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A:EftP - This game sucks so bad...

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Originally Posted By: Albert's Collarary
Oh, the sliths and nephils will be back as PCs in the next Avernum. E1/A1 has always had humans only.

In the next Avernum? shocked So you're saying that there will be more Avernum remakes?
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-A

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It's easier to remake the game than make a new one since most of the writing is already done. It also helps with all those complaints about the game not running on new computers.

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1st trilogy will be remade in "near" future (Avadon 2 then Avernum 2 remake etc) and soon after that its time to remake 2nd trilogy to give those updated graphics and engine.

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I have no major complaints about this remake, other than what feels like massive amounts of HP for most bosses. I prefer playing this to Avernum. Nothing quite feels like the Exile series though. I keep a 32-bit virtual machine on my pc just so I can fire up Exile 2 occasionally.

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enemies have always alot health so not really new and even with that red bar barely visible they can withstand lvl 3 fireblast.

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My perspectives as a returning player.

 

Seeing it available on the iPad - made it an instant snap purchase, and I have been loving it.

 

I played the hades out of Exile 3 and Blades (Exile and Avernum), I loved just how big exile 3 was. finding the secret tunnels, I think I missed a few things before I went online, but found nearly everything by head banging my way around the isle and every freaking crevice in dungeons.

 

I was mixed thoughts about this, it was great fun at the time, but that head banging/grinding play would make me bang my head against the keyboard now. I'm only just started in the A:EFTP, and find the subtle blocks very difficult to see even after getting nice big messages 'look over there' aka bandit fort. I hope these messages continue, 'cause i am going to miss a lot of secret places without them.

 

My big disappointments so far have been the lack of the non human races, but if that's coming in later title, it's all good.

 

The levelling system seems inferior to the old one. I miss it. Enough that purchase me some old school avernum.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving A:EFTP even without my ol' levelling system of choice. But it feels watered down and far less diverse.

 

The no 'wait in combat' going annoys me, but I'm getting used to it. The bada bing recharge when entering town - well I see the point, and seems to be well better RPGish (or is it just more a timesink the way it is now?) than the run out of module, rest, re-enter.

 

In all, it doesn't suck, I feel it to be an interesting reinterpretation of the game with the mechanics changes more pleasing than others smile

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during Avernum 1's time wars between slitvs and nephs vs humans still raged alot and by Avernum 2 those have been mostly finished.

 

options to refil health and spellpoints are current 1 aka goto nearest friendly town, set up camp to rest (that requires some1 guarding so he/she won't get rest), paying to healer or buying potions but both of those cost money which is bit scarce at beginning and eating food restores only health.

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I thought I'd respond to this thread instead of starting my own since I'm in agreement with the OP. Avernum: EFTP is probably the least enjoyable Spiderweb game I have played in a while.

 

I have to admit, I'm in a different position from many gamers here, since I've played Exile 1 and Avernum 1. In otherwords, I've essentially played the game through twice already, so Avernum: EFTP holds no surprises for me. I'm simply covering old ground when it comes to the game world, story, dialogue etc. Also, Avernum 6 was my last game, and I regard it as solid good fun.

 

For me, Avernum: EFTP doesn't improve on anything. It still suffers from the same problems of the previous games, which include:

 

- HP bloat. Avernum is, at its core, a hack and slash game. You need to fight to advance. This is unfortunate when you have a truckload of enemies thrown at you whose HP exceeds that of all your PCs combined. This was a major problem in Avernum 5. It was scaled back in Avernum 6 (with the exception of a few powerful end-game bosses, most of whom were optional fights), but now it's back in full force.

 

- Poor documentation and in-game info. I'm amazed that the game manual does not include spell descriptions, or even spell effect descriptions, this time around! Furthermore, in-game information is flat out wrong. I'm sick of the incomplete and misleading in and out of game documentation. Given that the developer has many so many games and remakes, it's inexcusable that the documentation is so poor.

 

- Useless/unbalanced skills. Archery is still useless, pole weapons are inferior to dual wielding, most of the skills higher up the skill tree are downright inferior to those lower on the tree.

 

However, Avernum: EFTP actually is worse than previous games in several aspects:

 

- The skill tree format is actually more restrictive than the old system, which wasn't that great to begin with. Most of the higher skills are downright inferior to the lower tier skills. You're usually better off investing in melee than blademaster, or mage spells over spellcraft. And now you need to invest in weapon skills to improve hardiness. Archery is inferior, so that eliminates 1/4 of the entire skill tree screen.

 

In my mind, the whole idea of a skill tree hierarchy is that as a result of investing in lower level, 'core' skills, you are eventually rewarded with kick-ass, flashy high end skills. When lower tier skills are *better* than higher tier skills, this just has me question why Jeff would even bother with the skill tree system.

 

- Having the game automatically move your PCs to the appropriate range is rather annoying. It sucks even more when there is no in-game grid to see actually how far you need to move before you can execute a ranged attack.

 

- This game is *hard*. An abundant number of enemies seem to have ranged, area of effect elemental attacks that can kill your characters in one round (poison rain, lightning spray). That would be fine, if you had some sort of defense available. Unfortunately, it all boils down to killing them quickly enough so that they never reach that point in their scripting where they resort to such an attack. Playing the game on torment is about as fun as mud-wrestling a skunk, and you hit a brick wall once you reach the Great Cave. Normal difficulty is tolerable, but boring due to the HP bloat that persists.

 

- Enforced linearity. Exploration of the open-ended world is sorely limited by monster level. If you venture too far off the beaten track (ie. anywhere remotely interesting), you are often killed in the first round of combat. Hell, you don't even get to fire a shot, since these monsters get to move before you. Gothic used a similar system of linearity, particularly Gothic 1. However, Gothic had a stronger plot, it had a storyline you needed to play through. Avernum's main selling point is its free-ranged exploration. So Jeff is essentially inhibiting free-ranged exploration is what is supposed to be a free-ranged exploration game.

 

- Spell system seems incomplete. Each spell has three levels, but as far as I can tell, a large number of the spells don't receive a notable increase in power when you upgrade them.

 

- A number of traits appear bugged. Summoning focus *does not* work, and neither does blessing focus.

 

- Last but not least, the weapons/armour in this game seem underpowered. Exile 1 had a shortage of high-end gear, but at least when you got a magic item, it really kicked ass. None of the magical weaponary/armour in this game is ground-breaking.

 

Overally, AEFTP is pretty disappointing.

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I haven't played a spiderweb game in about 5 years, so hearing that Jeff is remaking the whole Avernum trilogy is quite amazing. I hope this thread is a bit of an exaggeration. Avernum(the original) was a great improvement upon exile.

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This is a reply to @Brocktree(I didn't want to quote you since yours was a huge post)

1.Archery is in no way useless, a lot of guys will tell you that they actually found it more useful than other builds, the high chance you get of dodging enemy attacks should compensate for the lower damage, It might be inferior BUT it is not USELESS.

2. If you find the game to be too hard on higher difficulties then play on lower ones, that's the reason they are provided.

3. I am about 99% sure that the traits are not bugged, it's just that as you progress in the game they don't help you as much as you feel they should, A +2 level summon will be very hard to notice from a normal one, ditto for blessing focus which gives you what ?, a 3-4% increase in effectiveness, very hard to notice again.

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1. We are both in agreement that archery is inferior to other means of dealing physical damage. Even worse, it no longer has the tactical advantage it afforded in earlier Avernum games. You can't fire at someone directly next to you, which really sucks because most enemies close in on you in the first round. So essentially, you are investing in a source of physical damage which has a lower damage output than dual wielding (and even pole weapons!), that can't even be used against enemies near you. Bye bye 1/4 of the skill tree, it was nice knowing you!

 

2. You're right in the sense that Torment is meant to be hard. However, this 'hardness' occurs due to HP bloat, astronomical damage, and a hidden penalty to your PCs resistances. That's not a good sort of hard. And as I observed, Normal difficulty suffers from HP bloat, it's just not *as bad* as Torment. Honestly, combat just isn't interesting with the skill system and HP bloat, which is real bad, since combat is the main focus of the game.

 

3. I'm 100% sure summoning focus is bugged. Summons do not gain levels. I've tested this with the editor, and my summons do not receive an increase in their %to hit with the Summon Focus trait. Blessing focus does not cause my War Blessing spells to increase my chance to hit by 5%.

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1. Inferior is not the same thing as that of useless, secondly it is inferior to only Dual wielding, It is for sure better than Poles and Single wielding, why do you want to fire at someone right next to you, just take a step back and fire, the enemies will come towards you and most will miss, besides in a 4 player party you will probably have a dual wielder and an archer could easily shoot from behind as well as lure some enemies towards himself to relieve the pressure of the dual wielder.

2. Higher HP, more damage , better attacks, If I am right these are the only way to increase fight difficulty, what other methods do you recommend? Plus if you think that enemies have too much HP in normal as well then go play casual, although I will add that the huge HP problem is valid only in torment and hard, but that is sort of subjective.

3. If you have tested that I won't argue, but I will add that a level gain does not necessarily mean a higher hitting chance, It could just as well mean a higher HP/ dodging chance, Similarly I think the bonus to hit that blessing spell gives is probably constant and the trait might be increasing the duration of the spell, did you test that as well?

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3. I'm 100% sure summoning focus is bugged. Summons do not gain levels. I've tested this with the editor, and my summons do not receive an increase in their %to hit with the Summon Focus trait. Blessing focus does not cause my War Blessing spells to increase my chance to hit by 5%.

 

Increasing the power of a blessing spell doesn't increase the power of the blessing, only the average duration. Yes, this does make Blessing Focus sort of questionably useful even though it works as intended.

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Archery is very useful and I can confirm that it does usually do more damage than pole arms and sword and board. So while it doesn't beat dual wielding, its still good. The problem with losing a place to pick off enemies is usually negated when you use your sword fighter/melee combatant to take the heat off the rest of the party. Its still like Avadon where melee has uses in helping remove the scope of your enemies against your fragile combatants.

 

In response to this thread, I think that the game offers a lot of roleplaying to be had and in a way I like some things from Avernum EFTP better than Avadon.

 

For some reason, whenever I play a party based game, I like to be able to target any enemy and take them out through melee skill, etc. Avernum and Geneforge has that way that melee is stronger and hopefully jeff will keep that up in future games. Avadon doesn't have that, but makes up for it with a better story, better characters and overall more fun to play.

 

The only main grief and major grief I have with this game is that the story just isn't strong enough to engage in. Im on my 3rd play through with Avadon and just can't find a reason to pick this up again.

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I've started playing Avadon, and amazingly the skill tree system is *better* than in AEFTP. Higher tier skills are more powerful and kickass, while the lower tier skills remain useful.

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Just wanted to chime in that I've had very good experiences with archers as well. By the mid-game they will not be dealing as much damage as dual-wielders and spell-casters, but they are great as tanks due to their high evasion to physical, fire, and energy. You just need to load them up with some items that give extra cold resistance.

 

Also, their high dexterity leads to attacking earlier in the round, which can be a tactical advantage in some battles.

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I've started playing Avadon, and amazingly the skill tree system is *better* than in AEFTP. Higher tier skills are more powerful and kickass, while the lower tier skills remain useful.

 

Avadon and Avernum are quite different game, in Avernum casters can cast most damaging spells 50 times in row if needed but in Avadon casters use mostly their basic attack due abilities are cooling down.

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Never played olders avernum games but I was expecting to need food (the food in the game is practically useless later on) and rest in the town to get back my health dont get me wrong the game is not easy even on normal but those are some things you expect in this kind of games.

I really like the game so far :D

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Food was needed in Exile 1-3 but removed for Avernum 1. It made a brief reappearance in A6 since starvation is relevant to the plot.

 

—Alorael, who does not miss food, except maybe in Nethergate, where having a modest amount of woods lore would result in gaining more food than you ate while wandering around outside.

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At first, I was like, Hey! Awesome game...I got this on Steam about the same time I bought Grimrock, but have been playing this for a while now, and at first it was mostly enjoyable. Then, after levelling in to more difficult encounters I started to get really annoyed at the lack of being able to determine where I "should" be, ie. my party wanders in to a nest of Fire Lizards or Drakes at level 8 {just some random idea here}. Boom! insta- death. So, I was wondering why would my party be able or allowed to commit suicide so easily {no in-game warning or limit}.

 

This became a little dissappointing until I started changing the way I explored....I mean,yes, I can walk in to a hopeless encounter, where my team is hopelessly outmatched. Combat begins and all party members are in a concentrated formation, easily destroyed by AOE attacks. It wasn't until I was mentally commanding my last troop to RUN! that I realized the game allows for these mishaps.

 

After entering combat mode, I can "sneak" my Tank around a corner and scout what Nasties await in their squares of red influence...HA! The rest of my team waits around the corner or out of sight of these nasties. My warrior signals the All-Retreat sign and backs away quietly. Drakes are unaware, and we slink off to strategize quietly on how best to relieve the Fire Breathing Lizards of their Hoard...

 

After that realization, the game became way more enjoyable and immersive...Of course not every encounter can be treated this way, but when your standing talking to A Large Named Demon, then your team kind of knows that things could go very bad very quickly if not careful...So, yeah there is strategy, there is hack and slash, there is some RP {not that I am in to that, but hey its there if you want it, but no Fru-Fru "My warrior falls in love with this or that NPC crap"}

 

I guess what I am trying to get across is maybe some people start playing like I did. Default movement style through "dungeons". Throw everything you've got at tough encounters, hoping to overcome tough foes. Watch my entire team get whittled down till death screen appears...Re-Load....

 

A:EFTP does not "have" to be played in any one way. In "dungeons" I crawl through, until I determine toughness of denizens. Moving in Combat Mode allows 1 square "scouting" essentially giving my Party the opportunity to RUN!.

 

If an encounter is too tough for my Party all at one time? Wade in to combat, leave one healer OOR, kill a few of their number, and make a strategic withdrawal...Head to Town, recover Mana, and head back to said encounter, and finish off Boss or w/e is left...Much more Better...

 

Thanks to the developer of this game, its really, really a lot of fun, and huge value for what little money I paid for it...they don't make em like this anymore {or rarely}.

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You can sometimes scout without going into combat mode, but it can be tedious to slowly advance a party to avoid getting forced into combat. Sneaking up and retreating to lure the outside monsters away from the pack is a viable strategy to avoid getting overwhelmed.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Beware of the fluffy turtles that live off of sanity. :)

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I can understand the complaint about the skill tree. In the early Exiles/Avernums, you allot a lot of skill points, so there's a lot of variety for first level characters. This is offset by your choices not having much impact later on in the game.

 

Jeff's current design philosophy is to make sure that choices stay relevant throughout the game. I found that, while my characters weren't diverse at all at the beginning of the demo, even by the end of the demo they were pretty customized.

 

But yeah, I prefer the front-loading of choices in games like BoE and BoA, where you'll be making so many different level one parties that you'll want as much diversity as possible.

Seeing as most people's skill point placement is the same for each char I usually make things interesting as it makes for a fun character/group of characters.

 

-If I want to make a brute that deals high damage and with a high chance to hit, I place strength every lvl except every 6th or 7th lvl in endurance. Strength traits, and the works-everything except riposte but you might be able to do that.

 

-If I want to make a barbarian that deals good damage but is very good at taking hits, I place strength every lvl with every 4th in endurance. I also take the endurance traits to make him more tankish. Strength again. This build might be even better with riposte

 

-If I want to make a finesse fighter that deals damage and evades attacks, I place strength every lvl except every 4th or 5th into dexterity. Stay away from riposte for obvious reasons and strength traits and possible parry and the works.

 

The same goes for archers. There is dexterity focused and endurance focused and it all depends on how you want to make them.

 

The thing I like about the new system is that even though there are few choices to choose, you still can make them unique with the stat placement. I dont think this game was the best jeff has made, but it still wasnt a disappointment. I feel like the reason I like Avadon more is because Avadon was sort of made for that system whereas whenever I played Avernum I had hoped that the old system was there just simpler.

 

I believe that every game that is made in the newer system like Avadon will be better in the longrun as that is where it originates. The older games have a lot of freedom to and that is why they are somewhat missed but sometimes change can be good.

 

If anyone thinks this is an uproar, I can imagine Geneforge 1-5 remakes will cause a stir.

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I did not wanted to open a new topic, as someone else had roughly the same opinion as me.

I consider myself an Exile/Avernum fan, and I was happy to see a remake of Avernum. I gave the demo a try and now I am disappointed.

The following rants should be taken as honest criticism (although it will probably hurt some people's feelings ):

 

- The interface has devolved. What is my character's chance to hit? How encumbered is my character? Can I still cast mage spells? There is no easy way to find out...

 

- In battle, when I want to wait for the enemy to close in, I cannot delay a character's action till the end of the turn.

Sure, I can pass the turn. This will spend all my remaining APs, but to what end? Do I get a free attack againts the approaching enemy? No. Do I get a temporary defense bonus? No. This is dumb.

 

- Bows do not have ammunition, yet javelins do. Really? This also means there are no different ammunitions for bows. This does not seem to be well thought out.

 

- Now projectile spells can miss. Why? When I am spending my precious spell energy I want to make it count. Again, this does not seem to be very well thought out.

 

- When I launch a ranged attack, sometimes my character feels the need to rush to forward. No thanks, I do not want to move my mage to the front! Can't this be turned off? Ranged attacks should display the range or at least should have an option to stay in place.

 

- Some battle disciplines do not make sense: I have put all my efforts in developing my melee skills. Why can I suddenly do something only trained marksmen can?

 

- The "junk bag" is a good idea, but please make the interface button at least look like a button.

 

- I can open a door in town, but cannot close it ever again? Dumb.

 

- Searching for secret doors isn't any more about bumping every possible corner. Nice, but it makes the search a little predictable, since I just have check the NE & NW walls. Can there be any more variaties?

 

- The spells: no more "repel spirit" or similar anti-undead/demon spells but 3 or more healing spells?

No more "firewalk", "unlock" and "move mountains" exploration spells. In a game where a large part of the fun comes from exploration, this is a huge letdown.

 

- In general, the spell selection seems to be a bit "dumbed down".

 

- Cannot rest party. Food serves almost no purpose, although still available to buy. Please work on this a little more.

 

- Outdoors: hey, are those tiny critters friendly or hostile? The only way to find out is to meet them. Please, you could do this more sensibly in the previous games.

 

- Cannot cast spells outdoors. Not even healing spells. Avernum must be a really harsh place.

 

I hope these issues get sorted out in next Avernum 2 & 3 remakes (if there will be any). Please excuse my grammar, English is not my native language.

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Welcome to the forums, MageRG. Many of your concerns are shared by others. Let me see if I can offer some perspective on some of your points.

 

- The interface has devolved. What is my character's chance to hit? How encumbered is my character? Can I still cast mage spells? There is no easy way to find out...

To-hit will vary depending on what you're aiming at. The rolling text display at the bottom of the screen shows the chance for each strike when it's made.

The threshold for casting mage spells is determined by the total to-hit penalty of all equipped gear. I believe that it can't add up to more than 5% unless you have the Swordmage trait. You're correct that there's no easy way to see what it is - you have to look at your equipment and add it up yourself.

 

- In battle, when I want to wait for the enemy to close in, I cannot delay a character's action till the end of the turn.

Sure, I can pass the turn. This will spend all my remaining APs, but to what end? Do I get a free attack againts the approaching enemy? No. Do I get a temporary defense bonus? No. This is dumb.

Jeff decided that this was too much of an exploit. You won't find it in any of the newer games. What you can do with the first round is buff.

 

- Bows do not have ammunition, yet javelins do. Really? This also means there are no different ammunitions for bows. This does not seem to be well thought out.

Few people mourn the necessity of acquiring and carrying arrows. Some bows have different effects now. Thrown weapons still suck for the same reasons they always have: they`re scarce and heavy.

 

- Now projectile spells can miss. Why? When I am spending my precious spell energy I want to make it count. Again, this does not seem to be very well thought out.

In fairness, this means that enemy spells can miss you too. Anyway, as you level up, your accuracy will get to be 95% pretty quickly.

 

- When I launch a ranged attack, sometimes my character feels the need to rush to forward. No thanks, I do not want to move my mage to the front! Can't this be turned off? Ranged attacks should display the range or at least should have an option to stay in place.

Yeah, this takes some getting used to. The option to turn it off would be very welcome.

 

- Some battle disciplines do not make sense: I have put all my efforts in developing my melee skills. Why can I suddenly do something only trained marksmen can?

Good point. Archers also get the short end of the stick. But for practical purposes, the most powerful discipline is Adrenaline Rush. Once I have that, it's pretty much the only one I use. So yeah, disciplines could use a little work.

 

- The "junk bag" is a good idea, but please make the interface button at least look like a button.

Eh, okay.

 

- I can open a door in town, but cannot close it ever again? Dumb.

Everyone hates this. It was done because there was so much difficulty with doors in the tablet version of Avadon 1 - it was too easy to accidentally close them when trying to click on another nearby object. But Avadon 2 recently came out with closeable doors, so there's hope.

 

- Searching for secret doors isn't any more about bumping every possible corner. Nice, but it makes the search a little predictable, since I just have check the NE & NW walls. Can there be any more variaties?

I miss wall-bumping, but we're unlikely to get it back, since most movement is by mouse now rather than keyboard.

 

- The spells: no more "repel spirit" or similar anti-undead/demon spells but 3 or more healing spells?

No more "firewalk", "unlock" and "move mountains" exploration spells. In a game where a large part of the fun comes from exploration, this is a huge letdown.

Agreed. The Heal spell is no better than Minor Heal, and I really miss Repel Spirit. Priests get other damage spells now, but in some ways they just feel like slightly worse versions of mage spells, rather than something unique to the class.

 

- In general, the spell selection seems to be a bit "dumbed down".

Or streamlined. At least he brought back different effects with different levels of the spells. In the second trilogy there was very little reason to bother raising a spell level past one.

 

- Cannot rest party. Food serves almost no purpose, although still available to buy. Please work on this a little more.

You do heal walking around in the outdoors, but yeah, I miss resting too. Unfortunately, I don`t think that`s coming back. Food actually is useful for healing at the beginning of the game if you`re playing on higher difficulties, though.

 

- Outdoors: hey, are those tiny critters friendly or hostile? The only way to find out is to meet them. Please, you could do this more sensibly in the previous games.

It would be nice to have the ``look`` function back, but I don`t see it as a huge deal.

 

- Cannot cast spells outdoors. Not even healing spells. Avernum must be a really harsh place.

Healing spells aren`t really necessary outdoors, though, since healing is almost instantaneous.

 

In conclusion, it`s still a really good game, and there`s a fair amount of new content. If you mess around with the demo a bit more, you might get used to the changes.

 

And there`s nothing wrong with your English that I can see.

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- Cannot rest party. Food serves almost no purpose, although still available to buy. Please work on this a little more.

 

A lot of my early experiences with the Exile series consisted of running out of food far from town, or else running out of both food and money and being unable to buy more food even in town, and dying ignominiously. I suspect the de-emphasis of food is one of those changes that genuinely does make the series more accessible to newcomers.

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I did not wanted to open a new topic, as someone else had roughly the same opinion as me.

 

...

 

- Bows do not have ammunition, yet javelins do. Really? This also means there are no different ammunitions for bows. This does not seem to be well thought out.

 

- Some battle disciplines do not make sense: I have put all my efforts in developing my melee skills. Why can I suddenly do something only trained marksmen can?

 

- The spells: no more "repel spirit" or similar anti-undead/demon spells but 3 or more healing spells?

No more "firewalk", "unlock" and "move mountains" exploration spells. In a game where a large part of the fun comes from exploration, this is a huge letdown.

 

- In general, the spell selection seems to be a bit "dumbed down".

 

- Cannot rest party. Food serves almost no purpose, although still available to buy. Please work on this a little more.

 

 

There are 2 mods that solve or change this, Slartibus' remix and mine, you may want to check them out. Slartibus' is better tested I guess, I added some changes (class-based disciplines, no minor heal and worse healing spells, better food, useful for healing at first).

 

 

- When I launch a ranged attack, sometimes my character feels the need to rush to forward. No thanks, I do not want to move my mage to the front! Can't this be turned off? Ranged attacks should display the range or at least should have an option to stay in place.

 

- Searching for secret doors isn't any more about bumping every possible corner. Nice, but it makes the search a little predictable, since I just have check the NE & NW walls. Can there be any more variaties?

 

 

 

Nice points, I'd also add the thing that bothers me the most: in dungeons you can see everything you've discovered, only occasionally you can't see what's around you (Spiral Pit, Erika's Tower...), and this makes also light sources useless. There should be a limited sight range in dungeons, that increases with a light source, in my opinion, like in old Averum.

 

About secret buttons, I think it would be nice if you were able to rotate the isometric view, so that buttons could be placed on all walls and you could still see them.

 

 

- The interface has devolved. What is my character's chance to hit? How encumbered is my character? Can I still cast mage spells? There is no easy way to find out...

 

- In battle, when I want to wait for the enemy to close in, I cannot delay a character's action till the end of the turn.

Sure, I can pass the turn. This will spend all my remaining APs, but to what end? Do I get a free attack againts the approaching enemy? No. Do I get a temporary defense bonus? No. This is dumb.

 

- Now projectile spells can miss. Why? When I am spending my precious spell energy I want to make it count. Again, this does not seem to be very well thought out.

 

- The "junk bag" is a good idea, but please make the interface button at least look like a button.

 

- Outdoors: hey, are those tiny critters friendly or hostile? The only way to find out is to meet them. Please, you could do this more sensibly in the previous games.

 

- Cannot cast spells outdoors. Not even healing spells. Avernum must be a really harsh place.

 

 

These aren't a big deal, imo. Why should you know in advance if critters are hostile before you get near them, anyway?

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Thanks for the quick answer. OK, so I have to debate about a thing or two:

 

Jeff decided that this was too much of an exploit.

Good turn-based tactical RPGs are hard to find. Why spoiling the fun with this?

Almost every game gives you something in return of your unspent APs:

XCOM had reaction fire, Space Hulk has "overwatch" mode, Fallout gave you extra defense, most wargames do something similar ("entrenchment bonus"). D&D-based games had "ready vs. approach" since ages.

I feel something has been lost here.

How about this proposal: passing a turn will give the character "ready" state, which reduces fatique of the next combat discipline use by 1. Or the game could still give some defense bonus. I wonder if this is still an exploit...

 

What you can do with the first round is buff.

I am a fighter specialized in close combat. I want to lure the enemy into a trap, so I am standing my ground at a cautiously selected chokepoint.

I cannot cast any buffing spells (at least not on a decent level). I can try to shoot my bow, but because of my cc-specialization, it will do next to nothing. I can drink a magic potion, or use a scroll, but these things are expensive, and money is very hard to find.

So in the end, I can only hope for not getting hit too hard in the first round. Frustrating? Of course it is. See my proposal for this issue above.

 

I suspect the de-emphasis of food is one of those changes that genuinely does make the series more accessible to newcomers.

Since it no longer serves the original purpose, why not replace food with bandages or consumable healing herbs?

 

Anyway, as you level up, your accuracy will get to be 95% pretty quickly.

Is spell accuracy based on dexterity or on intelligence? Or does it depend on the mage/priest spells skill? The manual should make this clear.

 

Why should you know in advance if critters are hostile before you get near them, anyway?

Well, maybe because my party is not that short sighted? :)

I admit this is not the most important thing missing, but would be a nice feature. The provided the info could be based on the cave lore skill (and how near you need to get to receive that info).

 

Which brings me to the next issue: why isn't the right mouse button used (for looking)? This would be nice to have.

There is also the issue of scrolling the item list (shops) with the mouse wheel. This did not work for me. Will that feature implemented in the future?

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How about this proposal: passing a turn will give the character "ready" state, which reduces fatique of the next combat discipline use by 1.

I like this idea very much!

 

Is spell accuracy based on dexterity or on intelligence? Or does it depend on the mage/priest spells skill? The manual should make this clear.

Mostly intelligence, though spell skill has a small effect. You're right that the manual is woefully lacking in accurate detail; this is a recurring issue with Spiderweb games. What's worse is when the tool-tips lie.

 

There is also the issue of scrolling the item list (shops) with the mouse wheel. This did not work for me. Will that feature implemented in the future?

We can hope.

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What you can do with the first round is buff.

I am a fighter specialized in close combat. I want to lure the enemy into a trap, so I am standing my ground at a cautiously selected chokepoint.

I cannot cast any buffing spells (at least not on a decent level). I can try to shoot my bow, but because of my cc-specialization, it will do next to [no damage].

So in the end, I can only hope for not getting hit too hard in the first round.

Cast Protection/War Blessing (buff) or Flawless Shot (ensnare). The buffs don't need a "decent level"; the bow doesn't need to do damage.

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Cast Protection/War Blessing (buff) or Flawless Shot (ensnare).

Protection/War Blessing needs Priest spell level of 2/3. Which does not seem like much, but early on it is. Flawless shot is nice if I need to keep the opponent away, but:

a) I want to engage in melee.

B) If I want to incapacitate enemies, Daze spell is much better.

c) If I still use Flawless Shot for some reason, I cannot use the more damaging melee disciplines for a while.

d) Stronger enemies tend to resist ensnare.

There should be another option beside the usual fighter/priest for melee build. Whistling a happy tune while waiting for the enemy to approach is not another option.

 

But I can see a lot of people do not seem to be bothered at all by this "first round problem". I will try the Avernum Remix mod, and maybe get used to it.

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Cast Protection/War Blessing (buff) or Flawless Shot (ensnare).

Protection/War Blessing needs Priest spell level of 2/3. Which does not seem like much, but early on it is. Flawless shot is nice if I need to keep the opponent away, but:

 

if you have party then priest and mage should be in lvl 3 on their primary skill when you begin adventuring.

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Oh god, please no. I hate games with rotatable camera. It's so annoying~

 

Not that you would be able to rotate freely, 180° would be enough, so only two possible views (it wouldn't even need different graphics). Anyway it's not that important, maybe it would be annoying, but it wouldn't damage the immersion I think.

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"maybe it would be annoying, but"

 

There is no but after annoying. Annoying features should not be implemented in games, period.

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if you have party then priest and mage should be in lvl 3 on their primary skill when you begin adventuring.

The question is not "what to do with casters" but "what to do with melee fighters" in the first round. Without charging the mob, of course.

I had so many ideas to make this game less flawed.

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I had so many ideas to make this game less flawed.

Not trying to hate on your ideas, but even if your ideas are good (which, I will say, I do agree with some of them.), it is not entirely likely that they will be implemented at all. With Jeff working on new games, and patching the newest released games, less time and effort will be placed into this game, so if it takes a great amount of difficulty and time to implement, even if it could increase the quality of the game, I do think that Jeff would have other things of higher priority on his to-do list. That said, I too would like to put my 2 cents forth on some of the things you have said.

 

- The interface has devolved. What is my character's chance to hit? How encumbered is my character? Can I still cast mage spells? There is no easy way to find out...

It has been a while since I have played this avernum game, and I might have missed patches, but I am doubtful something like this would change. I remember when I first started playing, and distinctly getting frustrated because for a large amount of the early game I would never stop missing anything and when I tried to attack, my % to hit would appear down in that box where actions were recorded, and back in the early version of the game at least, that % was at MOST, it seemed, 50% (that got old pretty fast, let me tell you), but ya, it was always there, and I don't see why it would have been removed. Have you not seen this somehow? Or mistook it for something else? For encumbrance, I do not believe there is a great way to keep track of it that I recall, just keep track of which items the character is holding that cause encumbrance. And like someone said, a max of 5% (increased through traits) will allow mage spell casting. Although, back in the early days of this game, there was a way for encumbered characters to cast mage buffs and summons out of combat, and I don't know if that ever changed.

 

- In battle, when I want to wait for the enemy to close in, I cannot delay a character's action till the end of the turn.

Sure, I can pass the turn. This will spend all my remaining APs, but to what end? Do I get a free attack againts the approaching enemy? No. Do I get a temporary defense bonus? No. This is dumb.

 

What you can do with the first round is buff.

I am a fighter specialized in close combat. I want to lure the enemy into a trap, so I am standing my ground at a cautiously selected chokepoint.

I cannot cast any buffing spells (at least not on a decent level). I can try to shoot my bow, but because of my cc-specialization, it will do next to nothing. I can drink a magic potion, or use a scroll, but these things are expensive, and money is very hard to find.

So in the end, I can only hope for not getting hit too hard in the first round. Frustrating? Of course it is. See my proposal for this issue above.

 

This uh. This sounds like you simply don't have a huge amount invested in spells categories yet, or at least not in buffing spells/summons. You could perhaps look into that. And about potions and scrolls, they are definitely rare and expensive enough that you should be careful when using them, but if you never use them, they will set there until the game ends, never being useful. Sell the ones you won't have much use for for the extra cash to train your characters, and use the others every now and again. And being CC oriented with close combat doesn't seem, in my eyes, like it would restrict you that much. After all, you could use those CCs. Also, even if you don't have much invested in buffs, you likely still have them available, at least some, so its not like they are unusable. And bows, even if they do little damage, still do damage. Don't knock them completely.

 

- Now projectile spells can miss. Why? When I am spending my precious spell energy I want to make it count. Again, this does not seem to be very well thought out.
I would think that it is perhaps more realistic that long range shots don't hit every single time ever. Also, like it was said before, this makes it possible to evade enemy attacks more easily. Eventually, after you hit a certain point, your attacks will really start to miss less and less until you hardly ever get bothered by missing attacks all the time ever again.

 

- When I launch a ranged attack, sometimes my character feels the need to rush to forward. No thanks, I do not want to move my mage to the front! Can't this be turned off? Ranged attacks should display the range or at least should have an option to stay in place.
This is annoying, no way around that. However, again, at a certain point of playing for long enough, you will get a good enough feel for the range of your attacks that this won't be such a huge problem. I'm not saying this makes it completely ok. It would be beautiful if there was a built in way to see the limit of your range so you wouldn't accidentally move around mid battle and put yourself in a bad position. What I am saying is that this is manageable.

 

- I can open a door in town, but cannot close it ever again? Dumb.
The only time this ever bothered me was when I realized it would be harder to steal things. Otherwise, it never really made an impact on the game for me, and I understand the reason why it was taken out because of the tablet versions. This is likely more of a logical protest since you cannot close doors, which normally is a common thing to do. However, this has a negligible effect on gameplay, and truly doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

- Searching for secret doors isn't any more about bumping every possible corner. Nice, but it makes the search a little predictable, since I just have check the NE & NW walls. Can there be any more variaties?

I like this more than searching out little buttons on dark walls almost the same color as the buttons. Also, as I never really got into the early Avernum games, I wasn't used to wall bumping everything, so even though I did check most places, finding secret areas always came to be a pleasant surprise. And besides, sometimes secret areas are really small and can be fit in anywhere, not just specific corners of the map.

 

- Cannot rest party. Food serves almost no purpose, although still available to buy. Please work on this a little more.

 

I suspect the de-emphasis of food is one of those changes that genuinely does make the series more accessible to newcomers.

Since it no longer serves the original purpose, why not replace food with bandages or consumable healing herbs?

 

Food was available in avernum 5 and 6, despite the lack of the same type of map travel. It's simply a part of avernum, and I am fairly glad that I am not required to carry it around or face death (the little amount of it there was in A6 was annoying enough to me). And true it is really only useful in early levels, but I don't see why that should be a reason to rework them or remove them. It doesn't take long for me to not need them, and from then on they are just sellable items for that much more cash. And also, If I am not mistaken, there IS a bandages time out there. About as effective as food though, if I remember correctly, so don't get your hopes up.

 

- Outdoors: hey, are those tiny critters friendly or hostile? The only way to find out is to meet them. Please, you could do this more sensibly in the previous games.
I would think that random world encounters should be just that. Random. Most likely hostile, so really, the common response to approaching them should be the same as approaching just about any unknown in avernum, or really most games. Proceed with caution, and prepare for combat. If it is not combat, then that's just a pleasant surprise.

 

- Cannot cast spells outdoors. Not even healing spells. Avernum must be a really harsh place.

Since you heal when walking, there isn't a HUGE need for healing spells. And simply none at all for any other spells, really. The non combat spells that don't heal buff and summon. What would you do with that out while traveling? I could understand maybe wanting to prepare for a fight, but you usually have a turn to prepare at the beginnings of encounters, since enemies usually start a nice little distance away.

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I would think that it is perhaps more realistic that long range shots don't hit every single time ever. Also, like it was said before, this makes it possible to evade enemy attacks more easily. Eventually, after you hit a certain point, your attacks will really start to miss less and less until you hardly ever get bothered by missing attacks all the time ever again.

Long range shots miss sometimes, it happens, it makes sense. But what really bothers me is AoE spells now being evadable. How the heck does a zombie stumbling slowly towards you manage to dodge a freaking wall of fire? Or an an earthquake?

 

Non-closing doors also irritated my kleptomaniac party, but by far the worst development, both in this and other recent games, is the not being able to see how much health the enemy has. In the second Avernum trilogy and the Geneforge games you could right click an enemy to see how strong it was and how much hp it had left. You could click an ally to see if they could take a hit or three and be impressed by faction leader's 2k plus health.You could click your OWN PARTY members to bask in the wonderful sight of a vast amount of hit points gained via arduous leveling up.

All gone. :(

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????

 

 

*huff puff*

Ok, rant over. Just had to get it off my chest.

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I greatly enjoyed the game on my first playthrough. Then things got really frustrating after subsequent playthroughs. My biggest peeves are:

 

Moving only one square in complete darkness mode. This was never an issue in previous Avernum games because the AP was lower and you made each individual movement in a direction for your character. In this game, though, it's a pain to have to accurately click right next to your character while dodging all of the obstacles in your way (especially in the Final Gauntlet). Like, I'm not saying that it needs to be designed differently map wise, just that moving shouldn't be strenuous.

 

I feel like this game is a "My First Spiderweb Software Game". I sorely miss the lack of customization that was in the previous games. I understand that there's a larger market with random people on Steam picking the game up for the first time, but it still hurts to pick one attribute and two skills every level, with many stats capping really quickly.

 

Power didn't feel exponential, but additive. Lower levels in previous Avernum games felt pretty lackluster, but I greatly enjoyed that aspect. Then, as you started to hit levels 25-30, every single level (which became harder and harder to get) started to exponentially raise your passive power through assassination, health, and mana, all while you rounded out your abilities and unlocked the newer, better abilities. This is definitely friendlier for newer players, but I feel like the characters are now pretty much all the same. There's less replay value to experiment with builds. I know that I, for one, spent more time in the other Avernum games replaying the first sections and trying out different builds than advancing through the stories.

 

Torment, due to the lack of customization, felt like it was much harder than in previous games. It ended up being me waiting in the middle of nowhere for a random encounter to grind on for a lot of sections of my playthrough. I didn't feel like it was challenging, so much as stupid. I really liked doing singleton torment challenges in other games which is a dice roll at best in this game. Especially since you can never hit 100% in a resistance, and the Grah Hoth fight would always end with him hitting me with a 10% Terrify, me running off the pentagram, and dying from the death curse.

 

But I also liked that several annoying things were removed, like moving, invisible, spell casting opponents.

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For what it's worth, the game is very good and here's why. I played the game through with 4 characters first try, 3 characters, solo and now 2 man party. The nonlinear really makes the game go by fast. I haven't played a spiderweb game this good since Geneforge 2.

Im usually a Geneforge fan but I would say Geneforge 2 and Avernum the Pit are my 2 favorite games by jeff. Both those games use different leveling systems but each is awesome.

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Not trying to hate on your ideas, but even if your ideas are good (which, I will say, I do agree with some of them.), it is not entirely likely that they will be implemented at all. With Jeff working on new games, and patching the newest released games, less time and effort will be placed into this game, so if it takes a great amount of difficulty and time to implement, even if it could increase the quality of the game, I do think that Jeff would have other things of higher priority on his to-do list. That said, I too would like to put my 2 cents forth on some of the things you have said.

...

Since you heal when walking, there isn't a HUGE need for healing spells. And simply none at all for any other spells, really. The non combat spells that don't heal buff and summon. What would you do with that out while traveling? I could understand maybe wanting to prepare for a fight, but you usually have a turn to prepare at the beginnings of encounters, since enemies usually start a nice little distance away.

 

I am trying to express these issues not mainly because I think Jeff should fix these immediately. I am bringing up the issues so maybe these are going to be fixed in Avernum 2/3 remake.

I understand that Jeff designs and programs these games practically alone, it is his business decision. He does not need to listen to every crazy rant. But competition is tough, so maybe he considers including some of these nonsense?

 

Some addenda:

I think the concept of no mana regeration while walking outdoors conflicts with the huge outdoor areas of Avernum 2 & 3 where friendly towns are few and far between, or totally absent.

Casting spells outdoors: well, it would be nice sometimes to buff up before going into a fight.

Once I had to fight two enemy groups in rapid succession. The first group wore my party down and the second wiped the party out. Then I realized I can buff up my party rigth after I have beaten the first group and before ending combat. The buffs would remain active for some time even outdoors. So why disabling spellcasting outdoors?

 

But the bigger issue is the Spells/Abilities list does not show the requirements and effects, so I need to open the Mage/Priest spells panel each time if I need to plan ahead when leveling up. This is not possible outdoors.

Likewise, the level up button makes some of the info (including the spells-abilities button) on the character sheet disappear.

 

Another interface desing bug is the dreaded "finish what you are doing first" message. Can't this be avoided? Toggle buttons and auto-cancel could make this message go away.

I am also wondering why Jeff needs to invent a new set of RPG rules instead of polishing one of his former, well tested system.

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I am also wondering why Jeff needs to invent a new set of RPG rules instead of polishing one of his former, well tested system.

 

Probably because Jeff already gets some flak for remaking the same games repeatedly, so he needs to mix things up as much as he can where he can.

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Probably because Jeff already gets some flak for remaking the same games repeatedly, so he needs to mix things up as much as he can where he can.

 

Yeah, I even find myself thinking that myself since this is the second reboot (maybe third if you can count the much needed skin change in exile 1 & 2). He really did change gameplay and item selection changed so much between them that it was like playing a different game entirely, though. My two cents: I might know what's happening in the future reboot of Crystal Souls, but the changes and updates are enough that I'm still super excited to see the reincarnation of my favorite Exile/Avernum episode. Anyone have idea when that might be on the timeline? Edit: Saw someone post elsewhere that the estimate is late 2014,

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