Articulate Vlish Thycavivor Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Archers are getting an unfair reputation as being a waste of time. My archer is 100% dex and one of the most useful members of my team. Here's why: 1. She's hard to hit. I'm not spending a lot of energy trying to repair her or protect her. 2. She hits more often--a LOT more often. This is because a) she rarely misses her target and she often gets a second shot. Even though her hit points are a little lower than anyone else on the team, she gets to hit her enemy twice, which more than makes up for the difference. 3. Her blade-sweep is the best on the team. It is especially good for wiping out hordes of summoned enemies. Not only does this reduce the number of enemies in a battle, it also means that the enemy summoner(s)wasted a turn on a dead pet. 4) Go ahead, ensnare her! She can shoot you anyway. She doesn't have to stand next to you to do damage. Yes, the archer has crap for a melee skill during the few times when blade-sweep is not available. But my tank has crap for missile skills and I don't see anybody here thinking that disqualifies him to play. (Ever had a tank ensnared and unable to come to the aid of the rest of the lightly armored team? He's useless.) So my advice is to ignore the haters and build one high-dex archer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk adc. Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Who told you that? Archers are pretty awesome, but needs more Defense and Hardiness in case it gets hit. And you don't have to waste too much action points just to get to an enemy... ---------- -Nightwatcher is one, Nightwatcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Thycavivor Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Originally Posted By: Rehctawthgin's Spectre Who told you that? Archers are pretty awesome, but needs more Defense and Hardiness in case it gets hit. And you don't have to waste too much action points just to get to an enemy... ---------- -Nightwatcher is one, Nightwatcher He did: http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=264048 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Hi Thycavivor! For what it's worth, I don't hate archers, and if you take a look at my remix, they are actually quite good in it. They are playable in the regular game, just not the best options. Let's take a look at this: Point #1: Dodge rate. This is true! Unfortunately, it does not apply as much on the higher difficulties when maxing out your Dex still won't allow you to dodge many attacks. Point #2: Hit rate and number of hits. As far as hit rate goes, pretty much all attack types are equal -- there is no advantage to using bows, swords, or anything else, provided you invest in the correct primary stat. As far as number of hits: archers do get potential bonuses here from Gymnastics and Sniper. The Gymnastics bonus works well with a +AP item, but it can also be bettered (on ANY character) by using two +AP items. The Sniper bonus, unfortunately, is practically worthless due to the fact that it won't stack with Haste -- and since Haste is powerful enough that you'll want it active all the time for the rest of your party, anyway. So archers don't get a meaningful advantage in this category unless you are (intentionally or not) gimping the rest of your party. Point #3: Blade Sweep. This is true! Unfortunately, it still pales in comparison to even low level area of effect spells from spellcasters. Point #4: Able to target at range. This is true! Of course, it also applies to spellcasters. So the real problem is that dual-wielders do more damage, while spellcasters are equal or better in pretty much every regard, not to mention have a more versatile skill set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Kestral Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have a full archer on my team as well, and she definitely doesn't feel useless. However, I do have to admit that her only advantage over a caster seems to be never running out of mana and always having a good chance of a 2nd attack, due to sniper, even when the haste runs out. I also gave her my only +AP item so far which works great with gymnastics. But if I ever find a second one, you better believe I'm giving them both to the mage. =P Only point on which I kinda disagree with House of S is that Sniper doesn't feel "practically worthless" at all even when Haste is on...it seems like they both have an independent chance to activate. With just one or the other I seem to get a proc about 1/2 the time, but with both it seems more like 3/4 that I'll get one of them. So it's usefulness is reduced, but not eliminated - it's definitely still worth investing in IMO. (And honestly, for a lot of less difficult battles I don't bother to constantly cast haste, so there's that. =P Also, my haste is only Lvl-2. Perhaps at Lvl-3 it procs more often, leading to a further degradation of Sniper's value.) So yeah, archers are tons of fun and not terrible at all. They'll just never be as powerful as the most powerful builds in the game, which are apparently 1.) a dual-wielding guy with 2 +AP items and the two best weapons in the game (which happen to both be swords) and 2.) a mage guy who uses Blade of Discipline and other items to boost weapon skills so that he can unlock Adrenaline Rush with just a couple points and then spam 3 AOE spells in a row (or even 4 if haste procs first, and *then* you use adrenaline rush) at the beginning of every battle. But neither of those guys are on my team, so my archer fits right in and doesn't feel out-classed by anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 You are right that Sniper and Haste both get a chance to activate -- however, if one activates, the other one LOSES its chance to activate for that turn. That's why I said "practically worthless" and not "worthless." Haste activates 1 in 3 times. Sniper is 5% per level, so if you invest 10 skill points, that is a 1 in 2 chance. If you have both, math gives us the chance of getting one activation: 2 in 3. So, IF you aren't using +AP Items, Gymnastics, Battle Fury, or Adrenaline Rush, you will get about 20% more attacks than with just Haste. (Average of 4 shots per 3 turns with Haste, or 5 shots per 3 turns with both Haste and 10 Sniper.) EDIT: I'll stop here because your last paragraph puts things quite elegantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk JamesMighty Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I have to say, when I read the strategy guide it said no archers so I'm like cool, whatever. Then I get to the game and have my spellcasters and tank all going loco and my other guys sitting there barely hitting I'm like ok, lets give him a bow and increase his dex and all and then its like dude awesome so now I'm kicking butt and I wonder why the strategy guide said that archers rule go archers! ( Ps robin hood doesn't like the strategy guide either, he told me so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 few times my 1st fighter has attacked thrice when battle frenzied cause he has got extra attack from gymnastics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Arch-Mage Solberg Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I use an archer as the second person on my four person group. She also opens locks and disarms traps. So in a sense...I don't feel she's useless. Post # 673 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk JamesMighty Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I feel the same way. I have two archers to show I can go with only 1 spellcaster. I advance far in the game but do not finish it, showing Archers are more than capable of making it close to the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Arch-Mage Solberg I use an archer as the second person on my four person group. She also opens locks and disarms traps. So in a sense...I don't feel she's useless. Post # 673 To be fair, in A:EftP, you can spread tool use around. I'll admit I didn't the first time, but it is possible, since the game checks the party's total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Arch-Mage Solberg Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Slarticuno Originally Posted By: Arch-Mage Solberg I use an archer as the second person on my four person group. She also opens locks and disarms traps. So in a sense...I don't feel she's useless. Post # 673 To be fair, in A:EftP, you can spread tool use around. I'll admit I didn't the first time, but it is possible, since the game checks the party's total. I know it checks party total now, but I've played using this combination since Avernum 1. My four person group. 1. Warrior-Swordsman (Tank) 2. Thief-Archer/lockpicker/trap disarmer 3. Priest-Ingredient holder 4. Mage-Item holder I like the pic. Post #675 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Arch-Mage Solberg (snip) Sure, I used the same party too. On my last A:EftP run, though, I spread arcane lore and tool use around, and it meant more damage-dealing skills all round, which is clearly better. Also, re your Slarty comment, there are so many answers to that, and not enough (CoC-friendly) time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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