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keira

Wesnoth Multiplayer Anyone?

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I am undecided on this issue. I really enjoy games like Age of Empires, where, basically, if your strategy is sound you will win the battle. In Wesnoth, you will probably defeat your enemy with a better strategy, but sometimes you just can't hit the right units or something similar (For this reason, in Wesnoth, I try to make sure I always have extra units that can attack in case the front liners keep missing).

 

It is fun to have that element of risk with an RNG, and it forces you to adapt in case your tactic fails. However, I also like having a sound game plan that I know will work, which is easy in a game like AoE.

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I sort of prefer this system more. It's true that merely using a "sound" strategy still risks losing, but an even better strategy will anticipate the risks, include contingencies and backup tactics, and decrease that risk. A sufficiently relatively superior strategy (at least from fair starting conditions) can lead to a virtually certain victory.

 

As you mention:

 

Quote:
(For this reason, in Wesnoth, I try to make sure I always have extra units that can attack in case the front liners keep missing).

 

Part of a sound strategy. laugh

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Heh. Yeah. I suppose when I said a sound strategy, I meant a simple strategy. AoE is kind of like chess, certain moves and units are better than others, period. The risk in that game is not doing the right thing to beat your enemy. The risk in Wesnoth is that all your guys or the key units in your plan will miss over and over.

 

You're right though, when making a plan in Wesnoth, you have to take into account the probability of units hitting their targets. It's just that sometimes even the best of plans can fail, which is irritating.

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Here's another take on differences between games, although this one starts out attempting to analyze pre-existing labels ("Euro" vs "Ameritrash") rather than with maths. I think the point about drama is especially relevant to the differing opinions about Wesnoth. Wesnoth's design philosophy is definitely oriented more towards drama than towards elegance or realism. For those of us who've been more frustrated with its RNG, that may reflect our own design preferences.

 

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1268120#1268120

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Anyway, here's an article I remember reading on the topic of randomness in games. It's written by Mark Rosewater about Magic, so skim over the examples if you're not familiar with that game, but a lot of the points apply to computer games (and other games) as well. For me, like many others here, randomness is good in some games mainly because it stops players from "mathing out" before doing anything, and because it spreads decision points throughout play.

 

(@Rowen: I can't speak for all card games, but while the outcome of an individual game has high variance, over time skill does play a factor. Assuming both players have comparable decks, of course.)

 

Originally Posted By: Slarty
Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
Interesting model of luck and skill in (board) games. Well, interesting for me at least, and maybe you'll find it interesting as well.
Thanks for posting the link. Very interesting. What did you think of it, Dinti?
I end up liking/disliking computer/board games based on mechanics more often than stuff like depth and luck. Also, I'm too much of a dilettante to be skilled in any one game. tongue Anyway, the coordinates of the games we choose ends up being chosen by whatever the group is in the mood for (usually vetoed by the host). Sometimes you want a brain burner, sometimes a party game.

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Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
Anyway, here's an article I remember reading on the topic of randomness in games. It's written by Mark Rosewater about Magic, so skim over the examples if you're not familiar with that game, but a lot of the points apply to computer games (and other games) as well. For me, like many others here, randomness is good in some games mainly because it stops players from "mathing out" before doing anything, and because it spreads decision points throughout play.


it also means you have an external factor to blame when you lose

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Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
Anyway, here's an article I remember reading on the topic of randomness in games. It's written by Mark Rosewater about Magic, so skim over the examples if you're not familiar with that game, but a lot of the points apply to computer games (and other games) as well. For me, like many others here, randomness is good in some games mainly because it stops players from "mathing out" before doing anything, and because it spreads decision points throughout play.


I'm sorry, I couldn't take anything he said seriously after he claimed that A New Hope was better than Empire Strikes Back.

Also, his argument that chess is essentially random because a player doesn't know what lines will be effective against your opponent is stupid in addition to being wrong- not only are the vast majority of master-level games published, enabling review of them to analyze weaknesses, but t really doesn't take many games at all to get a feeling of an opponent's play style. He really should stick to Magic rather than attempting to defend his pet theory by spouting off about games he has no clue what he's talking about.

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Right now, I'm having a serious debate in my mind. Do I care if Dantius can't take anything I say seriously again?

 

---

 

The Rosewater article is interesting, and most of the individual statements he makes are true, but I really disagree with the conclusions he draws. I think he has left out a lot, and in some cases settled on superficial explanations for more complicated phenomena. For example, his statement that gamers will accept dice in Monopoly but not Magic solely because of "preconceived expectations" ignores the fact that those are dramatically different games with very little in common.

 

I wrote that, and then I read the mini-article on Chess. Oh god. Now I can't take anything he says seriously again. Chess: random, with playstyle trumping analysis. >.<

 

That's too bad, as I've tended to like his expansions more than most. Sigh.

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*boop*

 

So I never really got anywhere with a who-is-online thing or a replays thing, it turns out that the server documentation is more-or-less nonexistent. woohoo.

 

but is anyone interested on doing a big ol' group match sometime? It would be neat if we could get like a 4v4 battle of all SWers.

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If anyone happens to be around tonight, there will be a game starting in about half an hour.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Sure, a game this weekend would be swell. Aran, is that 'merca night or Europe night?

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Saturday night on the east coast, Sunday morning in Europe. Yeah, that was kind of vague. wink

 

Think I'll start idling around 22:00 UTC (18:00 East).

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I'll try to pop in after FoD gets done, if I'm not too tired.

 

That reminds me, I still have to do the log for that.

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So 12/1 AM EDT? x.x You guys are pushing it. I could probably get on, but not indeffinetly.

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that was just for me personally, i was not suggesting that time for anyone else.

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I'm down for a game tomorrow (saturday). I'll be in the lobby all day prolly, if I don't respond stab me on AIM or in the calref chat.

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I'll have the window open all day as well. I would have it open everyday, but it has been so empty >.> I'll check every five minutes or so if anyones there, so if you come and I'm not talking, don't be discourage, just wait a little while.

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Originally Posted By: The AwEsOmE and Wise FlUtTeRtReE
I'll have the window open all day as well. I would have it open everyday, but it has been so empty >.> I'll check every five minutes or so if anyones there, so if you come and I'm not talking, don't be discourage, just wait a little while.
Ditto. I haven't been checking as often because every time I do, there's no one there. frown

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Well, I just logged in, and plan to be up for pretty much the rest of the night. Anyone looking for a challenge is welcome to stop by.

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Currently on, and will probably wait about an hour for someone to show up.. I'll also attempt to show up over the week-end, too. If I'm not immediately responsive, just give it a few minutes.

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I'll try to be on this weekend (meaning today and tomorrow) too. In fact, I'm on right now if anyone is wanting to play.

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I'll be on for quite a while if anyone wants to play.

 

Last night we had 7 members on. This game sure has become popular.

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I'll probably be on for the rest of the day today, in case anyone wants to test their mettle.

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I'm getting a "Could not connect to host" error when I try to log on. Is this a server problem or something else?

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Sorry, I restarted the VM earlier today and wesnothd isn't in the init.d. Server is back up.

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So, um. Remember how I said I was going to create a fancy thing that would show you who was on the calref wesnoth server and all that?

 

Well, I spent a rather ominous four-hour coding spree on it, and I now have a chunk of JSON that is updated every five minutes. The data is available here. Anyone is more than welcome to use this as a source of data for their personal interfaces, as long as they don't DDoS me. tongue

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hahahahahaaaaa

 

guess what

 

it turns out that game hash values can have brackets in them. this means i have to completely rewrite the WML parsing system.

 

*eyetwitch*

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Originally Posted By: Future Wonderbolt
So, um. Remember how I said I was going to create a fancy thing that would show you who was on the calref wesnoth server and all that?

Well, I spent a rather ominous four-hour coding spree on it, and I now have a chunk of JSON that is updated every five minutes. The data is available here. Anyone is more than welcome to use this as a source of data for their personal interfaces, as long as they don't DDoS me. tongue
Originally Posted By: Future Wonderbolt
It is done.

Now I think I shall go work on getting nick registrations working. woohoo.


You are awesome.

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flutterblush.png

 

In related news, I am being completely honest when I say that the wesnoth server has the worst documentation of any open-source project I have ever used. It's like they are actively trying to make it a pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted By: Future Wonderbolt


That looks really neat, I want to play the game too as soon as I get myself a good connection.

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It's sort of dying. Maybe Jeff should buy out the game so it become an official spidweb game, and we all play it more.

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Originally Posted By: Syk.
It's sort of dying. Maybe Jeff should buy out the game so it become an official spidweb game, and we all play it more.

open source, you can't just 'buy it out' because even if you did (which you wouldn't, since most FOSS developers don't fancy proprietary software), all previous versions would still be GPLed and someone would just fork it, so you wouldn't make any money.

that being said, the best method for this problem is to schedule a wesnoth night where everyone can play, instead of saying "i'm on tonight, bee tee dubs". not that there is anything wrong with that, but knowing in advance will allow people to maybe be able to make it.

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I haven't been able to get on a lot lately because Real Life has been rather busy. So... yeah.

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Originally Posted By: Syk.
It's sort of dying.


Why is everything dying? BoA, Exile, the Geneforge forums, and now Wesnoth. It hardly even began...

Well, I'll be on most evenings, except Thursday's usually. I just check in every few minutes and if no one is on I log off. It'll be hard to shedule a big game, maybe something like was done before.

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