A:EftP - Skills?

[Kreador]

You're never going to please everyone with either system, but more hardcore players are willing to play with unconsciousness, even while they gripe about it, than more casual players are willing to play with expensive resurrection and having to pick up and haul a dead ally's loot and so on. Jeff is looking for the largest player pool possible while staying within the old school, isometric turn based RPG realm.

[Slawbug]

After correcting Lilith, I find I must correct myself as well:

 

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Blademaster only becomes better once (Strength + Melee Weapons) exceeds 33.

Lilith is almost correct. Blademaster is better once (Strength + Melee Weapons + the bonus from your equipped weapon) exceeds 33.

Actually, you get damage dice from Strength, Melee Weapons, your equipped weapon, AND half your level rounded down, AND a base of 1.

 

Say you are at level 10 with 10 Strength, 10 Melee Weapons, and you have equipped a mid-range sword with 8 base damage dice. This gives you a total of 34 damage dice already. As you can see, it's even easier to get to 33 than either one of us stated. Hee hee!

[Kinsume]

I still have no clue what you're talking about lol. Currently my fighters are...

 

Tank (sword+shield)

Level 8

Str : 11 (+1)

9 Melee Weapons

5 Hardiness

2 Parry

 

Fighter (Dual wielder)

Level 8

Str : 12 (+1)

9 Melee Weapons

8 Blade Master

 

I am slightly stuck at the Neph Fort currently. I've killed all but 4 of the "bosses".

 

I can't seem to win versus the Human Mage, the Chieftan, the Blue Mage or the room full of ghouls.

 

Should I go grind until 9 then try coming back? If I recall correctly I can't do the Slith quests yet either because they still hit me like a truck.

 

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Say you are at level 10 with 10 Strength, 10 Melee Weapons, and you have equipped a mid-range sword with 8 base damage dice. This gives you a total of 34 damage dice already. As you can see, it's even easier to get to 33 than either one of us stated. Hee hee!

Of course, Blademaster is capped at 10 while Melee Weapons isn't, so don't go overboard on raising Blademaster at the expense of Melee.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

That isn't what I'm suggesting at all, someone else suggested that.

Since it doesn't seem to be clear: I didn't "suggest" permadeath in earnest so much as offer it as a sarcastic reductio ad absurdum of the notion that torment difficulty should be made as inconvenient and 'hardcore' as possible. I'll skip the nuance and get straight to the meat of my point: I think that idea is dumb. I think making it that way on hard and torment is an even dumber idea.

Personally, I like to play challenging combat encounters, but I don't like huge negative consequences for losing. I don't like losing an hour of gameplay, or having to trudge back to town and shell out a bunch of gold every time some fireball or sword hit does 34 damage instead of 32. I usually play SW games on hard the first time, and torment from then on. If Jeff implemented the idea as you suggest it, I would write him to complain. I doubt I would be the only one to do so. It wouldn't ruin the game for me, but I'd consider it a substantial negative.

I have nothing against adding in 'old school' death mechanics, but I have a strong objection to coupling them to monster stats. I wouldn't mind them as an extra difficulty option, like the one in Grimrock that turns off the automap. I would probably never turn them on, but I recognize that I am not every player.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Darth RuPaula

Personally, I like to play challenging combat encounters, but I don't like huge negative consequences for losing. I don't like losing an hour of gameplay, or having to trudge back to town and shell out a bunch of gold every time some fireball or sword hit does 34 damage instead of 32.

Again it is personal preference, the point stands that the changes that are being made are done so to baby people and make the game easier. Previous settings with the original game were much less forgiving.

[Lilith]

Drop the attitude, Kinsume. The whole ~players these days are being babied~ shtick is pretty disrespectful to the community.

[Kinsume]

It's not an attitude at all, merely an observation. Not just with this game, but with quite a few being released. Games are being marketed towards the casual player, which of course is great for sales but takes away from people who want to do more than just roll over everything in a game.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Kinsume: Let's examine two phrases:

 

1. Designers of modern games are making games easier.

 

2. Designers of modern games are trying to baby players.

 

Do you notice any difference of tone and emphasis in these two statements? Because I do. Both of these statements are observations, as you say, and they can be true or false, but only one is insulting. You have repeatedly used insulting and condescending language to describe those with whom you disagree. I think this is the "attitude" Lilith mentioned.

[Kinsume]

I don't know what you tell you. The truth hurts? I guess? Personally I don't see how the comment is insulting. Both statements say the same thing with different words. So for a person to be offended by one of them and not the other is just ignorance.

 

In the end as the saying goes, "Opinions are like ********, everyone has one and they all stink."

 

Even if nothing is changed, the game is still good and I'll still be playing it. However, like everyone else, I have the right to voice my opinion on what should/shouldn't be changed.

[Lilith]

Kinsume, now you're implying that people who don't like your tone are ignorant? Seriously? Please read the Code of Conduct, specifically the parts about not using obscene language and not belittling other members. Consider this a formal warning: learn to be polite or find some place else to post.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Kimitsu, now you're implying that people who don't like your tone are ignorant?

I'm assuming you mean me, and no that isn't what I was implying at all. Actually I can't even figure out how you came to that conclusion...

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Both statements say the same thing with different words. So for a person to be offended by one of them and not the other is just ignorance.

This was my statement. It in no way, shape or form had anything to do with my tone. While some people may prefer different wording, to honestly say you're offended by something because it is said a certain way is just silly. Regardless of how it is being said, what the sentence is implying is still the same.

As for the swear. Honestly, I was going to star it out myself, but it ruined the quote. Alls well though.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Kinsume: Regarding the aforementioned two statements, no they're not. I'm sorry if you don't grasp this, but many, probably most people would see these statements as substantively different. I'm not sure if this is because of your poor or idiosyncratic grasp of English idioms, or if you're just very stuck on a certain perspective. The word "easy" isn't particularly weighted. It can connote either a pleasant mellowness, or a lazy good for nothing character. "Babying" someone, in this context, is almost exclusively negative, suggesting laziness, immaturity, and lack of intellectual and moral strength. You're suggesting that anyone who doesn't want to face the same obstacles you do in this game (which, as various have pointed out, is supposed to be fun) are weak and unworthy. I don't see how you can expect people to take that as a simple, unfreighted statement of fact.

[Lilith]

Sorry about getting your name wrong, but my point stands: how you say something does matter, not just the content of what you say. There are rules on this forum about maintaining a civil tone and you're expected to follow them, just like everyone else is.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture

@Kinsume: Regarding the aforementioned two statements, no they're not. I'm sorry if you don't grasp this, but many, probably most people would see these statements as substantively different.

Until you can show me statistics that say otherwise, this is merely a debate about your opinion versus my own. I'm sure you could find people to back your opinion, as I could find people to back mine. As such, there is no right or wrong so really the topic is becoming increasingly pointless.

Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture

I'm not sure if this is because of your poor or idiosyncratic grasp of English idioms, or if you're just very stuck on a certain perspective.

It's just my perspective, there is no purpose in beating around the bush with stuff. The simplest way to express ones thoughts on a subject is to state them as you're thinking them. Too many people act fake and try to sugar coat things. And again, I'm not saying this is the perspective everyone should have, it's just the one I have.

Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture

The word "easy" isn't particularly weighted. It can connote either a pleasant mellowness, or a lazy good for nothing character.

Use the word "easy" when describing a woman and see the reaction you get from her. The context of just about any word can be changed to be positive or negative. My use of the word "babying" was indeed not meant to be positive. The word reflected my perspective on the changes that were made, you may or may not agree with them however that doesn't change the fact that it's my perspective.

If you're truly offended by something that miniscule then that's just funny to me, honestly. However I get the feeling you really don't care and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture

You're suggesting that anyone who doesn't want to face the same obstacles you do in this game (which, as various have pointed out, is supposed to be fun) are weak and unworthy.

Not even close. You know what they say about assumptions...

[Slawbug]

Okay, I am locking this topic. I will address a few points about respect first though.

 

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Until you can show me statistics that say otherwise, this is merely a debate about your opinion versus my own. I'm sure you could find people to back your opinion, as I could find people to back mine. As such, there is no right or wrong so really the topic is becoming increasingly pointless.

 

These forums have been around for almost 12 years now. "Respect" is based on the accepted community standard that has been built up over time. These days, that standard of respect is pretty natural for most people who come here. Regardless, we're not about to run a research study every time someone says something potentially rude.

 

Kinsume, your original comment was really not a big deal, which is why Lilith didn't give you a warning for it. "Drop the attitude" may not have been the gentlest way to give you feedback about it, either -- I thought you were an advocate of not babying people, though?

 

The exact meaning that people get from words depends on a lot of things, but we don't need a scholarly analysis to know that "babying people" is pejorative, and in no way implies the exact same thing as "making games easier." There is large overlap in what they imply, but they are not identical. You eventually admit that your use of "babying" was not meant to be positive. That seems to contradict your previous statement that people are "ignorant" if they have a different reaction to "babying" than to the other phrasing.

 

So, I think there is nothing left to argue about here. If you want to call people ignorant babies this is the wrong place for that, but I sincerely hope you choose to stay as I have enjoyed reading your posts about strategy in these games.