issues-it's hard to imagine a shaper throwing away their life's work to join the rebels, or an outsider going off to join the same folks who very well could have burned down their village for anything other than selfish reasons.

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I think I play pro-shaper so often because of these issues-it's hard to imagine a shaper throwing away their life's work to join the rebels, or an outsider going off to join the same folks who very well could have burned down their village for anything other than selfish reasons.

 

Admittedly I have wondered if the PC ever does anything for anything other than selfish reasons. It's hard to RP someone whose heart is bleeding for the plight of the serviles when you're simultaneously vacuuming up every saleable object in sight.

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From what I have seen, I find the shapers to be fairly normal compared to the rebels and others. Its true that they don't care for creations but the rebels have no problems going through the extreme measures to achieve victory. Just seems too much. I miss when in Geneforge 1 and 2 where I at least have an idea who the bad guy is and who is the good guy. In gene forge 3, I found that they are both nuts. Maybe its just me.

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From what I have seen, I find the shapers to be fairly normal compared to the rebels and others. Its true that they don't care for creations but the rebels have no problems going through the extreme measures to achieve victory. Just seems too much. I miss when in Geneforge 1 and 2 where I at least have an idea who the bad guy is and who is the good guy. In gene forge 3, I found that they are both nuts. Maybe its just me.

 

I don't think the Shapers in Geneforge 3 are necessarily 'good guys' but in a competition between the two, the shapers in G3 win the 'lesser of two evils' competition hands down. Comparing the atrocities they commit in the game is pretty telling in itself:

 

 

While shaper players can commit evil acts in the name of their faction, they are overwhelmingly optional. I think this is an important aspect-shaper players do not have to kill the the servile farmers on the isle of spears, or kill the rebels on Harmony Isle, and on Gull island the faction quests are essentially a choice between saving some shapers from imprisonment and starvation, and assassinating a sympathetic moderate shaper (who even helps servile refugees) so that the aformentioned prisoners can be murdered without fear of reprisal. Finally, rebel players are tasked with assassinating Rahul, incidentally likely killing a vast number of civilians in the process. The rebel ending has the player commiting genocide on villagers, while the shaper ending has the player fighting to prevent the same.

 

 

In short, while shaper players may opt out of evil acts, while rebel players *Must* commit or be complacent with several reprehensible acts to complete the game as a rebel.

They

In addition to how the player is asked to behave to complete each factio nstoryline, there is how the factions themselves behave. While neither faction is a saint, the rebels again show themselves to be morally reprehensible through their methods.

 

 

The rebels have even less regard for the protection and well-being of outsiders than the shapers. While the shapers may horde knowledge and rule with an iron fist, the rebels utilize spawners and creators for the express purpose of disrupting shaper infrastructure by using rogues to murder outsiders, including civilians. When they take over a city, they routinely destroy it and massacre as many civilians as possible as possible. They destroy Dhonal's keep after taking it, and destroy Poryphra in the ending-two cities in one game. On greenwood isle a creation is deliberately left behind to go rogue and attack civilians. Additionally one must consider the Monastary of Tears, which was invaded, and had its monks rounded up and massacred under Litalia's orders despite being completely isolated from contact with Shapers and who could not have been farther removed from the conflict. Of course, there is also the shaper school itself, which the rebels had little reason to destroy but did so anyways, and also the proxy war litalia started on Harmony isle, starting a proxy war where there had been, well harmony before-more bystanders gettign killed to further the rebel goals. Although the rebels harp on creation rights frequently, it is obvious from the game that this is only so when it is convenient. creations made from lifecrafters or spawners/creators are used as fodder, even intelligent ones like Alphas and Thads. Meanwhile it is abundantly clear that equality among the creations and lifecrafters will never happen, with drakons intending to lord over everything, with drayks, serviles, lifecrafters, outsiders etc below them, and even then lifecrafters and drayks seem to put an innapropriate amount of importance on themselves. Litalia at one point even goes so far as to give resources to an outsider to enslave the serviles under his command- just to give the shapers one more thing to fight, and at another seems unconcerned with what the player does to the greenwood creatior, which is obviously sentient. Even on their most important issue, that of creation rights, the rebels have a spotty at best record.Lastly, while shapers seem to use torture, rebels seem to enjoy it, and there are numerous examples not only from G3, but from the entire series where captives are starved to death, left to die from exposure, fed (alive) to creations, left to die from exposure, or just flat out tortured to death.

 

 

I think there are three main reasons why someone would join the rebels, the first being for moral reasons, the second for power, and the third because they are addicted to cannisters. The moral reason always seemed a bit shaky to me, because the rebels do absolutely terrible things in the name of their cause, for no real discernable positive change, it's hard to imagine a shaper joining them for moral reasons when the rebels themselves are, if anythign even less moral in their goals than the shapers. While some might be tempted to bring up the 'ends justifies the means' argument, the problem with it is that this entails uncontrolled shaping, genocide, social, political, environmental, and economic upheaval, drakon and lifecrafter oppression, destruction, and dangerous rogues infesting the countryside.

 

Power is something that can be understood, but the problem is that the side effects for learning shaping the rebel way are abundantly clear and overwhelmingly negative. Why would a shaper join the rebels for their cannisters when they are already a shaper, and thus have the safer method that does not warp the minds and bodies of those that use it? The only sort of person who I can imagine doing this would have to be pathologically power-lustful to even consdier doing so, and IMO Rawal and Barzhal are not the sort of positive role models I like to use when I am playing Geneforge. Udnerstandable motivation, but not necessarily one I personally would want to play using, and certainly not a 'good guy' motivation.

 

lastly there is cannster addiction. I can concieve of a loyalist shaper going rebel, if only for their next fix or to avoid being exiled/executed for self-shaping. The cannisters themselves are definately not a 'moral' object, considering that they are addictive, cause distortion of the body and mind, and are supernaturally alluring to shapers. The addictive qualities, the alluring nature, and the way that the rebels purposefully leave them in your way, sometimes using the carrot on a stick method (as quest rewards) and the way that they use cannisters

on an unwitting shaper agatha to distract her

make a scenario where the rebels addict the player character to cannisters and then string them along with promises of more cannisters disturbingly appropriate for roleplaying purposes. It might be kinda tragic, playing as essentially a junkie, but it's the only real way I can justify my character's actions when playing as a rebel in G3, consdiering all of the morally repugnant things the rebels do, including several which would realistically leave the player character with quite the grudge

destroying the school (and killing almost everyone the palyer had known for however many years they had been there) and Litalia mocking the player by telling them that everyone they knew on the mainland would be dead...etc

 

 

 

****Too Long, Didn't Read Version****

 

There is little room for someone in the player's position to realistically join the rebel's position if you think about it. A radical pro-servile shaper like Greta would have been thrown out long before (how she even got past the screening process the way she goes on, I have no idea), and it is hard to imagine even a moderate shaper entertaining thoughts of aiding the rebellion on moral grounds considering all of the reprehensibly amoral methods they utilize, including ones aimed at the player character and those they know and care about.

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Also, in G3 the moral dilemmas the rebels pose are really awkward. Ran off into the swamps because the local Shaper wouldn't fulfill his obligation as the local ruler to protect you? You have a point. What do you want me to do about it? Fulfill my obligation as a Shaper and kill the rogues for you? No? You want me to... give you a canister. From the same person who created the rogues. Right. I'm not going to betray my people to help you be an idiot.

 

Then again, in G4 I usually play rebel. Just as it is difficult to imagine a Shaper in G3 joining the rebels, I have difficulty imagining that someone who joined the rebels before the game started hasn't already worked themselves into a mindset where they will take anyone but the Shapers. I admittedly haven't played it past the demo, so I can't comment on the moral dilemmas.

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It's worse considering that the rebels on Harmony won't give up even if you take out the rogues before dealing with them, after the whole reason for rebelling is gone. And he STILL want's you to give him the cannister. Even the outsider rebellion the rebels set up as a sacrificial lamb to stall the shapers aren't relateable in G3, ugh. G4 I think there is very good justification for joining the rebels for the reasons you just gave, but I usually go pro-shaper anyways because A) I played it right after G3, in which I hated the rebels, B) The rebels come off right away as getting off on the wrong foot with the condescending lifecrafters, strongarming you into using the geneforge, and neglectign to inform you of all of the terrible things that can happen to you if things go wrong until afterwards. (like the crazed lifecrafter living in a cave right outside their enterance) By comparison, the shapers in their first appearance come off as much more subtle and sympathetic in their efforts to recruit you than the rebels in G4. Lastly, C) the plot to create the unbound puts a huge damper on my enthusiasm for the rebels when it surfaces. Like I have mentioned before, the main reason why someone would join the rebels, but it is a reason that the rebels seem to put a great deal of effort to undermine throughout the series, plus it has the unfortunate effect of echoing the ur-drakon plot of Geneforge 3 (see reason A) I can personally imagine a rebel player wandering around southforge slackjawed in horror wondering "what have I gotten myself into, this isn't anything like what I was told the rebellion was like" which allows me to play pro-shaper without feeling like I am acting unrealistically. It might be different if the shapers wouldn't accept you if you are shaped, but they do, and as the best shaper ending shows,

they will reward you loyalty and the loyalty of other turncoat rebels, even serviles, quite well, possibly even letting you continue to exercise your shaping powers

.

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The rebels fled because Lankan was impulsive and hit Diwaniya, knowing the consequences. The rebels knew the only punishment for striking a Shaper was death.

 

Consider that only Lankan struck him though. Only Lankan would have been executed, if anyone. Remember that Diwaniya becomes horrified if you actually kill Lankan and the rebels and tells you to leave, I think there is plenty of evidence that Diwaniya wanted the affair settled peacefully-continuing the rebellion after the rogues were gone and insisting on the cannister after that points rather heavily towards Lankan being a pretty selfish individual, who wasn't fighting for the other rebels at all, considering he was ready to let them be dragged down with him, even if you point out that he was had by Litalia and that Diwaniya was not responsible for the events. He is purely selfish in that regard, which is unfortunate because Lankan is essentially the 'face' of the human/outsider side of the rebellion, the one that players should most be able to relate to, and the part of the rebellion not attatched to genocide, drakon politics etc. The Harmony Isle rebels don't do a whole lot of anythign to make the rebels mroe appealing to join, in my opinion.

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I know who they are, I would hope that it was evident which group of rebels I was talking about in my posts. :) The point of the matter being that most of the rebels, gazers, serviles, serviles cultists, drayks, drakons, lifecrafters etc are hard to relate to due to their demeanor, social structure, the atrocities the comit, etc. Lankan and his rebels are as close as we get to seeing a 'normal' side to the rebellion, one that the player could relate to for virtue of beign normal human beings, and without the attatched baggage of genocide, tyranny and insanity that the rebels proper carry. However, the fact of the matter is, the leader of the gatherere rebels is hot tempered, selfish, and refuses to back down even when a shaper comes in and handles the problem that he was the entire reason for him rebelling, prefering to take down all of the rebel gatherers with him rather than concede that he was wrong and that he has no more reason to rebel.

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